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Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.12 19:11:00 -
[1]
I have a relatively small number of skill points (Less than 2 million), and am wondering about what the future holds for my mission running.
I currently fly a Jaguar, and I love it. According to EFT, I can eventually push it to 14,000 effective HP with 68 defense and 122 DPS. This seems quite impressive for a frigate-sized vessel, but I have questions.
Namely, is it possible (not even practical, just POSSIBLE) to run level 4 missions with a Jaguar? I know the minute signature radius will make it virtually immune to L4 mission missiles, and turrets will almost never hit it. I have seen missions sig-tanked in cruisers, so my AF should fare better in that regard. To that end, I feel that my shortcoming will be DPS.
Now, I know that the Wolf is capable of pushing over 200 DPS, which is enough to do a L4, but the Jaguar has to sacrifice tank to do that much.
I guess my question is the simple one I've already stated: Can a Jaguar do Level 4 missions? I love small ships, to be honest, and don't want to be forced to move up into something bigger. If the Jaguar can't do L4s, should I just settle for eventually doing L3s when I get that far?
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Welikealts
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Posted - 2010.01.12 19:17:00 -
[2]
I have heard of AF's running L4's before, but not the massive kill fests like Extrav. etc. However, I think ~120 applied dps is enough to kill most BS spawns in L4s, it might take like 5+ mins for a high bounty, but I don't think any of them have tanks over 150.
Anecdotal, ofc.
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Canaloney Soup
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Posted - 2010.01.12 19:24:00 -
[3]
I've done lvl 4 in a wolf, long as you kill web frigs first it plan sailing after that
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Ran Khanon
Amarr Vengeance Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.12 19:36:00 -
[4]
Sounds like fun actually.
I would be terrified of stasis towers and spider drones though. How did you fare with those in lvl 3's?
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Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.12 19:37:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ediana Venar on 12/01/2010 19:37:40 I haven't done L3s yet. I'm still on L1s. I just started mission running.
As you can imagine, L1s are an absolute joke. Even with my low skills, I passively tank more than they can put out.
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Ran Khanon
Amarr Vengeance Innovations
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Posted - 2010.01.12 19:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ediana Venar Edited by: Ediana Venar on 12/01/2010 19:37:40 I haven't done L3s yet. I'm still on L1s. I just started mission running.
As you can imagine, L1s are an absolute joke. Even with my low skills, I passively tank more than they can put out.
Ah I see :) Lvl 2's won't be much harder I think. The first real test would be (some) lvl 3's. Just see how it goes for you. I can imagine you would get bored eventually because of killing BS's in that would take pretty long. And watch out for anything that webs you :)
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2010.01.12 19:50:00 -
[7]
There are a couple of battleships I don't think you'll be able to break with that. The Minmatar ambassador in Driving A Wedge 2 of 2 (level 3) and the named guy in Vengeance (level 4) both spring to mind. I'd think level 4 Stop The Thief would also be fun (4 spider drones plus at least 6 elite frigates). ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.01.12 20:04:00 -
[8]
Using a jag to run level 4 missions solo might be a neat technical challenge but its going to royaly stink as an isk making venture as you would probably make more isk an hour spamming high quality level 2 agent missions in it. If you are hellbent on using it though a jag would best be used as the aggro taker letting a max dps fit bs clear the room fast.
Originally by: Akita T We don't hate people like you, we look at you with mostly pity and a hint of disgust balled up in a big wad of "notto disu shi'tto agen".
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Ava Starfire
Minmatar Nordanverdr Modr
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Posted - 2010.01.12 20:19:00 -
[9]
I used a jag for my primary (read: Only) mission ship for a long time. It breezes through level 2s, and 3s are doable (kill anything webby FIRST) and 4s, well...as long as you kill webby scrambly frigates, are quite doable. Just prepare to spend 5+ minutes on rats like seraphims.
Wolf is a bit better, the extra gun helps. MSE, AB, a couple SPRs, a couple gyros, and a nos to slow down rat repair rate makes for a fun break from normal BS-grinding of level 4s.
In short, yes, its totally doable. Not fast, but doable. Space is fun! |
Mara Abraham
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.12 20:29:00 -
[10]
Greetings Ediana:
Do you mind posting your build?
I tried some EFT variations; and, while I could come up with the DPS, even at all level 5 skills could not come up with the tank portion while maintaining the dps side. I'm probably doing something wrong.
Thank you.
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Orbit Uranus
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.01.12 22:22:00 -
[11]
you could easily tank any level 4 in a jag/wolf, but it would be annoying as heck to try to pop those bs's What i do is use my low skilled BS pilot for DPS (it cant tank) and let the AF tank the missions
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Helene Troi
Gallente Crimson Umbra
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Posted - 2010.01.12 23:21:00 -
[12]
Consider a sabre for extra dps if needed...
I've run a bunch of lvl 4's in sabre for laughs including popping the named BS...
Is this the face that launched a thousand rifters? |
d3vo
Isotope Laboratories
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Posted - 2010.01.13 06:30:00 -
[13]
The elite cruisers can hit almost as hard as a BS. Same goes with tank. I wouldn't take a frig to a lvl4 mission. At least a HAC.
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.01.13 08:03:00 -
[14]
AFs: Fun=YES Practical=NO
Sure have fun with the Jag, it is a blast. But don't be misled that it can bring you very far.
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Ernesto DaSilva
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Posted - 2010.01.13 09:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mara Abraham I tried some EFT variations; and, while I could come up with the DPS, even at all level 5 skills could not come up with the tank portion while maintaining the dps side. I'm probably doing something wrong.
When doing lvl3/4 missions in a frig, speed is your main tank.
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Mara Abraham
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 13:35:00 -
[16]
Good day:
Understood on speed being the tank; my commentary was on the original post of 14,000 effective HP with 68 defense and 122 DPS. While I could easily come up with the DPS figures, I could come no where near the effective HP and defense while keeping the DPS. Hence, my request for the build.
On the Sabre note, while it would take me a while to get there, if all at level 5, it was easy to get to 350 DPS with a tank slightly better than my current Trasher.
Thank you.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.13 16:25:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Othran on 13/01/2010 16:27:00 [Jaguar, Active Shield] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Gyrostabilizer II
Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner Medium Shield Extender II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S Corpii C-Type Small Nosferatu
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
That's probably the "14k EHP" fit. Its only 14k to thermal/EM though. The Gistii-B shield booster is compulsory, T2 or meta 4 won't do I'm afraid. The fit above is cap stable at 66% for me. Prior to the projectile changes it couldn't be killed by another Jag (regardless of fit) but I haven't tested since.
Edit - that's a PvP fit so I guess for PvE you'd drop the scram and fit a hardener. Another gyro is an option but the PDS2 allows a MSE2 to be fitted and bumps recharge.
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Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 16:26:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Ediana Venar on 13/01/2010 16:36:16 Here is the build.
[Jaguar, PvP] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Partial Power Plant Manager: Diagnostic System
Medium Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II 1MN Afterburner II Fleeting Progressive Warp Scrambler I
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Note that I was only able to get 122 DPS using faction ammo, but also that this is a PvP fit.
However, with this build:
[Jaguar, PvE] Damage Control II Beta Reactor Control: Diagnostic System I Marked Generator Refitting: Diagnostic System
Medium Shield Extender II Shield Recharger II Invulnerability Field II 1MN Afterburner II
150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
I have approximately the same effective hit points, only 2 less DPS, and 80 defense instead of 68, at the expense of not being able to point, which isn't important in missions. You can exchange the extenders for purgers, which costs you around 3000 HP, but increases your defense to 94...probably better for missions, where defense is more important than buffer.
Also, Othran's statement that it only has 14k against EM/Thermal is inaccurate. It actually has over 20k against EM, and over 16k against Thermal. Here's the actual breakdown: Effective HP (Defense) versus damage types:
- Omni: 14,285 (80)
- EM: 28,034 (140)
- Thermal: 16,098 (87)
- Explosive: 12,349 (70)
- Kinetic: 10,879 (58)
Also, it's important to note that the tank on this ship is purely passive. You could probably get more defense if you fit it for active tank, but I wanted passive tank because this was originally a PvP fit and I didn't want to have to worry about my capacitor as much. Also, you can swap the Shield Recharger for a Shield Extender if you want more EHP, which gives you roughly 2,000 more HP vs. Kinetic, up to 3,000 more vs. EM, and only a negligible decrease in defense. Or you could put a passive kinetic hardener in there, too.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.13 16:42:00 -
[19]
I was talking about the fit I posted, not the fit you posted after me
That passive tank is going to get your Jag killed in most 1v1s with AFs but we digress as the OP is into PvE
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Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 16:44:00 -
[20]
Well, no, you were right about the kinetic/thermal weaknesses, generally speaking. I hadn't considered faction fitting my ship (I can't afford that), but with faction modules you can make it even beefier.
It's still pretty nasty in PvP. The best thing about a pure passive tank is that you don't lose all of your defense if you get neutralized...nor do you lose your offense with projectiles.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.13 16:48:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Othran on 13/01/2010 16:56:23 Edited by: Othran on 13/01/2010 16:55:30 That's what the nos is for Incidentally you can nos npcs (most people don't know that) so pick a big npc that can't hit you and suck away
The Gistii-B small shield booster is simply awesome. It is actually worth the 30-40mill they sell for. I didn't believe it until I tried them out but I'm converted :)
Edit - you are aware that EFT INCLUDES your defence in the overall EHP yeah? ie you don't have 19k EHP then the reinforced defence on top of that, its 19k TOTAL, which assumes your hardeners are running all the time. Try turning your invuln field on and off in EFT if you weren't aware of this (I'm sure you were).
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Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 16:52:00 -
[22]
Yeah, the complex items are pretty nice. I personally just HATE using active tank, though. Personal pet peeve, so to speak. I do understand it's sometimes necessary to get the most out of a ship, however...
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Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 16:58:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ediana Venar on 13/01/2010 17:03:30 Oh, btw. I SEE your active complex tank, and raise a passive faction tank that exchanges ~20 defense for ~20 DPS, and has 2000 more effective HP and about 1km longer effective range! Ha!
[Jaguar, PvP Passive] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Gyrostabilizer II
Caldari Navy Medium Shield Extender Caldari Navy Warp Scrambler Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket
Small Core Defence Field Purger I Small Core Defence Field Purger I
Edit: I WAS aware of this, but are you aware that you can't cap someone out with a nos? You can't drain energy with a nos if your target's cap is equal to or less than your own.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.13 17:09:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Othran on 13/01/2010 17:12:28 Edited by: Othran on 13/01/2010 17:11:19 Still going to die. You have 16 more DPS (in practice the 125s put out more DPS than 150s in an AF 1v1) but 20 less sustained defence. Even if the 125s weren't better in a real fight you are still going to lose as your fit has less shield than mine and I can sustain it longer
That's the gistii-b SB
Edit - yes I have a passing familiarity with nos used in PvP and the figure you're looking for is 30% - you can't drain below that. I have a couple of hundred PvP kills so I have tried these things out
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Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 17:13:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ediana Venar on 13/01/2010 17:13:50
Originally by: Othran Still going to die. You have 16 more DPS (in practice the 125s put out more DPS than 150s in an AF 1v1) but 20 less sustained defence. Even if the 125s weren't better in a real fight you are still going to lose as your fit has less shield than mine and I can sustain it longer
That's the gistii-b SB
Actually, if you're using EMP ammo, I only have 17 less sustained defense with 16 more DPS, but I have 3,000 more effective HP against EMP ammo (my fit has better resistances, after all). Plus, I have 700m more effective range, so at any given distance I'm going to have a slight accuracy advantage. I'm pretty sure you would run out of hit points before I did
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.13 17:26:00 -
[26]
Why on earth would I go for your strongest resist in a 1v1?
You won't get anywhere close to the raw DPS that EFT shows you but in order to get a better idea you need to use the DPS graph. You'll see that even when target and attacker are at just +/-60% of max velocity then you're down to 80DPS and I'm at 70DPS.
If you want to put all that faction kit on and meet for a 1v1 then just say - I'm there like a shot. Bound to be at least one of them drops from your ship
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Polymeric Jane
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Posted - 2010.01.13 17:29:00 -
[27]
Don't bother to fly any ship below 300 dps in L4s. I would suggest you train for HACs. With *good* skills and some cheap complex gear they can do L4 quit fast and are fun to fly (at least not as clumsy as BS). |
Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 17:42:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ediana Venar on 13/01/2010 17:47:53 Edited by: Ediana Venar on 13/01/2010 17:45:38 Edited by: Ediana Venar on 13/01/2010 17:42:44 I only have 1.5 million skill points, so you'll be waiting for a while until I have all of the necessary skills at level V.
Against a Jaguar, I'd be using Fusion ammo and Phalanx rockets, anyway. Besides, if you check ANY damage type, you'll see that my margin of EHP advantage and defense is the same. Since we'd both be using explosive ammo, we can use that as the benchmark. In that instance, using a DPS graph, I actually have a ~18 DPS advantage over you while stationary, and ~10 DPS advantage with worst-case transversal, even considering my larger autocannons.
It's also important to note that with fusion ammo, you only have 12 more defense than I do, and still have about 2,000 less effective HP.
If you load up the DPS graph, you will see that any change in transversal lowers your DPS more severely than it lowers mine. Barring the fact that both ships have identical agility, speed, and signature radii, any change in transversal is going to benefit me more than it will you.
The reason for this is that a portion of my DPS comes from rockets, which are completely immune to transversal changes and still inflict a fair portion of damage on your Jaguar regardless of speed thanks to the increased signature radius granted by your shield extender.
Even if my turrets have a slightly harder time hitting you (that is, before we stabilize range, since neither ship can outmaneuver the other), the rockets are easily going to make up the difference.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.13 17:56:00 -
[29]
If you ever get into PvP you'll look back on this and cringe My early Jag fits looked like your current passive(ish) fits. They didn't do well
[Jaguar, Active Shield] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S Corpii C-Type Small Nosferatu
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
That's the "normal" PvP fit for me, hence why the orginal fit I posted had a J5b rather than one of the better scrams (cpu). That gives 165DPS for me in theory but if I was to get a sustained 100DPS in a real fight with another Jag (and an experienced pilot) I'd be frankly astonished.
Might sound a bit "elitist" but if so its not meant to. You have to try fits out and find what works - and "EFT perfection" usually isn't it, despite how alluring it appears
Personally I did L2 missions with a Rifter to get standings then binned missions completely. PvP seems like a better use for ships and trade seems like an easier (ie less boring) way to make cash.
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Ediana Venar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 18:00:00 -
[30]
We'll test that theory once I max out my Jaguar, I guess
In the meantime, I've got a lot of skill training ahead of me.
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