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[PVBOS] Where We Stand

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Seriphyn Inhonores Gallente Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:12:00 - [31] In short, space lesbianism trumps any form of political or moral belief. Sex before sense. I was the epitome of that, but I was not the only one.
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:15:00 - [32] Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores In short, space lesbianism trumps any form of political or moral belief. Sex before sense. I was the epitome of that, but I was not the only one. You better acquire intellectual property over that slogan right away. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustriosu Sovereign Sani Sabik Where love exists peace is victory and beauty is exulted. Where love does not then peace cannot exist, and vendetta is the only truth.
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.24 15:36:00 - [33] Edited by: dibblebill on 24/01/2010 15:38:06 Originally by: Revan Neferis Second tip: Neferi's house has been the first one to have abolished slavery and sold slave farmers a while ago. Takes you a little bit browsing to find out that your arguments are, well, ridiculous/ We do have one thing in common, and that is a distaste for ignorance. So in order to "enlighten me", please, point out to me where this browsing may take place, as I've seen none of it, only an elitist wishing to belittle those of other races to date. I'll retract my statements when proven wrong. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Apparently I'm small, weak, scared, and irrelevant. YAY!
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2010.01.24 16:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Revan Neferis Second tip: Neferi's house has been the first one to have abolished slavery and sold slave farmers a while ago. Takes you a little bit browsing to find out that your arguments are, well, ridiculous Originally by: dibblebill I'll retract my statements when proven wrong. Revan Neferis on IGS 07/01/2010 13:46:02 Originally by: Revan Neferis I have declared elsewhere that on top of freeing One hundred thousand slaves this week, every slave that comes to House Neferi's hands shall be released henceforth. Your argument based on ignorance that My House is a slaver house is a lie. You may start your retraction. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik Where love exists peace is victory and beauty is exulted. Where love does not then peace cannot exist, and vendetta is the only truth.
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.24 16:42:00 - [35] Then I retract my statment about your house's current state of affairs regarding slavery, and I offer an apology on that regard. Though I find your reasons more than amusing, the fact is, they were freed. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Apparently I'm small, weak, scared, and irrelevant. YAY!
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2010.01.24 16:46:00 - [36] Originally by: dibblebill Then I retract my statment about your house's current state of affairs regarding slavery, and I offer an apology on that regard. Though I find your reasons more than amusing, the fact is, they were freed. Very well. And yes my reasons are always amusing. Enjoy your grill. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik Where love exists peace is victory and beauty is exulted. Where love does not then peace cannot exist, and vendetta is the only truth.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.24 16:50:00 - [37] Originally by: dibblebill I shall not hide who I am talking about, I am referring to Star Fraction and Jade Constantine. I have a lot of respect for Cosmo, but I can no longer honestly say the same of the CEO of Jericho Fraction. And if the Star Fraction allows such inconsistencies on a daily basis, and even justifies them, then I cannot stand by them as an ally and honestly call myself, or my corporation, a champion of the free man. As such, we are formally breaking ties as allies and setting our diplomatic standing to neutral. Is there another relationship of mine you'd like to substitute in to support your intitial post on this thread now Dibblebill or will you walk away and try to pretend nothing has happened? True Knowledge
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.24 17:03:00 - [38] Neither, though it did take four years for you to convince her that slavery was wrong. I admitted I was wrong, and I retract that portion of our statement, but I will point out that we have a fundamental philosophical difference between where PVBOS stands, and where you, and Star Fraction, apparently stand, judging from your own words. That being said, I stand by our official statement that freedom is a birthright, not a privilege. And so our two ideals cannot coincide side-by-side, as your statements seem to imply that this freedom that is our birthright should be earned and can be earned only by blood. Again, if I've misread that, please correct me. Furthermore, as we are both NRDS organizations, and due to our ROE, conflict should be a non-issue. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Apparently I'm small, weak, scared, and irrelevant. YAY!
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2010.01.24 17:11:00 - [39] Edited by: Revan Neferis on 24/01/2010 17:12:27 Originally by: Jade Constantine Is there another relationship of mine you'd like to substitute in to support your intitial post on this thread now Dibblebill or will you walk away and try to pretend nothing has happened? Another?! Originally by: dibblebill Neither, though it did take four years for you to convince her that slavery was wrong. If there is one thing people in this cluster knows Mr, is that no one is able to convince me of Anything that it's not my own interest. You should take this lesson to the heart. Where love exists peace is victory and beauty is exulted. Where love does not then peace cannot exist, and vendetta is the only truth.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.24 17:54:00 - [40] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/01/2010 17:54:53 Originally by: dibblebill ... I will point out that we have a fundamental philosophical difference between where PVBOS stands, and where you, and Star Fraction, apparently stand. Then it surmises to this. Because you believe that all are born deserving of freedom regardless of their strength and courage as a "birthright" whereas we believe freedom must be fought for and preserved with strength of arms to ensure it cannot ever be removed - you believe our ideologies are incompatible and you have unilaterally set us neutral. The cosmopolite has recipricated and you are neutral also. As we are an NRDS entity and absolutely uninterested in dictating your standings to 3rd parties that is as far as the matter goes. You would do well not to attempt to "imply" or "read" anything into my words that has not been plainly spoken. You are correct to say there is ideological distance though and I personally believe that the kind of freedoms you seek "given/provided/handouts" are similar to the kind of "freedoms from fear and responsibility" that are often talked about by the Slavers of Providence and your thinking is in many ways closer to theirs than any Matari rebel. This is an old debate. The Star Fraction wants every free individual to own a gun, a starship, the means for self defense so they can claim a place at the table of negotiation and respect by their own power and prestige. We simply don't believe it is possible for a culture of human beings to exist where strong preseve the freedoms of the "weak" without becoming corrupted by the power imbalance. You see this daily in Providence where bounty hunters and miners believe they are "free" because the CVA tell them the standings they must use and religion they must practise and tell them the only price of their "freedom" is to follow the Imperialist rule, shoot who they are told to shoot and leave whatever belt is desired by their masters. This is a kind of "freedom" - the freedom from responsibiliy and sometimes, the "freedom" to make money. But is is not freedom as I understand it. We believe that you become free when nobody can tell you where you can, what you can do, who you can love, who can trade with, where and when and what you can dream of your own future. That is freedom, and it is a freedom that cannot be given it can only be taken. We can inspire, we can teach, we can goad, we can enflame and demonstrate it even. But we cannot give it to you or any one else. The final stage much always come from an individual with design for sovereign authority over their own life and destiny. In my time in the star cluster I have been blessed to see thousands take this choice and seize their own freedoms even as billions in rebellion to the Amarrian Empire and other tyrants have done so on the planets below. So yes. We disagree on ideology and you have the freedom to renounce SF as allies. And you know because we are of our word you will face no danger whatsoever from the Free Captains of the Star Fraction because we are fighting the true enemies of freedom in this star cluster - those who would teach that false-freedom is better than nothing and that submission to a state is safe and profitable though it cost every atom of individuality in the heart and soul. True Knowledge

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Revan Neferis Another?! smiles at the tone of voice as ridiculous a question as ever was raised my love. True Knowledge
Caellach Marellus Gallente Preta Light Industries Naraka.	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Revan Neferis Originally by: Bacchanalian Originally by: von Khan Originally by: Revan Neferis Now I cant' stop yawning... Another commoner wanting to jump into our bed after 4 years... Yes you are all 4 years late. Minimum. You people need to get creative at some point. You are so selfish! You're going to have that body the rest of your life and I just want it for one night. I'll thaw the one we have out and rent it to you for a night for a few hundred million. Even frozen bodies of mine makes IGS posts to others! In this day and age where some corpses are apparently warrent to be worth entire topics and have bidding auctions over them, one shouldn't get too excited about her's mentioned in an off the cuff remark. I'm sure your name has plenty of standing going for it without needing to grasp at such small straws, no? -------------------------------------- All commentary unless explicitly stated remains the personal views of Caellach Marellus and do not necessarily represent that of his Corporation or Alliance.
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:44:00 - [43] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Revan Neferis Another?! smiles at the tone of voice as ridiculous a question as ever was raised my love. winks I know beloved, was teasing you. Love you Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik Originally by: Caellach Marellus small straws, no? You made such a big pyramid quote Mr to miss the entire irony on all the posts. Tsk Tsk. Maybe another time. Where love exists peace is victory and beauty is exulted. Where love does not then peace cannot exist, and vendetta is the only truth.
Caellach Marellus Gallente Preta Light Industries Naraka.	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Revan Neferis You made such a big pyramid quote Mr to miss the entire irony on all the posts. Tsk Tsk. Maybe another time. I found it amusing and thought you'd see the humourous side of my point, apparently not especially when you selectivly quote to take what was a comical thought and make it look like a personal attack. Pity. And I can only blame laziness and a lack of proper formatting for such a pyramid. Though the context of what I said would be less apt had I removed it all. -------------------------------------- All commentary unless explicitly stated remains the personal views of Caellach Marellus and do not necessarily represent that of his Corporation or Alliance.
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2010.01.24 18:53:00 - [45] Originally by: Caellach Marellus And I can only blame laziness and a lack of proper formatting for such a pyramid. Though the context of what I said would be less apt had I removed it all. Ah, I'll blame the pyramid quoting format too in that case. Where love exists peace is victory and beauty is exulted. Where love does not then peace cannot exist, and vendetta is the only truth.
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.25 02:59:00 - [46] Edited by: dibblebill on 25/01/2010 02:58:59 (OOC: EDIT: WRONG THREAD WILL EDIT RIGHT POST IN MOMENTARILY)) ------------[Signature]-------------------- Apparently I'm small, weak, scared, and irrelevant. YAY!
Zverofaust Gallente Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.01.25 12:03:00 - [47] Originally by: dibblebill Originally by: Merdaneth Neither are they born with pants, shirts or shoes. Does the fact that we are born naked make clothing morally wrong? Are we forced to wear them? No. Actually, public nudity is against the law on almost all civilized planets. The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.25 12:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Jade Constantine Then it surmises to this. Because you believe that all are born deserving of freedom regardless of their strength and courage as a "birthright" whereas we believe freedom must be fought for and preserved with strength of arms to ensure it cannot ever be removed - you believe our ideologies are incompatible and you have unilaterally set us neutral. The cosmopolite has recipricated and you are neutral also. As we are an NRDS entity and absolutely uninterested in dictating your standings to 3rd parties that is as far as the matter goes. I have a question. If we attained (this is entirely theoretical) blue standing with CVA, would we then be marked red? Quote: You would do well not to attempt to "imply" or "read" anything into my words that has not been plainly spoken. You are correct to say there is ideological distance though and I personally believe that the kind of freedoms you seek "given/provided/handouts" are similar to the kind of "freedoms from fear and responsibility" that are often talked about by the Slavers of Providence and your thinking is in many ways closer to theirs than any Matari rebel. By our freedoms, one is responsible for their own actions, and held as such. Though this is, unfortunately, not the reality, a person held at gunpoint has every right and should tell his captor, "You have no right to control me and I refuse you the ability to do so." The reality is, most people fear for their lives too much to try and assert this. By granting the gunman the ability to do so, however wrong the gunman is in his actions (very wrong), Quote: This is an old debate. The Star Fraction wants every free individual to own a gun, a starship, the means for self defense so they can claim a place at the table of negotiation and respect by their own power and prestige. We simply don't believe it is possible for a culture of human beings to exist where strong preseve the freedoms of the "weak" without becoming corrupted by the power imbalance. In the interest of dispelling ignorance, have you not been, in the past, stated that freedom is the power to do as you please? If I am wrong, please correct me. I would also like to point out this, and ask if it is official Star Fraction ideology: Originally by: Tetseptus Slavery, categorically and without exception, is abhorrent and wrong. That is not simply opinion. Any that attest otherwise are slaves themselves to a philosophy that is inherently flawed. And could I get an explanation, as unless I missed it, I saw none in the original context? Quote: You see this daily in Providence where bounty hunters and miners believe they are "free" because the CVA tell them the standings they must use and religion they must practise and tell them the only price of their "freedom" is to follow the Imperialist rule, shoot who they are told to shoot and leave whatever belt is desired by their masters. This is a kind of "freedom" - the freedom from responsibiliy and sometimes, the "freedom" to make money. But is is not freedom as I understand it. If CVA has sovereignty in that region, then all others are guests. I see what you are trying to say, but what I am seeing is this: Bob owns plot of land. Fred moves onto this plot in order to farm it. Bob has no right, according to this, to tell Fred not to use his resources. While we do not like CVA on different reasons, they are certainly within their rights to restrict their guests in their regions, and denying them the freedom of governing their property (not human property as that is immoral). This is different from the Taggart Transdimensional incident. As I understand it, they attempted to blockade off Venal in order to protect their miners. They have every right of self defense, but do not actually own that region. The Guristas do. As such, they have no standing on which to blockade off the entire region as others have as much a right to use it as they do. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Rational self interest.
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.25 12:24:00 - [49] Edited by: dibblebill on 25/01/2010 13:22:39 Edited by: dibblebill on 25/01/2010 12:25:06 Certainly, Fred can negotiate for the ability to farm Bob's land, but if Bob earned it himself, and payed for it, it is his property. Where is his right to his belongings there? Where is his freedom to use his own property as he sees fit? EDIT: Please note that this does not justify their owning of slaves in their territory, or of the expansion of their territory by force. Quote: We believe that you become free when nobody can tell you where you can go, what you can do, who you can love, who can trade with, where and when and what you can dream of your own future. That is freedom, and it is a freedom that cannot be given it can only be taken. We can inspire, we can teach, we can goad, we can enflame and demonstrate it even. But we cannot give it to you or any one else. The final stage much always come from an individual desire for sovereign authority over their own life and destiny and the power to defend that rational choice with force of arms and confidence whenever and wherever it is threatened. This last part, I agree wholeheartedly with. The individual must ultimately make the choice to use his or her freedom, and stand up for it. Ideally, the first part would also be true, unless, say, an individual committed grave crimes against the owner of an area. An empire where the only thing forbidding you from certain regions is your past crimes would be ideal. Unfortunately, that system only seems to exist for capsuleers at this point. Quote: In my time in the star cluster I have been blessed to see thousands take this choice and seize their own freedoms even as billions rise in rebellion against the Amarrian Empire and other tyrants on the planets below. As they are fully in their right to do so. And I am so thankful many have realized that they have the right, and the power, to stand up for their freedom and their own right to their own lives. Quote: So yes. We disagree on ideology and you have the freedom to renounce SF as allies. And you know because we are of our word you will face no danger whatsoever from the Free Captains of the Star Fraction because we are fighting the true enemies of freedom in this star cluster - those who would teach that false-freedom is better than nothing and that submission to a state is safe and profitable though it costs every atom of individuality in the heart and soul and dooms humanity to the status quo of heirarchy and imperialist delusion. You have no danger from us, either. But I do have a question- if Star Fraction "wins", and government and land ownership are suspended, what is to stop those powers that be, such as IT Alliance, Goonswarm, and other zero-zero alliances, from imposing their freedom to do as they please on others, with no CONCORD to govern the limits of their reach? Where will the power balance fall, then? Originally by: Zverofaust Originally by: dibblebill Originally by: Merdaneth Neither are they born with pants, shirts or shoes. Does the fact that we are born naked make clothing morally wrong? Are we forced to wear them? No. Actually, public nudity is against the law on almost all civilized planets. This is an excellent point. But there are places where it is not, and if they can afford it, individuals are free move to those places instead. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Rational self interest.
Zverofaust Gallente Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.01.25 12:53:00 - [50] Quote: This is an excellent point. But there are places where it is not, and if they can afford it, individuals are free move to those places instead. Emphasis on the underlined. This is little more than freedom for the rich, which itself is little more than slavery. The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara

dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.25 13:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Zverofaust Emphasis on the underlined. This is little more than freedom for the rich, which itself is little more than slavery. There is a world of difference. A slave would not even have the opportunity to do so. A free individual has opportunities through jobs, events (they can enter in lotteries if they so choose), and other personal means to gain money or improve their economic position. Space travel to and housing on are not expensive on many worlds and stations these days. What would you propose instead, then, instead of a free and open economic system? ------------[Signature]-------------------- Rational self interest.
Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.25 14:06:00 - [52] Edited by: Stratio on 25/01/2010 14:07:37 Originally by: dibblebill We don't seek the destruction of the Amarr Empire, nor its culture, but the end of slavery. May your guns always find their targets in your efforts to end slavery! _____________________ For Tribe and Honour!
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.25 15:35:00 - [53] Originally by: dibblebill If CVA has sovereignty in that region, then all others are guests. I see what you are trying to say, but what I am seeing is this: Bob owns plot of land. Fred moves onto this plot in order to farm it. Bob has no right, according to this, to tell Fred not to use his resources. While we do not like CVA on different reasons, they are certainly within their rights to restrict their guests in their regions, and denying them the freedom of governing their property (not human property as that is immoral) The application of the term property is an interesting question, especially when it concerns Star Fraction. If use the 'Fred vs. Bob' style example below frequently to explain the Star Fraction way of thinking to others: ---- Merdaneth is working hard on his land, tending to his crops. They are looking mighty fine so close to harvest time and he takes one of the riping apples from a tree and bites down, savoring the taste. The Cosmopolite walks into Merdaneth's orchard. "What are you doing on my land?" Merdaneth asks "Land belongs to no one, this is not your land!" The Cosmopolite states. "Well, you are free to walk around and take an apple if you want mister" Merdaneth responds. "Just don't make any trouble, ok?" "Nobody tells me what I can and cannot do!" The Cosmopolite intones. "I am a free man, and will not be oppressed by your enclosurist rules!" "Calm down mister." Merdaneth retorts. "Just keep out of the house and don't break anything" The Cosmopolite begins plucking apples, eats one and puts the rest into his knapsack and moves towards the house. Merdaneth follows him from a distance, keeping a wary eye on the strange character. Merdaneth's dog barks at the approaching stranger. "Get out of my way you inferior form of life!" The Cosmopolite yells. Then he draws a flechette gun and opens up, reducing the dog to bloody pulp. "What are you doing?!" Merdaneth yells, running towards the dead dog. "He was restricting my freedom to go anywhere I want, so I terminated him." the Cosmopolite responds. The Cosmopolite enters the house and sees Merdaneth's wife. "I like this woman, I'll take her for myself" The Cosmopolite says matter-of-factly. "No!" Merdaneth screams as he comes running into the house. The Cosmopolite guns him down. "Your own fault for not being able to defend yourself properly, you should not rely on others like your government to defend what's yours." he says as he kicks the body then grabs Merdaneth's wife and takes off towards the lair of his Fraction buddies. Later they return and take all they can carry from the orchards and the fields harvest, burning the rest. Merdaneth's son watches with teary eyes. "You have destroyed everything I cared about. I don't even have enough food here to survive the winter, I'll die here alone." He says with broken voice. "Tough break kid." The Cosmopolite says to him. "You should really be able to fend for yourself, you are just a herd following weakling otherwise" "You have food, can you not at least give me some of it" the kid says "Sorry, I have the food and we don't share with non-Fractioneers. You have to become a member first, fortunately for you, we don't hold your father against you. However, if you become a member, you have to obey our rules, ok?" "But, I thought you hated rules? I thought you found them... 'enclosurist'" the kid says The Cosmopolite laughs. "Foolish kid, one cannot enforce rules on territory, everyone know's that a crime against humanity. However, enforcing the same rules for an organization is perfectly fine. You loyalists are all the same, ******ed and backward." The Cosmopolite laughs again and he and his cronies leave for another farm. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.25 15:52:00 - [54] Originally by: dibblebill Originally by: Zverofaust Emphasis on the underlined. This is little more than freedom for the rich, which itself is little more than slavery. There is a world of difference. A slave would not even have the opportunity to do so. A free individual has opportunities through jobs, events (they can enter in lotteries if they so choose), and other personal means to gain money or improve their economic position. Space travel to and housing on are not expensive on many worlds and stations these days. What would you propose instead, then, instead of a free and open economic system? You think the unemployed and poor choose to stay that way? That is what you are implying. Let's be very clear: opportunities are limited and very much restricted by your current position. There is a world of difference between those who enter the world in an influential and rich family on a core world, and those who are born to a unschooled and poorly socially gifted citizen in a backwater world. Similarly, plenty of slaves manage to be awarded with freedom through hard and diligent work, and amass billions of isk themselves. To insist on a binary distinction between slaves as no-opportunity people and non-slaves as all-opportunity people is folly. Just you walk into one of the poorer neighbourhoods and speak with people that are dying from lack of unaffordable medical attention and tell them they've really had plenty of opportunity to win the lottery so its really their own fault of being in this situation. I'm certain you'll convince many people. People are not created equal and consequently opportunies for people are not equal. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jebizael Hunter Gallente Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.25 17:05:00 - [55] Edited by: Jebizael Hunter on 25/01/2010 17:09:56 Originally by: dibblebill I have a question. If we attained (this is entirely theoretical) blue standing with CVA, would we then be marked red? No. If you then followed CVA's KOS list doctrine and shot us, Yes. See 'Black Lustrum' thread for more details from The Cosmopolite. (Note to self. Check other threads before replying)
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.25 17:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Jebizael Hunter Edited by: Jebizael Hunter on 25/01/2010 17:09:56 No. If you then followed CVA's KOS list doctrine and shot us, Yes. See 'Black Lustrum' thread for more details from The Cosmopolite. (Note to self. Check other threads before replying) Very well stated. I had different understandings from reading past statements than this, thank you for clearing it up. Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: dibblebill If CVA has sovereignty in that region, then all others are guests. I see what you are trying to say, but what I am seeing is this: Bob owns plot of land. Fred moves onto this plot in order to farm it. Bob has no right, according to this, to tell Fred not to use his resources. While we do not like CVA on different reasons, they are certainly within their rights to restrict their guests in their regions, and denying them the freedom of governing their property (not human property as that is immoral) The application of the term property is an interesting question, especially when it concerns Star Fraction. If use the 'Fred vs. Bob' style example below frequently to explain the Star Fraction way of thinking to others In that context, we would say that The Cosmopolite was immoral and acting unjustly. He was infringing on your right to your own freedom. Had you introduced human property, slaves, into the picture, and he continued after freeing them to take the actions detailed, he would still have been in the wrong, according to my argument. Originally by: Merdaneth You think the unemployed and poor choose to stay that way? That is what you are implying. Ah, you see now, Jade, the danger of implying things? What I implied, and what was interpreted, are two different things. Thank you for your question, and pointing this out, Merdaneth. This part requires my personal views, not my corporation's, as there are some in this corporation more prone to acts of altruism. Quote: Let's be very clear: opportunities are limited and very much restricted by your current position. There is a world of difference between those who enter the world in an influential and rich family on a core world, and those who are born to a unschooled and poorly socially gifted citizen in a backwater world. It is difficult, I never said it was easy, but possible. In some cases, near impossible. Take, for example, the now deceased CEO of Ishukone. Where did he come from? He had no history up until the point he was made CEO. I did so adore that man, he was my idol growing up. At any rate, I'm not entirely sure where his history came from, them an literally appeared out of thin air. Look at the rumors surrounding his origins- some even claim he was a pirate, and possibly less before that. If these are true, he would be the very idol of what else I am saying here. Again, what follows is merely my personal view of things. Quote: Similarly, plenty of slaves manage to be awarded with freedom through hard and diligent work, and amass billions of isk themselves. To insist on a binary distinction between slaves as no-opportunity people and non-slaves as all-opportunity people is folly. Slavery by definition is forced labor, with no option of a way out. I have spoken to some "holders", such as Esna, and they define what they have as slavery. The difference is, his "slaves" have the option of leaving and striking out on their own at any time they choose, to make their fortune or failure among the stars. Those that remain behidn are paid in housing, food, water, and education. I'm nearing my posting size limit, I'll continue shortly. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Rational self interest.
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.25 17:54:00 - [57] To continue, Tibus Heth, as much as I despise the man, also rose to power and wealth from a near nobody. It is a possible feat, though it can be very difficult. I come from a lower middle class family in Perimeter. Certainly a core world, I had many opportunities as a child that others in lower classes did not have, but it was by no means easy to afford the academy. I do not wish to speak of my family beyond this. Now, I am a capsuleer with a near bottomless resouce cache of ISK. Quote: Just you walk into one of the poorer neighbourhoods and speak with people that are dying from lack of unaffordable medical attention and tell them they've really had plenty of opportunity to win the lottery so its really their own fault of being in this situation. I'm certain you'll convince many people. Sisters of Eden. Just to name an example. Many charitable organizations will gladly donate their time and money to helping others. It is my personal view that individuals have a right to many things. This does not mean they are entitled to them. I personally do not believe in charity causes, though some of my corpmates do. I have no policy, rule, or statement against donating time and money of your own free will. Its perfectly within your rights to do so. I have been called heartless and compassionless many times, but I am going somewhere with this. I take frequent trips planetside. I go to these poor neighborhoods. Call me an opportunist if you will, but it is where I find my most loyal and highly skilled crews, and station-side employees. Unlike the wealthy louts that know they don't need a crew position, these people are willing to work and learn new trades. If they do not perform to the expected capacities, they are released from employment. I also pay them based on performance. The better they do their work, the better their pay will be. This drives them to improve themselves, and by doing so, they also improve their economic standing. None of it is altruistic, I merely hope to drive my employees to be the best employees I can, and to improve their productivity as such. One has even gone so far as to finally be able to quit my crew and become a capsuleer herself, though she has managed to make quite the fool of herself on the Summit as of late. Unfortunately, not as many corporations and capsuleers think as I do. Most think along the "bottom line" as minimizing cost, instead of maximizing productivity. Quote: People are not created equal and consequently opportunies for people are not equal. This is very true. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Rational self interest.
Molien Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.25 18:35:00 - [58] Originally by: dibblebill Slavery by definition is forced labor, with no option of a way out. I have spoken to some "holders", such as Esna, and they define what they have as slavery. The difference is, his "slaves" have the option of leaving and striking out on their own at any time they choose, to make their fortune or failure among the stars. Those that remain behidn are paid in housing, food, water, and education. If this is your definition of "slavery" then you have no fight with the Empire. Every man woman or child in service legally to an owner or Holder within the Empire does have the opportunity and hope to be free. It is, in fact, what every owner hopes for each of their charges. Contrary to the popular view, the Empire does not condone random, wanton raids and shackling people and dragging them away to be worked until they collapse then worked some more while being gnawed on by slaver hounds and whipped. In other societies the majority of those termed "slave" within the Empire would instead be in prisons. We attempt to reform these individuals and once again lead them into the light. Each owner is bound by many laws and regulations regarding the treatment of slaves, the violation of which can in fact lead to them holding that title. Blood Sansha, and other pirate factions and cults are just as reviled by the Empire and followers of the Lord as by anyone else.
von Khan Amarr	Posted - 2010.01.25 18:50:00 - [59] Hahahahaha... this is hilarious.. People come here to discus who's wrong or right, they overcomplicated explanations and defend them to meassure theit intellect against other, like the value of positions... come on!, you are just measuring who's member is longer... If we are going to regress that back why not do it all the way to why we are here and who created this soup of flavors that we call universe, and if this beautiful pair of women have something right is that doesnt matter whos wrong or right, just who have the power to impose on to others and at the end hi is the right one. And don't get me wrong i do believe in God, but i doubt that he will favor one side over the other because observing his creation, its evident that he favors balance over everything. But the REAL injustice is how this ladies rather use toys than the real deal.. and that my colleges is the truth! Alexander von Khan Philosopher
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2010.01.25 20:16:00 - [60] Originally by: Molien hope to be free. It is, in fact, what every owner hopes for each of their charges. You said it yourself, in your rebuttal. Why would they have to hope to be freed if they were happy and allowed to do as they wanted? Obviously, something's not quite right. The key difference between you and Esna is that he allows them to leave when they want, not when they've "earned it". Since apparently people must "earn" their freedom, from what I am lead to understand, maybe we should all keep people against their will until they can prove they deserve to be released to exercise their freedoms. It makes sense to me. Quote: Contrary to the popular view, the Empire does not condone random, wanton raids and shackling people and dragging them away to be worked until they collapse then worked some more while being gnawed on by slaver hounds and whipped. In other societies the majority of those termed "slave" within the Empire would instead be in prisons. I am aware of the former, though it still happens nonetheless in some locations. As for the last part, see my point about criminals earlier. Quote: We attempt to reform these individuals and once again lead them into the light. Each owner is bound by many laws and regulations regarding the treatment of slaves, the violation of which can in fact lead to them holding that title. Blood Sansha, and other pirate factions and cults are just as reviled by the Empire and followers of the Lord as by anyone else. And we are just as against the slavery employed by the Blood Raiders and Angels as we are against the Empire's slavery. Our corporation has destroyed hundreds, if not thousands, of ships belonging to these people. ------------[Signature]-------------------- Rational self interest.



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