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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:17:00 -
[1]
A few weeks ago Curzon Dax declared he was a scammer. He had apparently scammed 230 bm off of MD. He was indirectly aided in this endeavour by other members of MD who had known him for ages. Curzon Dax was labeled ôa stand up guyö, and although he had never run a public investment and offered no audit or collateral, he succeeded.
Today I notice that known scammers are supported by various prominent members of MD. In particular, the offerings of Riethe and YGR are supported by a range of very wellknown citizens.
I also notice that the SCC-lounge, ôthe chatroom for MDersö, is hosting known scammers that discuss scam methods on there without being kicked. This makes me want to vomit.
I am just one citizen of MD, but FWIW I will state my opinion on all this. 1) Supporting and investing in known scammers is despicable and not healthy for the development of MD. By association, people that indulge in this are unworthy of the trust of the community. 2) It follows from this that the era of the old MD ôeliteö are over. We have to move on from a environment where the ôinformed opinionö and clever maneuverings of a few mastodonts on MD means that a certain offering lives or dies. More democratic and transparent ways of judging offerings must come to prominence.
A quote from RietheÆs bond offer thread: ôRiethe, if Cosmoray bows under the pressure of the holier-than-thous I will secure the bond for you.ö
ThatÆs all. Make your stand.
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MD stock market / Audits 001 / MD investees |
Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:35:00 -
[2]
Scamming is so prolific and not merely without consequence but actually revered.
I'm frankly surprised there is any form of investment market in this game at all.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:36:00 -
[3]
On behalf of the MD Elite Gods.
We apologize.
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Jacqueline Harrien
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:37:00 -
[4]
Wow, I wasn't expecting delicious tears in MD as well today!
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Hera Ominae
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cista2 A few weeks ago Curzon Dax declared he was a scammer. He had apparently scammed 230 bm off of MD. He was indirectly aided in this endeavour by other members of MD who had known him for ages. Curzon Dax was labeled ôa stand up guyö, and although he had never run a public investment and offered no audit or collateral, he succeeded.
Today I notice that known scammers are supported by various prominent members of MD. In particular, the offerings of Riethe and YGR are supported by a range of very wellknown citizens.
I also notice that the SCC-lounge, ôthe chatroom for MDersö, is hosting known scammers that discuss scam methods on there without being kicked. This makes me want to vomit.
I am just one citizen of MD, but FWIW I will state my opinion on all this. 1) Supporting and investing in known scammers is despicable and not healthy for the development of MD. By association, people that indulge in this are unworthy of the trust of the community. 2) It follows from this that the era of the old MD ôeliteö are over. We have to move on from a environment where the ôinformed opinionö and clever maneuverings of a few mastodonts on MD means that a certain offering lives or dies. More democratic and transparent ways of judging offerings must come to prominence.
A quote from RietheÆs bond offer thread: ôRiethe, if Cosmoray bows under the pressure of the holier-than-thous I will secure the bond for you.ö
ThatÆs all. Make your stand.
1st... No **** sherlock?
2nd... Why you have thought that EVE would be any different from real world markets?
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:48:00 -
[6]
MD is dying.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:02:00 -
[7]
The Times, They Are a-Changin'
As for the rest, to the point, I can only go :shrug: and keep out of it...
_
We are recruiting | Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper |
RAW23
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:06:00 -
[8]
I don't have a problem socialising with scammers on a personal level (as such I have no problem talking to them in SCC and actually enjoy their company (well, some at least)). This is, after all, a game in which scamming is a legitimate career path.
However, I'm not willing to associate with them on a business level. And so far as MD is a business community (I realise that it is not entirely) that has implicit social rules (a social contract, if you like) it is ridiculous seeing the same people calling SCAM in one thread, as if that is a bad thing, and then supporting scammers in another.
In my opinion, the notion of "community" is a virtual and elective one anyway. There is no thing-in-the-world that physicists can label a "community". You form relationships on different levels with different people according to your wishes. For me, those people that form the business community of which I consider myself a member are those who deal honestly - who do not lie or steal in their business relationships, or actively seek to profit from other peoples' lies or thefts. These people are entitled, under the implicit social contract, to the same standard of behaviour from me. I pass no moral judgement on those who choose to put themselves outside this community. I appreciate that this can be a lot of fun and don't think it necessarily makes them bad people. But it does mean they are outside the social organisation I have elected to be a member of. And, as such, they are not protected by the social contract that governs that virtual community. This is not an objective fact - it is merely a decision I make as an individual.
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ray McCormack MD is dying.
Netcraft confirms it.å á á
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Cista2
2) It follows from this that the era of the old MD ôeliteö are over. We have to move on from a environment where the ôinformed opinionö and clever maneuverings of a few mastodonts on MD means that a certain offering lives or dies. More democratic and transparent ways of judging offerings must come to prominence.
I've been kicking around here for a year, give or take.
People have been saying that the entire time, all that's happened is who people consider to be the elite has cycled out a few people and cycled in a few more.
Does anyone remember when the meme of the moment was that the "New SCC Crew" was just rep circling themselves? Ji Sama, VV etc, were all auditing and vouching for one another?
It worked I guess.
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Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:18:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Magnu Stormhawk on 07/01/2010 15:21:41 Come writers and critics Who prophesize with your pen And keep your eyes wide The chance won't come again And don't speak too soon For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. For the loser now Will be later to win For the times they are a-changin'
Edit: Meh, didnt spot i was beaten by Mr T
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Carine Parnasse
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:21:00 -
[12]
Quote: 2) It follows from this that the era of the old MD ôeliteö are over. We have to move on from a environment where the ôinformed opinionö and clever maneuverings of a few mastodonts on MD means that a certain offering lives or dies. More democratic and transparent ways of judging offerings must come to prominence.
You have every tool necessary already. If the offering is well thought out, secured, audited and run by someone you trust, then invest. If it isn't then don't. If you want to receive public funds meet the above criteria.
Where does democracy come into it? Why should anyone care what the 'MD elite' thinks? If you feel a shadowy cartel are supporting/associating with scammers, why does that affect your ability to judge offerings on their own merits?
In short, MD is a community, but one built around investment, and in a free market system there is no need for consensus.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:06:00 -
[13]
Quote:
VV etc, were all auditing and vouching for one another?
Who "one another" did I audit or vouch for? I can only recall about Brock Nelson (and even then, the one "tie" would be that he knew Caleb, whom I had 2 oh-so-many sessions to learn pointers about auditing), and it was one of the most thorough audits I ever made, including verifying actual protection of his POS and personal inspection of it.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
VV etc, were all auditing and vouching for one another?
Who "one another" did I audit or vouch for?
He said VV etc.
Cista, this conversation is already taking place in the other thread where it started....
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Carine Parnasse You have every tool necessary already. If the offering is well thought out, secured, audited and run by someone you trust, then invest... In short, MD is a community, but one built around investment, and in a free market system there is no need for consensus.
It's a community, but it is also a battlefield. The battle takes place on every bond that is offered.
We have the tools as you say, but I see many investment opportunities fade away because the new investees are unceremoniously killed of by self-established MD gurus. Meanwhile, I see Curzon Dax, Riethe and YGR being carried through by a wave of cameraderie. The latter I couldn't care less about, but the former is bad for my wallet. There are so few new investments popping up these days that I am not going to just stand and watch bullies scare them off.
Cameraderie and "informed" opinions on offerings are going to have to take a backseat from now on.
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MD stock market / Audits 001 / MD investees |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cista2 and watch bullies scare them off.
Cameraderie and "informed" opinions on offerings are going to have to take a backseat from now on.
To be labeled bullies they'd have to actually do some bullying. Like, threats of crushing their business with their wallets, war decs, etc.
Bringing up information on the character, pointing out flaws in the business plan, etc. isn't bullying. It's providing an informed opinion. Those posting the offerings can take their advice and improve, or get mad and leave.
I went through the same thing on my first bond. Poor idea, bad plan, bad presentation. I got ostracized in front of the community, and for good reason. But I took the advice, got smarter, and made ISK for myself and investors.
Camaraderie and "informed" opinions on offerings can be good, as long as each investor thinks for himself and doesn't invest just because someone else with a good name also thought it was a good idea.
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
VV etc, were all auditing and vouching for one another?
Who "one another" did I audit or vouch for? I can only recall about Brock Nelson (and even then, the one "tie" would be that he knew Caleb, whom I had 2 oh-so-many sessions to learn pointers about auditing), and it was one of the most thorough audits I ever made, including verifying actual protection of his POS and personal inspection of it.
I believe it was Brock's IPO where it really all came to a rolling boil.
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Dzil
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.01.07 17:48:00 -
[18]
If I don't get any replies back by end of day from outstanding evemails I have for a corp, I'm founding MD Elite or something close to it. Suggestions on the symbol welcome, and unfortunately there's nothing that looks like a waffle.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.07 17:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dzil If I don't get any replies back by end of day from outstanding evemails I have for a corp, I'm founding MD Elite or something close to it. Suggestions on the symbol welcome, and unfortunately there's nothing that looks like a waffle.
Call it "The Bernie Madoff School of Business".
You'll be in good company.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2010.01.07 18:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T The Times, They Are a-Changin'
One of the best songs ever
Free jumpclone service: Thread|Expanded again! |
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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2010.01.07 18:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cista2 The era of the old MD ôeliteö is over.
There never was an elite - just a few oldies who posted a bit more than others. Some of them did/do have an exaggerated opinion of themselves - like the arrogant git who dismissed a very good post from a newbie because he was a "nobody".
Some people, newbies or oldies, contribute, some do not - that¦s it. The rest is just fluff.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Varo Jan Some people, newbies or oldies, contribute, some do not - that¦s it. The rest is just fluff.
So says an insignificant newB1e!
Just kidding. Couldn't pass it up.
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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Capitalist Swineherder
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:04:00 -
[23]
I'm still just amazed by the discrepancy between seemingly intelligent posts on the MD forum and the inability to figure out that you shouldn't trust anybody with your isk, regardless of how smart they sound or who else trusts them.
I've only been around these forums for a year, rarely post, and even I have figured it out no investment within Eve gives an adequate return when you factor in risks. Keep it in your wallet.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Capitalist Swineherder I'm still just amazed by the discrepancy between seemingly intelligent posts on the MD forum and the inability to figure out that you shouldn't trust anybody with your isk, regardless of how smart they sound or who else trusts them.
I've only been around these forums for a year, rarely post, and even I have figured it out no investment within Eve gives an adequate return when you factor in risks. Keep it in your wallet.
1) Secondary market is fun for some people.
2) Some people have craploads of ISK sitting in their wallets, apparently doing nothing.
3) Some people, despite losing ISK in some scams, overall make profit through the legitimate offerings.
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cista2 A few weeks ago Curzon Dax declared he was a scammer. He had apparently scammed 230 bm off of MD. He was indirectly aided in this endeavour by other members of MD who had known him for ages. Curzon Dax was labeled ôa stand up guyö, and although he had never run a public investment and offered no audit or collateral, he succeeded.
Today I notice that known scammers are supported by various prominent members of MD. In particular, the offerings of Riethe and YGR are supported by a range of very wellknown citizens.
I also notice that the SCC-lounge, ôthe chatroom for MDersö, is hosting known scammers that discuss scam methods on there without being kicked. This makes me want to vomit.
I am just one citizen of MD, but FWIW I will state my opinion on all this. 1) Supporting and investing in known scammers is despicable and not healthy for the development of MD. By association, people that indulge in this are unworthy of the trust of the community. 2) It follows from this that the era of the old MD ôeliteö are over. We have to move on from a environment where the ôinformed opinionö and clever maneuverings of a few mastodonts on MD means that a certain offering lives or dies. More democratic and transparent ways of judging offerings must come to prominence.
A quote from RietheÆs bond offer thread: ôRiethe, if Cosmoray bows under the pressure of the holier-than-thous I will secure the bond for you.ö
ThatÆs all. Make your stand.
Lets look at it this way:
If we were to make a "No discussion of scamming, and please don't talk to scammers"-rule in the lounge, what would happen? People would move elsewhere. We would not be able to see who interacts with known scammers.
It's like drugs. You can't regulate them, trying to just causes violence and you won't be able to "watch" it.
By allowing people to communicate with scammers, people can watch who is "too" friendly towards thosepeople, and make a decision on their own.
Also, you can't regulate communication at all. If generic scammer x wanted to chat in the SCC, he would just have to create another alt and he could go at it.
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Vahdrok Nyrus
OX Syndicate Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:43:00 -
[26]
Am I doing it right? -----------------------------
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Capitalist Swineherder
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
1) Secondary market is fun for some people.
That's the only valid reason to be investing in a bond or IPO.
#2 and #3 only become a concern if somebody really can't be asked to find something to do with their isk. I'd guess the due diligence required prior to investing could be better spent finding something trading near the bottom of its price range and just dumping your isk there. The returns should typically be better and its practically impossible to lose the entire investment like you would in a scam.
I can't fault people for investing because they thinks it fun. We blow ISK all over the place because its fun. Its the point of the game after all.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:48:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Capitalist Swineherder
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
1) Secondary market is fun for some people.
That's the only valid reason to be investing in a bond or IPO.
#2 and #3 only become a concern if somebody really can't be asked to find something to do with their isk. I'd guess the due diligence required prior to investing could be better spent finding something trading near the bottom of its price range and just dumping your isk there. The returns should typically be better and its practically impossible to lose the entire investment like you would in a scam.
I can't fault people for investing because they thinks it fun. We blow ISK all over the place because its fun. Its the point of the game after all.
The limiting factor there might be time. I can post on the forums while my code is "compiling" at work, for example. So I can't be in-game finding something else to trade.
Also, you might be underestimating how much extra ISK is really out there in people's wallets. I can see that eventually the limit becomes time and logistics.
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:51:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Varo Jan on 07/01/2010 19:52:46
Originally by: Capitalist Swineherder I'm still just amazed by the discrepancy between seemingly intelligent posts on the MD forum and the inability to figure out that you shouldn't trust anybody with your isk, regardless of how smart they sound or who else trusts them.
I've only been around these forums for a year, rarely post, and even I have figured it out no investment within Eve gives an adequate return when you factor in risks. Keep it in your wallet.
I¦m still amazed at the press scammers get. My personal view is that they are a minority. This may be an MMORPG, but there is naff all RP in MD, so people are playing themselves - and premeditated theft does not come naturally to most.
I¦m more amazed at the inability of people to assess other risks - such as basic competence, one man bands, the probability of an old player getting bored and leaving, or the uselessness of rep.
Typo edit.
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.07 20:18:00 -
[30]
Yeah I did say that Curzon was a stand up guy, and that was from evidence of a long relationship with him. The people he SCAMMED were in the same boat as me, people who had trusted him previously.
Now if I state the words "stand up guy" does that mean everyone should rush to invest, or that I am personally vouching for someone. No, make up your own minds.
Secondly associating with SCAMMERS in SCC. I am always logged on to SCC and the discussions aren't always business. Over the last few nights quite a few of us (including Reithe) were discussing where we were from, where we have lived, married/kids, etc... good places to snowboard in the US. General adult life BS. I didn't realise this was a crime. Lets ban all known scammers from a social channel!!FFS
Thirdly, securing a bond for a previous SCAMMER is business. It's not personal, and if the conditions are right people won't lose money because I am insuring it under certain conditions.
Why do you care who I/we invest in (YGR). Given me a laugh in the past and hopefully will do so. I should go back to investing with faceless ALTS, its easier on the brain.
For those people who think I am or AM NOT some sort of MD elite (never liked the word) I am not really bothered. I have always enjoyed the business side of the game and RP that if you like. The only thing I care about is having my successful business, keeping my word neither of which has been betrayed in more than 2 years here, and over 18 months of dividend payments.
Continued Business success and meeting obligations are still the best currency on MD.
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