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Daphne Mezereum
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.13 19:03:00 -
[1]
There has been a lot of discussion about the economic aspects of EVE lately (and I have been re-discovering my passion for sane economics), so, as an argument-proving point, I'd like to know if there exists a (detailed) (daily) report on ISK volumes in EVE. For the sake of sanity, lets assume that all activities either generate ISK or degenerate ISK.
Aka: -how much ISK is injected into the EVE economy on a (timeperiod) basis? -how much of this ISK comes due to missions, mining, etc? - how much ISK is injected via PLEX sales? - how much ISK is removed via PVP, ship and module loss? - how much ISK is simply stockpiled? - how far in the positive are the (timeperiod) average ISK balances for EVE?
And, if such a report does not exist yet, we could start to guesstimate it.
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Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2010.01.13 19:12:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum
- how much ISK is injected via PLEX sales?
This one is easy exactly 0isk because it doesn't create ISK it just transfers it ;) Rally Against Evil Site |
Lork Niffle
Gallente External Hard Drive
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Posted - 2010.01.13 19:18:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum There has been a lot of discussion about the economic aspects of EVE lately (and I have been re-discovering my passion for sane economics), so, as an argument-proving point, I'd like to know if there exists a (detailed) (daily) report on ISK volumes in EVE. For the sake of sanity, lets assume that all activities either generate ISK or degenerate ISK.
Aka:
-how much of this ISK comes due to mining, etc - how much ISK is injected via PLEX sales?
- None, mining is based on what someone cosidered worthwhile for your ore. - None, again this is what someone considers worthwhile for 1 months play.
There is the quarterly economic report that will probbly answer some of these questions. ------------------------------------- The system issues man. |
N'tek alar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 19:18:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum There has been a lot of discussion about the economic aspects of EVE lately (and I have been re-discovering my passion for sane economics), so, as an argument-proving point, I'd like to know if there exists a (detailed) (daily) report on ISK volumes in EVE. For the sake of sanity, lets assume that all activities either generate ISK or degenerate ISK.
Aka: -how much ISK is injected into the EVE economy on a (timeperiod) basis? -how much of this ISK comes due to missions, mining, etc? - how much ISK is injected via PLEX sales? - how much ISK is removed via PVP, ship and module loss? - how much ISK is simply stockpiled? - how far in the positive are the (timeperiod) average ISK balances for EVE?
And, if such a report does not exist yet, we could start to guesstimate it.
Through mining and plex sales it's the same, None, In both those cases isk is simply transferred between players.
Likewise, PVP doesn't remove any isk either, In fact, Ship losses INJECT isk due to insurance, The isk you paid for that ship, and the modules fitted to it doesn't disappear because the ship dies, if it did i imagine the seller would be rather annoyed. ------------------------- I'm not shirtless damnit! |
Naran Darkmood
Gallente BlackSite Prophecy 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.13 19:18:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Naran Darkmood on 13/01/2010 19:18:57
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum
-how much of this ISK comes due mining, etc?
once again, exactly 0 isk
edit: last!!
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Don't worry, CCP. We here at Suddenly NinjasÖ are working hard to add social interaction to generic missions
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.01.13 19:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum ... - how much ISK is removed via PVP, ship and module loss? - how much ISK is simply stockpiled? ...
PVP generally makes ISK through ship insurance. there is some loss for manufacture costs, and faction gear, but generally less than what is gained through insurance.
as for stockpiles, it's effectively impossible to determine.
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Sumelar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 19:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum ... - how much ISK is removed via PVP, ship and module loss? - how much ISK is simply stockpiled? ...
PVP generally makes ISK through ship insurance. there is some loss for manufacture costs, and faction gear, but generally less than what is gained through insurance.
as for stockpiles, it's effectively impossible to determine.
Unless you're using all T1 modules, or no modules at all, the total cost of the ship is still more than the insurance payout. Remember you have to pay for insurance too. The only reason insurance fraud works is because people don't use modules, which doesnt happen in pvp.
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N'tek alar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 19:35:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sumelar
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum ... - how much ISK is removed via PVP, ship and module loss? - how much ISK is simply stockpiled? ...
PVP generally makes ISK through ship insurance. there is some loss for manufacture costs, and faction gear, but generally less than what is gained through insurance.
as for stockpiles, it's effectively impossible to determine.
Unless you're using all T1 modules, or no modules at all, the total cost of the ship is still more than the insurance payout. Remember you have to pay for insurance too. The only reason insurance fraud works is because people don't use modules, which doesnt happen in pvp.
That doesn't mean the isk magically disappears, It will still remain right in the wallet of whomever you bought the modules from >_> ------------------------- I'm not shirtless damnit! |
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.13 20:11:00 -
[9]
Events that generate ISK:- Destroying NPCs with a bounty
- Completing missions
- Selling to NPC buy orders
- Ship destruction
Events that remove ISK:- Trade
- Research & manufacturing
- Buying from NPC sell orders
- Buying from the LP store
- (Expired) insurance contracts
- Clone upgrades & installation
- NPC repair facilities
- Corp/alliance creation
- Wardecs
- Sov maintenance
…and I think that pretty much covers it, although I might have missed something. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Daphne Mezereum
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.13 20:18:00 -
[10]
How does non-NPC trade remove ISK from the overall ISK volume of EVE? Trade is only a duct between two containers of ISK, not a sink on one of them. Or I might be dead wrong.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.13 20:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum How does non-NPC trade remove ISK from the overall ISK volume of EVE? Trade is only a duct between two containers of ISK, not a sink on one of them. Or I might be dead wrong.
Fees and taxes. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Amanda Mor
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Posted - 2010.01.13 20:21:00 -
[12]
As stated, only a few of the things you listed actually generate "fresh" isk into the economy - mission rewards, rat bounties, insurance, and NPC buy orders. Mining creates new things (ie minerals), but not isk.
As well, very few things take isk directly out of the economy - skill books bought from NPC's for example. Module loss takes things out of the economy, but doesn't take out isk directly (exact opposite of mining).
However, it would probably be interesting to know the isk flow from each of these activities - for example, how much isk is "lost" in PvP in a typical day/week/month (recognizing that the isk isn't actually lost), or how much isk is moved around due to PLEX sales etc. Is this actually what you were asking for?
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cal nereus
Cal Temp Agency
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Posted - 2010.01.13 20:24:00 -
[13]
When it comes to creating new isk in the economy, the principal source that comes to my mind is NPC rat bounties. As for isk that vanishes, I notice trade taxes and NPC corp taxes serve as an isk vacuum. Most activities in Eve neither create nor destroy isk, but instead simply move it from one wallet to another. --- Clear Skies Clear Skies 2 |
Ticarus Hellbrandt
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Posted - 2010.01.13 20:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum How does non-NPC trade remove ISK from the overall ISK volume of EVE? Trade is only a duct between two containers of ISK, not a sink on one of them. Or I might be dead wrong.
for the standard player the fees are 0.01% and tax 0.01% so 20million for every billion traded
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Daphne Mezereum
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.13 20:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Amanda Mor
However, it would probably be interesting to know the isk flow from each of these activities - for example, how much isk is "lost" in PvP in a typical day/week/month (recognizing that the isk isn't actually lost), or how much isk is moved around due to PLEX sales etc. Is this actually what you were asking for?
Yes.
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Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.13 21:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ticarus Hellbrandt
for the standard player the fees are 0.01% and tax 0.01% so 20million for every billion traded
Corrected for you: for the standard player the fees are 1.00% broker fee and tax 1.00%
So you buy something on buy order, then that contains 1% broker fee. When you sell something, then 1% broker, and 1% tax.
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Dex Timor
Forza Di Colpo
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Posted - 2010.01.13 21:34:00 -
[17]
Link to QEN 1
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Daphne Mezereum
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.13 22:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dex Timor Link to QEN 1
Thank you! Quite outdated, but still, this points towards a massive stockpiling. Would it not be at least interesting to deplete these stockpiles at least a little?
Snapshots: "Net faucets for ISK into EVE. Daily average net addition of ISK into EVE increases from 130 billion ISK to 200 ISK by the end of the third quarter."
"Net faucets for ISK into EVE. Daily average net addition of ISK into EVE increases from 130 billion ISK to 200 ISK by the end of the third quarter."
Inflation?
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2010.01.13 22:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum Inflation?
No, cause at the same time as all this ISK is being injected into the system, miners, POSes and mission runners are creating stuff that the ISK can be spent on.
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Cibo Seidensha
Amarr Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.01.13 23:00:00 -
[20]
With mining (and bpos) you can create ships, which you can insure, which then gives you +ISK on destruction. Same can be said for rat loot once you reprocess it. So they both do inject ISK into the economy.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.01.13 23:11:00 -
[21]
The ISK is loud today and I predict a cacaphony coming next month with a long winded almost silence from ISK whines and mucho negative balancing of wallets.
Overall, I would advise wearing earplugs when opening the market. --------
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Dex Timor
Forza Di Colpo
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Posted - 2010.01.14 08:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum
Thank you! Quite outdated, but still, this points towards a massive stockpiling.
There are more QENs, I used GOOGLE to find the one I linked. I linked it, because it was the first one and because it details how EVE's economy works.
There have been quite some changes since then: - there Moonmining scandal, where a bunch of people massively exploited a bug (and got their deserved bans in the end) - there was the macro mission runner ban campaign "holy rage"
In both cases there was ISK removed from the game and accounts were banned. CCP employs an economist (the guy who writes the QENs) to monitor inflation among other things.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2010.01.14 08:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum Inflation?
No, cause at the same time as all this ISK is being injected into the system, miners, POSes and mission runners are creating stuff that the ISK can be spent on.
Wrong. Money spent on items created by other players are simply transferred between players and does not leave the game. It still contributes to inflation. The only things that remove ISK from the game was listed above by Tippia. One thing she forgot though was that ISK also leave the game when players stop playing for good....
The EVE economy at the moment is not in a good state. The 'central bank' is pumping out massive amounts of new money (through insurance) to keep employment up (keep miners etc. happy and continuing to pay subscriptions), ie. more or less the same as if a real-life government was buying up half the stuff produced by factories and destroying it. In RL this would end in disaster, but in a game like this it may work to some degree as there are no external trading partners. It is still not a healthy, free economy, and will eventually crash when money is so abundant that essentially it becomes worthless....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.14 08:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cibo Seidensha With mining (and bpos) you can create ships, which you can insure, which then gives you +ISK on destruction. Same can be said for rat loot once you reprocess it. So they both do inject ISK into the economy.
No, that's still the insurance mechanism that does the injection (or, technically, conversion from item to ISK).
Mining and looting inject things that could potentially be used to create ISK, but they don't create any ISK in and of themselves. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Dex Timor
Forza Di Colpo
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Posted - 2010.01.14 09:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kerfira
The 'central bank' is pumping out massive amounts of new money (through insurance) to keep employment up (keep miners etc. happy and continuing to pay subscriptions), ie. <snip> ... will eventually crash when money is so abundant that essentially it becomes worthless....
I assume you're referring to the Hulkageddon stimulus package ?
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Military Research and Manufacturing Corp.
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Posted - 2010.01.14 09:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum Inflation?
No, cause at the same time as all this ISK is being injected into the system, miners, POSes and mission runners are creating stuff that the ISK can be spent on.
Exactly. What's happening is that Eve is becoming wealthier. Prices, overall on average, are actually relatively stable over time.
Originally by: Akita T this whole game is just me playing with myself
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2010.01.14 09:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kerfira
The EVE economy at the moment is not in a good state.
That's quite a claim to make.
Care to back up your statement with facts?
The amount of ISK in an economy is really quite worthless as a factor for anything. What matters is the price inflation.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Military Research and Manufacturing Corp.
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Posted - 2010.01.14 09:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Daphne Mezereum lets assume that all activities either generate ISK or degenerate ISK.
Many activities don't do either of those.
Quote: -how much of this ISK comes due to missions,
Missions inject a fair amount of money, but they also bring in modules, minerals, salvage, and faction items. That helps counteract the money brought into the system as far as inflation goes.
Quote: mining
Adds no money whatsoever, but it brings in minerals, which helps keep inflation at bay.
Quote: - how much ISK is injected via PLEX sales?
None whatsoever.
Quote: - how much ISK is removed via PVP, ship and module loss?
Extremely little (from fees and sales tax) and a lot more is added through insurance. Also, the destruction of ships and modules actually helps inflation the same way adding money into the economy does.
Quote: - how far in the positive are the (timeperiod) average ISK balances for EVE?
As long as ths number of players and the amount of goods being produced are growing at a similar pace, it doesn't really matter.
Originally by: Akita T this whole game is just me playing with myself
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Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.01.14 09:30:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Quote: -how much of this ISK comes due to missions,
Missions inject a fair amount of money, but they also bring in modules, minerals, salvage, and faction items. That helps counteract the money brought into the system as far as inflation goes.
I would even say that net effect of missions on the 'isk pool' vs 'stuff pool' of EVE is negative as a result of the LP store.
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Cibo Seidensha
Amarr Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.01.14 09:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Cibo Seidensha With mining (and bpos) you can create ships, which you can insure, which then gives you +ISK on destruction. Same can be said for rat loot once you reprocess it. So they both do inject ISK into the economy.
No, that's still the insurance mechanism that does the injection (or, technically, conversion from item to ISK).
Mining and looting inject things that could potentially be used to create ISK, but they don't create any ISK in and of themselves.
The question is, if mining injects ISK into the economy. There is a direct connection from mined material to ISK over the insurance mechanism. On this basis you can calculate a base price in ISK for each material mined. So it is mining that injects ISK, because thats what a player does. It takes time and effort. The insurance is only a mechanism to cash in on that.
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