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NanoiaBR
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.01.10 13:01:00 -
[1]
Hello everyone, new player on the area, so please go easy! First of all, I'd like to suggest CCP a better search feature for the forums, it's really difficult to find anything. If this question has been answered already, please let me know where.
Now, with the question per se: How useful are Target Painters? The reason I ask is because I'm minmatar and currently doing the vanilla PVE before PVP path: train some learning skills mixed wih combat skills until every learning is done and try out some aspects of the game before moving to PVP.
I was thinking that, when I join some corp, I'd like to try and spec in EWAR. However, from what I seem to understand, Target Painting is the worst kind of EWAR out there... Amarr disrupt tracking, Caldari breaks locks and Gallent dampens sensors. I don't really see the point of target painting in solo PVP, so what about gang PVP?
Also, how useful would a Vigil or a Belicose be as a support ship in a small gang? Should I try to use those ships or just move to tech II as fast as possible?
Thank you for time, hope I can get some good answers.
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Morel Nova
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.01.10 13:04:00 -
[2]
Originally by: NanoiaBR Hello everyone, new player on the area, so please go easy! First of all, I'd like to suggest CCP a better search feature for the forums, it's really difficult to find anything. If this question has been answered already, please let me know where.
Now, with the question per se: How useful are Target Painters? The reason I ask is because I'm minmatar and currently doing the vanilla PVE before PVP path: train some learning skills mixed wih combat skills until every learning is done and try out some aspects of the game before moving to PVP.
I was thinking that, when I join some corp, I'd like to try and spec in EWAR. However, from what I seem to understand, Target Painting is the worst kind of EWAR out there... Amarr disrupt tracking, Caldari breaks locks and Gallent dampens sensors. I don't really see the point of target painting in solo PVP, so what about gang PVP?
Also, how useful would a Vigil or a Belicose be as a support ship in a small gang? Should I try to use those ships or just move to tech II as fast as possible?
Thank you for time, hope I can get some good answers.
its a lot more useful than sensor damping in gang combat imho. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
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Alt Tabbed
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Posted - 2010.01.10 13:05:00 -
[3]
For PvP: Looks like you have to settle for webs then.
Although depending on fleet size TPs can be extremely useful. Of course if fleet size is 1 then....
For PvE: TPs are very useful on most missile spewing boat. The Phoon comes to mind.
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Lirielee
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Posted - 2010.01.10 14:08:00 -
[4]
Minmatar ewar is a pretty cool guy eh THROWS LONG WEBS and makes targets big and isn't afraid of anything
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2010.01.10 15:21:00 -
[5]
What can i Say. Its NOT waste to have 1 vigil with 2 target painters in a gang. But contrary to other ewar it does not escalate more than that, even if you bring 30 to fleet. its useful only against the primary.. and only 2-3 of them at same time.
Really think Tpainter bonuses should be increased to 10% per level on minmatar ships.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.10 15:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: NanoiaBR Now, with the question per se: How useful are Target Painters?
Somewhere between quite useful and very useful, depending on what else you intend to do to the target.
Quote: However, from what I seem to understand, Target Painting is the worst kind of EWAR out there... Amarr disrupt tracking, Caldari breaks locks and Gallent dampens sensors.
The difference is that, Amarr ewar reduces effectiveness of some targets, and only one target per TD. Gallente may inconvenience one target per ship, if he's far enough away, and you can generally forget about affecting more than one ship total (to properly dame something into uselessness, you need multiple damps). Caldari ewar… well, it's in a class of its own by completely nullifying a target, but is chance-based and to ensure success, you generally don't want to spread yourself over multiple targets. Also, it's race-specific if you want to get the best effect, and you might find yourself using the wrong type against the wrong target, so at least there's that.
TP, on the other hand, helps everyone on your team. It lets them (re)lock the target faster, it improves hit quality for turrets and drones, and it makes missiles hit harder. In addition, you get pretty strong diminishing returns for putting multiple TPs on a single ship, so you might as well spread yourself out and have the secondary already painted as the primary is turned to dust. A single midslot on a single ship, and suddenly everyone else's performance improves. It hinges on everyone shooting the same target, but you'll want to do that anyway so that's not much of a limitation. It's not as obvious as the others, but it sure is handy…
Quote: I don't really see the point of target painting in solo PVP, so what about gang PVP?
The point is the same in both cases, you just get more out of it in gangs: it makes every weapon system you have hit harder. In gangs, it makes everyones weapon systems hit harder. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Effte Dubya
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Posted - 2010.01.10 15:42:00 -
[7]
Sorry if this has been answered in here, but its TP related question. I recently saw a pvp video where a guy was using target painters on amarr laser boats pretty regularly. Do target painters work with guns, but better with missiles?
Sorry if this is hijacking your thread, i just didnt want to make another post
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Morel Nova
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.01.10 15:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Effte Dubya Sorry if this has been answered in here, but its TP related question. I recently saw a pvp video where a guy was using target painters on amarr laser boats pretty regularly. Do target painters work with guns, but better with missiles?
Sorry if this is hijacking your thread, i just didnt want to make another post
it helps both, but often its more useful to put a tracking computer or tracking enhancers on turret ships. imho anyway. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.01.10 15:55:00 -
[9]
A PWNAGE/Painter II with any level of Signature Focusing behind it produces a greater increase in tracking than that provided by a tracking-scripted tracking computer.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.10 15:55:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Effte Dubya Sorry if this has been answered in here, but its TP related question. I recently saw a pvp video where a guy was using target painters on amarr laser boats pretty regularly. Do target painters work with guns, but better with missiles?
Sorry if this is hijacking your thread, i just didnt want to make another post
They work with guns by (effectively) improving their tracking by the percentage the target is being painted. This improvement is far from insignificant – on a max-skilled, bonused ship like the minny recons, it comes to some 40% iirc, compared to 30% for a tracking-scripted targeting computer. However, unlike the TC, the TD bonus depends on skills, on the ship, and on how far away the target is (and, obviously, on the target being painted), whereas the TC instantly works against everything equally, no matter what.
The reason you see TPs mentioned more often with missiles is because target size is one of the factors that caps the maximum damage a missile will do against it, and you obviously want that cap to be at 100%, or at least as close as possible. And since sig radius plays a large part in determining the final missile damage, so you would want it high regardless of that cap. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Effte Dubya
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Posted - 2010.01.10 16:43:00 -
[11]
Awesome, thanks for the quick replies. This info will be put the best use, I assure you
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NanoiaBR
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.01.10 17:49:00 -
[12]
Some very good replies here, got me thinking a lot, thank you everyone, especially Tippia, nice tips. Now back to EVEmon to plan the best approach!
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.01.10 18:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Grimpak on 10/01/2010 18:06:44
Originally by: Gypsio III A PWNAGE/Painter II with any level of Signature Focusing behind it produces a greater increase in tracking than that provided by a tracking-scripted tracking computer.
depends.
a TP doesn't increase your optimal, which is what the TC is mostly used for (very rare to see TC's with tracking scripts tbh), nor it's really used that much beyond torp fits (raven and SB's), due to the fact that a) many ships can't/won't sacrifice meds from either tackling gear (short range), or sensor boosters + TC's with optimal scripts (long range), and thus fit TE's instead, and b) long range setups usually eschew tracking for long range capabilities since TP's won't reliably hit beyond 60km range, while short range setups usually benefit more from TE's overall bonus and mwd+web+scram+injector combo, or, in the case of pulses, it's really not needed that much.
in sum, useful? yes, but there's more important stuff to slam on your already scarce medslots. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.01.10 20:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 10/01/2010 18:06:44
Originally by: Gypsio III A PWNAGE/Painter II with any level of Signature Focusing behind it produces a greater increase in tracking than that provided by a tracking-scripted tracking computer.
depends.
a TP doesn't increase your optimal, which is what the TC is mostly used for (very rare to see TC's with tracking scripts tbh), nor it's really used that much beyond torp fits (raven and SB's), due to the fact that a) many ships can't/won't sacrifice meds from either tackling gear (short range), or sensor boosters + TC's with optimal scripts (long range), and thus fit TE's instead, and b) long range setups usually eschew tracking for long range capabilities since TP's won't reliably hit beyond 60km range, while short range setups usually benefit more from TE's overall bonus and mwd+web+scram+injector combo, or, in the case of pulses, it's really not needed that much.
in sum, useful? yes, but there's more important stuff to slam on your already scarce medslots.
I agree completely. For turret tracking, painters look much better on paper than they do in practice.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.01.10 20:30:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Gypsio III
I agree completely. For turret tracking, painters look much better on paper than they do in practice.
Signature Resolution (i.e. BS turrets shooting cruisers)
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.01.10 20:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Gypsio III
I agree completely. For turret tracking, painters look much better on paper than they do in practice.
Signature Resolution (i.e. BS turrets shooting cruisers)
If it's close range, you want a web. If it's long range, a TC would be more useful.
A generalisation, but not too far off the truth.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.01.10 21:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Gypsio III
If it's close range, you want a web.
If there is already one web on the target the 2nd web is less useful than a TP for tracking purposes.
Originally by: Gypsio III
If it's long range, a TC would be more useful.
Irrelevant, since you either have a TC or you dont have the range to hit it.
Anyway, what I was going at, tracking is not only suject to target movement, but also to target size (the signature resolution attribute of the turret). Hence TPs help BS turrets to track small targets like cruisers.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.01.10 21:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Gypsio III
If it's close range, you want a web.
If there is already one web on the target the 2nd web is less useful than a TP for tracking purposes.
No, a 60% web has the tracking effect of a 150% painter. The stacking is the same for both mods.
Originally by: Omara Otawan Anyway, what I was going at, tracking is not only suject to target movement, but also to target size (the signature resolution attribute of the turret). Hence TPs help BS turrets to track small targets like cruisers.
No, there's no difference between target size and target movement for tracking. A TP does indeed help a BS track a cruiser, but a web helps much more - 36% more tracking from a SF IV PWNAGE, 150% more tracking from a T2 web.
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Madner Kami
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.10 21:48:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gypsio III No, a 60% web has the tracking effect of a 150% painter. The stacking is the same for both mods.
I think, what he refers to is: One Web + One Painter > Two Webs.
(Not quite sure on if he's correct, but that's jsut what he wrote.)
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Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2010.01.10 22:21:00 -
[20]
Tracking is grand for sure but honestly there is a point when your turrets signature is the limmiting factor.
I have a Claymore fit with 220mm AC's that tracks better than the top tier small autocannon. Once you have that, signature is the killer if you want to own small ships so a TP is the best option. Don't forget that not all small signature sized ships are frigates.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.01.10 23:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nian Banks Tracking is grand for sure but honestly there is a point when your turrets signature is the limmiting factor.
I have a Claymore fit with 220mm AC's that tracks better than the top tier small autocannon. Once you have that, signature is the killer if you want to own small ships so a TP is the best option. Don't forget that not all small signature sized ships are frigates.
Am I being trolled? Or has everyone really forgotten how tracking works?
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.01.10 23:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gypsio III Am I being trolled? Or has everyone really forgotten how tracking works?
my guess is both.
better do an essay on tracking. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2010.01.10 23:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Nian Banks Tracking is grand for sure but honestly there is a point when your turrets signature is the limmiting factor.
I have a Claymore fit with 220mm AC's that tracks better than the top tier small autocannon. Once you have that, signature is the killer if you want to own small ships so a TP is the best option. Don't forget that not all small signature sized ships are frigates.
Am I being trolled? Or has everyone really forgotten how tracking works?
It's more to the point that I don't like using ac ships in web range, i like the range of painters, that's about the strength of it.
If you have crazy tracking and blow a small ships signature up a bit, that ship will not last long enough for the pilot to react, certainly handy if they think your going to be easily tackled for their friends to arrive and finish you.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Undivided
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Posted - 2010.01.10 23:55:00 -
[24]
Painters act like tracking-scripted tracking computers with the following differences:
-They provide a larger bonus -They boost missiles too -They affect everyone in the damn gang
Webs are good, but have a short range, and most importantly, only affect transversal created by the target (Whereas a TP helps you track whether it's you or him moving quickly).
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.01.11 00:10:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 11/01/2010 00:14:53
Originally by: Gypsio III
No, a 60% web has the tracking effect of a 150% painter. The stacking is the same for both mods.
No it isnt. While the effect gets penalized by the same amount, a reduction effect (like a web) is suffering a lot more than an increasing effect (like a painter).
For example lets look at a Thorax, base speed 213m/s and base signature 140m, webbed and painted by Huginn(s).
1st web - speed reduced by 128m/s 1st TP - signature increased by 72m
2nd web - speed reduced by 44m/s 2nd TP - signature increased by 95m
3rd web - speed reduced by 14m/s 3rd TP - signature increased by 92m/s
While the relative effect is the same, the actual benefit is not.
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Footoo Rama
Gallente Caldari Illuminati
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Posted - 2010.01.11 01:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Morel Nova
Originally by: Effte Dubya Sorry if this has been answered in here, but its TP related question. I recently saw a pvp video where a guy was using target painters on amarr laser boats pretty regularly. Do target painters work with guns, but better with missiles?
Sorry if this is hijacking your thread, i just didnt want to make another post
it helps both, but often its more useful to put a tracking computer or tracking enhancers on turret ships. imho anyway.
Not if you are in a fleet with no other TP's. I run one in my Ishtar when in small gang to help the poor caldari pilots and to boost my sentry drones on smaller hulls. ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!" |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.01.11 01:53:00 -
[27]
Webs are important. Not only is it easier to hit a webbed target but they are much less likely to get away or get an optimal targetting solution on someone in your gang.
Once the target is webbed enough and scramed a target painter will be very useful because it will increase everyone in your gangs actual dps. To be really useful you need more than a couple people in gang.
Tracking disruptors and ecm are for lessening the ammount of damage your gang mates take.
Sensor damps are mostly for staying away from the fight and protecting yourself. Other than that they're fairly useless.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.01.11 07:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Footoo Rama Not if you are in a fleet with no other TP's. I run one in my Ishtar when in small gang to help the poor caldari pilots and to boost my sentry drones on smaller hulls.
ishtar is a somewhat special case cuz you have 5 meds on a ship that provides no bonuses to any kind of ewar.
in nearly all turreted ships, people are better off fitting either tackling, cap boosters, or shield buffer, and the TP role of making the ship good vs sizes smaller is replaced by tacklers that keep people on place and either snipers, or short-range gank ships that have their own scram+web.
like I said above, it's not a problem of not being useless, it's more a "there are better things to fit on medslots besides TP's" problem, gangs or no gangs, specially when you try to tackle stuff at a gate and they get to go back to the gate just because there wasn't enough webs out there to stop him, since somebody decided to fit TP's instead of webs. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.11 12:19:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 11/01/2010 00:14:53
Originally by: Gypsio III
No, a 60% web has the tracking effect of a 150% painter. The stacking is the same for both mods.
No it isnt. While the effect gets penalized by the same amount, a reduction effect (like a web) is suffering a lot more than an increasing effect (like a painter).
For example lets look at a Thorax, base speed 213m/s and base signature 140m, webbed and painted by Huginn(s).
1st web - speed reduced by 128m/s 1st TP - signature increased by 72m
2nd web - speed reduced by 44m/s 2nd TP - signature increased by 95m
3rd web - speed reduced by 14m/s 3rd TP - signature increased by 92m/s
While the relative effect is the same, the actual benefit is not.
The way you put that sounds very wrong. The sig increase is big cause the sig being increased is bigger. The web increase is smaller cause the new base speed is smaller but that doesn't make a difference. It's about % not about how big the number is. The tracking is increased by the % amount. It's not increased by the sig radius increase or the number of m/s it's decreased.
Reduction effeccts do get weaker much faster as they get smaller but that has nothing to do with the exact amounts so if that is what you mean that example is just plain confusing. Also this effect isn't nearly strong enough to make a painter better than the 2nd webber.
Same example as above with the % added in:
base: 213m/s 140sig 1st web - speed reduced by 128m/s : tracking increase 150% 1st TP - signature increased by 72m : tracking increase ~51.4%
new base: 85m/s 212sig 2nd web - speed reduced by 44m/s : tracking increase 107.3% 2nd TP - signature increased by 95m : tracking increase 44.8%
new base: 41m/s 307sig 3rd web - speed reduced by 14m/s : tracking increase 51.85% 3rd TP - signature increased by 92m/s : tracking increase 29.97%
The % effect of decreases getting weaker isn't that strong that 3rd webber is still doing better than the 1st target painter so unless you have 3 webs already and still can't hit the target webs are better for effect. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker |
Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.11 17:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Typhado3 base: 213m/s 140sig 1st web - speed reduced by 128m/s : tracking increase 150% 1st TP - signature increased by 72m : tracking increase ~51.4%
new base: 85m/s 212sig 2nd web - speed reduced by 44m/s : tracking increase 107.3% 2nd TP - signature increased by 95m : tracking increase 44.8%
new base: 41m/s 307sig 3rd web - speed reduced by 14m/s : tracking increase 51.85% 3rd TP - signature increased by 92m/s : tracking increase 29.97%
Comparing TP's and webs this way is only relevant if you are sitting perfectly still. As soon as you start to move, this comparision is meaningless.
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