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Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
362
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Posted - 2012.06.23 06:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.
They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.
They did it really really well.
If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.
But it wasn't
That's noones' fault but CCP.
Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.
The economy will recover itself in time.
But the sandbox will take far longer to recover if CCP acts too harshly in their response.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
402
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
The goonies tears are false, they are not going to be even remotely bankrupt once CCP is done. I seriously doubt Goonies will even notice the loss in funds. EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Rainbow Rogue
Unicorn Zero
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1 to the OP, could'nt of said it better myself. |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much....
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1111
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:The goonies tears are false, they are not going to be even remotely bankrupt once CCP is done. I seriously doubt Goonies will even notice the loss in funds. Considering it was five people and no one else had much idea of what was happening, I should hope so.
Unless they, you know, just ban everyone on the reccomendation of random forum alt #328352 Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much....
Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit.
Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
197
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... How exactly is it an exploit? Unless having alts and the ability to perform simple sums is an exploit these days? There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Me thinks you don't actually understand what the term "exploit" means. Utilizing game mechanics that are not functioning as intended by the game designers to gain an advantage is an exploit. Hell, its the very definition of one.
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP is lashing out like an angry child because some of their players caused them embarrassment by exposing shoddy game design. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Indo Nira
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
3
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:CCP is lashing out like an angry child because some of their players caused them embarrassment by exposing shoddy game design.
or it's just because the same people, over, and over, and over again... are being dicks. noone gives you credit for 'discovering' this bug. if you knew from the very start that the design of that certain mechanic was flawed, it's just like saying, 'hey we knew what you made was broken, and just because what you made was broken from the very start, that means we can abuse it, cause it's not our fault'
if you even think a game mechanic is broken, you petition it, and see if it's intended to be that way or not. but no.. we're just gonna be dicks and gloat about it then say hey, it's not our fault we're dicks, it's your's |
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
197
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Me thinks you don't actually understand what the term "exploit" means. Utilizing game mechanics that are not functioning as intended by the game designers to gain an advantage is an exploit. Hell, its the very definition of one.
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy. How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
You can't petition to find out the answer, I've tried that before with seemingly dodgy game mechanics and received contradictory responses from different GM's There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Me thinks you don't actually understand what the term "exploit" means. Utilizing game mechanics that are not functioning as intended by the game designers to gain an advantage is an exploit. Hell, its the very definition of one.
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy.
Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it? |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
OP chooses to post a silly and obvious thread over his character ever being taken serious again. Also, the link in his sig about "don't whine, HTFU and adapt" makes this all hilarious. Amat victoria curam. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'll try and help.
Ask yourself this: Why did CCP add Faction Wars in the first place? From what I read, CCP wanted Faction Wars to be a place where you could do more casual PVP, a place where newer players could perhaps start their PVP life. I suppose sorta like RVB. So, it wasn't supposed to be a place to earn untold trillion of iskies. But, if you did well in Faction Wars, you'd be more rewarded than if you didn't do well, perhaps enough to keep funding your PVP without having to jump into a PVE ship. To me, that sounds pretty good. Lower risk because your losses can be covered to a degree, and lots of reds to shoot.
The mechanic of "one faction player blows up opposing faction player ship, that faction player receives juicy LP in proportion to the estimated ISK value, including cargo items" makes sense when you think of two cruisers locking horns in epic fighting on a gate. The more isk you spent on your fittings, the better your odds of killing someone, but it also might make you harder to kill thus giving a bit more reward for killing that guy.
All this to me sounds reasonable.
But then, the some Goons show up to the party. "Who invited these guys?!" They join all sides with alts and drive freighter's filled to the rim with ore/items into their own waiting alts on the opposing side and reap ungodly amounts of LP's from the system. Then, using these ill gotten LP's, muck up the whole works with upgrading systems and the like, destroying the whole premise of Faction Wars and system control. They send the whole thing into disarray, much to the chagrin of everyone involved in Faction Wars. Not all of course as some of them were earning a bit more than they probably expected.
This was NOT the intent of the Faction Wars loyalty reward system. You can argue that the devs should have made sure this couldn't happen, but it can also be argued that anyone abusing this aspect of the reward system are breaking the EULA.
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Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
And for the record, I don't think Faction Wars is really a "Sandbox" thing. It's a PVE/PVP type of monster.
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Dasola
Rookies Empire Rookie Empire
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Reminds me of time when CCP introduced PI to game and forgot to remove npc sell orders of postructures. Resulting some playies buying those sayd structures refining them and building something better and makeing huge profits in process.. CCP-¦s fix, turn all pos structure materials as extra materials, and we suffer that fix even today, even if all npc orders are long gone by now.
I would say sloppy gamedesign is norm in ccp. Cook something up, if players figure out how to bend it. fix it then after mandatory, OMG exploit yelling...
How about you people in ccp really start working instead. have one team code things, other team trying to figure how to exploit it and do it all before official release to live gameworld. Even better, reward the exploit team everythime they figure out how to bend it. if they dont, well that months reward goes to coders team.
Your running MMO in single shard gameworld cluster. thats 40.000+ people online in that single shard at peak times. Your software must be as secure as bossible, as unbendable by players as bossible. I can understand you donk know how to harden your code since devs dont really play this game, but you could always hire bending team from player base. Heck hire people that give you most bugreports/exploit notifications... banders after all dont need access to source code, they work from client side... Thats what players do as well... [Insert something funny or smart here] |
hedge betts Shiyurida
State Protectorate Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
Cup the balls, and work the shaft |
Constable Chang
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
In an MMO something is an exploit if the people who make the game say it is. Its really that simple. Anything can be an exploit. Once upon a time JETCAN MINING was an exploit, thats how trivial it can be. You never know what they will decide is an exploit next and there really is no way to predict it; it can be completely unjustified and completely unreasonable. But its THEIR (CCPs) game so they get to call 'exploit' whenever they want on whatever they want. They are like capricious deities of classical mythology; all powerful and you just hope they don't notice you.
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Dasola
Rookies Empire Rookie Empire
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Constable Chang wrote:Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you. In an MMO something is an exploit if the people who make the game say it is. Its really that simple. Anything can be an exploit. Once upon a time JETCAN MINING was an exploit, thats how trivial it can be. You never know what they will decide is an exploit next and there really is no way to predict it; it can be completely unjustified and completely unreasonable. But its THEIR (CCPs) game so they get to call 'exploit' whenever they want on whatever they want. They are like capricious deities of classical mythology; all powerful and you just hope they don't notice you.
very true, but were all consumers here, So we have right to expect that released game mechanic is working as intended. If its not, then why the hell is it on Live gameworld in firstplace? maybe ccp devs should actually start thinking if we do feature X, how will players try to exploit it and how can that lead to unintended results. As in how can we really prevent players from taking that feature mechanic and useing it in way we did not intended... Yelling wolf after the sheep herd is eaten by wolf, is not very good security.
I would rather take ironhardened game mechanics when its ready, instead of marketing department desiding when something must be ready to release. Market clowns make decision we get these halfbaked features that newer gets really finished since marketing clows comes up something new, before coders have time to finish it. [Insert something funny or smart here] |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention.
Delen Ormand wrote:Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it?
Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.- |
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EvEa Deva
State War Academy Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Goons will get a wee wee slap im sure, would suck if they all rage quit |
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Xython wrote:
Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit.
Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
It is rather simple: using an oversight or error in coding to gain an unfair advantage is an exploit.
Is it an oversight or error in coding? Yes. Was an advantage gained? Yes. Was the advantage unfair? Yes.
Was it an exploit? Yes
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
197
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention. Oh please I could name a dozen things that are valid tactics yet equally an 'obvious exploit'
CCP pick and choose all the time There should be a rather awesome pic here |
NickyYo
StarHug Russian International Allegiance
176
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Goons knew what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We will now post this now the exploit has been fixed".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! I have released a basic EVE Lottery Framework for you all you use to make lottery sites |
Serptimis
The Fiction Factory Blue Nation
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding |
NickyYo
StarHug Russian International Allegiance
176
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding
Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that. I have released a basic EVE Lottery Framework for you all you use to make lottery sites |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.
What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way.... in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them |
Serptimis
The Fiction Factory Blue Nation
19
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding. Didnt CCP change FW to reward LP on value of kills made? And also designed the new valuation of items based on the value of average prices over 90 days. Wasnt that what these guys used? It may have been an error to design the game that way, but it was itentional |
NickyYo
StarHug Russian International Allegiance
176
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding. What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way.... in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them
This is not RealLife and people who do it in real life markets get sent to prison when they get caught.
This is a computer game and goons broke the terms and conditions, thus damages CCP's reputation product and causing embarrassment. Goons thought they were godly doing this showing off posting about it, NOW CCP punish.
MOoore tears please, eve will be better without them. I have released a basic EVE Lottery Framework for you all you use to make lottery sites |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:...That's noones' fault but CCP... So Goons made sure to notify GM's/Dev's of the massive loophole prior to molesting it?
The description I read of the sequence said specifically that the Bwains! behind it intentionally avoided testing/doing it on SiSi before TQ .. smells to me like the people involved knowing full well that their plan would be borderline
The market will not need to adjust as it concerns a limited number of items, biggest problem is that the Minmatar militia grunts will never be able to make any sort of profit from LP as any item they can/will buy will be at rock bottom for ages due to the Goon stockpiles.
Large portion of blame is on CCP though, anyone with half a brain and gaming knowledge knows that a x4 modifier is huge .. so huge that most singleplayer games avoid modifiers of that magnitude entirely as it is nigh impossible to balance .. and Eve is a MMO ...
As for punishment .. 'meh'. Remove all ill-gotten items/LP/ISK, give back all minerals/ships used to catalyse the process and slap wrist (ie. roll-back in similar way as was done partially after tower exploit).
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Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
49
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Posted - 2012.06.23 09:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention. Delen Ormand wrote:Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it? Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.-
What I meant was, they perpetrated fraud, brought the economy down, then got something better than a pat on the back - they got off pretty much scot-free, with the taxpayer carrying the can for them. Still, be a bit daft to compare punishments (or lack of) in the real world to a bit of white-collar Eve crime, so ignore me :) |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding. Didnt CCP change FW to reward LP on value of kills made? And also designed the new valuation of items based on the value of average prices over 90 days. Wasnt that what these guys used? It may have been an error to design the game that way, but it was itentional
Riddle me this "Blue" guy.
Can I join RVB with alts on both sides? Can I then drive my Red guy into my Blue guy, say, 10,000 times in order to throw the stats/KB off? Would the CEO or whoever runs that show dismiss it? Or would they say, "hey guy, this isn't really why we have RVB. Go do that somewhere else."
I don't know if RVB care about KB stat padding or not.. doesn't matter. The point is RVB doesn't exist to let alts kill themselves.
Likewise, Faction Wars doesn't either. |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:I could name a dozen things that are valid tactics yet equally an 'obvious exploit'
CCP pick and choose all the time
You seriously think CCP intended to flood the economy with billions of isk and drive down the value of LPs? =p |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
197
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:13:00 -
[34] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:I could name a dozen things that are valid tactics yet equally an 'obvious exploit'
CCP pick and choose all the time You seriously think CCP intended to flood the economy with billions of isk and drive down the value of LPs? =p I don't pretend to know what they intended to do, but driving down the value of LP is the obvious consequence of reworking the LP store to give discounts.
Also if you believe the economy has been flooded with 'billion of isk' then you fail to understand how the LP store works. Billions of ISK flowed out of the economy, not into it There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:39:00 -
[35] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:I don't pretend to know what they intended to do, but driving down the value of LP is the obvious consequence of reworking the LP store to give discounts.
What they intended is the entire crux of the issue as what they intended determines whether or not this is an exploit. I sincerely do not believe they intended this otherwise there wouldn't be a problem. Obviously there's a problem. So it wasn't intended. Hence its an exploit. What CCP chooses to do about it is another matter but lets not pretend this is what CCP intended to happen.
Copine Callmeknau wrote: Also if you believe the economy has been flooded with 'billion of isk' then you fail to understand how the LP store works. Billions of ISK flowed out of the economy, not into it
Into certain wallets is likely a better way of putting it, yes. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
197
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:I don't pretend to know what they intended to do, but driving down the value of LP is the obvious consequence of reworking the LP store to give discounts.
What they intended is the entire crux of the issue as what they intended determines whether or not this is an exploit. I sincerely do not believe they intended this otherwise there wouldn't be a problem. Obviously there's a problem. So it wasn't intended. Hence its an exploit. What CCP chooses to do about it is another matter but lets not pretend this is what CCP intended to happen. Copine Callmeknau wrote: Also if you believe the economy has been flooded with 'billion of isk' then you fail to understand how the LP store works. Billions of ISK flowed out of the economy, not into it
Into certain wallets is likely a better way of putting it, yes. I'm not saying it was intended, I'm saying it's impossible to know what CCP intend or don't intend, because GM's give contradictory responses when asked about these things and CCP in the past have approved activities as dubious as what the GS have done this last week Basically it's a crapshoot
Yes flowing into certain wallets is a better way of putting it, it's quite irrelevant though, money flows from one player to another on a daily basis. There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Cpt Roghie
13
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Posted - 2012.06.23 10:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with this one!
Werent you supposed to quit? The amount of bulllshit comming out of you is incredible. Zzzzzzzz.
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Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
479
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Posted - 2012.06.23 10:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding. What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way.... in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them
Yeah and in real life if they play the markets in a way not intended the FSA comes down hard and fines them. They should have just told CCP about the flaw in their plan, not used it then told them.
Tal
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes. did it go live anyway? yes.
i fail to see how it wasn't intended. |
Cpt Roghie
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Eugene Kerner wrote:NickyYo wrote:Serptimis wrote:NickyYo wrote:Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".
All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears, Goodbye goons!!
Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one! They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding. What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way.... in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them Yeah and in real life if they play the markets in a way not intended the FSA comes down hard and fines them. They should have just told CCP about the flaw in their plan, not used it then told them. Tal
Eve =/= Real life. Zzzzzzzz.
|
|
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes. did it go live anyway? yes.
i fail to see how it wasn't intended.
If it was really intended it wouldn't be being investigated. Simple as that. Argue all you want, but CCP's actions reveal that this was not intended. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Dave stark wrote:was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes. did it go live anyway? yes.
i fail to see how it wasn't intended. If it was really intended it wouldn't be being investigated. Simple as that. Argue all you want, but CCP's actions reveal that this was not intended. then CCP should stop releasing content before it has been tested/finished.
let's assume it wasn't intended; goons are now being investigated for CCP dropping the ball. i guess if blizz/activision can get away with poor treatment like that, CCP can too. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1573
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:I could name a dozen things that are valid tactics yet equally an 'obvious exploit'
Such as webbing freighters on undock and bumping them to prevent them docking, cancelling warp or getting away? Or perhaps fitting Titans in such a way that they can blow moving interceptors out of the sky? Some problems can be fixed (such as halving the tracking on XL turrets), others can't (such as the mechanics behind docking, warping and being able to stop a warp).
When you find yourself thinking, "when CCP see me doing this, they're sure to nerf it," or "I can't believe they didn't think of this," that should be a clue that what you are doing is likely to be classed as an exploit. The FW reward system was intended to reward people for engaging in PvP in the FW environment, not to reward people for blowing up ridiculously overvalued freighter loads of goods in hisec, far away from FW fleets. I don't expect anyone actually believes that the design intent of FW was to have players blowing up their own freighters in hisec.
The people involved were clever to work this system out to efficiently. They were too full of their own egos though, and ruined the gig for everyone.
Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1573
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:then CCP should stop releasing content before it has been tested/finished.
Be careful what you wish for. Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
52
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes. did it go live anyway? yes.
i fail to see how it wasn't intended.
Actually, I don't think it was. I had posted the question "if you say this was all done in the interest of helping out EvE and the community, then why not do the "proof of concept" on Sisi."
And the response was "not possible". And while I agree the market manipulation wasn't possible as the market doesn't exists there, generating crap loads of LP and presenting to the devs with "See, in 15 minutes I just earned 1 BILLION LP's. Are you sure you guys got this stuff right?"
So, no, it wasn't spotted on Sisi. And even if the market did exist and everything was doable on Sisi, they wouldn't have done it there anyway.
As they already stated, the point wasn't to QA the system design, the point was to get rich, filthy space rich. And, then try and shut down the operation by telling CCP about so that nobody else got space rich, because "that would be damaging". |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:40:00 -
[46] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Dave stark wrote:was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes. did it go live anyway? yes.
i fail to see how it wasn't intended. Actually, I don't think it was. I had posted the question "if you say this was all done in the interest of helping out EvE and the community, then why not do the "proof of concept" on Sisi." And the response was "not possible". And while I agree the market manipulation wasn't possible as the market doesn't exists there, generating crap loads of LP and presenting to the devs with "See, in 15 minutes I just earned 1 BILLION LP's. Are you sure you guys got this stuff right?" So, no, it wasn't spotted on Sisi. And even if the market did exist and everything was doable on Sisi, they wouldn't have done it there anyway. As they already stated, the point wasn't to QA the system design, the point was to get rich, filthy space rich. And, then try and shut down the operation by telling CCP about so that nobody else got space rich, because "that would be damaging".
"Much of what we believed to be true could not be tested on SISI."
clearly the issue had already been identified, but was untested. it was spotted on sisi. |
The Chronophage
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:41:00 -
[47] - Quote
This happens IRL all the time. Bankers fix the system in such a way that the man on the street can't get a shot at the riches, lobbyist ensure that GE pays no taxes while the rest of us turn into peasants, Facebook insiders sell overprices shares to the public and BP pays a few million for permanently destroying the fisheries in the Gulf while still continuing to pump oil.
Smart people game the system even better than the people in charge of the system. The only way for us to stay in the game is to keep up. This is what makes EvE real.
|
Gun Gal
Dark Club
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves *snip* CCPIt-¦s not allowed to insult CCP and it-¦s Member, so i fixed your post! See Forum Rules for further Information
ISD Dosnix
Please take this tissue and wipe the goon goo from your lips, its kinda revolting |
Ursula Thrace
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:47:00 -
[49] - Quote
Constable Chang wrote:In an MMO something is an exploit if the people who make the game say it is. Its really that simple.
constable hit the nail on the head.
Eve Online Original Intro |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
52
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:53:00 -
[50] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Dave stark wrote:was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes. did it go live anyway? yes.
i fail to see how it wasn't intended. Actually, I don't think it was. I had posted the question "if you say this was all done in the interest of helping out EvE and the community, then why not do the "proof of concept" on Sisi." And the response was "not possible". And while I agree the market manipulation wasn't possible as the market doesn't exists there, generating crap loads of LP and presenting to the devs with "See, in 15 minutes I just earned 1 BILLION LP's. Are you sure you guys got this stuff right?" So, no, it wasn't spotted on Sisi. And even if the market did exist and everything was doable on Sisi, they wouldn't have done it there anyway. As they already stated, the point wasn't to QA the system design, the point was to get rich, filthy space rich. And, then try and shut down the operation by telling CCP about so that nobody else got space rich, because "that would be damaging". "Much of what we believed to be true could not be tested on SISI." clearly the issue had already been identified, but was untested. it was spotted on sisi.
The issue was spotted by reading the dev blogs about how they were going to reward LPs. It could have been demonstrated (at least the raping of the LP reward system anyway) and shown to CCP, but again, they didn't see the value in that.
Again, it was about "abusing", "exploiting", "cheating", "working" (whatever verb suits you) the situation for individual profit. |
|
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:56:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes. did it go live anyway? yes.
i fail to see how it wasn't intended. This |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Dave stark wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Dave stark wrote:was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes. did it go live anyway? yes.
i fail to see how it wasn't intended. Actually, I don't think it was. I had posted the question "if you say this was all done in the interest of helping out EvE and the community, then why not do the "proof of concept" on Sisi." And the response was "not possible". And while I agree the market manipulation wasn't possible as the market doesn't exists there, generating crap loads of LP and presenting to the devs with "See, in 15 minutes I just earned 1 BILLION LP's. Are you sure you guys got this stuff right?" So, no, it wasn't spotted on Sisi. And even if the market did exist and everything was doable on Sisi, they wouldn't have done it there anyway. As they already stated, the point wasn't to QA the system design, the point was to get rich, filthy space rich. And, then try and shut down the operation by telling CCP about so that nobody else got space rich, because "that would be damaging". "Much of what we believed to be true could not be tested on SISI." clearly the issue had already been identified, but was untested. it was spotted on sisi. The issue was spotted by reading the dev blogs about how they were going to reward LPs. It could have been demonstrated (at least the raping of the LP reward system anyway) and shown to CCP, but again, they didn't see the value in that. Again, it was about "abusing", "exploiting", "cheating", "working" (whatever verb suits you) the situation for individual profit.
every thing people do in this game is for individual profit. they simply logged in, and played the game and made money, like every other player. just because CCP made this method of making money faster than another method of making money doesn't make it an exploit, or cheating, or abusing.
|
Lili Lu
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:04:00 -
[53] - Quote
It appears the proper tactic would have been to alert CCP to the problem. If CCP failed to do anything to correct it once alerted then use the problem to your advantage.
Unfortunately it appears these goon spacefriends used the problem to their advantage, then alerted CCP to the problem.
The problem here being the market basis formula and lp reward ratios.
Regardless one poster above, I can't remember who, identified another huge flaw in the new FW design. The advantages for acheiving each tier are massive. In a game with usually 5% advantages per level (with skills) who thought a 100% advantage per level or whatever the damn advantage is for each tier was a good idea. That and no reward at all for defensive plexing. I can understand wanting to favor offensive plexing and incentivize attainment of each tier, but the design here seems extreme.
Soundwave doesn't have to hope the system is broken, it is broken. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:13:00 -
[54] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
every thing people do in this game is for individual profit. they simply logged in, and played the game and made money, like every other player. just because CCP made this method of making money faster than another method of making money doesn't make it an exploit, or cheating, or abusing.
Ah, see, this is where you are confused.
"... CCP didn't make this method of making money..." at all. The intent of Faction War loyalty rewards isn't to make money, at least not excessively. The intent is to give people a little incentive to bother with it since you can't fund Faction War PVP with the traditional "moon goo", "abusive landlord", what have you.
And I believe this is why action was taken. Because they broke the intent and abused Faction Wars.
Unless you think making alts in all factions and killing yourself over and over is fun, then this whole things reeks of "lame emergent game play"
|
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:19:00 -
[55] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:It appears the proper tactic would have been to alert CCP to the problem. If CCP failed to do anything to correct it once alerted then use the problem to your advantage.
Unfortunately it appears these goon spacefriends used the problem to their advantage, then alerted CCP to the problem.
The problem here being the market basis formula and lp reward ratios.
Regardless one poster above, I can't remember who, identified another huge flaw in the new FW design. The advantages for acheiving each tier are massive. In a game with usually 5% advantages per level (with skills) who thought a 100% advantage per level or whatever the damn advantage is for each tier was a good idea. That and no reward at all for defensive plexing. I can understand wanting to favor offensive plexing and incentivize attainment of each tier, but the design here seems extreme.
Soundwave doesn't have to hope the system is broken, it is broken.
Yeah, and I agree here. CCP got themselves into a bad spot trying to polish this turd that is "Faction Wars". And that's why it's been largely unused and ignored.
But I do applaud them in trying to think of something to get more people shooting each other instead of shooting NPC's and rocks. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Dave stark wrote:
every thing people do in this game is for individual profit. they simply logged in, and played the game and made money, like every other player. just because CCP made this method of making money faster than another method of making money doesn't make it an exploit, or cheating, or abusing.
Ah, see, this is where you are confused. "... CCP didn't make this method of making money..." at all. The intent of Faction War loyalty rewards isn't to make money, at least not excessively. The intent is to give people a little incentive to bother with it since you can't fund Faction War PVP with the traditional "moon goo", "abusive landlord", what have you. And I believe this is why action was taken. Because they broke the intent and abused Faction Wars. Unless you think making alts in all factions and killing yourself over and over is fun, then this whole things reeks of " lame emergent game play"
telling me i'm confused, then telling me CCP didn't make it. then who did? the pixies?
seriously though; CCP did make the method, and people used it. i'm sure CCP didn't intend for FW to have this kind of result. at the end of the day though, it has happened. CCP should have just gone "ok, we had a few teething problems with it, it's now fixed, carry on." we all make mistakes and CCP made one by releasing FW in the state it was. goons shouldn't be punished for CCP releasing FW in the state they did.
also if you justify some thing's legitimacy by how fun it is; ban all miners. clearly they're all cheating because they're making money by doing some thing boring. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
308
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
EvEa Deva wrote:Goons will get a wee wee slap im sure, would suck if they all rage quit
Explain people what is the Wee Wee Slap first so they know how painful it can be:
You put someone in some closed room, no windows, no light, no water no food and no toilets and you make them listen this for 48h NON STOP brb |
Cpt Roghie
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:39:00 -
[58] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:EvEa Deva wrote:Goons will get a wee wee slap im sure, would suck if they all rage quit Explain people what is the Wee Wee Slap first so they know how painful it can be: You put someone in some closed room, no windows, no light, no water no food and no toilets and you make them listen this for 48h NON STOP
Oh yes Im sure that's sufficient punishment for doing something that was working as intended. I mean, why else put it up on TQ? Zzzzzzzz.
|
Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Yes, it is CCP's fault: why the hell do they employ an economist in any case?
It is also an exploit if CCP decides it is, given that it's their game and the definition of an exploit is subjective.
In the past, CCP have called something that bypasses "Rules As Intended" as an exploit and I expect they will be consistent in this case.
And they should call it an exploit and they should get every last bit of profit back, as failing to do so would cause me, and many others I am sure, to leap towards the point of no return where you think "What's the frakkin' point? No amount of work or organisation could ever allow me to catch up with that amount of wealth." And that's where people just unsub.
Accordingly I'd disagree that this is a wonderful example of the colourful sandbox which will get more people to play the game. It'll put off any potential players (as well as any non-goon-butt-licker existing player).
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this because I don't like Goons. Yes we all know they're generally a bunch of mom's-basement socially-deficient children, but ever since I read Mittani's first leaked eloquent address to them back in the BoB days I knew that Goon leadership would turn the rabble into a force to be reckoned with. Anyway, I have no particular hostility to them. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:48:00 -
[60] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
telling me i'm confused, then telling me CCP didn't make it. then who did? the pixies?
seriously though; CCP did make the method, and people used it. i'm sure CCP didn't intend for FW to have this kind of result. at the end of the day though, it has happened. CCP should have just gone "ok, we had a few teething problems with it, it's now fixed, carry on." we all make mistakes and CCP made one by releasing FW in the state it was. goons shouldn't be punished for CCP releasing FW in the state they did.
also if you justify some thing's legitimacy by how fun it is; ban all miners. clearly they're all cheating because they're making money by doing some thing boring.
I don't think anyone was really punished. There are some quibbles about "they took more they were supposed to" from someone who is still filthy space rich doesn't really make that much of a difference. They just didn't get to keep their ill gotten goods.
Had these dudes been banned you'd have a point.
And regarding miners... no, they shouldn't be banned, but they shouldn't get to be trillionaires for mining in high sec either (And I think Goons and co. are actively making sure that is the case). I'll chalk that up with "lame emergent game play" as well. |
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Dave stark wrote:
telling me i'm confused, then telling me CCP didn't make it. then who did? the pixies?
seriously though; CCP did make the method, and people used it. i'm sure CCP didn't intend for FW to have this kind of result. at the end of the day though, it has happened. CCP should have just gone "ok, we had a few teething problems with it, it's now fixed, carry on." we all make mistakes and CCP made one by releasing FW in the state it was. goons shouldn't be punished for CCP releasing FW in the state they did.
also if you justify some thing's legitimacy by how fun it is; ban all miners. clearly they're all cheating because they're making money by doing some thing boring.
I don't think anyone was really punished. There are some quibbles about "they took more they were supposed to" from someone who is still filthy space rich doesn't really make that much of a difference. They just didn't get to keep their ill gotten goods. Had these dudes been banned you'd have a point. And regarding miners... no, they shouldn't be banned, but they shouldn't get to be trillionaires for mining in high sec either (And I think Goons and co. are actively making sure that is the case). I'll chalk that up with "lame emergent game play" as well.
no, as far as i'm aware nobody has been punished, nor should they. however the fact that CCP are even investigating it....
how was it ill gotten? all they did to make the isk was sell lp items on the market. that's basically saying every one in jita has a wallet full of "ill gotten gains".
if people are buying trit at 1bil per unit, why shouldn't high sec miners be trillionaires?
i'm sorry but all you're really saying with your posts are "i don't like what goons are doing, goons are lame" which is pretty much what every one says to justify why action should be taken on the matter. |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
797
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:01:00 -
[62] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves *snip* CCPIt-¦s not allowed to insult CCP and it-¦s Member, so i fixed your post! See Forum Rules for further Information
ISD Dosnix
You're wrong.
Exploiting someone in EVE is not against the rules. We do it every day.
What these guys did was similar to finding the rate at which officer spawns happen and going around farming only officer spawns.
A list of fixes for the new inventory
Dual Pane idea clicky |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:14:00 -
[63] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
how was it ill gotten? all they did to make the isk was sell lp items on the market. that's basically saying every one in jita has a wallet full of "ill gotten gains".
i'm sorry but all you're really saying with your posts are "i don't like what goons are doing, goons are lame" which is pretty much what every one says to justify why action should be taken on the matter.
Back to this?
It was ill gotten because of how they got the LP. If mission runners could bring haulers full of junk and pop themselves during mission to generate stupid amounts of LP, what do you think the general response would be from EVERY SINGLE Goon. Do I have to tell you?
My issue has nothing to do with the Goons in particular.
Anyone who drives their own alts into themselves for the purpose of blowing themselves up is "lame game play". That's not even game play, that's just stupid. We saw it with insurance fraud, which was lame also. The dude who self destructs his collection or 20k battleships to collect insurance or however that story went, that too was lame and abusive of the insurance mechanics. Was he a Goon too? I don't know, I don't care. It's the behavior I find lame, not who is doing it. |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:16:00 -
[64] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.
They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.
They did it really really well.
If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.
But it wasn't
That's noones' fault but CCP.
Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.
The economy will recover itself in time.
But the sandbox will take far longer to recover if CCP acts too harshly in their response.
The sandbox is not being hurt, don't kid yourselves. It most likely would have been hurt more if this had been allowed to continue than stopping it cold and reseting the clock. Quite frankly, the sandbox will recover long before a lot of you will.
There is such a thing as Working as Intended though, and while this policy DID apply to the GSF, this was NOT what CCP intended. So they dealt with what they consider an exploit. Normally when people abuse exploits, they get the ban, but since this was a newly discovered exploit, they merely removed ill-gotten gains from the exploit and let everyone move on. While it may be CCP's bad programming to blame here, that doesn't mean that one gets to take the goods and run. If a bank makes a mistake in your favor, do you get to keep the money? No. Same principle applies here.
A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:16:00 -
[65] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Exploiting someone in EVE is not against the rules. We do it every day.
What these guys did was similar to finding the rate at which officer spawns happen and going around farming only officer spawns.
Massive difference between exploiting someone in the traditional sense and something in an IT / game design sense. =P |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:18:00 -
[66] - Quote
Oh, and before you come back with "he didn't get his ill gotten insurance iskies taken away, it's not fair, waaaa waaaa waaaa" I don't know, but I would have argued he should have had them taken away. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:18:00 -
[67] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Dave stark wrote:
how was it ill gotten? all they did to make the isk was sell lp items on the market. that's basically saying every one in jita has a wallet full of "ill gotten gains".
i'm sorry but all you're really saying with your posts are "i don't like what goons are doing, goons are lame" which is pretty much what every one says to justify why action should be taken on the matter.
Back to this? It was ill gotten because of how they got the LP. If mission runners could bring haulers full of junk and pop themselves during mission to generate stupid amounts of LP, what do you think the general response would be from EVERY SINGLE Goon. Do I have to tell you? My issue has nothing to do with the Goons in particular. Anyone who drives their own alts into themselves for the purpose of blowing themselves up is "lame game play". That's not even game play, that's just stupid. We saw it with insurance fraud, which was lame also. The dude who self destructs his collection or 20k battleships to collect insurance or however that story went, that too was lame and abusive of the insurance mechanics. Was he a Goon too? I don't know, I don't care. It's the behavior I find lame, not who is doing it.
still haven't explained how it's ill gotten. the game was intended to give you lp for destroying ships.
well, it is. every time you mention some thing you describe as "lame" it's because goons are doing it.
i've not been around long enough to know about the insurance fraud thing; you'll have to excuse me for having no idea what you're talking about. sorry. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
345
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:34:00 -
[68] - Quote
Goons are crying big Jewbal tears. It's working. Well done, CCP. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
404
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:41:00 -
[69] - Quote
OP is just another goon apologist. There was no nobility in what the Goons did. Enterprise and entrepreneurialism involve offering something that other people want, not taking advantage of a mistake in CCP's design. You insult enterprising people everywhere with that kind of description. Not that I'm surprised, considering the source.
Goon tried to reap another PR bonanza from marginal activities and got their hand slapped. Simple as that. They were not being heroic. Their smugness in the original post about this earned them exactly what they got. |
Momoyo
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
So how is it an exploit if they told CCP about it before it went live and CCP said "working as intended." I mean people made ridiculous amounts of money off incursions for a while, some people said it was unfair and too easy and other just went on and did it.
How would you feel if you petitioned CCP and asked them " Hey can I do x" and CCP said yes. The next day they ban you/ confiscate your stuff for doing X. Thats the point here. The goons made some money and then they lost it. No big deal they dont care about that. |
|
Suvari Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:38:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:OP is just another goon apologist. There was no nobility in what the Goons did. Enterprise and entrepreneurialism involve offering something that other people want, not taking advantage of a mistake in CCP's design. You insult enterprising people everywhere with that kind of description. Not that I'm surprised, considering the source.
Goon tried to reap another PR bonanza from marginal activities and got their hand slapped. Simple as that. They were not being heroic. Their smugness in the original post about this earned them exactly what they got.
on the other hand, listening to all the Goon QQ'ing never gets old, but, when it comes to the goons, have to say, just because they got caught with their hands in the cooky jar, doesnt meant their not doing another half dozen things they shouldnt that CCP just havent caught up with yet |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
946
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy.
Please note that not a single person on Wall Street, not ONE, has gone to jail over our recent housing bubble and other economic troubles. Quite literally we do consider them, at least from a legal standpoint, to be full of "entrepreneurial spirit" and thus not legally liable for anything that happened.
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AureoBroker
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:16:00 -
[73] - Quote
Abusing a sloppy mechanic is the very definition of exploit. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
Xython wrote:Xhaiden Ora wrote:By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy. Please note that not a single person on Wall Street, not ONE, has gone to jail over our recent housing bubble and other economic troubles. Quite literally we do consider them, at least from a legal standpoint, to be full of "entrepreneurial spirit" and thus not legally liable for anything that happened.
"Flush out your headgear, new guy" - Animal Mother
If you actually believe that, then you got your head in the sand[box].
Nobody has gone to jail over that because the US legal system has been bought and paid for by the Federal Reserve (I'd argue the all the gov. has been) and guess who these Wall Street and bank CEO's puppets report to? That's right, the Federal Reserve.
The Fed still needs these puppets to keep the illusion alive that the dollar still has value for as long as possible. They plan on riding that illusion straight to the graves and give a nice 1 finger salute to future generations.
They don't deserve jail time, they deserved to be lynched.
|
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
Lulz, if you don't understand the term Exploit, no one can help you.....
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:24:00 -
[76] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves *snip* CCPIt-¦s not allowed to insult CCP and it-¦s Member, so i fixed your post! See Forum Rules for further Information
ISD Dosnix
You're wrong. Exploiting someone in EVE is not against the rules. We do it every day. What these guys did was similar to finding the rate at which officer spawns happen and going around farming only officer spawns.
Look like even the sub-pets don't understand the term Exploit. Look it up, see how it applies, and move on...... Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:04:00 -
[77] - Quote
Momoyo wrote:So how is it an exploit if they told CCP about it before it went live and CCP said "working as intended." I mean people made ridiculous amounts of money off incursions for a while, some people said it was unfair and too easy and other just went on and did it.
How would you feel if you petitioned CCP and asked them " Hey can I do x" and CCP said yes. The next day they ban you/ confiscate your stuff for doing X. Thats the point here. The goons made some money and then they lost it. No big deal they dont care about that.
See, that's where you're believing the propaganda.
CCP wasn't told they were going to crash their own alts driving freighter full of loots into there other faction alts in order to get stupid amounts of LP with a very low ISK/LP cost, take that LP and completely hose up the Faction Wars reward system, crash the LP items, rinse and repeat across different factions, etc etc etc.
Had they explained THAT in detail, and CCP said, "Yeah, well, no kidding because that's exactly why we put these loyalty points rewards in there", then you have a point. |
Patrakele
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:11:00 -
[78] - Quote
Not enough tears. Yes, please randomly ban accounts from that alliance. On second thought, ban everyone outside high sec, I require more tears for my space ship propulsion system and nourishment. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
i too find it usefull to open dupilcate threads IBL? PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:24:00 -
[80] - Quote
How many threads do we need on this, really? You do realize this is just free PR for the goons? Dear lord the amount of butt hurt on both sides is reaching dangerously funny levels. |
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Markus Reese
Incertae Sedis Cascade Imminent
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:24:00 -
[81] - Quote
Yo, been away for a couple of weeks. Not sure what this thread is about, but am always interested in exploit or problem, farm mechanics. What I gather is that some people joined faction warfare, and they were making high value losses to get massive amounts of LP worth more than what they lost?
Either missed or cannot find what they fixed, but wouldnt that be a matter of the approximate value of the lp compared to the loss value? What was the change, was it nerfing the lp that fw people got?
Edit: Never thought to read the goonies threadnaught |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
372
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:47:00 -
[82] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention. Delen Ormand wrote:Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it? Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.-
How many of those bankers faced legal consequences? And aside from that, eve isn't real, it's a game. noone was hurt from Goonswarms actions, the bankers cannot say the same.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
372
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:49:00 -
[83] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Ris Dnalor wrote:...That's noones' fault but CCP... So Goons made sure to notify GM's/Dev's of the massive loophole prior to molesting it?
So, it's OUR responsibility to tell CCP when they mess up? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
372
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:53:00 -
[84] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:OP is just another goon apologist. There was no nobility in what the Goons did. Enterprise and entrepreneurialism involve offering something that other people want, not taking advantage of a mistake in CCP's design. You insult enterprising people everywhere with that kind of description. Not that I'm surprised, considering the source.
Goon tried to reap another PR bonanza from marginal activities and got their hand slapped. Simple as that. They were not being heroic. Their smugness in the original post about this earned them exactly what they got.
I disagree with your concept of enterprise and entrepreneurism, though you are entitled it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:58:00 -
[85] - Quote
Delen Ormand wrote:Xhaiden Ora wrote:Me thinks you don't actually understand what the term "exploit" means. Utilizing game mechanics that are not functioning as intended by the game designers to gain an advantage is an exploit. Hell, its the very definition of one.
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy. Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it?
Yup and we're shocked that game players expect the same horrible leadership from game devs. :P |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
240
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 04:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.
They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.
They did it really really well.
If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.
Gaming Exploit: any action which deliberately abuses a gaming mechanic in an way not intended by the developer for an advantage over other players. Frankly, it was obvious that this was not the intended use of this mechanic.. Instead of immediately reporting the bug or problem they took the "bob" approach and exploited it. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.
If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.
Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:06:00 -
[88] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.
If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.
Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more.
less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you? |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
121
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:22:00 -
[89] - Quote
Oh.. mai... gawd....
Let it go guys. For the love of all that is holy, please just get over it and move on. Normally I would be all over these tears, but wow, it is getting pathetic. Let it go... |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:31:00 -
[90] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.
If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.
Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more. less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you?
What I'm angry about is that a mechanic like this is able to ruin the fun for tons of other people.
You can't ruin the fun for everyone but you and justify it by saying "THE SANDBOX MAN!". |
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:38:00 -
[91] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:Dave stark wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.
If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.
Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more. less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you? What I'm angry about is that a mechanic like this is able to ruin the fun for tons of other people. You can't ruin the fun for everyone but you and justify it by saying "THE SANDBOX MAN!".
of course you can, that's exactly what people say when you ruin a 2 month old character's day by popping the drake he probably hasn't insured and can't afford to replace.
also, how many people's game has been ruined? if goons hadn't have said it happened i wouldn't have even noticed. what effect has it had on you? i'll wager it hasn't touched you in the slightest.
stop being so bitter and jealous. |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:50:00 -
[92] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:Dave stark wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.
If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.
Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more. less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you? What I'm angry about is that a mechanic like this is able to ruin the fun for tons of other people. You can't ruin the fun for everyone but you and justify it by saying "THE SANDBOX MAN!". of course you can, that's exactly what people say when you ruin a 2 month old character's day by popping the drake he probably hasn't insured and can't afford to replace. also, how many people's game has been ruined? if goons hadn't have said it happened i wouldn't have even noticed. what effect has it had on you? i'll wager it hasn't touched you in the slightest. stop being so bitter and jealous.
I'm not bitter, I am happy being a Ice Miner/Ratter and I enjoy the nice profits I get during massive cap wars. I just don't see the point in why Goons did this, regardless of your stance on the issue they knew they would get there Wallets zeroed out.
What did they gain by doing this? Nothing except empty wallets, which is the funniest part. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:59:00 -
[93] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:Dave stark wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:Dave stark wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.
If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.
Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more. less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you? What I'm angry about is that a mechanic like this is able to ruin the fun for tons of other people. You can't ruin the fun for everyone but you and justify it by saying "THE SANDBOX MAN!". of course you can, that's exactly what people say when you ruin a 2 month old character's day by popping the drake he probably hasn't insured and can't afford to replace. also, how many people's game has been ruined? if goons hadn't have said it happened i wouldn't have even noticed. what effect has it had on you? i'll wager it hasn't touched you in the slightest. stop being so bitter and jealous. I'm not bitter, I am happy being a Ice Miner/Ratter and I enjoy the nice profits I get during massive cap wars. I just don't see the point in why Goons did this, regardless of your stance on the issue they knew they would get there Wallets zeroed out. What did they gain by doing this? Nothing except empty wallets, which is the funniest part.
nice to see you've read what's going on. the wallets and assets are a temporary thing at the moment. on top of that; it was done to prevent a crash in the markets, not as a punishment towards the players.
also by the lack of comment on how it's effected you, it hasn't. hence your statement about ruining the game for everyone clearly doesn't stand up. in fact, it didn't stand up once i pointed out it didn't even affect me. |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:54:00 -
[94] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Gaming Exploit: any action which deliberately abuses a gaming mechanic in an way not intended by the developer for an advantage over other players. Frankly, it was obvious that this was not the intended use of this mechanic.. Instead of immediately reporting the bug or problem they took the "bob" approach and exploited it. How does this situation compare to, say, insurance frauding, buying and refining PA, or the whole PI debacle? |
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Cover it in whatever shroud of shite you want. End of the day you spotted a faulty game mechanic, never reported it.
When is CCP going to realise theres still rules in a sandbox and if kids keep kicking over every ones sandcastle eventually a guardian has to step in and remove said kid and punish him.
Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:48:00 -
[96] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
331
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:06:00 -
[97] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Gibbo3771 wrote:Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished? Yes all very good past road signs of what NOT to do. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
926
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:07:00 -
[98] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Gibbo3771 wrote:Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished? Yes all very good past road signs of what NOT to do. So when are the people who did that going to get their punishment, then? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:09:00 -
[99] - Quote
So do we continue the 4x4 thread here now that its locked? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
331
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:10:00 -
[100] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Gibbo3771 wrote:Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished? Yes all very good past road signs of what NOT to do. So when are the people who did that going to get their punishment, then? The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. Which is worse than the POS guys ever did. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
331
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:11:00 -
[101] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:So do we continue the 4x4 thread here now that its locked? Shhh mustn't talk about moderation. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:11:00 -
[102] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Gibbo3771 wrote:Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished? Yes all very good past road signs of what NOT to do. So when are the people who did that going to get their punishment, then? The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did.
Guess CCP got tired of being taken advantage of? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
331
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:15:00 -
[103] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Guess CCP got tired of being taken advantage of?
Not real good for CCP's public face. They get accused of supporting a large alliance over the War dec thing and now a week later members of the same alliance are rubbing there face in it.
They really didn't need this one now. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Mishraile Viliana
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:21:00 -
[104] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Gibbo3771 wrote:Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished?
Main difference as far as I can see is that for those CCP applied a patch and they were no longer possible, with the current issue there was a patch to counter the ridiculous amounts of LP that was being generated by this scheme and goons went out of their way to figure out how they could continue. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:26:00 -
[105] - Quote
Mishraile Viliana wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Gibbo3771 wrote:Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished? Main difference as far as I can see is that for those CCP applied a patch and they were no longer possible, with the current issue there was a patch to counter the ridiculous amounts of LP that was being generated by this scheme and goons went out of their way to figure out how they could continue.
because if they could continue, ccp needed to be notified that they failed. right? |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention. Delen Ormand wrote:Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it? Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.-
Other exploits that are not CCP's intention : - speed tanking FW missions in unarmed frigates. - afk mining ice 23/7 - extreeme blobs of supercarriers killing everything - titans tracking frigates and cruisers. - no industry in null sec
Some of these have been fixed, but, never did they punish the once that used these superior game mechanics |
Indo Nira
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:43:00 -
[107] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:Gaming Exploit: any action which deliberately abuses a gaming mechanic in an way not intended by the developer for an advantage over other players. Frankly, it was obvious that this was not the intended use of this mechanic.. Instead of immediately reporting the bug or problem they took the "bob" approach and exploited it. How does this situation compare to, say, insurance frauding, buying and refining PA, or the whole PI debacle?
how about you open your own thread about this and take this discussion there. ok? you might get your answers there |
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:44:00 -
[108] - Quote
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention. Delen Ormand wrote:Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it? Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.- Other exploits that are not CCP's intention : - speed tanking FW missions in unarmed frigates. - afk mining ice 23/7 - extreeme blobs of supercarriers killing everything - titans tracking frigates and cruisers. - no industry in null sec Some of these have been fixed, but, never did they punish the once that used these superior game mechanics
-speed tanking a site is within game mechanics, all the techniques are there and have been used in pve/pvp for years -afk mining is like using autopilot, lets remove autopilot then -actually, now people have a bunch of useless expensive ships -same as above -how is that an exploit
The punishment with the above comes with the fixes you listed....
Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
Mishraile Viliana
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:51:00 -
[109] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:because if they could continue, ccp needed to be notified that they failed. right?
The scale it was done after the initial adjustment was well beyond anything that could be considered for notification purposes. That might have worked if they limited to a few billion instead of trillions. |
Lord Zim
926
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:57:00 -
[110] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did. The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far. |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2509
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:58:00 -
[111] - Quote
This argument is inevitably partisan. If you like goons (or are a goon) it seems to be making excuses is the order of the day, if you don't like the goons (or do like the idea that CCP provide some oversight for their game) then a certain degree of schadenfreude seems to be the doctor's orders. At this point though the discussion is getting boring. The game mechanics involved were clearly twisted in ways CCP don't approve of, and their developer on the spot has already stated they would be in their rights to punish on breach of the rules.
For my part, I think its creative abuse for sure. The market manipulation/exploit was cunning. I don't really like the lp-duping/double-counting thing though (that was obviously broken as all hell) - and the admission of keyboard macro abuse during the cash out is distasteful. But yeah, CCP is in a bind here.
If they punish the goons appropriately the goonswarm is going to go mental. Threadnaughts and summer of tears etc. Threats of negative PR -mass unsubs - and all that, hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).
If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.
Goons are already the CCP poster children for emergent gameplay (ie griefing hisec) and lauded in the gaming press and development conferences by CCP officials - and if they don't get an appropriate punishment for an exploit on this truly staggering scale then :shrug: I guess a lot of players may be considering their subscriptions anyway, Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.
So this is probably the "great war" we've all been missing the last few years, and its not a clash of spaceships in 0.0, its not propaganda and plots laid at BBQ's in 2006, its not about the CSM and stacking the player council and its not about G19 macro's hammering out LP offer accepts for 28 hours straight,
Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe. I think its probably the first time in the history of massively multiplayer online gaming that there has been a war of this scale and significance - and once again Eve Online is the forerunner of some truly emergent gameplay on levels of metagaming that would make other games crawl up in a corner and cry themselves to sleep.
Still lets all keep watching. After all, this time next year the goon economic cabal might be dictating terms to the president of Iceland!
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:06:00 -
[112] - Quote
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
Other exploits that are not CCP's intention : - speed tanking FW missions in unarmed frigates. - afk mining ice 23/7 - extreeme blobs of supercarriers killing everything - titans tracking frigates and cruisers. - no industry in null sec
Some of these have been fixed, but, never did they punish the once that used these superior game mechanics
Hm.. how good of a game would EvE be if they did punish/ban all people doing these things? |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
1053
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:08:00 -
[113] - Quote
Almost everything Goons do is - self-avowedly, no less - an attempt to show people that all actions they take have consequences, and not neccessarily ones they'll like, either.
I'm amused that Goons are reacting so negatively to the undesirable consequences that actions they took precipitated. Mane 614
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
331
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:08:00 -
[114] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did. The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far. Possibly but the people involved didn't go out of there way to make CCP look incompetent. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Malacath Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:11:00 -
[115] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: This argument is inevitably partisan. If you like goons (or are a goon) it seems to be making excuses is the order of the day, if you don't like the goons (or do like the idea that CCP provide some oversight for their game) then a certain degree of schadenfreude seems to be the doctor's orders. At this point though the discussion is getting boring. The game mechanics involved were clearly twisted in ways CCP don't approve of, and their developer on the spot has already stated they would be in their rights to punish on breach of the rules.
For my part, I think its creative abuse for sure. The market manipulation/exploit was cunning. I don't really like the lp-duping/double-counting thing though (that was obviously broken as all hell) - and the admission of keyboard macro abuse during the cash out is distasteful. But yeah, CCP is in a bind here.
If they punish the goons appropriately the goonswarm is going to go mental. Threadnaughts and summer of tears etc. Threats of negative PR -mass unsubs - and all that, hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).
If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.
Goons are already the CCP poster children for emergent gameplay (ie griefing hisec) and lauded in the gaming press and development conferences by CCP officials - and if they don't get an appropriate punishment for an exploit on this truly staggering scale then :shrug: I guess a lot of players may be considering their subscriptions anyway, Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.
So this is probably the "great war" we've all been missing the last few years, and its not a clash of spaceships in 0.0, its not propaganda and plots laid at BBQ's in 2006, its not about the CSM and stacking the player council and its not about G19 macro's hammering out LP offer accepts for 28 hours straight,
Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe. I think its probably the first time in the history of massively multiplayer online gaming that there has been a war of this scale and significance - and once again Eve Online is the forerunner of some truly emergent gameplay on levels of metagaming that would make other games crawl up in a corner and cry themselves to sleep.
Still lets all keep watching. After all, this time next year the goon economic cabal might be dictating terms to the president of Iceland!
CCP were told during testing that something like this could happen & they blatantly ignored everyone. In doing this, they condoned the action wether they intended to or not.
In other news, how's business?
Before I forget.... What hair bleach do you use?
|
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:13:00 -
[116] - Quote
This argument is not partisan.
The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.
A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale. |
baltec1
1537
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:14:00 -
[117] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did. The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far. Possibly but the people involved didn't go out of there way to make CCP look incompetent.
They did for years with reprocessing shuttles. |
Lord Zim
926
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:18:00 -
[118] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:keyboard macro abuse Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard. Are you trying to start a rumor they weren't at the keyboard?
Jade Constantine wrote:hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec). So uh, your few "friends" would try to do anything if we brought down, say, a burn jita-level fleet?
I'd bet on them running away yelping like a kicked dog.
Jade Constantine wrote:If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for. You mean treat this case like they did the insurance fraud, the anoms, PI, PA, gunmining in drone regions, neut logis etc? Yes, that would be heavily goon-friendly and totally in line with their reaction to other, similar incidents.
Jade Constantine wrote:Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance. This sounds very much like a rumor. You wouldn't be trying to start a rumor, would you?
Jade Constantine wrote:Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe. As does this. |
Lord Zim
926
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:22:00 -
[119] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did. The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far. Possibly but the people involved didn't go out of there way to make CCP look incompetent. So what you're saying is that it's not the size of the operation, nor the effect it has on the economy, but how embarassed CCP got? |
Malacath Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:24:00 -
[120] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:keyboard macro abuse Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard. Are you trying to start a rumor they weren't at the keyboard? Jade Constantine wrote:hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec). So uh, your few "friends" would try to do anything if we brought down, say, a burn jita-level fleet? I'd bet on them running away yelping like a kicked dog. Jade Constantine wrote:If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for. You mean treat this case like they did the insurance fraud, the anoms, PI, PA, gunmining in drone regions, neut logis etc? Yes, that would be heavily goon-friendly and totally in line with their reaction to other, similar incidents. Jade Constantine wrote:Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance. This sounds very much like a rumor. You wouldn't be trying to start a rumor, would you?
You can not reason with the unreasonable. It must be the bleach.
|
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
332
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:26:00 -
[121] - Quote
Does this whole thing come under "The Presumption of Safety"
Did these 5 players honestly believe they would be allowed to get away with the use of such an exploit free and clear?
Do members of Goonswarm now " rush to the forums and loudly bleat out their indignation and horror at encountering loss or danger."?
Have Goonswarm now become like "Those howling about the unfairness of Hulkageddon and the demands from entitled easymoders that the rules be changed to make EVE safer are particularly deserving of scorn because of the wealth of information and tactics used daily to avoid death in Hulkageddon."?
The risks of there actions were well documented, CCP has shown time and again that the destruction of your own belongings to get rich is not what EvE is about.
They have also shown what happens to those who deliberately exploit a bug. http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626
Was the Mittani right "It is this combination of ignorance and entitlement that threatens EVE."? Did these players think they were above the rules?
I think The Mittani sums up these players actions well with "signs that this kind of passive, ignorant, and entitled player is infecting the playerbase and beginning to make demands that CCP change the nature of EVE itself to accommodate their stupidity."
So all I can say is that they did the crime and should do the time. That punishment is in the POS bug and is a precedent that should be followed.
Exerts from Sins of a Solar Spymaster #79: The Presumption of Safety by The Mittani http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/spymaster/79 Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
226
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:29:00 -
[122] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: The game mechanics involved were clearly twisted in ways CCP don't approve of, and their developer on the spot has already stated they would be in their rights to punish on breach of the rules.
For my part, I think its creative abuse for sure. The market manipulation/exploit was cunning. I don't really like the lp-duping/double-counting thing though (that was obviously broken as all hell) - and the admission of keyboard macro abuse during the cash out is distasteful. But yeah, CCP is in a bind here.
If they punish the goons appropriately the goonswarm is going to go mental. Threadnaughts and summer of tears etc. Threats of negative PR -mass unsubs - and all that, hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).
If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.
Goons are already the CCP poster children for emergent gameplay (ie griefing hisec) and lauded in the gaming press and development conferences by CCP officials - and if they don't get an appropriate punishment for an exploit on this truly staggering scale then :shrug: I guess a lot of players may be considering their subscriptions anyway, Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.
So this is probably the "great war" we've all been missing the last few years, and its not a clash of spaceships in 0.0, its not propaganda and plots laid at BBQ's in 2006, its not about the CSM and stacking the player council and its not about G19 macro's hammering out LP offer accepts for 28 hours straight,
Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe. I think its probably the first time in the history of massively multiplayer online gaming that there has been a war of this scale and significance - and once again Eve Online is the forerunner of some truly emergent gameplay on levels of metagaming that would make other games crawl up in a corner and cry themselves to sleep.
Still lets all keep watching. After all, this time next year the goon economic cabal might be dictating terms to the president of Iceland!
I think both you and goons need to get over goons.
They may be the loudest, they may even be the best organized... but they are a tiny tiny fraction of the people that play this game. They will cry and kick dirt around until something else grabs their attention or steals the spotlight from them.
This isn't a court of law, CCP isn't going to rue the day they messed with goons, they aren't caught in some tricky predicament where their only move left is to say "gee goons, you got us this time, you win the game". It's their game, their stuff and they are going to manage it in the way that is most fair to all players AND healthiest for the game's success.
As for the rest of the players: Even if you spent a month trying to convince people to care you will still have an infinitesimal percentage of the playerbase even knowing this drama exists... the number that actually care and will talk with their wallets? Negligible. I see and hear no sentiments that ppl want bans passed out... what ppl that do care usually first say "meh, impressive" and then continue with one of two things "they should let goons keep the stuff" and "they should reverse the damage goons made".
Either way, I'm not getting the feeling that CCP is going to have ppl unsubbing if they DO take away a goons exploited assets. If they don't, there might be a blip on the radar on ppl in FW that quit, but my guess is most would just lose interest in FW. So, not so much CCP losing income/players over this, but if they don't reverse the damage they could lose FW which they just decided to try and invest in.
We are approaching year 10 of this game. This is old hat for CCP. Nerds tried to break their game and got smacked. It really is that simple. Nothing is going to snowball from this, there will be no internet movement to save the goons exploited assets and what little there might be is the same, tired out crap, they pull time and time again.
However, I will point out that if this is completely unprecedented and unjust, goons might want to consider finding another videogame? Because that would happen in reality right?? (LOlololol).
Goons need to remember it's them logging in to CCP's servers every morning to get their epic nerd fix. Not the other way around. If they had ANY true conviction, they'd have all left years ago. They are trolling (because that's all they do) and I'm not sure they even know it anymore.
It's beyond people not trusting the boy calling wolf. Most have cotton in their ears now, they don't even care about the crazy/delusional kid screaming outside, because that's all he's done for 7 years.
Malacath Azaria wrote:CCP were told during testing that something like this could happen & they blatantly ignored everyone. In doing this, they condoned the action wether they intended to or not.
In other news, how's business?
Before I forget.... What hair bleach do you use?
Oh dear. So they didn't just ignore it. They BLATANTLY ignored it. ooooooo
They didn't condone crap and you know it. They didn't condone it by not catching it and they CERTAINLY didn't condone it because you say they did. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
332
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:29:00 -
[123] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did. The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far. Possibly but the people involved didn't go out of there way to make CCP look incompetent. So what you're saying is that it's not the size of the operation, nor the effect it has on the economy, but how embarassed CCP got? I'm saying you pull a tiger by the tail, it will not just ignore you. You make it public, you make it a bigger thing. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:30:00 -
[124] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Guess CCP got tired of being taken advantage of?
Not real good for CCP's public face. They get accused of supporting a large alliance over the War dec thing and now a week later members of the same alliance are rubbing there face in it. They really didn't need this one now.
Summer's the only time Ive seen them CARE about their "public" face rather than telling ppl to HTFU
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2511
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:35:00 -
[125] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard.
I imagine CCP will be able to reach their own conclusions (by analyzing how the macro's functioned over time) as to whether users were at the keyboard or not. As I said in the substantive post this is a partisan argument and there isn't likely to be much valid argumentation coming from people in the perpetrator's alliance.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:36:00 -
[126] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Almost everything Goons do is - self-avowedly, no less - an attempt to show people that all actions they take have consequences, and not neccessarily ones they'll like, either.
I'm amused that Goons are reacting so negatively to the undesirable consequences that actions they took precipitated.
Yeah this is pretty funny
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:40:00 -
[127] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard.
I imagine CCP will be able to reach their own conclusions (by analyzing how the macro's functioned over time) as to whether users were at the keyboard or not. As I said in the substantive post this is a partisan argument and there isn't likely to be much valid argumentation coming from people in the perpetrator's alliance.
I liked the rumor trolling tho Cause apparently the new rule makes it.... not trolling too? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Lord Zim
932
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:43:00 -
[128] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard.
I imagine CCP will be able to reach their own conclusions (by analyzing how the macro's functioned over time) as to whether users were at the keyboard or not. As I said in the substantive post this is a partisan argument and there isn't likely to be much valid argumentation coming from people in the perpetrator's alliance. You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse". You've got no idea how it was used, so I guess you've just started or reinforced a rumor. |
Prandax Xeon
Rapier Innovations
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:47:00 -
[129] - Quote
I say this whole thing is unfair and the Goons need to show CCP who they are dealing with. On the count of 3 all Goons need to unsubscribe to show CCP how unfair this is. We all know CCP only cares about money, so ---
1
2
3 - all goons hit ctr-Q and unsubscribe!!!!!!!!!!!!! How is a Wyvern like an Ibis?-á Neither have a drone bay!-á-á |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:49:00 -
[130] - Quote
Prandax Xeon wrote:I say this whole thing is unfair and the Goons need to show CCP who they are dealing with. On the count of 3 all Goons need to unsubscribe to show CCP how unfair this is. We all know CCP only cares about money, so ---
1
2
3 - all goons hit ctr-Q and unsubscribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!
or "burn it down" like I keep hearing
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2511
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:50:00 -
[131] - Quote
Wisdom Divine wrote:This argument is not partisan.
The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.
A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale.
Sometimes you need to sit back and have a dispassonate look at the absurdity of some of these statements. CCP is a games company that run an MMO for profit. They are not some kind of Stanford Prison Experiment style academic study on the psychology of sandbox behaviour. This is a game first and foremost. If some of the players are cheating at the game they need to be stopped so the rest of the players can enjoy the game on the assumption that the game rules are preserved by the organizer.
If you guys really want to do the academic experimentation thing you should probably write up an abstract and pitch for funding.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
SavageBastard
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:52:00 -
[132] - Quote
Wisdom Divine wrote:This argument is not partisan.
The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.
A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale.
It is partisan in that by creating "two sides" Jade can put itself as the center of attention of one of them. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:53:00 -
[133] - Quote
I'm not sure if this is relevant but maybe CCP should have read some of the comments when they first announced the changes to FW a few months ago.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2511
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:55:00 -
[134] - Quote
[quote=Lord ZimYou said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..[/quote]
Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.
Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!
The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
333
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:57:00 -
[135] - Quote
Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first. After all who would try to exploit a known bug. You would have to be a fool wouldn't you. Imagine what the egg on you face would look like if you got caught.
Or gloated about it in General discussion. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:59:00 -
[136] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You mean the argument where you assumed it was an automatic loop which went for 14 hours straight, which would be banned by the EULA, instead of making things like one keypress pressing F1, F2, F3 etc, which is allowed? |
Lord Zim
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:08:00 -
[137] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first. Last I checked, misc ccp devs were saying that the days of "it's time to launch, nevermind its state just launch it and we'll fix it later" were over. Which would mean that they should've delayed the launch until they reworked the mechanic until it was no longer gameable. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2512
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:14:00 -
[138] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You mean the argument where you assumed
I mean precisely what I said. I don't need a goonswarm forum spin-doctor to reinterpret my posts. (and nor frankly does anyone else actually wanting an open discussion).
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
stoicfaux
1130
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:17:00 -
[139] - Quote
Xython wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much.... Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit. Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.
When it potentially imbalances the game, thus potentially affecting CCP's income from the game. Business rules trump game rules, in other words.
So, as well thought out and as well implemented as it was, the market/FW/LP manipulation sounds like it is simply too egregious and too game imbalancing for CCP to ignore. Should the innovators/perpetrators be heavily punished? Nah. Should their hard-won/ill-gotten gains be removed? I hate to say it, but probably yes. =/
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|
Varesk
Mafia Redux Black Legion.
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:17:00 -
[140] - Quote
They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. CCP was caught with their pants around their ankles and bent over the desk. They are doing the only thing CCP knows how to do, which is remove legally gained assets and silence the players via moderation or forum bans.
CCP really ****** this expansion up with the "revamp" to faction warfare and the new Inventory. Its sorta funny since they had 6 months to work on it. Considering Crucible was done in 4-6 weeks.
Maybe its time for CCP to start only doing one expansion a year and make sure its 100 percent ready for TQ. Hire some people to actually QA the patch, instead of using SiSi and not reading the feedback threads.
This summers expansion, not the worse by far but close, is just another notch in CCPs belt for delivering expansions with more problems than actual fixes. |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
333
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:23:00 -
[141] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first. Last I checked, misc ccp devs were saying that the days of "it's time to launch, nevermind its state just launch it and we'll fix it later" were over. Which would mean that they should've delayed the launch until they reworked the mechanic until it was no longer gameable. If they did that we would never see anything and it would end up being like the United Sates Government procurement programs, they would spend lots of money and we would never see anything.
As it was a known bug, people should have had enough brains not to touch it. The documentation on it was public but so was the bug.
They exploited a known bug and should be punished for it. Saying but CCP left it there is hardly a valid excuse. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:25:00 -
[142] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You mean the argument where you assumed I mean precisely what I said. I don't need a goonswarm forum spin-doctor to reinterpret my posts. (and nor frankly does anyone else actually wanting an open discussion). Yeah, well, see, the problem with your assumption is that for it to be "automating this process to gain an advantage over you", it would have to be the "press once, go make dinner" type of macro. As this quote shows:
Aryth wrote:G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch. it's perfectly legal as CCP themselves have stated, as it requires the user be at the keyboard.
So uh, yes, I definitely "lost" that argument. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
226
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:26:00 -
[143] - Quote
Varesk wrote:
They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. CCP was caught with their pants around their ankles and bent over the desk. They are doing the only thing CCP knows how to do, which is remove legally gained assets and silence the players via moderation or forum bans.
CCP really ****** this expansion up with the "revamp" to faction warfare and the new Inventory. Its sorta funny since they had 6 months to work on it. Considering Crucible was done in 4-6 weeks.
Maybe its time for CCP to start only doing one expansion a year and make sure its 100 percent ready for TQ. Hire some people to actually QA the patch, instead of using SiSi and not reading the feedback threads.
This summers expansion, not the worse by far but close, is just another notch in CCPs belt for delivering expansions with more problems than actual fixes.
outside of goonswarm and inventory fix's aside.... the latest patches have been resounding successes across the eve community
The people playing, not exploiting, FW are loving it.
Maybe it's time you realize the game grows, expands and there will be mistakes. Goons being crybabies is evidence of their inability to deal with this (or insistence to troll it) ... the game itself and the development process seems to be a green light for 99% of the game.
Or maybe goons just need to learn how to play? I mean, this latest stunt was about 75% stupid and ill conceived and 25% in game savy and I'm pretty sure the "CCP isn't perfect therefore they've poisoned the games foundation"
and what are you on about "legally gained assets"? If we needed any more proof you have no idea what you are talking about...
let me guess. You're a big time lawyer in RL and your firm will be contacting Iceland through the UN to address this violation of international rights?
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
333
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:26:00 -
[144] - Quote
Varesk wrote:
They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. CCP was caught with their pants around their ankles and bent over the desk. They are doing the only thing CCP knows how to do, which is remove legally gained assets and silence the players via moderation or forum bans.
CCP really ****** this expansion up with the "revamp" to faction warfare and the new Inventory. Its sorta funny since they had 6 months to work on it. Considering Crucible was done in 4-6 weeks.
Maybe its time for CCP to start only doing one expansion a year and make sure its 100 percent ready for TQ. Hire some people to actually QA the patch, instead of using SiSi and not reading the feedback threads.
This summers expansion, not the worse by far but close, is just another notch in CCPs belt for delivering expansions with more problems than actual fixes.
As this was explained so heavily during the last CSM election as CSM 6's baby, if you don't like it, don't vote for people who were on CSM 6. Find someone who represents you better and fight for them. Or just make up crackpot conspiracy theories lol. Oh wait they can be counted as rumors, so don't do that Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:45:00 -
[145] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Wisdom Divine wrote:This argument is not partisan.
The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.
A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale. Sometimes you need to sit back and have a dispassonate look at the absurdity of some of these statements. CCP is a games company that run an MMO for profit. They are not some kind of Stanford Prison Experiment style academic study on the psychology of sandbox behaviour. This is a game first and foremost. If some of the players are cheating at the game they need to be stopped so the rest of the players can enjoy the game on the assumption that the game rules are preserved by the organizer. If you guys really want to do the academic experimentation thing you should probably write up an abstract and pitch for funding.
Nice strawman you have going there.
When somebody is punished for an otherwise legal action only because of its scale, it wasn't cheating. It wasn't breaking the rules. It was punishing success.
I have no beef with either Goons or anti-Goons. Perhaps that is why I can see something you failed to. It's not just players who cheat. Devs can cheat too. It has happened at least once before.
CCP vowed it won't happen again. That's why rules should be the same for everyone. Clear rules keep check on both players and devs.
Judging legality is a very good way to have clear rules.
Judging scale not so much. If CCP is indeed choosing scale over legality in the FW fiasco, it's a backward step to the times CCP vowed to never happen again.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
226
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:51:00 -
[146] - Quote
Wisdom Divine wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Wisdom Divine wrote:This argument is not partisan.
The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.
A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale. Sometimes you need to sit back and have a dispassonate look at the absurdity of some of these statements. CCP is a games company that run an MMO for profit. They are not some kind of Stanford Prison Experiment style academic study on the psychology of sandbox behaviour. This is a game first and foremost. If some of the players are cheating at the game they need to be stopped so the rest of the players can enjoy the game on the assumption that the game rules are preserved by the organizer. If you guys really want to do the academic experimentation thing you should probably write up an abstract and pitch for funding. Nice strawman you have going there. When somebody is punished for an otherwise legal action only because of its scale, it wasn't cheating. It wasn't breaking the rules. It was punishing success. I have no beef with either Goons or anti-Goons. Perhaps that is why I can see something you failed to. It's not just players who cheat. Devs can cheat too. It has happened at least once before. CCP vowed it won't happen again. That's why rules should be the same for everyone. Clear rules keep check on both players and devs. Judging legality is a very good way to have clear rules. Judging scale not so much. If CCP is indeed choosing scale over legality in the FW fiasco, it's a backward step to the times CCP vowed to never happen again.
you used that word again, legal action
how is it legal? What laws are these things covered under? What jurisdiction are we in for this discussion?
or would you mean "Permitted by the EULA of the game, which also states CCP can pretty much change their minds on any of those rules because they own and operate the game, including complete ownership of any virtual goods in your wallet or assets window"
I agree, mine is a bit of a mouthful... but much more technically correct than your "legal actions" crap
at what point will Goons be lawyering up? Since this is a legal matter and all. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2512
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:53:00 -
[147] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Aryth wrote:G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch. it's perfectly legal as CCP themselves have stated, as it requires the user be at the keyboard. So uh, yes, I definitely "lost" that argument.
As I said, only CCP can be counted on to look at the pattern of macro use in this case and decide if it was consistant with giving the user an advantage in acquiring wealth in game. I'm hardly likely to count the words of the perpetrator of this exploit as somehow being sufficient to decide the whole of the story now am I?
I doesn't matter if Aryth was afk for 28 hours or 2 mins. If that macro was running to automate the collection of lp store offers that cost a normal player 2 clicks each then he was gaining an unfair advantage by macro. Its pretty astonishing you cannot see the problem with your argument - but then again - :goons:
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:58:00 -
[148] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You mean the argument where you assumed I mean precisely what I said. I don't need a goonswarm forum spin-doctor to reinterpret my posts. (and nor frankly does anyone else actually wanting an open discussion).
Including sreegs in the now-locked thread lol
Quote:Lord Zim wrote: Frying Doom wrote: Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.
Last I checked, misc ccp devs were saying that the days of "it's time to launch, nevermind its state just launch it and we'll fix it later" were over. Which would mean that they should've delayed the launch until they reworked the mechanic until it was no longer gameable.
last I checked because CCP made the mistake of allowing the exploit into the game didnt make it right to exploit that exploit. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
121
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:10:00 -
[149] - Quote
Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Lord Zim
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:13:00 -
[150] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Aryth wrote:G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch. it's perfectly legal as CCP themselves have stated, as it requires the user be at the keyboard. So uh, yes, I definitely "lost" that argument. CCP have stated NOTHING yet in relation to this macro lp store collection issue. So please stop lying and making things up. I'm not lying or making things up, you're the one who's interpreting and assuming what the nature of the keyboard macro is, and by essence start a rumor.
Jade Constantine wrote:I doesn't matter if Aryth was afk for 28 hours or 2 mins. If that macro was running to automate the collection of lp store offers that cost a normal player 2 clicks each then he was gaining an unfair advantage by macro. Its pretty astonishing you cannot see the problem with your argument - but then again - :goons: Sounds to me like you've pretty much made up your mind. |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:22:00 -
[151] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:So please stop lying and making things up.
would not lying and making things up BE that rumor creating stuff CCP are looking to ban ppl for now? After all incorrect, and purposefully incorrect rumors are damaging
Wonder how much longer we're gonna be allowed to do this "youre rumoring" "no you are" before CCP starts calling THAT spam/trolling and banning ppl for it lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
121
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:26:00 -
[152] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:So please stop lying and making things up.
would not lying and making things up BE that rumor creating stuff CCP are looking to ban ppl for now? After all incorrect, and purposefully incorrect rumors are damaging This disscussion has devolved into, "Ooh!, I'm gon'na tell mom CCP."
EDIT: His edit makes it even more so. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:29:00 -
[153] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:So please stop lying and making things up.
would not lying and making things up BE that rumor creating stuff CCP are looking to ban ppl for now? After all incorrect, and purposefully incorrect rumors are damaging This disscussion has devolved into, "Ooh!, I'm gon'na tell mom CCP."
Thought that was EVE-O was all about; its just usually not so public
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Aramatheia
European Nuthouse
46
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:45:00 -
[154] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.
yet all this time people have been screaming that high seccers need to not have thier hands held in ultra safe wow land... (you know high sec)
and now you are saying that virtually the very anti-hand hold crowd needed to have thier hands held so they wouldnt go over the top using a broken game function? |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
249
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:50:00 -
[155] - Quote
people still posting these moronic threads? Goons would have been fine if once they saw how redicioulus it was they stopped. Them continuing to abuse the system knowing that it would be patched is where they screwed up. It's obvious they hoped that by them telling CCP about the bug and then posting here screaming about "sandbox" they would look like the good guys and be able to keep their fortune.
Looks like they lost the meta game on this one, lol
CCP - 1 Goons - 0 On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Lord Zim
936
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:51:00 -
[156] - Quote
Aramatheia wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words. yet all this time people have been screaming that high seccers need to not have thier hands held in ultra safe wow land... (you know high sec) and now you are saying that virtually the very anti-hand hold crowd needed to have thier hands held so they wouldnt go over the top using a broken game function? The general rule of thumb regarding the use of game mechanics have been that as long as CCP hasn't said something isn't an exploit, it isn't regarded as an exploit. When they have said it is an exploit, hands off or get burnt.
Not that this stopped such things as POS bowling etc, of course. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
1054
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:56:00 -
[157] - Quote
But this isn't about CCP punishing people for exploits they weren't told about. This is about CCP punishing Goons for exploits they weren't told about. Mane 614
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2516
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:58:00 -
[158] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.
Quoting an inaccurate quote doesn't really help your argument. Only people that can definitively say whether exploits and abuse happened are CCP. We have opinions on it certainly, but stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
121
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:00:00 -
[159] - Quote
Aramatheia wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words. yet all this time people have been screaming that high seccers need to not have thier hands held in ultra safe wow land... (you know high sec) and now you are saying that virtually the very anti-hand hold crowd needed to have thier hands held so they wouldnt go over the top using a broken game function? CCP saying, "Don't do that." isn't hand holding, it is laying down a law. Kind of like how the Police don't hold your hand, and warn you about every law you might break, they will just arest you for breaking them. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Lord Zim
936
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:13:00 -
[160] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Quoting an inaccurate quote doesn't really help your argument. Only people that can definitively say whether exploits and abuse happened are CCP. We have opinions on it certainly, but stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact. Good thing you're good at not labelling actions as "abuse" before CCP have said it is abuse, eh? |
|
Aramatheia
European Nuthouse
47
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:17:00 -
[161] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Aramatheia wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words. yet all this time people have been screaming that high seccers need to not have thier hands held in ultra safe wow land... (you know high sec) and now you are saying that virtually the very anti-hand hold crowd needed to have thier hands held so they wouldnt go over the top using a broken game function? CCP saying, "Don't do that." isn't hand holding, it is laying down a law. Kind of like how the Police don't hold your hand, and warn you about every law you might break, they will just arest you for breaking them.
thats my point. The ppl in the middle of all this could have avoided all trouble by simply not overstepping that boundary. There didnt have to be big signs and glaring warnings. It could be obvious that for 5 ppl to make 5 trillion by blowing thier own stuff up, something was critically broken.
CCP didnt plug the hole yet it was obviously quite obscure since only 5 ppl masterminded thier way through it. Thats also why they didnt have to broadcast that *this hole exists stay away!*. Common sense from the 5 would have been more valuable than CCP broadcasting the flaw to the entire playerbase.
CCP didnt need to take the hands of "the 5" and guide them away from the problem, nor was it critically obvious and in need of immediate correction or else it wouldnt just be 5 *random alliance members* it would be the entire minmatar FW side doing it. Thats why "the 5" should have used common sense and none of this would have happened |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:22:00 -
[162] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words. Quoting an inaccurate quote doesn't really help your argument. Only people that can definitively say whether exploits and abuse happened are CCP. We have opinions on it certainly, but stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact. "stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact."
"opinion as fact." Well I found your problem.
Just because the person I quoted was inaccurate, does not invalidate my argument, and my argument was that if CCP were aware that FW LP rewards for kills could be farmed in this way, they should have made a statement that they would deem that an exploit. All CCP needed to do to prevent this whole debacle was make this statement,
"There might be a potential exploit in LP rewards for FW kills. We will monitor the situation and take apropriate action if the need arrises." and this whole drama filled episode would have gone *poof*.
Lord Zim wrote:The general rule of thumb regarding the use of game mechanics have been that as long as CCP hasn't said something isn't an exploit, it isn't regarded as an exploit. When they have said it is an exploit, hands off or get burnt.
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
876
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:29:00 -
[163] - Quote
CCP has always reported the existence of an exploit (though not specific enough to encourage its use, just enough so that those who had used it could stop). And afaik, only after the report did they take action against those who exploited it after it was announced.
This breaks a pattern of CCPs involvement with exploits. They did not announce it and they are seemingly taking action against those who used it without it being announced.
I have no issue with CCPs actions... but it wasn't an exploit at the time that the Goons used it. It was just a bad idea that wasn't checked carefully enough. Kinda like the pre-nerf Vanguards. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:41:00 -
[164] - Quote
Aramatheia wrote: thats my point. The ppl in the middle of all this could have avoided all trouble by simply not overstepping that boundary. There didnt have to be big signs and glaring warnings. It could be obvious that for 5 ppl to make 5 trillion by blowing thier own stuff up, something was critically broken.
When CCP doesn't say there even is a boundry there isn't one. and I will quote
Lord Zim wrote:The general rule of thumb regarding the use of game mechanics have been that as long as CCP hasn't said something isn't an exploit, it isn't regarded as an exploit. When they have said it is an exploit, hands off or get burnt.
Aramatheia wrote: CCP didnt plug the hole yet it was obviously quite obscure since only 5 ppl masterminded thier way through it. Thats also why they didnt have to broadcast that *this hole exists stay away!*. Common sense from the 5 would have been more valuable than CCP broadcasting the flaw to the entire playerbase.
Just because only 5 had the audacity to pull this off to this scale does not mean that there were only 5 doing it.
Aramatheia wrote: CCP didnt need to take the hands of "the 5" and guide them away from the problem, nor was it critically obvious and in need of immediate correction or else it wouldnt just be 5 *random alliance members* it would be the entire minmatar FW side doing it. Thats why "the 5" should have used common sense and none of this would have happened
CCP was warned this might happen, a lot of Minmatar FW people made bank besides "the 5", all that had to be done on CCPs part is to warn people 'DON'T!" and the problem would have been solved right out of the gate.
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 19:04:00 -
[165] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:Gaming Exploit: any action which deliberately abuses a gaming mechanic in an way not intended by the developer for an advantage over other players. Frankly, it was obvious that this was not the intended use of this mechanic.. Instead of immediately reporting the bug or problem they took the "bob" approach and exploited it. How does this situation compare to, say, insurance frauding, buying and refining PA, or the whole PI debacle?
You mean, finally CCP does something against cheaters instead of doing nothing like in the past? It was about damn time they changed their policy.
All the past exploiters should have been insta-perma banned to give an example.
It's just fair those involved in this FW abuse get *at least* their assets impounded. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
876
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 19:38:00 -
[166] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Aramatheia wrote: thats my point. The ppl in the middle of all this could have avoided all trouble by simply not overstepping that boundary. There didnt have to be big signs and glaring warnings. It could be obvious that for 5 ppl to make 5 trillion by blowing thier own stuff up, something was critically broken.
When CCP doesn't say there even is a boundry there isn't one. and I will quote Lord Zim wrote:The general rule of thumb regarding the use of game mechanics have been that as long as CCP hasn't said something isn't an exploit, it isn't regarded as an exploit. When they have said it is an exploit, hands off or get burnt. Aramatheia wrote: CCP didnt plug the hole yet it was obviously quite obscure since only 5 ppl masterminded thier way through it. Thats also why they didnt have to broadcast that *this hole exists stay away!*. Common sense from the 5 would have been more valuable than CCP broadcasting the flaw to the entire playerbase.
Just because only 5 had the audacity to pull this off to this scale does not mean that there were only 5 doing it. This goes back to the first point, that if CCP doesn't say that it is/might be an exploit, then it isn't. And realy, you expect people, goon or not, to show restraint when a veritable ISK fountain is presented before their eyes? Aramatheia wrote: CCP didnt need to take the hands of "the 5" and guide them away from the problem, nor was it critically obvious and in need of immediate correction or else it wouldnt just be 5 *random alliance members* it would be the entire minmatar FW side doing it. Thats why "the 5" should have used common sense and none of this would have happened
CCP was warned this might happen, a lot of Minmatar FW people made bank besides "the 5", all that had to be done on CCPs part is to warn people 'DON'T!" and the problem would have been solved right out of the gate. In fact I wonder if all those others who benefited greatly from this are being "punished" or if it is just the Goons.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 19:48:00 -
[167] - Quote
Heres a question: How do you all think CCP should fix the problem? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Lord Zim
937
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 19:48:00 -
[168] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:In fact I wonder if all those others who benefited greatly from this are being "punished" or if it is just the Goons. I wouldn't expect anyone else other than the 5 to get punished, tbh, unless CCP deems some people's action pattern to be suspicious.
I wouldn't really hold my breath on that happening, to be honest. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 19:53:00 -
[169] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:people still posting these moronic threads? Goons would have been fine if once they saw how redicioulus it was they stopped. Them continuing to abuse the system knowing that it would be patched is where they screwed up. It's obvious they hoped that by them telling CCP about the bug and then posting here screaming about "sandbox" they would look like the good guys and be able to keep their fortune.
Looks like they lost the meta game on this one, lol
CCP - 1 Goons - 0
Goons would have been fine had they shut up about it and NOT bragged about it all over the forums to stroke epeen
Lord Zim wrote: The general rule of thumb regarding the use of game mechanics have been that as long as CCP hasn't said something isn't an exploit, it isn't regarded as an exploit. When they have said it is an exploit, hands off or get burnt.
Not that this stopped such things as POS bowling etc, of course.
Yeah that wasnt an exploit until ppl other than Bob..... http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 19:57:00 -
[170] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words. Quoting an inaccurate quote doesn't really help your argument. Only people that can definitively say whether exploits and abuse happened are CCP. We have opinions on it certainly, but stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact.
and starting rumors that you know what youre talking about
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:08:00 -
[171] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Heres a question: How do you all think CCP should fix the problem? they already have, the lp conversion formula has changed.
edit: and certain items have had their market value rolled back (i think) |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:13:00 -
[172] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Heres a question: How do you all think CCP should fix the problem? From what I can gather they have a soft patch that already solves the most egregious problems, but a statement that manipulating the FW loyalty point rewards for faction kills is considered an exploit, and the banhammer is hitting anybody that does it, would really nail this down as an exploit to not push your luck with. With that done, they can get to work fixing the formula so that this can't be exploited in the future, and put in a future hotpatch.
Frankly I think they should have just used the base hull price alone, and not bothered with modules and cargo included in the calculation. It would have been much harder to spoof the formula with the volume of ships being sold, and salvaging the wrecks would have netted them any extra ISK. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:14:00 -
[173] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Heres a question: How do you all think CCP should fix the problem? they already have, the lp conversion formula has changed. edit: and certain items have had their market value rolled back (i think)
why is this thread continuing again then?
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Lord Zim
937
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:16:00 -
[174] - Quote
Because of bacon. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:21:00 -
[175] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Because of bacon. MMMMmmmmh! Bacon!
Darn, now I'm hungry. Curse you Goons!!!!1 "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Lord Zim
937
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:25:00 -
[176] - Quote
You'll want http://www.goonswithspoons.com/Welcome_to_Goons_With_Spoons |
Gaellia Bonaventure
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:37:00 -
[177] - Quote
I swear I thought I saw the dead horse twitch that time. Bring your possibles. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:49:00 -
[178] - Quote
it was the equivalent of finding out your banks cash points are know for software flaws occasionally, and discovering when after you look at your balance and then request $10 that the cash point gives you $50 instead due to a software "feature" you test again to verify the fault, then contact your bank who don't sound like they quite believe you, and on your way back out you look again at the cash point and decide to do it again as much as you can, you then deposit the money into your account with your bank, are you really surprised when they finish investigating and then remove from your account all the funds and interest you gained from the cash point along with other people who did the same? so in that example your tried to take advantage of a flaw "IE poor game mechanic design" and rightly had it reversed.
Quote:"No one in Goonswarm expected this to not be rolled back. Not realistically."
Really? you didn't expect the bank (CCP) to reclaim the money(LP&items) gained due to a flaw?
Quote:"If you want to abuse something, you do not report it."
and if you abuse/exploit something and then get caught, will you really be surprised when the ban hammer comes swinging in?
Quote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this, Including many thousands of datacores that Aryth bought before all of this, of course, off the market. Good luck getting CCP to own up to that mistaken, of course.
you all sunk assets into this realizing full well there could be repercussions and consequences for doing so, with regards to aryth's data cores, they should be returned if it is indeed a mistake, but IF as I suspect assets you gained from the LP thing were sunk into items then sold on market or just sold on the market, CCP cant really go punishing innocent players who just happened to buy yours or any other GSF members sell orders off the market because they happened to come along at that pertic time looking for xyz item etc, so it sounds like CCP choose to take back assets at the LP cost equiv instead. As said it's a guess, and if this is not the case then CCP should refund you them.
Quote:We told CCP about it in part by showing just how much it could be abused by the more autistic people in our community so they would realize how badly THEY screwed up. In response, they are punishing us for our good deed.
[Good deeds are spontaneous acts of kindness, accommodation, generosity, benevolence, charity, assistance, help, sympathy or aid, all performed with the simple intention of being helpful and no expectation for compensation of any kind
example of a doing a "Good Deed" as a selfless act of doing something good for another with no recognition ..not calling attention to the doer and not done in return for a favor
sorry but BULLS**T, you might have done it to show CCP just how badly this had been put into place but you also did it to line your own pockets as well, so good deed? not even close.
and YES CCP should own upto their own mistake on this and appologise about it
"Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy."
you complain about this but care to explain why your not complaining about this? :
GÇó Ally contracts have fixed length of two weeks GÇó Allies can not be part of mutual wars GÇô defender cannot hire allies into mutual wars and existing ally contracts are cancelled (with a 24 hour grace period) GÇó Cap on War Dec cost GÇô it will never have a base price of more than 500 mill regardless of corp/alliance membership (still affected by the number of wars you have declared) GÇó Added cost for hiring multiple allies for a war GÇô hiring more than one ally now incur a cost that goes to CONCORD. The cost rises exponentially the more allies are hired into the same war.
http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/total-war.html
because it favors GSF and allows you to break the chains of a mutual war dec as the aggressor anytime you choose WITHOUT consequences "opps forgot to pay the war dec bill, nvm...."
|
Lord Zim
937
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:00:00 -
[179] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:you complain about this but care to explain why your not complaining about this? : GÇó Ally contracts have fixed length of two weeks GÇó Allies can not be part of mutual wars GÇô defender cannot hire allies into mutual wars and existing ally contracts are cancelled (with a 24 hour grace period) GÇó Cap on War Dec cost GÇô it will never have a base price of more than 500 mill regardless of corp/alliance membership (still affected by the number of wars you have declared) GÇó Added cost for hiring multiple allies for a war GÇô hiring more than one ally now incur a cost that goes to CONCORD. The cost rises exponentially the more allies are hired into the same war. http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/total-war.htmlbecause it favors GSF and allows you to break the chains of a mutual war dec as the aggressor anytime you choose WITHOUT consequences "opps forgot to pay the war dec bill, nvm...." For us to whine about something, don't you think it should affect us even one iota? It doesn't. We don't live in hisec with GSF chars because we've basically been permanently wardecced the last uh ... probably every year GSF's been in existence, and GS before then. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:09:00 -
[180] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?
I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention. Delen Ormand wrote:Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it? Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.-
In icelands case iirc the bankers and the politicians actualy did suffer legal consequences for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Icelandic_financial_crisis_protests |
|
Lord Zim
937
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:18:00 -
[181] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/total-war.html Actually, heh, I hadn't read that one yet. So he's claiming we lost ships at a hysterical rate, panicked and whined?
The only reason I even knew we were at war with jade (I never read the wardec mails, they're irrelevant chaff) was Jade's whining about how CCP were changing the wardec mechanic because of goons, and totally and utterly ignoring the fact that tons of corps had tons of free wars, and that every war available to the general public was being dogpiled. Nooooo, that's certainly not it, it has to be the goon conspiracy.
Sigh. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7459
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:23:00 -
[182] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You are wrong. He used the keyboard, in the way CCP have already deemed to be OK.
GM Karidor wrote:1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard This really depends on the exact useof those keyboard macros. General guideline: Automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine
The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions.
Linkage.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
589
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:35:00 -
[183] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You are wrong. He used the keyboard, in the way CCP have already deemed to be OK. GM Karidor wrote:1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard This really depends on the exact useof those keyboard macros. General guideline: Automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine
The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions. Linkage. Maybe you should read what GM Karidor actually wrote: "A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions.".
How is using a macro to automate LP store purchases so you don't have to be at the computer (if you don't want to) not automated gameplay? |
Lord Zim
938
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:44:00 -
[184] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:How is using a macro to automate LP store purchases so you don't have to be at the computer (if you don't want to) not automated gameplay? Using a macro to press f1, f2, f3 is also "automated gameplay", I guess. vOV |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2519
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:49:00 -
[185] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You are wrong. He used the keyboard, in the way CCP have already deemed to be OK. GM Karidor wrote:1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard This really depends on the exact useof those keyboard macros. General guideline: Automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine
The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions. Linkage.
The quote you make doesn't in any way support your argument.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
589
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:51:00 -
[186] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Lexmana wrote:How is using a macro to automate LP store purchases so you don't have to be at the computer (if you don't want to) not automated gameplay? Using a macro to press f1, f2, f3 is also "automated gameplay", I guess. vOV But that particular use case was deemed OK. Didn't you read? What wasn't OK was to achieve or sustain automated gameplay. I ask you again, wasn't that exactly what they (supposedly) did? And they did it because no human could stand to do it in time. Thats why they (supposedly) had to use a bot. Tell me where I am wrong? |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:59:00 -
[187] - Quote
They did use an EULA violating macro.
You can make a macro to simultaneously press F1 F2 and F3 as it's an "one act" (like you can use a multi-box key repeater as it just instantly replicates what the player does, 1:1), while doing a sequence (A, B then C) is EULA breaching macroing. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
474
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:05:00 -
[188] - Quote
Confirming that using $200 keyboards that were previously okay to use in the game are now cheating because everyone can't afford a $200 keyboard.
Guess I was cheating until my keyboard broke on me. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:08:00 -
[189] - Quote
NickyYo wrote: Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.
I would be shocked if you either knew what an EULA was or could read and fully comprehend it. |
Powers Sa
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
237
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:12:00 -
[190] - Quote
A loophole is not a bug, a bug is mostly due poorly written code GÇô a loophole like this is due poorly thought-out game mechanics.
|
|
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:14:00 -
[191] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Goons are crying big Jewbal tears. It's working. Well done, CCP. Blatant antisemitism on a public forum. You should be ashamed of yourself. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
335
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:24:00 -
[192] - Quote
Frederick Sanger wrote:sabre906 wrote:Goons are crying big Jewbal tears. It's working. Well done, CCP. Blatant antisemitism on a public forum. You should be ashamed of yourself. As opposed to this page
http://eveinfo.net/wiki/inde~597.htm Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:26:00 -
[193] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Lexmana wrote:How is using a macro to automate LP store purchases so you don't have to be at the computer (if you don't want to) not automated gameplay? Using a macro to press f1, f2, f3 is also "automated gameplay", I guess. vOV But that particular use case was deemed OK. Didn't you read? What wasn't OK was to achieve or sustain automated gameplay. I ask you again, wasn't that exactly what they (supposedly) did? And they did it because no human could stand to do it in time. Thats why they (supposedly) had to use a bot. Tell me where I am wrong? I did read it, yes.
First of all, aryth said himself it was done over a period of weeks, it wasn't "14 hours grinding in one go". Second of all, what GM Karidor is talking about is automating something to an extent which humans can't. You've absolutely no evidence pointing to it being anything of the sort, yet you're jumping on the rumor which Jade is spreading.
Second of all, the example we've seen GMs use have been "to automate mining", which is a bit more involved than "press a key to press the accept button" would be, which is why I'm saying "f1 f2 f3 is also automated gameplay". It's literally "press f1, then f2, then f3".
If Aryth etc had made the macro so he could press the key and it would keep buying until he pressed another key, that would be something completely different. He didn't. |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:27:00 -
[194] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Confirming that using $200 keyboards that were previously okay to use in the game are now cheating because everyone can't afford a $200 keyboard.
Guess I was cheating until my keyboard broke on me.
Heh it's incredible the absurd hoops and loops people will do to ignore simple concepts when it's against their interests or shallow propaganda.
$200 keyboards programmed to press 3-4 keys together = NOT automated gameplay => OK. $200 keyboards programmed to press a timed sequence of keys to *automate gameplay* => shady to forbidden macro. If the sequence also involves conditionals => insta ban bot.
In this istance, the macro had to be programmed in a sequence, to greatly save time and / or effort or to make an excruciating (and thus reasonably impractical) human activity into a faster, automated and thus practical activity. The purpose is there, the motive is there. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
335
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:28:00 -
[195] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: For us to whine about something, don't you think it should affect us even one iota? It doesn't. We don't live in hisec with GSF chars because we've basically been permanently wardecced the last uh ... probably every year GSF's been in existence, and GS before then.
I am calling Bull on this one.
Maybe you do not come to Hi-sec but a hell of a lot of Goonswarm members do. They are everywhere.
There are so many in Hi-sec you should probably stop calling yourself a Null sec alliance.
So yes wardecs do effect a large number of Goonswarm members. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:29:00 -
[196] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Frederick Sanger wrote:sabre906 wrote:Goons are crying big Jewbal tears. It's working. Well done, CCP. Blatant antisemitism on a public forum. You should be ashamed of yourself. As opposed to this page http://eveinfo.net/wiki/inde~597.htm Your inability to correctly make a link is amazing. |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Confirming that using $200 keyboards that were previously okay to use in the game are now cheating because everyone can't afford a $200 keyboard.
Guess I was cheating until my keyboard broke on me. Heh it's incredible the absurd hoops and loops people will do to ignore simple concepts when it's against their interests or shallow propaganda. $200 keyboards programmed to press 3-4 keys together = NOT automated gameplay => OK. $200 keyboards programmed to press a timed sequence of keys to *automate gameplay* => shady to forbidden macro. If the sequence also involves conditionals => insta ban bot. In this istance, the macro had to be programmed in a sequence, to greatly save time and / or effort or to make an excruciating (and thus reasonably impractical) human activity into a faster, automated and thus practical activity. The purpose is there, the motive is there.
And how would you expect CCP to tell the difference?
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1182
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:31:00 -
[198] - Quote
this thread is so bad a rogue goon |
Lord Zim
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:32:00 -
[199] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:In this istance, the macro had to be programmed in a sequence, to greatly save time and / or effort or to make an excruciating (and thus reasonably impractical) human activity into a faster, automated and thus practical activity. The purpose is there, the motive is there. You're assuming. Remember, if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:47:00 -
[200] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Alaya Carrier wrote:In this istance, the macro had to be programmed in a sequence, to greatly save time and / or effort or to make an excruciating (and thus reasonably impractical) human activity into a faster, automated and thus practical activity. The purpose is there, the motive is there. You're assuming. Remember, if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me.
At least I am not cheating nor brown nosing cheaters. |
|
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
590
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:48:00 -
[201] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:What GM Karidor is talking about is automating something to an extent which humans can't You should probably stop posting because you are not helping your side at all. Are you actually implying that GM Karidor means that mining bots are OK? Because a human can mine right?
Lord Zim wrote:If Aryth etc had made the macro so he could press the key and it would keep buying until he pressed another key, that would be something completely different. He didn't. I don't know if Aryth macroed the LP store purchases. It was just suggested in the threadnought. But the only way you could know this is if you were him. Are you Aryth? |
Lord Zim
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 22:57:00 -
[202] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:At least I am not cheating nor brown nosing cheaters. Nor am I. vOv
Lexmana wrote:Lord Zim wrote:What GM Karidor is talking about is automating something to an extent which humans can't You should probably stop posting because you are not helping your side at all. Are you actually implying that mining bots are OK? Because a human can mine right? This would be a dumb assumption, since that's not even remotely what I said. Humans can mine, but they can't mine for f.ex 23.5 hours a day without missing a beat. There is difference.
Lexmana wrote:I don't know if Aryth macroed the LP store purchases. It was just suggested in the threadnought. But the only way you could know this is if you were him. Are you Aryth? I am not. |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
590
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 23:03:00 -
[203] - Quote
Fun fact: It was a goon that suggested macroing the LP store purchases. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 23:17:00 -
[204] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Blastcaps Madullier wrote:http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/total-war.html Actually, heh, I hadn't read that one yet. So he's claiming we lost ships at a hysterical rate, panicked and whined? The only reason I even knew we were at war with jade (I never read the wardec mails, they're irrelevant chaff) was Jade's whining about how CCP were changing the wardec mechanic because of goons, and totally and utterly ignoring the fact that tons of corps had tons of free wars, and that every war available to the general public was being dogpiled. Nooooo, that's certainly not it, it has to be the goon conspiracy. Sigh.
I never said it was, though was questioning why complaining about one thing but not the other :) and end of the day isn't eve built on player conflict? :) so would have thought CCP wouldn't have been that adverse to a somewhat free for all HS wise lol, nvm :) guess CCP decided the last changed wardec mechanics were not WAI and had unintended consequences lol
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 23:43:00 -
[205] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Lord Zim wrote:What GM Karidor is talking about is automating something to an extent which humans can't You should probably stop posting because you are not helping your side at all. Are you actually implying that GM Karidor means that mining bots are OK? Because a human can mine right? Lord Zim wrote:If Aryth etc had made the macro so he could press the key and it would keep buying until he pressed another key, that would be something completely different. He didn't. I don't know if Aryth macroed the LP store purchases. It was just suggested in the threadnought. But the only way you could know this is if you were him. Are you Aryth?
Aryth wrote:Pisov viet wrote: So, did you personally pushed a button for hundreds of implants and thousands of BPC? How long did it took you to redeem all that **** from the LP store?
G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch.
So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 23:45:00 -
[206] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol
depends, how painful is RSI? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 23:48:00 -
[207] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol depends, how painful is RSI?
Im betting you play more than I do; you tell me http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 23:58:00 -
[208] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dave stark wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol depends, how painful is RSI? Im betting you play more than I do; you tell me
doesn't mean he whacks off more than you :P
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
171
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 23:59:00 -
[209] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dave stark wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol depends, how painful is RSI? Im betting you play more than I do; you tell me doesn't mean he whacks off more than you :P
Also likely; Im a vampire. No sex drive
look it up. Malkavian http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7459
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 09:07:00 -
[210] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:The quote you make doesn't in any way support your argument.
Of course it does, you simply have an issue with understanding.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
|
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 10:11:00 -
[211] - Quote
Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves
and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics |
Lord Zim
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 10:13:00 -
[212] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves
and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics Let's see you eat that shoe when you're proven wrong. |
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels The Obsidian Front
263
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:06:00 -
[213] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:I'll try and help.
Ask yourself this: Why did CCP add Faction Wars in the first place? From what I read, CCP wanted Faction Wars to be a place where you could do more casual PVP, a place where newer players could perhaps start their PVP life. I suppose sorta like RVB. So, it wasn't supposed to be a place to earn untold trillion of iskies. But, if you did well in Faction Wars, you'd be more rewarded than if you didn't do well, perhaps enough to keep funding your PVP without having to jump into a PVE ship. To me, that sounds pretty good. Lower risk because your losses can be covered to a degree, and lots of reds to shoot.
The mechanic of "one faction player blows up opposing faction player ship, that faction player receives juicy LP in proportion to the estimated ISK value, including cargo items" makes sense when you think of two cruisers locking horns in epic fighting on a gate. The more isk you spent on your fittings, the better your odds of killing someone, but it also might make you harder to kill thus giving a bit more reward for killing that guy.
All this to me sounds reasonable.
But then, the some Goons show up to the party. "Who invited these guys?!" They join all sides with alts and drive freighter's filled to the rim with ore/items into their own waiting alts on the opposing side and reap ungodly amounts of LP's from the system. Then, using these ill gotten LP's, muck up the whole works with upgrading systems and the like, destroying the whole premise of Faction Wars and system control. They send the whole thing into disarray, much to the chagrin of everyone involved in Faction Wars. Not all of course as some of them were earning a bit more than they probably expected.
This was NOT the intent of the Faction Wars loyalty reward system. You can argue that the devs should have made sure this couldn't happen, but it can also be argued that anyone abusing this aspect of the reward system are breaking the EULA.
This Nisroc Angels Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
340
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:10:00 -
[214] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves
and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics Let's see you eat that shoe when you're proven wrong. Would be nice but I will bet on them just taking what they have and that is all. Just to keep everyone unhappy. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Mandos2k
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:13:00 -
[215] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.
But it wasn't
That's noones' fault but CCP.
What you are describing is the very nature of bugs and exploitable game mechanics which the TOS expressly forbids. You are advocating cheating.
Ris Dnalor wrote:Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.
They deliberately and in full knowledge intentionally looked for exploitable oversights to cheat. Their published smug summaries clearly showed that.
The only redeeming feature Goons have is that they made it public, which they deserve credit for. Everything else was plain old cheating. |
Lord Zim
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:16:00 -
[216] - Quote
Ynot Eyob wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:I'll try and help.
Ask yourself this: Why did CCP add Faction Wars in the first place? From what I read, CCP wanted Faction Wars to be a place where you could do more casual PVP, a place where newer players could perhaps start their PVP life. I suppose sorta like RVB. So, it wasn't supposed to be a place to earn untold trillion of iskies. But, if you did well in Faction Wars, you'd be more rewarded than if you didn't do well, perhaps enough to keep funding your PVP without having to jump into a PVE ship. To me, that sounds pretty good. Lower risk because your losses can be covered to a degree, and lots of reds to shoot.
The mechanic of "one faction player blows up opposing faction player ship, that faction player receives juicy LP in proportion to the estimated ISK value, including cargo items" makes sense when you think of two cruisers locking horns in epic fighting on a gate. The more isk you spent on your fittings, the better your odds of killing someone, but it also might make you harder to kill thus giving a bit more reward for killing that guy.
All this to me sounds reasonable.
But then, the some Goons show up to the party. "Who invited these guys?!" They join all sides with alts and drive freighter's filled to the rim with ore/items into their own waiting alts on the opposing side and reap ungodly amounts of LP's from the system. Then, using these ill gotten LP's, muck up the whole works with upgrading systems and the like, destroying the whole premise of Faction Wars and system control. They send the whole thing into disarray, much to the chagrin of everyone involved in Faction Wars. Not all of course as some of them were earning a bit more than they probably expected.
This was NOT the intent of the Faction Wars loyalty reward system. You can argue that the devs should have made sure this couldn't happen, but it can also be argued that anyone abusing this aspect of the reward system are breaking the EULA.
This So what part of the EULA did they break? |
Lord Zim
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:18:00 -
[217] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves
and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics Let's see you eat that shoe when you're proven wrong. Would be nice but I will bet on them just taking what they have and that is all. Just to keep everyone unhappy. And since "taken what they have" is more than "what was gained from this heist", what would have to be done to keep "everyone" from being "unhappy"? "ban all goons"? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
343
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:37:00 -
[218] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves
and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics Let's see you eat that shoe when you're proven wrong. Would be nice but I will bet on them just taking what they have and that is all. Just to keep everyone unhappy. And since "taken what they have" is more than "what was gained from this heist", what would have to be done to keep "everyone" from being "unhappy"? "ban all goons"? You should know by now that although I despise some of the stupid things Goonswarm members do, EvE would be worse off without Goonswarm, would be helpful if there was more sov war ect.. but that's mechanics.
As to this the precedent exits for being a moron with an exploit. The POS bug and the punishment that followed. I think that would be fitting especially as they rubbed CCP's face in it and actually broke another rule to do so.
But they won't these 5 should count them selves happy if all they get is what has already been done. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:41:00 -
[219] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Blastcaps Madullier wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dave stark wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol depends, how painful is RSI? Im betting you play more than I do; you tell me doesn't mean he whacks off more than you :P Also likely; Im a vampire. No sex drive look it up. Malkavian
OMG they are here. Beware. Next winter Batman is coming to EVE.
|
Lord Zim
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:43:00 -
[220] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:As to this the precedent exits for being a moron with an exploit. The POS bug and the punishment that followed. Except that was 1) Abuse of a programming bug, not creative use of a well-documented public game mechanic. 2) Abuse of said programming bug was done over a period of years.
By that logic, people who abused insurance fraud, refined POS bits into various PI components, bought PA to refine into nocx whenever nocx got past 900 isk, used titans to go POS bowling, used tracking titans to take over whole regions etc, should also be banned. |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
343
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:43:00 -
[221] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:
OMG they are here. Beware. Next winter Batman is coming to EVE.
Is that the comic version, if so which one? The camp version or the early movie one or the late movie one? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
343
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:44:00 -
[222] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:As to this the precedent exits for being a moron with an exploit. The POS bug and the punishment that followed. Except that was 1) Abuse of a programming bug, not creative use of a well-documented public game mechanic. 2) Abuse of said programming bug was done over a period of years. By that logic, people who abused insurance fraud, refined POS bits into various PI components, bought PA to refine into nocx whenever nocx got past 900 isk, used titans to go POS bowling, used tracking titans to take over whole regions etc, should also be banned. Just as Morons who waste resources by requiring a know bug to have to be rapidly repaired while so much more in EvE needs fixing should be banned. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 11:58:00 -
[223] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:As to this the precedent exits for being a moron with an exploit. The POS bug and the punishment that followed. Except that was 1) Abuse of a programming bug, not creative use of a well-documented public game mechanic. 2) Abuse of said programming bug was done over a period of years. By that logic, people who abused insurance fraud, refined POS bits into various PI components, bought PA to refine into nocx whenever nocx got past 900 isk, used titans to go POS bowling, used tracking titans to take over whole regions etc, should also be banned. Just as Morons who waste resources by requiring a known bug to have to be rapidly repaired while so much more in EvE needs fixing should be banned. So they are partly responsible for this 672MB patch and should be banhammered to hell and back. In other words, ban everyone. |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:08:00 -
[224] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:
OMG they are here. Beware. Next winter Batman is coming to EVE.
Is that the comic version, if so which one? The camp version or the early movie one or the late movie one?
It's a new version. Space Batman, made specially for CQ and WiS features. |
Vicata Heth
EldarRiders Stainwagon.
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:13:00 -
[225] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.
They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.
They did it really really well.
If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.
But it wasn't
That's noones' fault but CCP.
Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.
The economy will recover itself in time.
But the sandbox will take far longer to recover if CCP acts too harshly in their response.
I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.
Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please? |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
1054
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:15:00 -
[226] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:By that logic, people who abused insurance fraud, refined POS bits into various PI components, bought PA to refine into nocx whenever nocx got past 900 isk, used titans to go POS bowling, used tracking titans to take over whole regions etc, should also be banned.
I'd be OK with all of that. Mane 614
|
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:17:00 -
[227] - Quote
Vicata Heth wrote:Ris Dnalor wrote:I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.
They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.
They did it really really well.
If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.
But it wasn't
That's noones' fault but CCP.
Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.
The economy will recover itself in time.
But the sandbox will take far longer to recover if CCP acts too harshly in their response.
I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it. Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please?
That's stupid, we're players. We pay to play, what you're saying is CCP's job.
|
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:20:00 -
[228] - Quote
I didn't wanted to get involved is this thread but can't avoid replying a stupid statement. |
Lord Zim
941
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:20:00 -
[229] - Quote
Vicata Heth wrote:I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.
Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please? I expect you'll do the honourable thing and call for bans of everyone who's insurance frauded, bought PA to refine for nocx, bought POSes to refine into PI components prior to PI being released proper, people using various tricks such as ECCM to become unprobable, titans to POS bowl with, tracking titans to take over whole regions etc etc etc, too?
I mean, wouldn't want you to look unfair, now would we? |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
318
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:25:00 -
[230] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vicata Heth wrote:I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.
Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please? I expect you'll do the honourable thing and call for bans of everyone who's insurance frauded, bought PA to refine for nocx, bought POSes to refine into PI components prior to PI being released proper, people using various tricks such as ECCM to become unprobable, titans to POS bowl with, tracking titans to take over whole regions etc etc etc, too? I mean, wouldn't want you to look unfair, now would we?
You forgot those cloacky alts abusing game mechanics to make anom sites not respawn, this was known and over known by CCP and talked about in hundreds pages/posts
Ships refining to get more minerals than those you needed to build them
And the list is so long but worthless to explain to brainless birds. brb |
|
Vicata Heth
EldarRiders Stainwagon.
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:30:00 -
[231] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vicata Heth wrote:I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.
Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please? I expect you'll do the honourable thing and call for bans of everyone who's insurance frauded, bought PA to refine for nocx, bought POSes to refine into PI components prior to PI being released proper, people using various tricks such as ECCM to become unprobable, titans to POS bowl with, tracking titans to take over whole regions etc etc etc, too? I mean, wouldn't want you to look unfair, now would we?
Also, none of your examples are on the same scale as the FW manipulation as I'll call it. My opinion is that the problem should be solved, and any ill gotten gains reversed. They contacted CCP and informed them about it, didn't post the manipulation details beforehand either. So in my eyes that should keep them clear of any bans or losses. However I also think they were trying to take the **** with it, and wouldn't be surprised to see they were trying to keep some of the isk either. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
97
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:32:00 -
[232] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.
Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release? |
Lord Zim
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:35:00 -
[233] - Quote
Vicata Heth wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Vicata Heth wrote:I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.
Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please? I expect you'll do the honourable thing and call for bans of everyone who's insurance frauded, bought PA to refine for nocx, bought POSes to refine into PI components prior to PI being released proper, people using various tricks such as ECCM to become unprobable, titans to POS bowl with, tracking titans to take over whole regions etc etc etc, too? I mean, wouldn't want you to look unfair, now would we? Also, none of your examples are on the same scale as the FW manipulation as I'll call it. So you're not looking for legality to base whether or not punishments should be doled out, but isk value.
Can you put an isk value on the PI manipulation? Can you put an isk value on the PA refining manipulation? Can you put an isk value on the usage of gunmining to build tons of titans, supercarriers and shipping tons of drone poo to hisec, only to be redistributed onwards across hisec/lowsec/nullsec to be used for further manufacturing? Can you put an isk value on what the gunmining's impact on miners' income was? |
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:38:00 -
[234] - Quote
People still saying goons got trillions of ISK.
They didn't. They got implants, bpcs, and datacores worth trillions at today's prices.
It was going to take them many months to actually cash those items, probably in a depressing market.
The final isk/time gain might have ended in the range of at least one past loophole I can think of, the trillions out of which were never nullified by CCP of course.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
351
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:39:00 -
[235] - Quote
Alexandra Delarge wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first. Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release? Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug.
And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans.
Every thing in life contains bugs that result in stupid things occurring if they are abused that is why we have laws and rules.
Otherwise anarchy would rule supreme, it doesn't in most parts of the world and morons who deliberately break rules and then yell about it to the media get punished. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:43:00 -
[236] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug. CCP have stated repeatedly that they're turning over a new leaf and not releasing things before they're satisfied with their quality. The CCP of olde would've released things and say "we'll fix it later". See: Captain's Quarters.
Frying Doom wrote:And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans. Ev0ke abused a programming bug for years. Insurance fraud, POS bit refinery into PI bits, PA refinery into nocx, titan POS bowling and tracking titans were the creative use of published in-game mechanics, which have never been punished before, at all.
Saying "the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans" doesn't match up with previous incidents. |
Vicata Heth
EldarRiders Stainwagon.
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:53:00 -
[237] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug. CCP have stated repeatedly that they're turning over a new leaf and not releasing things before they're satisfied with their quality. The CCP of olde would've released things and say "we'll fix it later". See: Captain's Quarters. Frying Doom wrote:And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans. Ev0ke abused a programming bug for years. Insurance fraud, POS bit refinery into PI bits, PA refinery into nocx, titan POS bowling and tracking titans were the creative use of published in-game mechanics, which have never been punished before, at all. Saying "the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans" doesn't match up with previous incidents.
So clearly we should let it continue even though it has a negative effect on the game. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
352
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:54:00 -
[238] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug. CCP have stated repeatedly that they're turning over a new leaf and not releasing things before they're satisfied with their quality. The CCP of olde would've released things and say "we'll fix it later". See: Captain's Quarters. Frying Doom wrote:And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans. Ev0ke abused a programming bug for years. Insurance fraud, POS bit refinery into PI bits, PA refinery into nocx, titan POS bowling and tracking titans were the creative use of published in-game mechanics, which have never been punished before, at all. Saying "the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans" doesn't match up with previous incidents. Yes so we should all be happy now that CCP are responding quicker to people breaking the rules. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Ryan
Quantum Cats Syndicate
534
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:55:00 -
[239] - Quote
Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.
When a child is violated are you not appalled?
Yet when that child is a goon you cheer? -á"Nerf it cause I can't fly it". I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Vicata Heth
EldarRiders Stainwagon.
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:57:00 -
[240] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.
When a child is violated are you not appalled?
Yet when that child is a goon you cheer?
Liked for implying goons are children :D |
|
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:58:00 -
[241] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Alexandra Delarge wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first. Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release? Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug. And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans. Every thing in life contains bugs that result in stupid things occurring if they are abused that is why we have laws and rules. Otherwise anarchy would rule supreme, it doesn't in most parts of the world and morons who deliberately break rules and then yell about it to the media get punished.
Anarchy doesn't rule. Anarchy is anti-ruling. Abstracting other stupid content from post. I don't want to waste my time. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
97
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:58:00 -
[242] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Alexandra Delarge wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first. Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release? Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug. And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans. Every thing in life contains bugs that result in stupid things occurring if they are abused that is why we have laws and rules. Otherwise anarchy would rule supreme, it doesn't in most parts of the world and morons who deliberately break rules and then yell about it to the media get punished. If it was a known bug then surely CCP would have fixed it before release or made a post explaining it was a bug.
Everything in life contains bugs? I have no idea what you are talking about but I think it would be best if we stuck to the mechanics/rules of computer games when discussing this issue.
Anyway, the 'rules and laws' which you talk about are made by CCP and they ignored feedback when people told them that their 'rules and laws' were not good enough.
You should probably stop calling people names, confusing real life laws and rules with computer game mechanics, stop making excuses for CCP and ask yourself 'How did CCP manage to ignore feedback that explicitely mentioned this issue and release it anyway?' |
Lord Zim
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:07:00 -
[243] - Quote
Vicata Heth wrote:So clearly we should let it continue even though it has a negative effect on the game. The precedence, which Frying Doom keeps harping on about, on how CCP dealt with this kind of situation in the past has been to tell people it's now considered an exploit, punish those who persist in using it in that fashion (citation needed, I haven't really heard of many people being punished for doing this), change the mechanic to stop people from the creative way they were using it, and move on. This has apparently changed.
I expect the devblog will be detailing that this is the new line with which CCP will deal with any creative use of any game mechanic in future. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
352
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:08:00 -
[244] - Quote
Alexandra Delarge wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Alexandra Delarge wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first. Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release? Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug. And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans. Every thing in life contains bugs that result in stupid things occurring if they are abused that is why we have laws and rules. Otherwise anarchy would rule supreme, it doesn't in most parts of the world and morons who deliberately break rules and then yell about it to the media get punished. If it was a known bug then surely CCP would have fixed it before release or made a post explaining it was a bug. Everything in life contains bugs? I have no idea what you are talking about but I think it would be best if we stuck to the mechanics/rules of computer games when discussing this issue. Anyway, the 'rules and laws' which you talk about are made by CCP and they ignored feedback when people told them that their 'rules and laws' were not good enough. You should probably stop calling people names, confusing real life laws and rules with computer game mechanics, stop making excuses for CCP and ask yourself 'How did CCP manage to ignore feedback that explicitely mentioned this issue and release it anyway?' We are not taking about a characters perspective this is in the real world. In the EvE universe the planets are not run by computer code. Out here in the real world it is. We are not in a computer game and here in real life actions have consequences. They broke multiple rules that exist in the real world most notably the ones in the section marked Banable Offences.
But I cannot say I am aware of people telling CCP that there rules and laws were flawed just the game mechanics. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
667
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:08:00 -
[245] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.
When a child is violated are you not appalled?
Yet when that child is a goon you cheer?
That is one of the most sensible posts.
The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
352
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:10:00 -
[246] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vicata Heth wrote:So clearly we should let it continue even though it has a negative effect on the game. The precedence, which Frying Doom keeps harping on about, on how CCP dealt with this kind of situation in the past has been to tell people it's now considered an exploit, punish those who persist in using it in that fashion (citation needed, I haven't really heard of many people being punished for doing this), change the mechanic to stop people from the creative way they were using it, and move on. This has apparently changed. I expect the devblog will be detailing that this is the new line with which CCP will deal with any creative use of any game mechanic in future. They broke the rules, pure and simple.
They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple.
They should be punished pure and simple. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
352
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:11:00 -
[247] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:Yet when that child is a goon you cheer?
If the child is playing EvE the child needs to go. You have to be 13 to play
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
490
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:15:00 -
[248] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.
When a child is violated are you not appalled?
Yet when that child is a goon you cheer?
Yes as the child in general is part of a greifer org (self admitted) who's motto is "we are not here to ruin the game, we are here to ruin your game "
So excuse us if we don't shed a tear when there own actions turn around and bite them in the ass....
Lol sympathy for Goons.
Tal |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:20:00 -
[249] - Quote
How many of you started reading the forums after being ganked at Jita Burn? A lot of senseless hatred in this thread. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
352
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:22:00 -
[250] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:How many of you started reading the forums after being ganked at Jita Burn? Lots of senseless hatred in this thread. I doubt anyone who is on this forum or reads it was in Jita during the burn. Well except the Goons of course. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
|
Lord Zim
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:24:00 -
[251] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:They broke the rules, pure and simple.
Frying Doom wrote:They should be punished pure and simple. At the time of the actions in question, it was not deemed an exploit, and it was not utilizing a programming bug. Exactly like insurance fraud, PI, PA, titan bowling and tracking titans etc etc etc. Which means that the way CCP is handling matters of this type has changed in this case.
Frying Doom wrote:They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple. Are you trying to say that the reaction is a revenge act? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
352
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:34:00 -
[252] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple. Are you trying to say that the reaction is a revenge act? No just they managed to make CCP look bad and break a rule at the same time. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:41:00 -
[253] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple. Are you trying to say that the reaction is a revenge act? No just they managed to make CCP look bad and break a rule at the same time. Enlighten me. Wich rule did they broke? I dont want to read a 150 page post looking for it. I read the EULA though. |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:44:00 -
[254] - Quote
Just to make things clear. I'm just the average curious guy. I have no simpaty for the Goons. Although, as an EVE player, I have a lot of interest in how CCP handles different game actions. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
352
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:54:00 -
[255] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple. Are you trying to say that the reaction is a revenge act? No just they managed to make CCP look bad and break a rule at the same time. Enlighten me. Wich rule did they broke? I dont want to read a 150 page thread looking for it. I read the EULA though. Rules, multiple and if you can only be bothered reading the EULA you should not be playing eve. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 13:56:00 -
[256] - Quote
'multiple' is not even close to be an acceptable answer. Begone, troll. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
1055
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:02:00 -
[257] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.
When a child is violated are you not appalled?
Yet when that child is a goon you cheer?
Wow, you've got a well-constructed strawman here, in which you compare Goons to children and the punishment they received to sexual assault. Mane 614
|
Lord Zim
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:04:00 -
[258] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple. Are you trying to say that the reaction is a revenge act? No just they managed to make CCP look bad and break a rule at the same time. So you're calling insurance fraud, PI manip, PA refining, tracking titans etc "not bugs", then? I mean, they were design flaws which people used to "gain an unfair advantage over other players", yet no punishment were doled out in any way, shape or form.
So something has changed. Are you saying CCP are doing this just to be vindictive over being made to look bad?
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:Enlighten me. Wich rule did they broke? I dont want to read a 150 page thread looking for it. I read the EULA though. The one I keep hearing is http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp, point 23, but by that definition all the players who did the above (and more) should also be banned or negwalleted or have their assets gained during that heist (and then some) seized, yet nothing happened at all to them. The only thing which happened was that the usage pattern was deemed an exploit (at which point you used it at your own peril), the game mechanic was changed, and everything just kept on trucking. |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:11:00 -
[259] - Quote
I see another GOON pet has head up arse again. lets take another look at this with an anology from real life Gallon of Gasoline = Legal Glass Jar = Legl Rag = Legal Match = Legal yes those are all legal but when combine them it become Molotov Cocktail is ILLEGAL. Which basicly yhe GOONs did and tossed it on Sreegs desk.
I seen in a few games where a group were problem that the DEV when asked stated "we know about and are addressing the issue" but you go and play with the problem not knowing if they are considering it an Exploit, bug or coding issue. COMMON SENSE would dictate that they may consider this a an exploit and should not do it. for Lack of thinking you got in trouble. Just man up and face the consequences but we all know that the GOONs/PETs that get caught doing this have no idea to think other then seeing dollar signs.
Have fun kids they deserve what they get. |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:21:00 -
[260] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:The one I keep hearing is http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp, point 23, but by that definition all the players who did the above (and more) should also be banned or negwalleted or have their assets gained during that heist (and then some) seized, yet nothing happened at all to them. The only thing which happened was that the usage pattern was deemed an exploit (at which point you used it at your own peril), the game mechanic was changed, and everything just kept on trucking.
That rule doesn't apply since it wasn't a bug Goons exploited. They just figured out the game formula for calculating LP payout and abused it. That's the same thing players had to do when CCP released thermodynamics. The difference is the mechanic for LP payout was a really poor one wich wasn't tested properly before release to prevent this type of abuse... AND I believe it was not expected from CCP for it to be of any player focus. I do agree that Goons should't keep the profit from it, since keeping trillions from a design flaw is bit of game breaking. Now being punished for it isn't right. They probably deserve some punishment in-game for other actions but not from CCP. What thid they get from it? Account ban doesn't sound right at all. |
|
Signal11th
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:23:00 -
[261] - Quote
Seems to me being more intelligent than a CCP developer is considered an exploit nowadays.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:26:00 -
[262] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Lord Ryan wrote:Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.
When a child is violated are you not appalled?
Yet when that child is a goon you cheer? Wow, you've got a well-constructed strawman here, in which you compare Goons to children and the punishment they received to sexual assault.
Wow, a debate specialist here. You built the strawmen, brother. The poster you quoted didn't made a comparation. He made a metaphor.
EDIT: nvm, I'm not a debate specialist either. |
Lord Zim
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:28:00 -
[263] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:What thid they get from it? Account ban doesn't sound right at all. From what I've gathered, all the assets made from this heist seized/removed from the account and the removal of quite a few datacores bought legitimately prior to this whole debacle, in addition to the ISK they spent. No account ban. |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:33:00 -
[264] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:What thid they get from it? Account ban doesn't sound right at all. From what I've gathered, all the assets made from this heist seized/removed from the account and the removal of quite a few datacores bought legitimately prior to this whole debacle, in addition to the ISK they spent. No account ban.
Then I'm outta here. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:42:00 -
[265] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Vicata Heth wrote:So clearly we should let it continue even though it has a negative effect on the game. The precedence, which Frying Doom keeps harping on about, on how CCP dealt with this kind of situation in the past has been to tell people it's now considered an exploit, punish those who persist in using it in that fashion (citation needed, I haven't really heard of many people being punished for doing this), change the mechanic to stop people from the creative way they were using it, and move on. This has apparently changed. I expect the devblog will be detailing that this is the new line with which CCP will deal with any creative use of any game mechanic in future. They broke the rules, pure and simple. They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple. They should be punished pure and simple.
And if they dont, yet another riot and lost subs pure and simple
Frying Doom wrote: No just they managed to make CCP look bad and break a rule at the same time.
Which funnily enough is also against the rules. Either by making it harder for them to operate the game (by making them look bad) or by saying they are idiots (attacking CCP which if you look at those new rules is a permabann offense without ever being reviewed) http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:50:00 -
[266] - Quote
They are not being punished. CCP just made a mistake when fixing the mess from the FW design flaw. Some datacores from Goonswarm assets that will probably be given back if they are telling the truth. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
880
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:52:00 -
[267] - Quote
NO rule was broken. Goons abused a mechanic that CCP didn't think through.
Just like insurance. Just like the PA. Just like PI initially.
There is no rule against abusing intentional mechanics that are just bad ideas.
However, if CCP decides that the rules were broken, then I expect them to dish out the hand of punishment to everyone who made use of the mechanic. And everyone in FW who benefited. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
1056
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:55:00 -
[268] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:Wow, a debate specialist here. You built the strawmen, brother. The poster you quoted didn't made a comparation. He made a metaphor.
Not only did he make a comparison to child abuse right after invoking the goons by name, he made a direct connection to goons by saying "if that child is a goon". So yeah, he directly compared CCP punishing goons for exploiting to child abuse. I concede that may not actually be a strawman, but it's certainly a false and misleading comparison.
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:EDIT: nvm, I'm not a debate specialist either.
Clearly. Mane 614
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:00:00 -
[269] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:They are not being punished. CCP just made a mistake when fixing the mess from the FW design flaw. Some datacores from Goonswarm assets that will probably be given back if they are telling the truth.
the datacores were part of it lying Goons???
NO WAI
Quote:The original babby step was to use hydromagnetic datacores. Hydrocores had a CCP Value of 317,000 ISK (pay attention to this number, because itGÇÖs important). When we bought Minmatar into Tier 4, we were rewarded with a 50% reduction in both LP and ISK cost of our purchases from their loyalty store, so one datacore from the LP store at Tier 4 cost 25 LP and 25,000 isk. When the hauler with the datacore inside was duly murdered by our Minmatar loyalist, it rewarded the murderer with 63.5 LP. Blowing up datacores in this manner grossed enough LP to cash out into implants (at 2000 ISK/LP) to cover the isk portion of the cost of the datacore, while still netting excess LP in the process. Essentially, we were able to convert ISK to LP at the rate of 1390 ISK per LP, then immediately sell the produced LP for 1.5 times what we paid.
cause like they said; the datacores were totally not part of it
Corina Jarr wrote:NO rule was broken. Goons abused a mechanic that CCP didn't think through.
Just like insurance. Just like the PA. Just like PI initially.
There is no rule against abusing intentional mechanics that are just bad ideas.
However, if CCP decides that the rules were broken, then I expect them to dish out the hand of punishment to everyone who made use of the mechanic. And everyone in FW who benefited.
lol youre trying to get all of minmatar FW banned cute http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:02:00 -
[270] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:Wow, a debate specialist here. You built the strawmen, brother. The poster you quoted didn't made a comparation. He made a metaphor. Not only did he make a comparison to child abuse right after invoking the goons by name, he made a direct connection to goons by saying "if that child is a goon". So yeah, he directly compared CCP punishing goons for exploiting to child abuse. I concede that may not actually be a strawman, but it's certainly a false and misleading comparison. Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:EDIT: nvm, I'm not a debate specialist either. Clearly.
I think he just meant Goons are innocent. I wouldn't say they are innocent as children, but they really didn't commited any crimes regarding EULA/TOS. Anyway, read my last post, it most probably isn't punishment hence none of this makes any sense.
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Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:04:00 -
[271] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:Wow, a debate specialist here. You built the strawmen, brother. The poster you quoted didn't made a comparation. He made a metaphor. Not only did he make a comparison to child abuse right after invoking the goons by name, he made a direct connection to goons by saying "if that child is a goon". So yeah, he directly compared CCP punishing goons for exploiting to child abuse. I concede that may not actually be a strawman, but it's certainly a false and misleading comparison. Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:EDIT: nvm, I'm not a debate specialist either. Clearly. I think he just meant Goons are innocent. I wouldn't say they are innocent as children, but they really didn't commited any crimes regarding EULA/TOS. Anyway, read my last post, it most probably isn't punishment hence none of this makes any sense.
unless you dont count Sreeg as CCP then CCP disagrees in the thread that got locked. He says several times that it was an exploit
Also; wheres that dev blog they were supposed to do on Monday? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:05:00 -
[272] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: At the time of the actions in question, it was not deemed an exploit, and it was not utilizing a programming bug. Exactly like insurance fraud, PI, PA, titan bowling and tracking titans etc etc etc. Which means that the way CCP is handling matters of this type has changed in this case.
You spell it like CCP having finally turned into a serious company is bad.
No, it's excellent news!
Now, if only they could also reverse PI and Pax amarria and POS dupe exploits, then it'd be golden, but I doubt they have backlogs dating so far back.
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Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:05:00 -
[273] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Lord Zim wrote: At the time of the actions in question, it was not deemed an exploit, and it was not utilizing a programming bug. Exactly like insurance fraud, PI, PA, titan bowling and tracking titans etc etc etc. Which means that the way CCP is handling matters of this type has changed in this case.
You spell it like CCP having finally turned into a serious company is bad. No, it's excellent news!Now, if only they could also reverse PI and Pax amarria and POS dupe exploits, then it'd be golden, but I doubt they have backlogs dating so far back.
The logs they show nothing!! http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Major Killz
State Protectorate Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:10:00 -
[274] - Quote
An exploit is not an illegal exploit untill it's discovered. Once CCP discovered a flaw in its mechanic. Then and only then can a statement be released on whether or not a said action. In this case a exploit is illegal. Remember. exploitation is inherit. Examples of this; scamming, diplomacy, espionage. Gaining whealth @ the expense of others. Which covers anything of valure is transfered from one entity to another (trading, barter or trade).
So, technically the Goons broke no rules. Mainly, because they weren't written. In the real world. Drugs like Ecstasy was legal for the longest time because it was new and not widely distributed. Few law makers had any idea of the drugs effects or side effects. Once they did. A move was made to make it illegal. There by "safe guarding the public good". Those who made money off Ecstasy before the laws where made. Were not arrested and there was no claw backs.
CCP shouldn't take away any funds made. They should return it all if they took any away and move on. Only players acting in the save fashion after the rules are made are subject to claw backs and punishments. |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:32:00 -
[275] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
I think he just meant Goons are innocent. I wouldn't say they are innocent as children, but they really didn't commited any crimes regarding EULA/TOS. Anyway, read my last post, it most probably isn't punishment hence none of this makes any sense.
unless you dont count Sreeg as CCP then CCP disagrees in the thread that got locked. He says several times that it was an exploit
Also; wheres that dev blog they were supposed to do on Monday?[/quote]
Need some reference. Afaik last comment locking the thread was a positive one.
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Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:42:00 -
[276] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:An exploit is not an illegal exploit untill it's discovered. Once CCP discovered a flaw in its mechanic. Then and only then can a statement be released on whether or not a said action. In this case a exploit is illegal. Remember. exploitation is inherit. Examples of this; scamming, diplomacy, espionage. Gaining whealth @ the expense of others. Which covers anything of valure is transfered from one entity to another (trading, barter or trade).
So, technically the Goons broke no rules. Mainly, because they weren't written. In the real world. Drugs like Ecstasy was legal for the longest time because it was new and not widely distributed. Few law makers had any idea of the drugs effects or side effects. Once they did. A move was made to make it illegal. There by "safe guarding the public good". Those who made money off Ecstasy before the laws where made. Were not arrested and there was no claw backs.
CCP shouldn't take away any funds made. They should return it all if they took any away and move on. Only players acting in the save fashion after the rules are made are subject to claw backs and punishments.
It was not an exploit. They abused a weak mechanic design. The profit they made was gamebreaking so I think CCP is right in removing the assets gained from the abuse. Now if they removed more than that I don't know but I wouldn't consider it a punishment due the situation. It's a lot of mess to fix so it's an understandable mistake. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:59:00 -
[277] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:An exploit is not an illegal exploit untill it's discovered. Once CCP discovered a flaw in its mechanic. Then and only then can a statement be released on whether or not a said action. In this case a exploit is illegal. Remember. exploitation is inherit. Examples of this; scamming, diplomacy, espionage. Gaining whealth @ the expense of others. Which covers anything of valure is transfered from one entity to another (trading, barter or trade).
So, technically the Goons broke no rules. Mainly, because they weren't written. In the real world. Drugs like Ecstasy was legal for the longest time because it was new and not widely distributed. Few law makers had any idea of the drugs effects or side effects. Once they did. A move was made to make it illegal. There by "safe guarding the public good". Those who made money off Ecstasy before the laws where made. Were not arrested and there was no claw backs.
CCP shouldn't take away any funds made. They should return it all if they took any away and move on. Only players acting in the save fashion after the rules are made are subject to claw backs and punishments. THIS^^^^
CCP was told when the Dev blog on FW came out that the system could be gamed, and this might be a problem. All CCP had to do was make a statement that the LP payout "might" have a potential exploit, anybody caught abusing that exploit would be punished, with a "we are watching" at the end, and nobody would have abused the flaw. (Well nobody with any intelligence.)
When CCP lays down the law and says something is an exploit, it is. If they don't say anything, it is fair game to push the mechanic to the edge and beyond, even if the results are hilariously out of wack with what CCP "intended."
Untill 21/6/12, CCP hadn't said anything about FW LP payouts for kills, having an exploit in the mechanics. Anybody doing the (now) exploit was not breaking any "rules," was not violating EULA, or TOS, as it wasn't "illegal" untill CCP came out with that statement. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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RAW23
The MD Elite
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:29:00 -
[278] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves *snip* CCPIt-¦s not allowed to insult CCP and it-¦s Member, so i fixed your post! See Forum Rules for further Information
ISD Dosnix
I imagine that CCP has had its Member insulted one too many times. But instead of new rules, why not just follow up one of those emails about Member enlargement. The best way to not have your Member insulted is to have a significant one. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
125
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:51:00 -
[279] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves *snip* CCPIt-¦s not allowed to insult CCP and it-¦s Member, so i fixed your post! See Forum Rules for further Information
ISD Dosnix
I imagine that CCP has had its Member insulted one too many times. But instead of new rules, why not just follow up one of those emails about Member enlargement. The best way to not have your Member insulted is to have a significant one. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yfp_7zpY-dE/SntQVZ5i1rI/AAAAAAAAACg/XER9OFvn4tU/s1600-h/smiling_bob.jpg "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:53:00 -
[280] - Quote
Just because CCP had not officially stated that the vulnerability was an exploit, it does not mean it wasn't an exploit.
If I discovered a new way to hack into your personal computer that nobody else knew about, therefore it was not documented, and I proceeded to hack into your computer using this vulnerability - would that be OK with you? Since nobody has said that i can't do it - your firewalls, security measures and operating system are working as intended. SO you should be fine with me poking my nose around in your PC? - no, it is exploiting a vulnerability to do something illegal, whether its is documented or not.
Your arguments hold no weight. It was abuse of a vulnerability in the game mechanics, which IS by definition called an exploit. The OP of the 4x4 thread stated it was an exploit himself. CCP's own rules state that anybody knowingly abusing an exploit can be punished.
So, previous exploits like the PI bug, PA, and Insurance payouts, and all these others you keep mentioning obviously were not punished hard enough, since people still think they can get away with abusing exploits - to the point where they gloat about it on the forums, rub the game designers face in it, and make a mockery of the game itself and those who play it.
Its time CCP HTFU and make an example of these arrogant cheaters with extreme punishment that clearly says - "if you break the rules, you gonna pay for it". This might actually deter future attacks on the game, instead of the lame slap on the wrist, oh you naughty pod pilot stuff we have seen in the past. The guys who did this are not idiots, they know what they did was wrong.
This will in no way "break the sandbox". Even the sandbox needs rules to maintain the integrity of sandbox style play.
Initially i was of the opinion that just taking the profits away would be enough of a punishment - i now believe bans are in order for those involved.
CCP - you need to send a clear message to overt future abuse of your product, otherwise people will continue to ruin your game. |
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Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:56:00 -
[281] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:CCP - you need to send a clear message to overt future abuse of your product, otherwise people will continue to ruin your game.
and how was the game ruined? |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:58:00 -
[282] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:CCP - you need to send a clear message to overt future abuse of your product, otherwise people will continue to ruin your game. and how was the game ruined?
Faction war was screwed over. CCP also had to manually reset the price of certain items. Not broken? |
Vicata Heth
EldarRiders Stainwagon.
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:16:00 -
[283] - Quote
Stop making comparisons to real life. Since when is EVE = Real Life?
You can't legally scam people in real life, or deliberately mislead people in contracts. Should people be punished for that too?
CCP reversed the ill gotten gains simply because it was too large an amount/too game breaking to let them keep it. Had they only obtained 1b from it, I'm willing to bet CCP would have left it alone and fixed the malfunction. Goons took it to large extremes though, and then expect to keep the ISK even though it has negative effects on the game.
Don't like it? Here's how you can fix it: http://bit.ly/Lw7sPe |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:17:00 -
[284] - Quote
Quote:
Also likely; Im a vampire. No sex drive
look it up. Malkavian
OMG they are here. Beware. Next winter Batman is coming to EVE. [/quote]
Winter is coming :) |
Lord Zim
943
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:19:00 -
[285] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:They are not being punished. CCP just made a mistake when fixing the mess from the FW design flaw. Some datacores from Goonswarm assets that will probably be given back if they are telling the truth. the datacores were part of it lying Goons??? NO WAI I'm going to just point out the fact that some datacores were bought normally, prior to the FW debacle. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:24:00 -
[286] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:How many of you started reading the forums after being ganked at Jita Burn? A lot of senseless hatred in this thread. a lot of senseless hatered in posts on the eve forums in general these days. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:26:00 -
[287] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:They broke the rules, pure and simple. Frying Doom wrote:They should be punished pure and simple. At the time of the actions in question, it was not deemed an exploit, and it was not utilizing a programming bug. Exactly like insurance fraud, PI, PA, titan bowling and tracking titans etc etc etc. Which means that the way CCP is handling matters of this type has changed in this case.Frying Doom wrote:They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple. Are you trying to say that the reaction is a revenge act?
It maybe CCP are changing in general how they handle things like this from now on, just because in the past for whatever reason they might have let things slide or taken a more hands off approach doesn't follow their going to keep doing the same regardless, might be a case of they've reached the point of saying "enough is enough" and started tightening up on things.
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Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:30:00 -
[288] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Just because CCP had not officially stated that the vulnerability was an exploit, it does not mean it wasn't an exploit.
If I discovered a new way to hack into your personal computer that nobody else knew about, therefore it was not documented, and I proceeded to hack into your computer using this vulnerability - would that be OK with you? Since nobody has said that i can't do it - your firewalls, security measures and operating system are working as intended. SO you should be fine with me poking my nose around in your PC? - no, it is exploiting a vulnerability to do something illegal, whether its is documented or not.
Your arguments hold no weight. It was abuse of a vulnerability in the game mechanics, which IS by definition called an exploit. The OP of the 4x4 thread stated it was an exploit himself. CCP's own rules state that anybody knowingly abusing an exploit can be punished.
So, previous exploits like the PI bug, PA, and Insurance payouts, and all these others you keep mentioning obviously were not punished hard enough, since people still think they can get away with abusing exploits - to the point where they gloat about it on the forums, rub the game designers face in it, and make a mockery of the game itself and those who play it.
Its time CCP HTFU and make an example of these arrogant cheaters with extreme punishment that clearly says - "if you break the rules, you gonna pay for it". This might actually deter future attacks on the game, instead of the lame slap on the wrist, oh you naughty pod pilot stuff we have seen in the past. The guys who did this are not idiots, they know what they did was wrong.
This will in no way "break the sandbox". Even the sandbox needs rules to maintain the integrity of sandbox style play.
Initially i was of the opinion that just taking the profits away would be enough of a punishment - i now believe bans are in order for those involved.
CCP - you need to send a clear message to overt future abuse of your product, otherwise people will continue to ruin your game.
Exploiting a bug is illegal. There was no bug. It was a legal exploitation of weak game mechanics design. Now tell the truth, will ya. You just want to whip someone you meanie.
I believe the Goons who pulled this noticed how broken and how bad this was to the game so they posted about it. Since they did it for the good of the game I don't think they will mind having the assets gained from this exploit confiscated as it's evidently gamebreaking.
Now they are stating that CCP removed more datacores than they got from exploiting. They call it punishment, but I think that's because of some guilty complex because of all the damage they do. I believe it was just a mistake from CCP but the truth is I don't have access to Goons assets to evaluate what really happened and how bad it is. Few of us do. |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:33:00 -
[289] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote: It maybe CCP are changing in general how they handle things like this from now on, just because in the past for whatever reason they might have let things slide or taken a more hands off approach doesn't follow their going to keep doing the same regardless, might be a case of they've reached the point of saying "enough is enough" and started tightening up on things.
That wouldn't surprise me at all.
I know if i was a one of the game dev's, especially one who had worked on the latest expansion, i would not want people like this to be part of the EVE community. They made them look like fools, when they could have just as easily informed them of the exploit with supporting evidence ( the uber nerd spreadsheet ) to back up the claims. |
Major Killz
State Protectorate Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:34:00 -
[290] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Just because CCP had not officially stated that the vulnerability was an exploit, it does not mean it wasn't an exploit.
If I discovered a new way to hack into your personal computer that nobody else knew about, therefore it was not documented, and I proceeded to hack into your computer using this vulnerability - would that be OK with you? Since nobody has said that i can't do it - your firewalls, security measures and operating system are working as intended. SO you should be fine with me poking my nose around in your PC? - no, it is exploiting a vulnerability to do something illegal, whether it is documented or not.
Your arguments hold no weight. It was abuse of a vulnerability in the game mechanics, which IS by definition called an exploit. The OP of the 4x4 thread stated it was an exploit himself. CCP's own rules state that anybody knowingly abusing an exploit can be punished.
So, previous exploits like the PI bug, PA, and Insurance payouts, and all these others you keep mentioning obviously were not punished hard enough, since people still think they can get away with abusing exploits - to the point where they gloat about it on the forums, rub the game designers face in it, and make a mockery of the game itself and those who play it.
Its time CCP HTFU and make an example of these arrogant cheaters with extreme punishment that clearly says - "if you break the rules, you gonna pay for it". This might actually deter future attacks on the game, instead of the lame slap on the wrist, oh you naughty pod pilot stuff we have seen in the past. The guys who did this are not idiots, they know what they did was wrong.
This will in no way "break the sandbox". Even the sandbox needs rules to maintain the integrity of sandbox style play.
Initially i was of the opinion that just taking the profits away would be enough of a punishment - i now believe bans are in order for those involved.
CCP - you need to send a clear message to overt future abuse of your product, otherwise people will continue to ruin your game.
Hacking is general. With regard to hacking accounts? There are so many qualifiers with that in mind. Rules with regard to hacking accounts is p defined by CCP and other rules. Not so much. You can't make a general statement regarding exploits, because it covers so much of what 's done ingame. CCP should come out with a definition and state exclusions. That's how legislations and laws in real life.
Point is. You seem to have miss-construe 2 very different rules. One that is very defined and another that is vague. Something is not a illegal exploit untill CCP has written some sort of presidence. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion. People make mistakes and systems fail. Your learn from it, fix it and move on. CCP will cont. to make mistakes and learn from them. There player base will cont. to push the limits of the game, WITHIN THE RULES. Which is one of the greatest assets of the game. CCP should not punish players for doing what this game was intended to allow to do untill CCP sees issues with its systems and mechanics and how it affects other players. |
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Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:35:00 -
[291] - Quote
the example was purely to explain that making use of a vulnerability - documented or not - is actually an exploit. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
125
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:59:00 -
[292] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Just because CCP had not officially stated that the vulnerability was an exploit, it does not mean it wasn't an exploit. Until CCp says something is, it isn't. Quote:If I discovered a new way to hack into your personal computer that nobody else knew about, therefore it was not documented, and I proceeded to hack into your computer using this vulnerability - would that be OK with you? Since nobody has said that i can't do it - your firewalls, security measures and operating system are working as intended. SO you should be fine with me poking my nose around in your PC? - no, it is exploiting a vulnerability to do something illegal, whether it is documented or not. Well you see, you hacking into my computer in the first place is illegal, there are already laws on the books that make it so, and despite finding a novel undocumented way to do it will still get you arrested. All CCP had to do was state that there was an exploit, and anybody abusing that exploit would be punished.
Let's turn this around and say that if there were no laws stating that hacking into someones computer was illegal, I couldn't do anything if you did, and nothing could be done to you, until there was a law stating you couldn't, and be arrested and jailed for doing so. Say you are in a world where there is no hacking law, and you go about doing just that without a care in the world, untill you find out that the world made a new law stating that hacking into someone elses computer was now illegal. Guess what, you are fine, because up untill they made the new law, nobody could touch you for hacking into their computer, and everything you did before was legal, they can't go after you because that is Ex post facto. Quote:Your arguments hold no weight. It was abuse of a vulnerability in the game mechanics, which IS by definition called an exploit. The OP of the 4x4 thread stated it was an exploit himself. CCP's own rules state that anybody knowingly abusing an exploit can be punished. Wasn't an exploit until CCP said something. Quote:So, previous exploits like the PI bug, PA, and Insurance payouts, and all these others you keep mentioning obviously were not punished hard enough, since people still think they can get away with abusing exploits - to the point where they gloat about it on the forums, rub the game designers face in it, and make a mockery of the game itself and those who play it. straw man. until CCP said that they were exploits they were valid game mechanics, and legal to do. They couldn't do anything to them for exploiting it, up untill they said something about it being an exploit. (and suddenly your strawman goes *POOF*)
Quote:Its time CCP HTFU and make an example of these arrogant cheaters with extreme punishment that clearly says - "if you break the rules, you gonna pay for it". This might actually deter future attacks on the game, instead of the lame slap on the wrist, oh you naughty pod pilot stuff we have seen in the past. The guys who did this are not idiots, they know what they did was wrong. This will in no way "break the sandbox". Even the sandbox needs rules to maintain the integrity of sandbox style play. Initially i was of the opinion that just taking the profits away would be enough of a punishment - i now believe bans are in order for those involved. CCP - you need to send a clear message to overt future abuse of your product, otherwise people will continue to ruin your game. Yes lets punish everybody for breaking the rules EX POST FACTO! "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Ravan Hekki
Imperial Guardians The Aurora Shadow
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 18:05:00 -
[293] - Quote
I cant belive anyone still cares. Is there not a game to played somewhere behind all this posturing? |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
125
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 18:07:00 -
[294] - Quote
Ravan Hekki wrote:I cant belive anyone still cares. Is there not a game to played somewhere behind all this posturing? But this is the game. What game are you playing? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 18:18:00 -
[295] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
unless you dont count Sreeg as CCP then CCP disagrees in the thread that got locked. He says several times that it was an exploit
Need some reference. Afaik last comment locking the thread was a positive one.
CCP Sreegs: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
AureoBroker wrote: Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics. Tallon Sylph wrote: We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. CCP Sreegs wrote: I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way.
CCP Sreegs wrote: When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
He seems to be agreeing but yeah he didnt use the word...
CCP Sreegs wrote: We didn't nuke anything. Shared information post exploit is appreciated but let's not pretend this was shared with us prior to being taken advantage of.
What we took and what we'll be doing with it etc. are matters between us and the people who had the assets, not the forum community.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1523795#post1523795
CCP Sreegs wrote: It is absolutely true. It's even mentioned in the OP. That's not the entirety of the exploit of course but it does increase the damage window.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1523656#post1523656
CCP Sreegs wrote: I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1523304#post1523304
That enough? Regardless, you know how you cover what you guys do with "its market manipulation"? Well your 5T loss is a "market correction".
Vicata Heth wrote:Stop making comparisons to real life. Since when is EVE = Real Life? You can't legally scam people in real life, or deliberately mislead people in contracts. Should people be punished for that too? CCP reversed the ill gotten gains simply because it was too large an amount/too game breaking to let them keep it. Had they only obtained 1b from it, I'm willing to bet CCP would have left it alone and fixed the malfunction. Goons took it to large extremes though, and then expect to keep the ISK even though it has negative effects on the game. Don't like it? Here's how you can fix it: http://bit.ly/Lw7sPe
CCP said EVE was real remember? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 18:27:00 -
[296] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:They are not being punished. CCP just made a mistake when fixing the mess from the FW design flaw. Some datacores from Goonswarm assets that will probably be given back if they are telling the truth. the datacores were part of it lying Goons??? NO WAI I'm going to just pretend Quote: that some datacores were bought normally, prior to the FW debacle.
Cause unless you were there you dont know and the guys Im quoting WERE there
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 18:31:00 -
[297] - Quote
Ravan Hekki wrote:I cant belive anyone still cares. Is there not a game to played somewhere behind all this posturing?
The only ones that still care are Goons and those who have surgically connected their lips to the Goons' posteriors.
Given the lack of CCP posting on the topic (and a lack of a dev blog) even they dont seem to care
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
111
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 18:31:00 -
[298] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:NO rule was broken. Goons abused a mechanic that CCP didn't think through.
Just like insurance. Just like the PA. Just like PI initially.
There is no rule against abusing intentional mechanics that are just bad ideas.
However, if CCP decides that the rules were broken, then I expect them to dish out the hand of punishment to everyone who made use of the mechanic. And everyone in FW who benefited.
i believe that it was once said in galaxy far far far away from here....ITS A TRAP! |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 18:32:00 -
[299] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote: Well you see, you hacking into my computer in the first place is illegal, there are already laws on the books that make it so, and despite finding a novel undocumented way to do it will still get you arrested. All CCP had to do was state that there was an exploit, and anybody abusing that exploit would be punished.
You obviously misunderstood my very, very simple example that had nothing to do with legality, but to simply illustrate the fact that it doesn't matter whether a vulnerability is documented or not (in this case CCP saying, no don't do that, which they didn't), abusing a vulnerability is, by definition, exploiting a system.
It just so happens that this vulnerability was spoken about pre-inferno (documented / known of, - just not officially stated as such by CCP)... Its still a vulnerability open to exploitation.
Yes, It is up to CCP to decide if they deem it an exploit. It doesn't look promising that they wont though, since the definition of an exploit is; "blah, blah...Or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. ....Blah blah." Principles of Information Security (4th edition) Chapter 1, page10. by Michael E. Whitman, Herbert J. Mattord.
I'm just not sure why, or how anybody can argue anything different. If they had discovered it by accident, then sure. But we all know CCP will go easy on them : )
|
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:13:00 -
[300] - Quote
@Antisocial Malkavian
Now paste the comments where the word "bug" comes before "exploit" and that's the ones where CCP says Goons broke the rules. And yeah, they have the right to "punish". According to the EULA they can ban any account for any reason or no reason at all, but I dont believe those CCP'ers are such cowboys.
Sorry I cound't open the youtube link, I'm behind a firewall here. Will open it later. |
|
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:21:00 -
[301] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:@Antisocial Malkavian
Now paste the comments where the word "bug" comes before "exploit" and that's the ones where CCP says Goons broke the rules. And yeah, they have the right to "punish". According to the EULA they can ban any account for any reason or no reason at all, but I dont believe those CCP'ers are such cowboys.
Sorry I cound't open the youtube link, I'm behind a firewall here. Will open it later.
use the tor browser addon, might be slow but gets round quite a few things :)
https://www.torproject.org/index.html.en |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:22:00 -
[302] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:They made them look like fools, when they could have just as easily informed them of the exploit with supporting evidence ( the uber nerd spreadsheet ) to back up the claims.
Exactly. And this is what the EULA Rules say must be done, and it was just exactly what was NOT done until much later and after exploitation.
That just does not seem to get through the thick skuls of the Goons, although most are under 20 yrs old and are obviously a part of the "I'm Uber-Entitled to everything in Life and will Lawyer my Way to Being Right" Generation.
My 21 year old neice astounds me with her claims to what she is entitled to. It's the way of the world now apparently. Does not make it right though, at all. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Lord Zim
943
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:24:00 -
[303] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:They are not being punished. CCP just made a mistake when fixing the mess from the FW design flaw. Some datacores from Goonswarm assets that will probably be given back if they are telling the truth. the datacores were part of it lying Goons??? NO WAI I'm going to just pretend Quote: that some datacores were bought normally, prior to the FW debacle. Cause unless you were there you dont know and the guys Im quoting WERE there OK, sure, don't believe me, then. It matters little to me. |
Lord Zim
943
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:25:00 -
[304] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:They made them look like fools, when they could have just as easily informed them of the exploit with supporting evidence ( the uber nerd spreadsheet ) to back up the claims. Exactly. And this is what the EULA Rules say must be done, and it was just exactly what was NOT done until much later and after exploitation. That just does not seem to get through the thick skuls of the Goons, although most are under 20 yrs old and are obviously a part of the "I'm Uber-Entitled to everything in Life and will Lawyer my Way to Being Right" Generation. So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"? |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:29:00 -
[305] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"?
Provide proof of that.
I HIGHLY doubt that would be ignored by CCP. Your Mother would be ashamed at you for telling these White Lies.
I'm glad they are at least trying to clean up such nonsincical posters on the Forums finally. Been a long time coming.
And I have only 17 hours to live before turning off from this Sad FreakFest the game of EVE has tiresomely become. Good-bye. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
adam smash
University of Caille Gallente Federation
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:34:00 -
[306] - Quote
CCP mad they need to make something WORK nothing else.
WTF do they put out that works right from the start?
Sandbox BUT can't do somethings
Really CCP should stop calling this a sandbox. It is a sandbox of rules...
Space is cold and harsh but you better make sure not to do anything CCP does not like, better make sure not to say bad words in local, better make sure not to attack noobs... etc etc etc etc...
Sandbox my ass...
For once I'll say good for goons... this was no exploit... this was doing what the SANDBOX allowed.
CODE **** RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. GET PEOPLE WHO KNOW WTF THEY ARE DOING. |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:43:00 -
[307] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"?
It started being a known code weakness the day it was first reported. Therefore any abuse done after the first reports on Sisi is an abuse of a known vulnerability and thus should be bannable. The fact CCP did not patch it before release is bad for them, but does not authorize individuals going all out to abuse the most they can. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:52:00 -
[308] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote: Well you see, you hacking into my computer in the first place is illegal, there are already laws on the books that make it so, and despite finding a novel undocumented way to do it will still get you arrested. All CCP had to do was state that there was an exploit, and anybody abusing that exploit would be punished.
You obviously misunderstood my very, very simple example that had nothing to do with legality, but to simply illustrate the fact that it doesn't matter whether a vulnerability is documented or not (in this case CCP saying, no don't do that, which they didn't), abusing a vulnerability is, by definition, exploiting a system. Which i think was a response to some idiot saying, "but but CCP didn't say we couldn't abuse the vulnerability - so it must be OK , derrr...huhuh." It just so happens that this vulnerability was spoken about pre-inferno (documented / known of, - just not officially stated as such by CCP)... Its still a vulnerability open to exploitation. Yes, It is up to CCP to decide if they deem it an exploit. It doesn't look promising that they wont though, since the definition of an exploit is; "blah, blah...Or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. ....Blah blah." Principles of Information Security (4th edition) Chapter 1, page10. by Michael E. Whitman, Herbert J. Mattord. I'm just not sure why, or how anybody can argue anything different. If they had discovered it by accident, then sure. But we all know CCP will go easy on them : ) It's a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise. Intended game mechanic or not, that is how the game has worked up untill now. Up untill the twenty first it was a valid game mechanic, now it is not, deal with it. All those that pushed this to the breaking point, I say good job. If CCP knew about it and thought it wasnt what they intended they should have said something about it earlier. All I'm hearing now is, sour grapes, Goonies are bad m'kay, and "I wouldn't have done that." from the peanut gallery. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:00:00 -
[309] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Lord Zim wrote: So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"?
It started being a known code weakness the day it was first reported. Therefore any abuse done after the first reports on Sisi is an abuse of a known vulnerability and thus should be bannable. The fact CCP did not patch it before release is bad for them, but does not authorize individuals going all out to abuse the most they can. CCP could have said We've heard about this, it might be a vulnerability, we will monitor it, and anybody abusing it is exploiting. They said NOTHING, or are we supposed to be mindreaders and read CCPs minds as to intent of a game mechanic? I don't know anybody that is a telepath, so we have to infer that it is a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:06:00 -
[310] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Cause unless you were there you dont know and the guys Im quoting WERE there
OK, sure, don't believe me, then. It matters little to me.
Well, given you CANT prove what YOURE saying and IM quoting from what the GUYS THAT DID IT said, yeah...
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:08:00 -
[311] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote: CCP could have said We've heard about this, it might be a vulnerability, we will monitor it, and anybody abusing it is exploiting. They said NOTHING, or are we supposed to be mindreaders and read CCPs minds as to intent of a game mechanic? I don't know anybody that is a telepath, so we have to infer that it is a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise.
Do you seriously need a telepath to understand that a vulnerability discovered and discussed for SiSi was not meant to be abused if it still stayed in game once deployed on TQ? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:08:00 -
[312] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Lord Zim wrote: So when we point out that everything was pointed out to CCP before they'd even released the code, t hat was still "post exploit"?
It started being a known code weakness the day it was first reported. Therefore any abuse done after the first reports on Sisi is an abuse of a known vulnerability and thus should be bannable. The fact CCP did not patch it before release is bad for them, but does not authorize individuals going all out to abuse the most they can.
especially when the guys doing it were (in their words) "lying in wait" for it to hit the play server http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:14:00 -
[313] - Quote
I would say, shooting Mackinaws is an exploit. Shooting somebody else is an exploit too. |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:15:00 -
[314] - Quote
I think the horse is well and truly dead now. Time to stop flogging it.
Arguments from both sides have been stated, restated, and repeated over and over again.
Lets just wait for CCP's popcorn moment......... |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
821
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:16:00 -
[315] - Quote
Does anyone know if CCP has said what happened and what they've done yet? Can anyone provide a breakdown of what has happened?
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:16:00 -
[316] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:I think the horse is well and truly dead now. Time to stop flogging it.
Arguments from both sides have been stated, restated, and repeated over and over again.
Lets just wait for CCP's popcorn moment.........
ya wheres that def blog
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:19:00 -
[317] - Quote
This is the part where you lock the thread and release the DevBlog :P |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
386
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:24:00 -
[318] - Quote
Driving home the "listen to your players" lesson. Nothing Found |
Lord Zim
943
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:39:00 -
[319] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote: CCP could have said We've heard about this, it might be a vulnerability, we will monitor it, and anybody abusing it is exploiting. They said NOTHING, or are we supposed to be mindreaders and read CCPs minds as to intent of a game mechanic? I don't know anybody that is a telepath, so we have to infer that it is a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise.
Do you seriously need a telepath to understand that a vulnerability discovered and discussed for SiSi was not meant to be abused if it still stayed in game once deployed on TQ? Up until this incident, if something was possible using documented ingame mechanics, and CCP hasn't said "this is not legal, don't do this", then it was fully legal to do so. This means everything is very clear-cut for players wrt legality.
Your interpretation can easily be construed in such a manner that f.ex utilizing tracking titans (which are utilizing an algorithm with a weakness where titans, the biggest ship in the game, can easily enough shoot and kill the smallest and most nimble ships in the game) could be seen as something which you "wouldn't need a telepath to understand shouldn't be done", because it's "not what the ship's designed role was". Instead, we looked upon this as "emergent gameplay" and embraced it. Hated it when we were up against it, but still a part of the sandbox.
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:44:00 -
[320] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote: CCP could have said We've heard about this, it might be a vulnerability, we will monitor it, and anybody abusing it is exploiting. They said NOTHING, or are we supposed to be mindreaders and read CCPs minds as to intent of a game mechanic? I don't know anybody that is a telepath, so we have to infer that it is a valid game mechanic untill CCP says otherwise. Do you seriously need a telepath to understand that a vulnerability discovered and discussed for SiSi was not meant to be abused if it still stayed in game once deployed on TQ? Hilighted the relevant portion for you. You may consider it an exploit, heck your cousin who doesn't even play EVE may read it and say "Yea, that is a vulnerability waiting to be exploited." Only CCP can say if it is or not, and up untill the 21st, it was on TQ it was live and WAS NOT AN EXPLOIT, it was a valid game mechanic that anybody could use.
All CCP had to do was state right on pach day, that they knew about it and would consider it an exploit, till they could work a patch for it. Thats it, that is all they had to do to stop it being exploited, and they DIDN'T. What else coud anybody infer, when CCP is warned, and they are silent about it? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
|
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:48:00 -
[321] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
All CCP had to do was state right on pach day, that they knew about it and would consider it an exploit, till they could work a patch for it. Thats it, that is all they had to do to stop it being exploited, and they DIDN'T. What else coud anybody infer, when CCP is warned, and they are silent about it?
It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy.
Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things
|
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:58:00 -
[322] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:
All CCP had to do was state right on pach day, that they knew about it and would consider it an exploit, till they could work a patch for it. Thats it, that is all they had to do to stop it being exploited, and they DIDN'T. What else coud anybody infer, when CCP is warned, and they are silent about it?
It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy. Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things Would you like some more tinfoil for that fine hat you're wearing? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Lord Zim
944
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 21:18:00 -
[323] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy. Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things If this had been anything other than just a troll, then I would've been highly worried as a player, simply because it would mean that EVE the game has gone from a sandbox with clear, distinct rules of conduct, to a semi-sandbox with a developer which is actively trying to find ways with which to punish players. |
Nazim
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 21:38:00 -
[324] - Quote
Whoa whoa where is this stuff that its not an exploit until ccp says it is. Firstly ccp can decide retroactively that it was a exploit and punish all those using it prior to this statement. Other game companies do this and ccp has prior precedent of dooing it. For example ccp punished a guy who was afk ratting by having his sentries out and having reppers on the sentry. Ccp punished the guy and only later stated that this was an exploit. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 21:40:00 -
[325] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy. Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things If this had been anything other than just a troll, then I would've been highly worried as a player, simply because it would mean that EVE the game has gone from a sandbox with clear, distinct rules of conduct, to a semi-sandbox with a developer which is actively trying to find ways with which to punish players.
I dunno, EvE's advertising talks about consequences and a MMO world where things you do matter. Do something that looks like an exploit and maybe the consequence is finding a new MMO to play.
"I was there... but then I got banned."
|
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
492
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:00:00 -
[326] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ?
meh
Tal
|
Lord Zim
944
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:05:00 -
[327] - Quote
Nope. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:07:00 -
[328] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ? meh Tal
yea I dont see this happening... know why? If theyre absolute you have the Goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping them apart for loopholes and have this exact situation happening on a constant basic instead of every once in a while http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Lord Zim
944
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:11:00 -
[329] - Quote
So to avoid "goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping rules apart for loopholes when rules are absolutes and not open to interpretation", you'll expect a sandbox game to have very loose rules which are open to interpretation?
I ... see. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:17:00 -
[330] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ? meh Tal yea I dont see this happening... know why? If theyre absolute you have the Goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping them apart for loopholes and have this exact situation happening on a constant basic instead of every once in a while CCP has made it quite clear that when they say "DON'T!" you don't, and trying to internet lawyer your way around it still gets you banhammered, so it is useles to even try. That, to me, seems pretty absolute, don't you think? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
|
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
98
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:23:00 -
[331] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:
All CCP had to do was state right on pach day, that they knew about it and would consider it an exploit, till they could work a patch for it. Thats it, that is all they had to do to stop it being exploited, and they DIDN'T. What else coud anybody infer, when CCP is warned, and they are silent about it?
It was a setup. They were simply letting a stupid player or group of players do something that was ban worthy. Perhaps someone at Sony wanted CCP to clean up the garbage in EvE so expect to see more of these types of things Would you like some more tinfoil for that fine hat you're wearing?
Sarcasm is lost on you.
I think that bleach you used on your head was absorbed by your frontal lobe. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
540
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:23:00 -
[332] - Quote
Absolute rules would mean people can't be judged according the BFF factor. We can't have that.
You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
It was obvious that the system wasn't working as intended, and that my dear chaps is what a bug is. Something not working as intended. It was soo obvious that they told CCP about the flaw and then went on abusing it. If I had done that I would get all the goodies stripped and a temp ban at the least. And I would have been very lucky if I got off that easy.
Luckily CCP has a "no tell what we did" policy, so any claims that the culprits have been judged just as harshly as any other grunt in this game ar irrelevant. Those claims can't be proven and I for one think this rule sometimes is just too beneficial to avoid any and all responcebilities.
It's this kind of bullcrap and all the other smokescreens which CCP just loves to throw up that I am seeing more and more veterans leave the game. I know a lot of you newbees won't care, but in short time you will become bittervets too because next to feel like being lied to and the whole cold shoulder mentality CCP loves to give it's playerbase will start to hit you too.
In my opinion CCP has no accountability. Only accountants. That's what you get once a love and passion get's replaced by mortgages and bonusses |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
503
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:24:00 -
[333] - Quote
Come on out of this thread there are ISD to annoy out there : )
Tal
|
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:31:00 -
[334] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: Up until this incident, if something was possible using documented ingame mechanics, and CCP hasn't said "this is not legal, don't do this", then it was fully legal to do so. This means everything is very clear-cut for players wrt legality.
Every new course starts from an old course that gets changed.
Lord Zim wrote: Your interpretation can easily be construed in such a manner that f.ex utilizing tracking titans (which are utilizing an algorithm with a weakness where titans, the biggest ship in the game, can easily enough shoot and kill the smallest and most nimble ships in the game) could be seen as something which you "wouldn't need a telepath to understand shouldn't be done", because it's "not what the ship's designed role was". Instead, we looked upon this as "emergent gameplay" and embraced it. Hated it when we were up against it, but still a part of the sandbox.
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
A titan killing a cruiser does not exactly equal to grabbing 5 trillions. A titan fitted for that is not also the best titan for everything else, it had to give up on stuff.
Also no self proclaimed group of "we are better than you" players twitted or made smug threads to pour salt over the wound. Finally a titan killing a cruiser does not make 0.0 pointless, something that this abuse did with regards to FW and large part of low sec with it.
|
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:34:00 -
[335] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote: Hilighted the relevant portion for you. You may consider it an exploit, heck your cousin who doesn't even play EVE may read it and say "Yea, that is a vulnerability waiting to be exploited."
Exactly, even my cousin who does not even play EvE may read it as a vulnerability waiting to be exploited. And even my cousin would imagine that abusers would be punished for something so obvious even him who does not play EvE can clearly see.
|
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:36:00 -
[336] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Nazim wrote:Whoa whoa where is this stuff that its not an exploit until ccp says it is. Firstly ccp can decide retroactively that it was a exploit and punish all those using it prior to this statement. Other game companies do this and ccp has prior precedent of dooing it. For example ccp punished a guy who was afk ratting by having his sentries out and having reppers on the sentry. Ccp punished the guy and only later stated that this was an exploit. Why would repping sentries be an exploit?
I recall that event.
It was an exploit because CCP decided it was so. Here, you got your new course. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:37:00 -
[337] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote: Also no self proclaimed group of "we are better than you" players twitted or made smug threads to pour salt over the wound. Finally a titan killing a cruiser does not make 0.0 pointless, something that this abuse did with regards to FW and large part of low sec with it.
Rubbing salt in a wound stings like heck, but makes the wound heal faster. True story. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:41:00 -
[338] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote: Hilighted the relevant portion for you. You may consider it an exploit, heck your cousin who doesn't even play EVE may read it and say "Yea, that is a vulnerability waiting to be exploited."
Exactly, even my cousin who does not even play EvE may read it as a vulnerability waiting to be exploited. And even my cousin would imagine that abusers would be punished for something so obvious even him who does not play EvE can clearly see. Ah, but you forgot the other part of that paragraph. Only CCP can say if it is an exploit or not, and they said nothing.
Nice cherrypick tho. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Nazim
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:50:00 -
[339] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Nazim wrote:Whoa whoa where is this stuff that its not an exploit until ccp says it is. Firstly ccp can decide retroactively that it was a exploit and punish all those using it prior to this statement. Other game companies do this and ccp has prior precedent of dooing it. For example ccp punished a guy who was afk ratting by having his sentries out and having reppers on the sentry. Ccp punished the guy and only later stated that this was an exploit. Why would repping sentries be an exploit?
It wasn't the repping by itself. It was parking your ship at a rat spawn site with bounties, repping the sentry drones along with self reping, and leaving the computer on the rest of the day while doing other things. CCP equated it to botting. |
Lord Zim
944
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:50:00 -
[340] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Nazim wrote:Whoa whoa where is this stuff that its not an exploit until ccp says it is. Firstly ccp can decide retroactively that it was a exploit and punish all those using it prior to this statement. Other game companies do this and ccp has prior precedent of dooing it. For example ccp punished a guy who was afk ratting by having his sentries out and having reppers on the sentry. Ccp punished the guy and only later stated that this was an exploit. Why would repping sentries be an exploit? I recall that event. It was an exploit because CCP decided it was so. Here, you got your new course. I'm going to assume there's more to this case than "he repped his sentries". |
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Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:52:00 -
[341] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Alaya Carrier wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote: Hilighted the relevant portion for you. You may consider it an exploit, heck your cousin who doesn't even play EVE may read it and say "Yea, that is a vulnerability waiting to be exploited."
Exactly, even my cousin who does not even play EvE may read it as a vulnerability waiting to be exploited. And even my cousin would imagine that abusers would be punished for something so obvious even him who does not play EvE can clearly see. Ah, but you forgot the other part of that paragraph. Only CCP can say if it is an exploit or not, and they said nothing. Nice cherrypick with a handoff to a strawman. You don't see that every day...wait this is Eve-O GD
CCP Sreegs said it's an abuse and did not look exceptionally happy with the abusers. Hopefully he will not be bypassed by some brass deciding CCP has to keep being the only company that does not punish abuses. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 00:07:00 -
[342] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ? meh Tal yea I dont see this happening... know why? If theyre absolute you have the Goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping them apart for loopholes and have this exact situation happening on a constant basic instead of every once in a while CCP has made it quite clear that when they say "DON'T!" you don't, and trying to internet lawyer your way around it still gets you banhammered, so it is useles to even try. That, to me, seems pretty absolute, don't you think?
you fail at reading
you do realize that yes? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 01:37:00 -
[343] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ? meh Tal yea I dont see this happening... know why? If theyre absolute you have the Goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping them apart for loopholes and have this exact situation happening on a constant basic instead of every once in a while CCP has made it quite clear that when they say "DON'T!" you don't, and trying to internet lawyer your way around it still gets you banhammered, so it is useles to even try. That, to me, seems pretty absolute, don't you think? you fail at reading you do realize that yes? Funny, all I've read from you amounts to "RAGH! GOONIES, banzors them all CCP! AGHIJASDLKFJAKL!!!1" really not conducive to a debate on the finer points of the issue.
You fail at debating the issue.
You do realize that yes? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1591
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 01:48:00 -
[344] - Quote
so let me get this straight since the dev blogs show nothing
So certain people discovered an issue with the new FW mechanic on Sisi, reported it and began exploring the potential of this issue.
CCP opted to ignore this rather major issue and push FW out the door hoping that this group of players would support them in sweeping a rather glaring gameplay issue under the rug
The group of players instead decided to exploit the hell out of the issue instead of climbing into the soft comfy chair of ignorance and denial
now CCP is mad that the people who warned them this would happen made it happen so it would be exposed as the sloppy work that it is?
is this about right? The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
388
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 01:50:00 -
[345] - Quote
Morganta wrote:so let me get this straight since the dev blogs show nothing
So certain people discovered an issue with the new FW mechanic on Sisi, reported it and began exploring the potential of this issue.
CCP opted to ignore this rather major issue and push FW out the door hoping that this group of players would support them in sweeping a rather glaring gameplay issue under the rug
The group of players instead decided to exploit the hell out of the issue instead of climbing into the soft comfy chair of ignorance and denial
now CCP is mad that the people who warned them this would happen made it happen so it would be exposed as the sloppy work that it is?
is this about right?
yep. you nailed it.
CCP is acting out like an embarrassed child throwing a tantrum...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 02:00:00 -
[346] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote: Funny, all I've read from you amounts to "RAGH! GOONIES, banzors them all CCP! AGHIJASDLKFJAKL!!!1" really not conducive to a debate on the finer points of the issue.
You fail at debating the issue.
You do realize that yes?
Please, link me that quote cause I dont see it.
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Masumi Do
Dust Devil Cartel
226
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 02:01:00 -
[347] - Quote
its a feature... lol |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 02:02:00 -
[348] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
In a sandbox, rules should be absolute and not open to interpretation.
Really ? seems counter intuitive ? meh Tal yea I dont see this happening... know why? If theyre absolute you have the Goonswarm internet lawyer division ripping them apart for loopholes and have this exact situation happening on a constant basic instead of every once in a while CCP has made it quite clear that when they say "DON'T!" you don't, and trying to internet lawyer your way around it still gets you banhammered, so it is useles to even try. That, to me, seems pretty absolute, don't you think?
btw, dumbass I was talking about the hypothetical situation the guy I quoted was talking about
thats why you fail - you are reacting as if I was talking about the current system (which Im not so I figured Id explain it since youre slow) http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Shukuzen Kiraa
Viziam Amarr Empire
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 02:02:00 -
[349] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it
This ^^
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Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1591
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 02:04:00 -
[350] - Quote
this actually reminds me of a funny story.
When I first came back to eve a couple of years ago I was doing some mining poop in some system and accidentally discovered that I could move items between open containers and my cargo hold anywhere on grid
the only restriction was you had to be within the max distance to open the container, but once open you could move stuff around regardless of your distance from the container.
I thought it must be me, how the hell could nobody on either sisi or TQ have not noticed this and reported it already?
but being the good little bundist that I am, I reported it and sure enough the reply was "we were unaware of this bug, thanks for reporting it"
I mean comon, how could nobody ratting, mining or pvping not notice this? I was playing a couple days and found it and knew it was wrong
sometimes the things that CCP misses astounds me
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
|
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
128
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 02:14:00 -
[351] - Quote
Morganta wrote:so let me get this straight since the dev blogs show nothing
So certain people discovered an issue with the new FW mechanic on Sisi, reported it and began exploring the potential of this issue.
CCP opted to ignore this rather major issue and push FW out the door hoping that this group of players would support them in sweeping a rather glaring gameplay issue under the rug
The group of players instead decided to exploit the hell out of the issue instead of climbing into the soft comfy chair of ignorance and denial
now CCP is mad that the people who warned them this would happen made it happen so it would be exposed as the sloppy work that it is?
is this about right? Yea, and you forgot;
CCP could have simply declared this an exploit the day they shoved it out, and no one would have dared to exploit it for fear of the banhammer. Instead they put their fingers in their ears and said loudly "La la la la I can't hear you."
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
477
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 13:43:00 -
[352] - Quote
CCP should just fess up that they didn't really think that through. Players did and made lots of profit. But for the good of their game they can't let it stick. So they are going to take back allot of what the players made. Nobody did anything wrong.
Eve is supposed to be a game that is thrown out there and players are told do whatever you can to make isk succeed.
Thats what happened. Honesty is the best policy.
They should let those who did this keep at least some of their profits for their work and to the extent they are honest about it. Maybe let them keep the first 100 billion worth and be done with it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Htuomotssa
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 14:17:00 -
[353] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy.
They took our jobs!! |
Lord Zim
950
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 14:19:00 -
[354] - Quote
dey turk err jurbz! |
Mons Pubis Giganticus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:02:00 -
[355] - Quote
you realize that it is possible to exploit sloppy design? so both are possible |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
887
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:03:00 -
[356] - Quote
Mons Pubis Giganticus wrote:you realize that it is possible to exploit sloppy design? so both are possible Exploiting sloppy design and being an exploit (and using such exploit) are two different things.
One is perfectly acceptable from an EULA standpoint, the other is not. |
Mons Pubis Giganticus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:21:00 -
[357] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Mons Pubis Giganticus wrote:you realize that it is possible to exploit sloppy design? so both are possible Exploiting sloppy design and being an exploit (and using such exploit) are two different things. One is perfectly acceptable from an EULA standpoint, the other is not. by definition, an exploit is an exploit. perhaps tautological statements are too complex for you. |
Lord Zim
950
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:25:00 -
[358] - Quote
It's only an exploit in the negative sense when CCP has deemed it as such. Until then, it's ~emergent gameplay~. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
889
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:28:00 -
[359] - Quote
Mons Pubis Giganticus wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Mons Pubis Giganticus wrote:you realize that it is possible to exploit sloppy design? so both are possible Exploiting sloppy design and being an exploit (and using such exploit) are two different things. One is perfectly acceptable from an EULA standpoint, the other is not. by definition, an exploit is an exploit. perhaps tautological statements are too complex for you. Exploit, in EVE, is an unintentional mechanic or bug that can be/is used to "get ahead".
However, it is still perfectly possible and legal to exploit an intentional (yet foolish) mechanic.
Perhaps words having more than one definition is too complicated for you. |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:26:00 -
[360] - Quote
In a true 1.0 system concorde used to react as slow as they do in 0.5 systems. That was known and through superior use of game mechanics, things died.
When reaching true -10 status , concorde would not come aid people, only faction police. This because the concorde trigger was the adjustment of secstat downwards, when in highsec. Tank CEO I believe killed tons through use of superior game mechanics
Zombie Corp killed everything in Yulai using RR. Being able to tank the police turned out to be a superior use of game mechanics.
Now, CCP went out and told people to stop what they were doing in these events. The one that did not, was banned.
For thi FW thing It is OK for CCP to say people are not to do this again, and remove the spoils from counting dropped loot to the value of destroyed ships. The dropped loot was not supposed to be calculated. The rest here, is mechanics working as intended and documented. It is in no way an exploit, except, the lp for dropped loot... That is on the killmails, and should be possible to calculate. |
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