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Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
37
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:21:00 -
[301] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:@Antisocial Malkavian
Now paste the comments where the word "bug" comes before "exploit" and that's the ones where CCP says Goons broke the rules. And yeah, they have the right to "punish". According to the EULA they can ban any account for any reason or no reason at all, but I dont believe those CCP'ers are such cowboys.
Sorry I cound't open the youtube link, I'm behind a firewall here. Will open it later.
use the tor browser addon, might be slow but gets round quite a few things :)
https://www.torproject.org/index.html.en |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
207
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:22:00 -
[302] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:They made them look like fools, when they could have just as easily informed them of the exploit with supporting evidence ( the uber nerd spreadsheet ) to back up the claims.
Exactly. And this is what the EULA Rules say must be done, and it was just exactly what was NOT done until much later and after exploitation.
That just does not seem to get through the thick skuls of the Goons, although most are under 20 yrs old and are obviously a part of the "I'm Uber-Entitled to everything in Life and will Lawyer my Way to Being Right" Generation.
My 21 year old neice astounds me with her claims to what she is entitled to. It's the way of the world now apparently. Does not make it right though, at all. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Lord Zim
943
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:24:00 -
[303] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:They are not being punished. CCP just made a mistake when fixing the mess from the FW design flaw. Some datacores from Goonswarm assets that will probably be given back if they are telling the truth. the datacores were part of it lying Goons??? NO WAI I'm going to just pretend Quote: that some datacores were bought normally, prior to the FW debacle. Cause unless you were there you dont know and the guys Im quoting WERE there OK, sure, don't believe me, then. It matters little to me. |
Lord Zim
943
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:25:00 -
[304] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:They made them look like fools, when they could have just as easily informed them of the exploit with supporting evidence ( the uber nerd spreadsheet ) to back up the claims. Exactly. And this is what the EULA Rules say must be done, and it was just exactly what was NOT done until much later and after exploitation. That just does not seem to get through the thick skuls of the Goons, although most are under 20 yrs old and are obviously a part of the "I'm Uber-Entitled to everything in Life and will Lawyer my Way to Being Right" Generation. So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"? |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
207
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:29:00 -
[305] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"?
Provide proof of that.
I HIGHLY doubt that would be ignored by CCP. Your Mother would be ashamed at you for telling these White Lies.
I'm glad they are at least trying to clean up such nonsincical posters on the Forums finally. Been a long time coming.
And I have only 17 hours to live before turning off from this Sad FreakFest the game of EVE has tiresomely become. Good-bye. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
adam smash
University of Caille Gallente Federation
100
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:34:00 -
[306] - Quote
CCP mad they need to make something WORK nothing else.
WTF do they put out that works right from the start?
Sandbox BUT can't do somethings
Really CCP should stop calling this a sandbox. It is a sandbox of rules...
Space is cold and harsh but you better make sure not to do anything CCP does not like, better make sure not to say bad words in local, better make sure not to attack noobs... etc etc etc etc...
Sandbox my ass...
For once I'll say good for goons... this was no exploit... this was doing what the SANDBOX allowed.
CODE **** RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. GET PEOPLE WHO KNOW WTF THEY ARE DOING. |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:43:00 -
[307] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"?
It started being a known code weakness the day it was first reported. Therefore any abuse done after the first reports on Sisi is an abuse of a known vulnerability and thus should be bannable. The fact CCP did not patch it before release is bad for them, but does not authorize individuals going all out to abuse the most they can. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
126
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:52:00 -
[308] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote: Well you see, you hacking into my computer in the first place is illegal, there are already laws on the books that make it so, and despite finding a novel undocumented way to do it will still get you arrested. All CCP had to do was state that there was an exploit, and anybody abusing that exploit would be punished.
You obviously misunderstood my very, very simple example that had nothing to do with legality, but to simply illustrate the fact that it doesn't matter whether a vulnerability is documented or not (in this case CCP saying, no don't do that, which they didn't), abusing a vulnerability is, by definition, exploiting a system. Which i think was a response to some idiot saying, "but but CCP didn't say we couldn't abuse the vulnerability - so it must be OK , derrr...huhuh." It just so happens that this vulnerability was spoken about pre-inferno (documented / known of, - just not officially stated as such by CCP)... Its still a vulnerability open to exploitation. Yes, It is up to CCP to decide if they deem it an exploit. It doesn't look promising that they wont though, since the definition of an exploit is; "blah, blah...Or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. ....Blah blah." Principles of Information Security (4th edition) Chapter 1, page10. by Michael E. Whitman, Herbert J. Mattord. I'm just not sure why, or how anybody can argue anything different. If they had discovered it by accident, then sure. But we all know CCP will go easy on them : ) It's a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise. Intended game mechanic or not, that is how the game has worked up untill now. Up untill the twenty first it was a valid game mechanic, now it is not, deal with it. All those that pushed this to the breaking point, I say good job. If CCP knew about it and thought it wasnt what they intended they should have said something about it earlier. All I'm hearing now is, sour grapes, Goonies are bad m'kay, and "I wouldn't have done that." from the peanut gallery. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
126
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Posted - 2012.06.25 20:00:00 -
[309] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Lord Zim wrote: So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"?
It started being a known code weakness the day it was first reported. Therefore any abuse done after the first reports on Sisi is an abuse of a known vulnerability and thus should be bannable. The fact CCP did not patch it before release is bad for them, but does not authorize individuals going all out to abuse the most they can. CCP could have said We've heard about this, it might be a vulnerability, we will monitor it, and anybody abusing it is exploiting. They said NOTHING, or are we supposed to be mindreaders and read CCPs minds as to intent of a game mechanic? I don't know anybody that is a telepath, so we have to infer that it is a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:06:00 -
[310] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Cause unless you were there you dont know and the guys Im quoting WERE there
OK, sure, don't believe me, then. It matters little to me.
Well, given you CANT prove what YOURE saying and IM quoting from what the GUYS THAT DID IT said, yeah...
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
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Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2012.06.25 20:08:00 -
[311] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote: CCP could have said We've heard about this, it might be a vulnerability, we will monitor it, and anybody abusing it is exploiting. They said NOTHING, or are we supposed to be mindreaders and read CCPs minds as to intent of a game mechanic? I don't know anybody that is a telepath, so we have to infer that it is a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise.
Do you seriously need a telepath to understand that a vulnerability discovered and discussed for SiSi was not meant to be abused if it still stayed in game once deployed on TQ? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:08:00 -
[312] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Lord Zim wrote: So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"?
It started being a known code weakness the day it was first reported. Therefore any abuse done after the first reports on Sisi is an abuse of a known vulnerability and thus should be bannable. The fact CCP did not patch it before release is bad for them, but does not authorize individuals going all out to abuse the most they can.
especially when the guys doing it were (in their words) "lying in wait" for it to hit the play server http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:14:00 -
[313] - Quote
I would say, shooting Mackinaws is an exploit. Shooting somebody else is an exploit too. |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2012.06.25 20:15:00 -
[314] - Quote
I think the horse is well and truly dead now. Time to stop flogging it.
Arguments from both sides have been stated, restated, and repeated over and over again.
Lets just wait for CCP's popcorn moment......... |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
821
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:16:00 -
[315] - Quote
Does anyone know if CCP has said what happened and what they've done yet? Can anyone provide a breakdown of what has happened?
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Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:16:00 -
[316] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:I think the horse is well and truly dead now. Time to stop flogging it.
Arguments from both sides have been stated, restated, and repeated over and over again.
Lets just wait for CCP's popcorn moment.........
ya wheres that def blog
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:19:00 -
[317] - Quote
This is the part where you lock the thread and release the DevBlog :P |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
386
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:24:00 -
[318] - Quote
Driving home the "listen to your players" lesson. Nothing Found |
Lord Zim
943
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:39:00 -
[319] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote: CCP could have said We've heard about this, it might be a vulnerability, we will monitor it, and anybody abusing it is exploiting. They said NOTHING, or are we supposed to be mindreaders and read CCPs minds as to intent of a game mechanic? I don't know anybody that is a telepath, so we have to infer that it is a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise.
Do you seriously need a telepath to understand that a vulnerability discovered and discussed for SiSi was not meant to be abused if it still stayed in game once deployed on TQ? Up until this incident, if something was possible using documented ingame mechanics, and CCP hasn't said "this is not legal, don't do this", then it was fully legal to do so. This means everything is very clear-cut for players wrt legality.
Your interpretation can easily be construed in such a manner that f.ex utilizing tracking titans (which are utilizing an algorithm with a weakness where titans, the biggest ship in the game, can easily enough shoot and kill the smallest and most nimble ships in the game) could be seen as something which you "wouldn't need a telepath to understand shouldn't be done", because it's "not what the ship's designed role was". Instead, we looked upon this as "emergent gameplay" and embraced it. Hated it when we were up against it, but still a part of the sandbox.
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:44:00 -
[320] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote: CCP could have said We've heard about this, it might be a vulnerability, we will monitor it, and anybody abusing it is exploiting. They said NOTHING, or are we supposed to be mindreaders and read CCPs minds as to intent of a game mechanic? I don't know anybody that is a telepath, so we have to infer that it is a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise. Do you seriously need a telepath to understand that a vulnerability discovered and discussed for SiSi was not meant to be abused if it still stayed in game once deployed on TQ? Hilighted the relevant portion for you. You may consider it an exploit, heck your cousin who doesn't even play EVE may read it and say "Yea, that is a vulnerability waiting to be exploited." Only CCP can say if it is or not, and up untill the 21st, it was on TQ it was live and WAS NOT AN EXPLOIT, it was a valid game mechanic that anybody could use.
All CCP had to do was state right on pach day, that they knew about it and would consider it an exploit, till they could work a patch for it. Thats it, that is all they had to do to stop it being exploited, and they DIDN'T. What else coud anybody infer, when CCP is warned, and they are silent about it? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:48:00 -
[321] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
All CCP had to do was state right on pach day, that they knew about it and would consider it an exploit, till they could work a patch for it. Thats it, that is all they had to do to stop it being exploited, and they DIDN'T. What else coud anybody infer, when CCP is warned, and they are silent about it?
It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy.
Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things
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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:58:00 -
[322] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:
All CCP had to do was state right on pach day, that they knew about it and would consider it an exploit, till they could work a patch for it. Thats it, that is all they had to do to stop it being exploited, and they DIDN'T. What else coud anybody infer, when CCP is warned, and they are silent about it?
It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy. Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things Would you like some more tinfoil for that fine hat you're wearing? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Lord Zim
944
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Posted - 2012.06.25 21:18:00 -
[323] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy. Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things If this had been anything other than just a troll, then I would've been highly worried as a player, simply because it would mean that EVE the game has gone from a sandbox with clear, distinct rules of conduct, to a semi-sandbox with a developer which is actively trying to find ways with which to punish players. |
Nazim
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.06.25 21:38:00 -
[324] - Quote
Whoa whoa where is this stuff that its not an exploit until ccp says it is. Firstly ccp can decide retroactively that it was a exploit and punish all those using it prior to this statement. Other game companies do this and ccp has prior precedent of dooing it. For example ccp punished a guy who was afk ratting by having his sentries out and having reppers on the sentry. Ccp punished the guy and only later stated that this was an exploit. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 21:40:00 -
[325] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy. Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things If this had been anything other than just a troll, then I would've been highly worried as a player, simply because it would mean that EVE the game has gone from a sandbox with clear, distinct rules of conduct, to a semi-sandbox with a developer which is actively trying to find ways with which to punish players.
I dunno, EvE's advertising talks about consequences and a MMO world where things you do matter. Do something that looks like an exploit and maybe the consequence is finding a new MMO to play.
"I was there... but then I got banned."
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Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
492
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Posted - 2012.06.25 22:00:00 -
[326] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ?
meh
Tal
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Lord Zim
944
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Posted - 2012.06.25 22:05:00 -
[327] - Quote
Nope. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.06.25 22:07:00 -
[328] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ? meh Tal
yea I dont see this happening... know why? If theyre absolute you have the Goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping them apart for loopholes and have this exact situation happening on a constant basic instead of every once in a while http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Lord Zim
944
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Posted - 2012.06.25 22:11:00 -
[329] - Quote
So to avoid "goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping rules apart for loopholes when rules are absolutes and not open to interpretation", you'll expect a sandbox game to have very loose rules which are open to interpretation?
I ... see. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
127
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Posted - 2012.06.25 22:17:00 -
[330] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ? meh Tal yea I dont see this happening... know why? If theyre absolute you have the Goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping them apart for loopholes and have this exact situation happening on a constant basic instead of every once in a while CCP has made it quite clear that when they say "DON'T!" you don't, and trying to internet lawyer your way around it still gets you banhammered, so it is useles to even try. That, to me, seems pretty absolute, don't you think? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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