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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.01.21 06:57:00 -
[1]
Depleted Uranium projectiles are known to go critical on impact, and the resulting dust is radioactive. This will cause birth defects and mutations on the surface of any planet on which the dust settles. It's well known that some cosmic debris will settle on a planet, as is the case with dust from comets and asteroids.
I think that, regardless of the positions one takes on these wars and the reasons (or lack thereof) behind it, we need to call for a moratorium on the use of DU ammunition near planets. I think that all sides in a conflict, be it their planet, or formerly, or perhaps soon to be, should consider the long term impacts of DU ammunition and the effects on surface life. Frankly the inhabitable worlds have been around long before we arrived, and will likely be around long afterwards.
Let it start here: a moratorium on the use of DU near inhabitable worlds. Amongst friends and enemies alike, we should agree on some future and do our best to spare future life, that has no part in our conflicts, the potential of being harmed.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.01.21 07:41:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Depleted Uranium projectiles are known to go critical on impact
No.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer and the resulting dust is radioactive.
To a limited extent.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer This will cause birth defects and mutations on the surface of any planet on which the dust settles.
No.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer It's well known that some cosmic debris will settle on a planet, as is the case with dust from comets and asteroids.
No.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer I think that, regardless of the positions one takes on these wars and the reasons (or lack thereof) behind it, we need to call for a moratorium on the use of DU ammunition near planets. I think that all sides in a conflict, be it their planet, or formerly, or perhaps soon to be, should consider the long term impacts of DU ammunition and the effects on surface life. Frankly the inhabitable worlds have been around long before we arrived, and will likely be around long afterwards.
Let it start here: a moratorium on the use of DU near inhabitable worlds. Amongst friends and enemies alike, we should agree on some future and do our best to spare future life, that has no part in our conflicts, the potential of being harmed.
Shut up. Learn some proper science. -----
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Persephone Astrid
The Bastards
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Posted - 2010.01.21 07:48:00 -
[3]
Good luck with that. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.01.21 08:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Depleted Uranium projectiles are known to go critical on impact
No.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer and the resulting dust is radioactive.
To a limited extent.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer This will cause birth defects and mutations on the surface of any planet on which the dust settles.
No.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer It's well known that some cosmic debris will settle on a planet, as is the case with dust from comets and asteroids.
No.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer I think that, regardless of the positions one takes on these wars and the reasons (or lack thereof) behind it, we need to call for a moratorium on the use of DU ammunition near planets. I think that all sides in a conflict, be it their planet, or formerly, or perhaps soon to be, should consider the long term impacts of DU ammunition and the effects on surface life. Frankly the inhabitable worlds have been around long before we arrived, and will likely be around long afterwards.
Let it start here: a moratorium on the use of DU near inhabitable worlds. Amongst friends and enemies alike, we should agree on some future and do our best to spare future life, that has no part in our conflicts, the potential of being harmed.
Shut up. Learn some proper science.
The informational networks are full of evidence that proves my point. Why don't you search around a bit? Otherwise, until you find proof for your points, I can only assume you have some connection to producers of DU and that this measure I propose is going to have an effect on your profits or those you work for.
Such proof, as you should provide, might end up having to be your defense case in a court of law, so you should get started now.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.01.21 08:58:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 21/01/2010 09:01:20
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Depleted Uranium projectiles are known to go critical on impact
Depleted uranium, by definition, is a byproduct of uranium enrichment left after the U-235 isotope - the only naturally-occuring isotope of uranium capable of sustaining a chain reaction - has been removed. Compared to natural uranium, depleted uranium has less than 30% as much U-235 by volume. U-235 or some other fissile material is necessary for criticality to occur. Depleted uranium cannot go critical. This. Is. Utter. Rubbish.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer and the resulting dust is radioactive.
Laying aside the absurdity of both the former idea (DU dust being created due to DU rounds "going critical" upon impact) and the following idea (this notional DU dust settling upon planets in large enough quantities to be harmful, or indeed at all), allow me to direct you to the Galactic Encyclopaedia article on depleted uranium:
Originally by: Depleted Uranium External exposure to radiation from pure depleted uranium is less of a concern because the alpha particle emitted by its isotopes travel only a few centimeters in air or can be stopped by a sheet of paper. Also, the low concentration of uranium-235 that remains in depleted uranium emits only a small amount of low-energy gamma radiation. According to the Sisters of EVE, a radiation dose from it would be about 60 percent of that from purified natural uranium with the same mass. Approximately 90 micrograms of natural uranium, on average, exist in the human body as a result of normal intake of water, food and air. The majority of this is found in the skeleton, with the rest in various organs and tissues.
However, in a matter of a month or so, depleted uranium generates amounts of thorium-234 and protactinium-234 which emit beta particles at almost the same rate as that of the alpha particles from the uranium-238. Two beta particles are emitted for each alpha particle.
The radiological dangers of pure depleted uranium are lower (60 percent) than those of naturally-occurring uranium due to the removal of the more radioactive isotopes, as well as due to its long half-life (4.46 billion years). Depleted uranium differs from natural uranium in its isotopic composition, but its biochemistry is for the most part the same.
Thus, the danger in DU lies more in the regions of heavy metal toxicity rather than in radioactivity. While this would still present a significant issue were large amounts of the substance to be released into the environment of a habitable planet, we must now address these claims:
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer This will cause birth defects and mutations on the surface of any planet on which the dust settles.
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer It's well known that some cosmic debris will settle on a planet, as is the case with dust from comets and asteroids.
What you're proposing is that a material multiple studies have shown does not cause statistically significant health issues if properly handled, used in quantities that, at a rough estimate, probably measure a few hundred metric tonnes at most per conflict, usually in areas in extreme-high orbit (when was the last time you found anything - a station, a gate, an asteroid belt - that was parked in low orbit, i.e. 160-2000 km up from the surface?) can rain down in the form of dust on a planet with an atmosphere whose mass is measured somewhere around 5 quadrillion (5,000,000,000,000,000 or 5*10^15) metric tonnes and, managing to get to the ground through, ooh, say, about 100 clicks of atmosphere and atmospheric phenomena, accumulate in large enough quantities in a single place to cause birth defects?
Seriously, I want to know: what in the unholy **** are you smoking? -----
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Katy Moore
Amarr J. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2010.01.21 14:00:00 -
[6]
Ammunition is trivial, and any contamination from ammunition dust alone poses such a small risk as to be laughable.
Of Many orders of magnitude greater and far more serious, is the contamination from starship wrecks, which have in the past, fallen onto inhabited worlds, causing much destruction and disease.
Most notable in recent times is the fallout on Sarum Prime III, better known as Mekhios.
Amarrian Science at its finest |
Sinti Vailatti
Kuomi Logistics
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Posted - 2010.01.21 15:30:00 -
[7]
FYI:
The half life of depleted uranium is 4.5 billion years.
Just sayin'
KUOMI LOGISTICS: The bright future, today!Ö |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.01.21 16:23:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sinti Vailatti FYI:
The half life of depleted uranium is 4.5 billion years.
Which means that the amount of radiation it releases during any logistically feasible measuring period is exceptionally small. I'm unsure whether your intent was to back up his argument or mine. Would you care to clarify? -----
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Lucius Vindictus
Amarr Order of the Black Cross
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Posted - 2010.01.21 16:37:00 -
[9]
I'm with Andreus on this one. Depleted Uranium should be handled with care, just like any ammunition. But to spread a scare and misinformation about it's nature isn't going to help anyone.
And as Katy pointed out there are the millions of spaceship wrecks near planets to consider. Imagine the combined toxic materials seeping from those, and the threat they pose when large pieces fall onto a planet. On top of that there are man-created viral agents e without available antidotes out there, rogue- and sleeper drones, genetically engineered killer-furriers who want to eat our brains (I'm not even joking) and many, many far graver threats out there that are far more deserving of our attention.
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Persephone Astrid
The Bastards
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Posted - 2010.01.22 00:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lucius Vindictus I'm with Andreus on this one. Depleted Uranium should be handled with care, just like any ammunition. But to spread a scare and misinformation about it's nature isn't going to help anyone.
This. Seriously. Just don't eat any DU ammo or anything and you should be fine. |
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Sinti Vailatti
Kuomi Logistics
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Posted - 2010.01.22 01:29:00 -
[11]
Which side? Neither? Both?
The DU in space isn't so much of a danger unless you're a salvager and you bring stuff on your ship. But I'm sure we all have crews that follow standard decontamination protocols. In space, cosmic rays will kill you quicker, so no one realy pays attention to the lesser dangers like DU dust.
You might think that a small ship would burn up completly in a atmosphere, but even large comm satillites need to be brought in carefully. So he's not too far off base in his concern. Luckily, not too many major fleet actions occur near heavily populated planets. Amarr, Jita, Arnon, Tama, Kamela, Intaki, OMS and Hek seem to be the systems in the most danger of large pieces of debris making planetfall somewhere. I don't mention Luminaire because you can't fly a shuttle near that Titan without a dozen salvagers popping up. Caldari is probably the cleanest planet in the galaxy.
Of course, there are a great many other toxic and radioactive things in our ships and ammo to worrry about besides DU. Ever try to mine a firey vein of Kernite? As long as we make sure our flight and ground crews use common sense and some basic safety precautions, civilized space should be fine.
0.0 space is another story. Pirates usually don't care enough about the worlds they exploit.
I think we should look for a way to find an end to "why" we mke war as opposed to "how."
KUOMI LOGISTICS: The bright future, today!Ö |
Alica Wildfire
Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency EVE-UNION
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Posted - 2010.01.22 10:59:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 22/01/2010 11:04:12 Alica shows up in a white laboratory smock.
The Depleted Uranium or DU ammunition is one of my favorite ammunitions and one of the best the Matari artillery cannons can fire. It's warhead will break up when penetrating the armor and burn inside the ship. It is dangerous if you get fired with it!
She nods that her red hair is flying around.
But it's not so dangerous if you handle it correclty. Like this one:
She points on a 125mm Depleted Uranium shell on the small labratory table in front of her. Accidently she tips it with her finger instead of just pointing, the thing tumbles and falls on the floor, hitting it with some metallic noise.
Oops. Okay. So. After I get this on the table again, we will see how it is build inside! And while I saw it open to show you the internals I give over to Beamy, a member of my Reactor Girlz stabber crew who will show you why critical mass is not that critical at all.
Alica begins to saw the thing open with a simple metal saw, the cam switches over to Beamy, a young girl with a headscarf and an unhealthy aura, that she has warpped around her head piratelike, which is a fashion that was introduced by the Reactor Girlz on Alica's ship recently.
See? This is a hemisphere of a halve critical mass! As you can see, this is enriched uranium isotope 233, which is perfectly capable to chain react and this makes it much more dangerous and funny than that toothless stuff we shoot with our cannons, which is indeed just waste disposal into the belly of our enemies.
Here you see perfect 8.25 kilogram of that isotope, which is alone completly harmless, if you do not lick it.
She licks it.
Like that. Because it's of cause heavy metal and will poison your organism and has long term effects, but we all know that I'll not live that long.
She grins.[
So don't lick at Uranium yourself and don't do at home what I show you here.
She picks up a second halve from the floor.
This is a second halve of the critical mass of isotope 233 uranium. Which is also perfectly safe. Just if you put those two parts together like this...
She carefully puts one halve on the other and puts a screwdriver between them...
Everything is cool, guys as long as the screwdriver is between it and if I lower the upper halve like this, it's getting warmer and you can see how the chain reaction begins... Oops.
The screwdriver slips off her fingers and falls on the floor. The upper halve falls on the lower and a flash of light glares the camera. With huge noise and static the picture comes back after some seconds. Beamy is standing there and scratching her head.
Damn. If this happens it's supposed to go critical! Why I'm not dead?! ****.
She kicks a can of quafe over the floor.
The vaporizing uranium must have shot the other halve away because it's not here anymore, where is it? Damn. Why didn't it go boom? **** everything I do is going wrong. I can't do...
Medical and nuclear emergency personal is storming in securty suits into the room and dragging the girl away from the hot glowing lower halve of the uranium core. The camera switches again to Alica, who is a bit dazzled and staring at what she had just witnessed.
****. That could have blown up my stabber. That was stupid and uranium is terrible expensive at the moment, and now it's just nuclear waste. That **** costs me lot of money. Yeah.
She smiles.
As you can see Depleated Uranium is perfectly safe and next time I show you why I love our Fusion ammo and why the Nuclear ammo is quite more interesting. Here. Now you can take a look into the Depleated Uranium ammo.
Do not lick it, of cause. It's not good for your health and don't get shot by it, that is even worse.
She smiles and the camera goes static.
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Esna Pitoojee
Amarr TalCorp Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.01.22 13:11:00 -
[13]
I'd think you'd be far more worried about munitions such as nuclear shells or Uraniumh hybrid charges - or even antimatter charges - missing their targets and following a trajectory that takes them into a planet. DU is really the least of your worries. |
Stitcher
Caldari ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.22 14:04:00 -
[14]
There's something very wrong with you, pilot Wildfire. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Aphoxema G
Tribal Warzone Front
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Posted - 2010.01.22 16:05:00 -
[15]
Few battles take place in actual orbit of a planet; maneuvering for combat against the gravity of a planet and planning projectile and missile trajectories is simply a feat. Combat is especially avoided inside of an atmosphere because navigation becomes even more difficult the gas attenuates LASER beams and places significant resistance on projectiles.
Dustballs have far more to worry about carcasses of our defeated warships falling into the gravity well of a planet than small masses which are far more likely to be bounced off of a dense, life-sustaining atmosphere.
But you know all this already! This is all elementary, trivial information every pod-pilot is required to know. Go back to school, you're a threat to the good name... ahem... of capsuleers everywhere. ------------------------------- The fox chases for her meal, but the rabbit runs for her life. |
Aphoxema G
Tribal Warzone Front
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Posted - 2010.01.22 16:13:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Aphoxema G on 22/01/2010 16:13:46
Originally by: Esna Pitoojee I'd think you'd be far more worried about munitions such as nuclear shells or Uraniumh hybrid charges - or even antimatter charges - missing their targets and following a trajectory that takes them into a planet. DU is really the least of your worries.
Not only that but LASERs are instantly ionizing and can have dramatic effects on climate and weather of planets in sufficient dosage. Not only that, but assuming a beam can reach the surface of a planet with enough sustained energy, the explosive force of the irradiation can do anything from wipe out a city to upset high-pressure pockets of magma and cause volcanic eruptions capable of releasing materials into the atmosphere that could quite easily snuff all life on the planet. ------------------------------- The fox chases for her meal, but the rabbit runs for her life. |
Doc Extropy
Gallente Cruentus Invicta The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.22 19:26:00 -
[17]
DU can't go critical. You need fissile 233U or 235U for that, enriched, NOT depleted.
Thread = fail. Fail of the epic kind.
AFAIR we had to learn about nuclear reactions @ academy? ---
Skill queue now! Nerf skillpoint loss and half done skills! WE ARE PAYING CUSTOMERS AND DESERVE MAXIMUM COMFORT! |
Bomberlocks
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.01.22 23:08:00 -
[18]
Uhm DU near planets? Arguments about "real" physics in "our" EVE universe? OK. lol. But wait, what about antimatter ammo? antimatter-matter annihilation produces copious amounts of hard radiation, otherwise known as gamma rays, which are both really radioactive and need very thick shielding to stop. And while we're on about it, what about Plutonium ammo? That really is radioactive and the dust really is quite deadly, even in small quantities. Tsk tsk tsk. Think about the children.
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Sinti Vailatti
Kuomi Logistics
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Posted - 2010.01.23 04:37:00 -
[19]
According to my calculations, in order to get a laser big enough and powerful enough you'd need to have a ship or starbase the size of a small moon in order to power such a weapon and still make the ship be able to move between star systems.
Sounds like a kid's story to me.
And hey Bomber, what universe do you live in? We who live beyond the gate know full werll that ye cannae change the laws of physics. Even among the hokey "science fiction" adventure stories I read growin up you found hard science in the best of them.
Antimatter is bad, yes. But with modern controls, easier to maintain control of. You're right that all those nuclear fission weapons are sloppy bad. Fusion weapons on the other hand...
Did any of you read what I'd written about mass drivers? All it takes is an asteroid and a kook with a tractor beam and a ballistics program. I could bomb a planet with rocks fom a moon if I had a big enough catapult.
Physics! Science! You wouldn't be here without them!
And Alicia...dear...we need to talk...
KUOMI LOGISTICS: The bright future, today!Ö |
Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.23 12:51:00 -
[20]
Typical scaremongering with little basis of fact, nothing more.
In all honesty, if I'm shooting at people, the last thing I'm worrying about is anyone's long term health.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
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Nauplius
Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2010.01.23 15:26:00 -
[21]
As opposed to the weapons platforms of the other races, which litter the universe with unexploded or radioactive ordinance, causing navigation hazards for untold generations even if they do not careen into the nearest station or planet filled with innocent bystanders, Holy Amarrian Lasers affect only the targeted heretic or sinner; a "miss" does little more than radiate a bit of heat and electromagnetic waves into the vastness of space.
Fortunately, the Reclaiming of the cluster shall result in cessation of the manufacture of barbaric, hazardous weapons platforms like missiles, rails, and artillery in favor of clean, pure Amarrian lasers.
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency EVE-UNION
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Posted - 2010.01.23 17:14:00 -
[22]
It would be interesting to take a look at the minerals those lasers are made of. I am quite sure the Amarrian lasers and the Minmatar superior autocannons are made of the same basic material.
And the debris the Amarrian fleet leave in fleet that result from losses by that inferior weapons that only use the energy and not the matter of a projectil like the Minmatar indeed pollute space in great terms. In such way that it is not for long and we can walk from Pator to Amarr prime on the wrecks of Abaddons.
Energy and matter, both are part of the world. And while the Amarrian religion tries to talk of spirit, spirit, spirit and god and deny the importance of body, while the whip their slaves to death and pray for their next life while doing this, the Minmatar take the world as it is: matter and energy. And we use both of them.
And this is the reason why we will prevail and Amarr will be forgotten in a few generations when we're done with them.
Did I mention, by the way, that Beamy is sick? But who is interested can follow this issue on my log, so I don't go in details here. It's quite serious. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.24 03:57:00 -
[23]
I wholeheartedly support this plan. Only when all the ice fields melt will people learn to respect nature!
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JordanParey
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.01.25 01:45:00 -
[24]
I am willing to bet that handling Depleted Uranium munitions is much less risky than handling its more radioactive counterparts, Nuclear and Fusion-type ammo.
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dibblebill
Beyond Our Sins
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Posted - 2010.01.25 13:27:00 -
[25]
I think we should ban it! And projectile ammo! It out-ranges my blasters! OUTRAGEOUS!
Oh. And radioactive. Yeah. That, too. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Rational self interest. |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.01.25 16:54:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 25/01/2010 16:54:32 It occurs to me that this isn't the first time I've seen a call for a ban on Minmatar weapons technologies based upon entirely falsified evidence under the guise of a humanitarian effort - there was a woman a few years ago from Hedion University who tried to pull a fast one using a very similar argument to this one. She became very defensive, but later admitted that she had been hired specifically to discredit the Minmatar Republic in front of CONCORD. I also find the immediate use of tactical slander (that I was a shill for a DU producer) remarkably suspicious.
So that leaves us with only one question.
Who are you working for, Mr. Wolfhammer? -----
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Daniel L'Siata
Gallente DaneTek
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Posted - 2010.02.22 12:10:00 -
[27]
I would be slightly more worried about errant railgun slugs in the vicinity of planets, assuming one survived re-entry, which is plausible given the atmosphere and common slug cnstruction materials, the impact would be quite catastrophic if the round was of a higher caliber, and even a low caliber slug would cause subtantial damage planetside. For example, given the approximate speed at which the slugs should be travelling, a 425mm tungsten slug would likely impact with the force of a small nuclear device.
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Alexa Indalta
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Posted - 2010.02.22 15:41:00 -
[28]
you are aware right, that DPU reacts at plasmatic temperatures, the heat of reentry causes the particles to shed their electrons and form plasma, this plasma, if it is not completely burned away into elementary particles, will re-condense into Thorium-234. besides, as people have repeatedly said before, planets above battlefields will have much more to worry about then radioactive dust.
For instance, if a battleship was to break up within the gravity well of a habitable planet, the probability of complete destruction of the vessel in the upper atmosphere is only 19%. The rest of the time, the vessel's remains will rain down onto the surface. Potentially still hot anti-matter, fusion, or fission reactors, unstable graviton generators, highly reactive tritanium, and the corrosive tritanium oxides resulting from its oxidation. Cancer causing long chain molecules from nanowire and hydrofullerene computer systems, malfunctioning nanite soups, highly charged capacitor coils, all this falling from the sky over hundreds of square miles at terminal velocity. Every large scale battle around a planet has the potential to become an ecological disaster on an unheard of scale.
So why worry about a bit of radioactive dust?
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