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AndrewBot89
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.09.20 13:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I quit this game a while ago (around the Incursion, I believe), and just decided that I want to shoot some space ships with other space ships again. I mostly do missions, and back then the general consensus was that rails are what you want. Now, reading some posts, it seems like the general consensus is that rails are completely useless and should not be touched under any circumstances. Were they really nerfed that badly? Or has the mindset just changed? |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
8
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Posted - 2011.09.20 14:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm not sure if they are bad or not since I haven't used them in ages. I do know though, that when I did use them, if you set your ship up correctly, they would kick butt. I loved my rail fitted Eagle. Could do some nice solo PvP with that thing under the right circumstances. Used it in Faction Warfare when it first came out and got a few solo kills. |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
13
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Posted - 2011.09.20 14:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
there is what 5 topics about why hybrids suck on the front page alone. |
xanderh
Emerald Industries
2
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Posted - 2011.09.20 14:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
AndrewBot89 wrote:back then the general consensus was that rails are what you want.
Nope, wrong. I've been playing for around a year, and they haven't changed at all while I've been here, and everyone thought they sucked.
And yes, they still suck compared to the others, they haven't changed yet. But they will in the winter expansion (at least, that's what CCP says), and they will probably be the best weapon system again (they used to be at some point, right?) |
Akuma Tsukai
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.09.20 15:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
imo its not that rails are bad, its the thing that arty and beams are better. Blasters however were ****** up by nano nerf and web nerf. |
baltec1
46
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Posted - 2011.09.20 15:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
xanderh wrote:AndrewBot89 wrote:back then the general consensus was that rails are what you want. Nope, wrong. I've been playing for around a year, and they haven't changed at all while I've been here, and everyone thought they sucked. And yes, they still suck compared to the others, they haven't changed yet. But they will in the winter expansion (at least, that's what CCP says), and they will probably be the best weapon system again (they used to be at some point, right?)
They wont get seen to untill after winter
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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.09.20 16:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
xanderh wrote:AndrewBot89 wrote:back then the general consensus was that rails are what you want. Nope, wrong. I've been playing for around a year, and they haven't changed at all while I've been here, and everyone thought they sucked. And yes, they still suck compared to the others, they haven't changed yet. But they will in the winter expansion (at least, that's what CCP says), and they will probably be the best weapon system again (they used to be at some point, right?)
They're been sucking for far longer than a year. They've always sucked, just not completely pointless until CCP nerfed grid to 250km. Hybrids were supposed to be buffed soonGäó for 4 winters now, I wouldn't hold my breath for one more. |
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.09.20 17:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
The only time I can think of that rails were actually "nerfed" was the introduction of stacking penalties... and that could only be thought of as a "nerf" because stacking damage mods for particularly lasers wasn't so much "faster kills" as it was "more overkill" (and even back then for cruiser/frigate fits it was already popular to tack lasers or arty on gallente/caldari hulls because they'd still out-perform the equivalent hybrid).
There are stupidly huge gaps in when I've played but every time I come back rails (hybrids in general) are always the same "ho-hum" weapons that aren't terrible looked at in a vacuum, but which never stack up to anythig else once you look at other guns, and especially once you look at gun+ship combinations. Really, the question I have is, "are rails really the same?"
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
5
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Posted - 2011.09.20 18:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:CCP nerfed grid to 250km
What're you talking about? Grids have always been 250km (or more if you know some grid-fu). However, locking range has always maxed out at 249.99km, so shooting further than 250km is wasted range.
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Demon Azrakel
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
30
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Posted - 2011.09.20 20:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Range of rails was designed for sniping, but Apoc does better damage at that range (another ship with bonuses that makes it perform better than rails). Sniping sucks, see: combat scanners (you want to be within 150 km of enemy fleet, otherwise they will warp to you and **** you with (moderately) close range weapons (blasters are still **** for this) under your guns). 10 second reload time on rails. Rails use cap. Rails have poor alpha. Only slightly more dps than artillery, which does not use cap and, on top of that, it takes a good amount of time for rails to have done more damage consistently (see alpha and the duration in which artillery has done more damage because they did the damage first). Terribad fitting in comparison to Minmitar (wtf is the Maelstrom, a shield tanker, doing with the powergrid of an Abbadon, an armor ship designed to use lasers, which actually have high pg usage, anyway?) |
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Demon Azrakel
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
30
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Posted - 2011.09.20 20:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Goose99 wrote:CCP nerfed grid to 250km What're you talking about? Grids have always been 250km (or more if you know some grid-fu). However, locking range has always maxed out at 249.99km, so shooting further than 250km is wasted range.
I never understood the whole point of 250 km range, if someone wants to gimp their setup and dps to shoot out at 350, only to get scanned and warped to, by all means let them... |
Noisrevbus
0
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Posted - 2011.09.20 21:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lasers: have higher damage AND no forced reload (ammo) AND instant-selectable lenses (range, limited damage type) AND a superior short-range performance AND are easier to fit on their respective ships.
Projectiles: have higer alpha WHILE maintaining comparable damage at breakpoint ranges AND selectable damage types, AND no cap usage (not as important on LR systems, with the infrequency of neuts, still...) AND purpose-built ammo AND a better short-range performance AND are easier to fit on their respective ships.
Hybrids (Rails): have less demand on cap (possibly ammo, can't remember) but suffer both immidiate drawbacks at once; being shut down by lack of capacitor or lack of ammunition in many tactical scenarios (wether that is by pushing mwd too hard, or forced uptime on reload to being neuted out completely or effectively running out of ammo).
They have a longer range, but few ships can capitalize on it, since between competing with the other systems around the longest automated warp-to distance of 100km and the probe-warpable distance of 150km their engagement envelope has become exceedingly small (eg., they are almost as good around 100-120km but suffer far more in the 0-100km [0-120] distance than they gain in the 120-150km [120-250] distance).
They also suffer other inherent drawbacks on many ships, such as lacking slots to capitalize on their potential range-advantage while maintaining peak performance, in part, because fitting issues eat into additional slots (ie., in order to fit a sensor booster to extend lockrange to a range where they can potentially switch out an [at breakpoint] high-damage ammo type to a longer ranged one, they are forced to give up on other mods [damage, tracking] that ensure their competition at the breakpoint).
That last bit is pretty abstract, so let me illustrate with this time-proven example: (it's probably the 10th time i use it over the past 3 years)
A thorium Eagle has about 240dps around 100km (+29), a natural breakpoint. That is quite similar to the turret-damage from a similarily purpose-built Muninn. The Eagle would have a 200km+ range with spike, but his lock-range is only 140km, even when running with sensor-range scripts. He could find place for an additional rig, enhancer or booster but that would implicate removing a reactor, stabilizer, enhancer, computer or rig; which would drop his 100km performance with thorium. At the end of the day, there's never any point for him to switch his ammo beyond 100km because of the envelope and falloff-to-type ratios (at shorter distance, there are other choices of course, but there he vastly underperform other racial options). He's built for around 100km engagement anyway, since under existing mechanics and balance the ideal "long range" is 80-140km (out of base HM-spam and L-Scorch/Barrage range, with some marginal to 150km warp-range). That has not changed since the nano-nerf in 2008.
The example fit is 1x TE, 3x MFS, 1x MWD, 1x LSE, 2x TC, 1x SBo, 5x 250mm, 1x empty/offline highslot, 2x ACR, 3% PG implant. Built to replicate overall stats of the popular post-nano era LR-HACs based around the Zealot and Muninn (mainly popular 2009-2010). The example also emphasize one of the most common complaints about Hybrids overall - without even being able to fill all slots, it still uses 2x PG mods and 1x PG implant - that's not competetive.
If it was just a question of alpha vs. tracking @ 100km, the balance would be tolerable - but now the Muninn also have drones, two utility slots it can actually fill with something useful (drone range, anti-tackle, etc.) and much better mobility. All of which are key to it's performance, beyond alpha. The Eagle can't capitalize on it's bonused signature brands of range and tank. Bringing an Eagle like that to a fleet of Muninns (or a Ferox/Brutix among alpha Canes, a Rokh/Mega among alpha Maels and so forth) should be met with ridicule. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Crimson Legion
0
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Posted - 2011.09.20 22:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ex Gallente here: used to use rails for missioning. Then realized they are good for aggro then used drones. Maxed out drone skills. Now I am completely Caldari pilot because rails and blasters are that bad. |
Joss56
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.09.21 13:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
FireT wrote:Ex Gallente here: used to use rails for missioning. Then realized they are good for aggro then used drones. Maxed out drone skills. Now I am completely Caldari pilot because rails and blasters are that bad.
Gallente too but cross trained Minmatar.
I often use autos in my gallente setups for lols and it's always ridiculous how autos perform much better than blasters because of small but important differences: range and dmg application.
The one I can get out of my head right now that works better than autos in said niche is the Proteus with +Op+dmg and drones but even then it can cap out just by shooting it's ammo, it's ridiculous. |
Captain Sage
Hole Spectors
0
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Posted - 2011.09.21 14:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bring back the sniper Mega!! Fear my pets!! |
Theodemir
Do No Action
5
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Posted - 2011.09.21 15:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
My Harpy loves railguns |
Naso Gomez
Astral Edge Irrelevant.
0
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Posted - 2011.09.21 18:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Uses a kronos with rails, feels bad after reading this post
I don't find them to be that bad, I primarily just do missions and can hit most everything fine. But then again, It's not like I have been behind the wheel of Amarr Lazers or Minmatar Guns, so I have nothing to compare them too.
All of my skills for supporting turrets are 5 so if I where to switch, what racial turret would be better? |
FT Diomedes
Factio Paucorum
2
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Posted - 2011.09.21 23:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Naso Gomez wrote:Uses a kronos with rails, feels bad after reading this post
I don't find them to be that bad, I primarily just do missions and can hit most everything fine. But then again, It's not like I have been behind the wheel of Amarr Lazers or Minmatar Guns, so I have nothing to compare them too.
All of my skills for supporting turrets are 5 so if I where to switch, what racial turret would be better?
I would crosstrain to Minmatar if I were you. The Machariel is a ridiculously good ship. I crosstrained from Gallente to Amarr first and I don't regret it, but Minmatar opens up the Angel ships. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.09.21 23:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Put it this way, they have the tracking of siege cannons an the punch of a wet marshmellow. |
Naso Gomez
Astral Edge Irrelevant.
0
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Posted - 2011.09.22 01:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I would crosstrain to Minmatar if I were you. The Machariel is a ridiculously good ship. I cross trained from Gallente to Amarr first and I don't regret it, but Minmatar opens up the Angel ships. When I first started eve, my friends that didn't know much threw me into a rokh, I hate them for every moment of it. I spent a lot of time trying to get it good, so I trained hybrids. Later to find out they suck on caldari, so i changed to gel since they had a damage mod, and later to find out again, they are not as good as others. So here we go again, minmatar don't fail me! |
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