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Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
362
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Posted - 2012.06.23 06:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.
They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.
They did it really really well.
If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.
But it wasn't
That's noones' fault but CCP.
Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.
The economy will recover itself in time.
But the sandbox will take far longer to recover if CCP acts too harshly in their response.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
402
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Posted - 2012.06.23 06:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
The goonies tears are false, they are not going to be even remotely bankrupt once CCP is done. I seriously doubt Goonies will even notice the loss in funds. EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Rainbow Rogue
Unicorn Zero
1
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Posted - 2012.06.23 06:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1 to the OP, could'nt of said it better myself. |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
163
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Posted - 2012.06.23 07:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much....
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1111
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:The goonies tears are false, they are not going to be even remotely bankrupt once CCP is done. I seriously doubt Goonies will even notice the loss in funds. Considering it was five people and no one else had much idea of what was happening, I should hope so.
Unless they, you know, just ban everyone on the reccomendation of random forum alt #328352 Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
942
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much....
Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit.
Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
197
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... How exactly is it an exploit? Unless having alts and the ability to perform simple sums is an exploit these days? There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
139
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Me thinks you don't actually understand what the term "exploit" means. Utilizing game mechanics that are not functioning as intended by the game designers to gain an advantage is an exploit. Hell, its the very definition of one.
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
529
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP is lashing out like an angry child because some of their players caused them embarrassment by exposing shoddy game design. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Indo Nira
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
3
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:CCP is lashing out like an angry child because some of their players caused them embarrassment by exposing shoddy game design.
or it's just because the same people, over, and over, and over again... are being dicks. noone gives you credit for 'discovering' this bug. if you knew from the very start that the design of that certain mechanic was flawed, it's just like saying, 'hey we knew what you made was broken, and just because what you made was broken from the very start, that means we can abuse it, cause it's not our fault'
if you even think a game mechanic is broken, you petition it, and see if it's intended to be that way or not. but no.. we're just gonna be dicks and gloat about it then say hey, it's not our fault we're dicks, it's your's |
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
197
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Me thinks you don't actually understand what the term "exploit" means. Utilizing game mechanics that are not functioning as intended by the game designers to gain an advantage is an exploit. Hell, its the very definition of one.
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy. How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
You can't petition to find out the answer, I've tried that before with seemingly dodgy game mechanics and received contradictory responses from different GM's There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
49
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Me thinks you don't actually understand what the term "exploit" means. Utilizing game mechanics that are not functioning as intended by the game designers to gain an advantage is an exploit. Hell, its the very definition of one.
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy.
Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it? |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
70
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
OP chooses to post a silly and obvious thread over his character ever being taken serious again. Also, the link in his sig about "don't whine, HTFU and adapt" makes this all hilarious. Amat victoria curam. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
48
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'll try and help.
Ask yourself this: Why did CCP add Faction Wars in the first place? From what I read, CCP wanted Faction Wars to be a place where you could do more casual PVP, a place where newer players could perhaps start their PVP life. I suppose sorta like RVB. So, it wasn't supposed to be a place to earn untold trillion of iskies. But, if you did well in Faction Wars, you'd be more rewarded than if you didn't do well, perhaps enough to keep funding your PVP without having to jump into a PVE ship. To me, that sounds pretty good. Lower risk because your losses can be covered to a degree, and lots of reds to shoot.
The mechanic of "one faction player blows up opposing faction player ship, that faction player receives juicy LP in proportion to the estimated ISK value, including cargo items" makes sense when you think of two cruisers locking horns in epic fighting on a gate. The more isk you spent on your fittings, the better your odds of killing someone, but it also might make you harder to kill thus giving a bit more reward for killing that guy.
All this to me sounds reasonable.
But then, the some Goons show up to the party. "Who invited these guys?!" They join all sides with alts and drive freighter's filled to the rim with ore/items into their own waiting alts on the opposing side and reap ungodly amounts of LP's from the system. Then, using these ill gotten LP's, muck up the whole works with upgrading systems and the like, destroying the whole premise of Faction Wars and system control. They send the whole thing into disarray, much to the chagrin of everyone involved in Faction Wars. Not all of course as some of them were earning a bit more than they probably expected.
This was NOT the intent of the Faction Wars loyalty reward system. You can argue that the devs should have made sure this couldn't happen, but it can also be argued that anyone abusing this aspect of the reward system are breaking the EULA.
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Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
48
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
And for the record, I don't think Faction Wars is really a "Sandbox" thing. It's a PVE/PVP type of monster.
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Dasola
Rookies Empire Rookie Empire
33
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Reminds me of time when CCP introduced PI to game and forgot to remove npc sell orders of postructures. Resulting some playies buying those sayd structures refining them and building something better and makeing huge profits in process.. CCP-¦s fix, turn all pos structure materials as extra materials, and we suffer that fix even today, even if all npc orders are long gone by now.
I would say sloppy gamedesign is norm in ccp. Cook something up, if players figure out how to bend it. fix it then after mandatory, OMG exploit yelling...
How about you people in ccp really start working instead. have one team code things, other team trying to figure how to exploit it and do it all before official release to live gameworld. Even better, reward the exploit team everythime they figure out how to bend it. if they dont, well that months reward goes to coders team.
Your running MMO in single shard gameworld cluster. thats 40.000+ people online in that single shard at peak times. Your software must be as secure as bossible, as unbendable by players as bossible. I can understand you donk know how to harden your code since devs dont really play this game, but you could always hire bending team from player base. Heck hire people that give you most bugreports/exploit notifications... banders after all dont need access to source code, they work from client side... Thats what players do as well... [Insert something funny or smart here] |
hedge betts Shiyurida
State Protectorate Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
Cup the balls, and work the shaft |
Constable Chang
1
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
In an MMO something is an exploit if the people who make the game say it is. Its really that simple. Anything can be an exploit. Once upon a time JETCAN MINING was an exploit, thats how trivial it can be. You never know what they will decide is an exploit next and there really is no way to predict it; it can be completely unjustified and completely unreasonable. But its THEIR (CCPs) game so they get to call 'exploit' whenever they want on whatever they want. They are like capricious deities of classical mythology; all powerful and you just hope they don't notice you.
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Dasola
Rookies Empire Rookie Empire
33
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Constable Chang wrote:Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you. In an MMO something is an exploit if the people who make the game say it is. Its really that simple. Anything can be an exploit. Once upon a time JETCAN MINING was an exploit, thats how trivial it can be. You never know what they will decide is an exploit next and there really is no way to predict it; it can be completely unjustified and completely unreasonable. But its THEIR (CCPs) game so they get to call 'exploit' whenever they want on whatever they want. They are like capricious deities of classical mythology; all powerful and you just hope they don't notice you.
very true, but were all consumers here, So we have right to expect that released game mechanic is working as intended. If its not, then why the hell is it on Live gameworld in firstplace? maybe ccp devs should actually start thinking if we do feature X, how will players try to exploit it and how can that lead to unintended results. As in how can we really prevent players from taking that feature mechanic and useing it in way we did not intended... Yelling wolf after the sheep herd is eaten by wolf, is not very good security.
I would rather take ironhardened game mechanics when its ready, instead of marketing department desiding when something must be ready to release. Market clowns make decision we get these halfbaked features that newer gets really finished since marketing clows comes up something new, before coders have time to finish it. [Insert something funny or smart here] |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention.
Delen Ormand wrote:Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it?
Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.- |
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EvEa Deva
State War Academy Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Goons will get a wee wee slap im sure, would suck if they all rage quit |
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
115
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Xython wrote:
Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit.
Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
It is rather simple: using an oversight or error in coding to gain an unfair advantage is an exploit.
Is it an oversight or error in coding? Yes. Was an advantage gained? Yes. Was the advantage unfair? Yes.
Was it an exploit? Yes
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
197
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention. Oh please I could name a dozen things that are valid tactics yet equally an 'obvious exploit'
CCP pick and choose all the time There should be a rather awesome pic here |
NickyYo
StarHug Russian International Allegiance
176
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Goons knew what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We will now post this now the exploit has been fixed".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! I have released a basic EVE Lottery Framework for you all you use to make lottery sites |
Serptimis
The Fiction Factory Blue Nation
19
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding |
NickyYo
StarHug Russian International Allegiance
176
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding
Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that. I have released a basic EVE Lottery Framework for you all you use to make lottery sites |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
49
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.
What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way.... in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them |
Serptimis
The Fiction Factory Blue Nation
19
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding. Didnt CCP change FW to reward LP on value of kills made? And also designed the new valuation of items based on the value of average prices over 90 days. Wasnt that what these guys used? It may have been an error to design the game that way, but it was itentional |
NickyYo
StarHug Russian International Allegiance
176
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding. What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way.... in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them
This is not RealLife and people who do it in real life markets get sent to prison when they get caught.
This is a computer game and goons broke the terms and conditions, thus damages CCP's reputation product and causing embarrassment. Goons thought they were godly doing this showing off posting about it, NOW CCP punish.
MOoore tears please, eve will be better without them. I have released a basic EVE Lottery Framework for you all you use to make lottery sites |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
203
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:...That's noones' fault but CCP... So Goons made sure to notify GM's/Dev's of the massive loophole prior to molesting it?
The description I read of the sequence said specifically that the Bwains! behind it intentionally avoided testing/doing it on SiSi before TQ .. smells to me like the people involved knowing full well that their plan would be borderline
The market will not need to adjust as it concerns a limited number of items, biggest problem is that the Minmatar militia grunts will never be able to make any sort of profit from LP as any item they can/will buy will be at rock bottom for ages due to the Goon stockpiles.
Large portion of blame is on CCP though, anyone with half a brain and gaming knowledge knows that a x4 modifier is huge .. so huge that most singleplayer games avoid modifiers of that magnitude entirely as it is nigh impossible to balance .. and Eve is a MMO ...
As for punishment .. 'meh'. Remove all ill-gotten items/LP/ISK, give back all minerals/ships used to catalyse the process and slap wrist (ie. roll-back in similar way as was done partially after tower exploit).
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