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BloodBird
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2010.01.26 02:31:00 -
[1]
Hello again, denizens of the summit.
I've returned here today to issue a... warning, of sorts.
A few months ago, I left the Federation/State front behind, in order to avoid what I'm about to talk to you about. About a month ago I returned again, foolishly thinking I'd be stronger and able to cope and handle. I was wrong.
I'd like all capsuleers who serve their respective nations in the war, to be mindful of what they are doing, and why. We all fight, and we all kill. In order to maintain our sanity, it will be important to keep a cool head and prevent a sense of apathy or an enjoyment from the killings to develop. Why do you fight, why do you kill?
Do you kill all these people for fun? Because you hate them and they 'deserve' to die? Because you enjoy the death you create in your actions? Or because it's a needed evil, a part of your duty to your families, peoples, and nations?
I have arrived at the stage where the deaths of my enemies and my own nation's navy start to become meaningless. I feel like I'm slipping into a state of apathetic oblivion, where nothing matters and the screams from the dead and dying are numbed away. I'm losing sight of my goal, eventually all that remains will be the enjoyment of the battles themselves.
I will not allow this to happen to myself, as I've seen it happen to others. Emotional deadness, a sadistic enjoyment of the death and agony caused, the capsuleers who suffer from either of these are quite numerous. Regardless of what they did, who they served, they are all currently dangers to everyone around them, even their own family and friends. Like a specific capsuleer I know of would say, they are tDementedv.
We all fight for our own reasons. Our nations, our leaders, our families, our friends, the cause, justice, God, glory, honour. Whatever it is that drives us to keep fighting in this war, let's try to avoid making it about who can kill the most people for our perverse pleasures.
Allisieer
-------------------------------------
If you don't want to get hurt, stop making me ammo. |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 05:02:00 -
[2]
Hrm.
Well, it seems you've been giving this some thought, pilot. It's good to see you, incidentally.
I may have more to say, later, but I'm a little tipsy at the moment-- probably not ideal for making detailed comments on GalNet.
 |
Evet Morrel
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.26 07:13:00 -
[3]
Well said BloodBird, I believe murder of another human in essence places oneself beyond trust, and therefore, beyond human society. However, by this same logic such an act can be transformed and become legitimate self-defense when directed against a murderous tyranny or against diversionary reactionary elements. In point of fact to show any conscience and to hesitate to kill, in such circumstances, is itself unprincipled. I have declared war against imperialists, against the semi-feudal, corporative dystopian oligarchy. For me this is not expressionistic, I am not captivated by the heroic mystique of revolutionary violence. I am disgusted by the notion expressed by diversionary reactionary statements such as tWhat do the victims matter if the gesture is beautiful?v. The rationalist position does not, however, detract from redemptive destruction, it establishes it, putting it on a firm footing - if I didnFt believe in the importance of the insurrectionist act I would have remained a teacher.
Terrorism is not by itself political mobilization but a means to an end: using symbolic violence or the threat of violence, for political purposes, ultimately designed to influence one target by attacking another. To prevail means turning our weaknesses into political strengths by pursuing an offsetting strategy of high-profile violence or indeed fighting a war of attrition depending on the prevailing conditions. These actions are interpreted, packaged, and retransmitted by the media. This tmediatedv message is received and interpreted by the intended audience. Hopefully, the target of influence responds in a way that advances our interests.
While a pirate may embody the final expression of freedom - she is isolated, alienated, and finally defeated - effectively, turning to terror as a substitute for reason. However, IFll not discount pirates out of hand, but say that the break down of the prestige of government through its failure to provide security, may furnish a continuous proof of the possibility that the pursuit of such a contest may raise a revolutionary spirit. However, her contest may just as easily not achieve this. In any case, while the pirate no doubt has her own story, she has become an effect and we in the Star Fraction have it as our purpose to be a cause of change. While this may sound trite, what I mean is that I coexist in a reciprocal operational relationship with my enemy and can determine my best move as a function of the prior and anticipated moves of the enemy, its opponents and its allies.
I've heard it said that if you are tired of Jita then you are tired of life. In many cultures an overabundance of the unnecessary is considered to be hell. I say that the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom. We are a powerful elite. The states that have spawned us are keen that we shouldn't grow to independent or begin to determine the next phase of post human history. Well, like it or not we have begun to do just that. Many in New Eden simply need an encounter of the third kind with some terrestrials. I assure you many in New Eden are oppressed, many suffer.
The only fight in new Eden worth damnation is the fight against the Amarr slave industry. Come die a hero and be reborn in the clone vats of the free!
JOIN the revolution! Jericho is recruiting
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dibblebill
Beyond Our Sins
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Posted - 2010.01.26 13:07:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Evet Morrel
The only fight in new Eden worth damnation is the fight against the Amarr slave industry. Come die a hero and be reborn in the clone vats of the free!
JOIN the revolution! Jericho is recruiting
Your own numbers have said, on this very forum, that it is wrong to make such a statement.
Originally by: Tetseptus
Slavery, categorically and without exception, is abhorrent and wrong. That is not simply opinion. Any that attest otherwise are slaves themselves to a philosophy that is inherently flawed.
Unless he is lying, or not representing Star Fraction in this statement, as he said it in their thread on True Knowledge, then you are acting against Star Fraction philosophy in stating this. If I've misread any of this, please, feel free to correct me. The Cosmopolite himself has said that slavery is up to the individual.
Now, on to an on-topic matter. This problem has been a chronic one- the majority of the militia are there for just that. The glory of the kill and the fight. It is unfortunate that so few can name what it is they place lives on the line for.
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
We even had an internal debate on the issue of Free Captains holding slaves - one which concluded that it was a private matter for the individual.
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ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.26 13:28:00 -
[5]
Originally by: dibblebill
Originally by: Evet Morrel
The only fight in new Eden worth damnation is the fight against the Amarr slave industry. Come die a hero and be reborn in the clone vats of the free!
JOIN the revolution! Jericho is recruiting
Your own numbers have said, on this very forum, that it is wrong to make such a statement.
Originally by: Tetseptus
Slavery, categorically and without exception, is abhorrent and wrong. That is not simply opinion. Any that attest otherwise are slaves themselves to a philosophy that is inherently flawed.
Unless he is lying, or not representing Star Fraction in this statement, as he said it in their thread on True Knowledge, then you are acting against Star Fraction philosophy in stating this. If I've misread any of this, please, feel free to correct me. The Cosmopolite himself has said that slavery is up to the individual.
Now, on to an on-topic matter. This problem has been a chronic one- the majority of the militia are there for just that. The glory of the kill and the fight. It is unfortunate that so few can name what it is they place lives on the line for.
Both free-captains are saying slavery is wrong & the fight against it is a 'just' one. I don't see any contradiction between the two pilots aspirations.
As free captains we are entitled to hold any opinions we wish, however as members of The Star Fraction we adhere to certain standards. One of which is to get involved with the fight for freedom (and by extension, against slavery).
To the OP, I was once a pirate praying on the innocent and defenseless masses traveling around New Eden. Your post reminds me of how I felt towards the end of that period in my life. I had wealth, comfort, entertainment yet I was still slaughtering these people simply because I had the power to do so. I gave it up.
I spent time looking at life in this universe, where its problems stemmed from & why. Was there anything I could do about it? I believe most of the strife we face comes from boarders and old fashioned empires, I have immortality so what greater challenge to put mine to use against than tearing down these antiquated empires and opening up the boarders imposed on our (everyones) space.
I found the Star Fraction. They had already made great progress in the direction I wished to go. The organization is an open meritocracy there is no rank or file, if you have the courage and the will you can lead a fleet from your first day on board. Since then I have never looked back, my life has purpose, the only people we kill are those who have shot us first... I sleep well at night, and each day we move closer to an open galaxy.
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dibblebill
Beyond Our Sins
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Posted - 2010.01.26 13:33:00 -
[6]
Edited by: dibblebill on 26/01/2010 13:33:58
Originally by: ChipMo
Both free-captains are saying slavery is wrong & the fight against it is a 'just' one. I don't see any contradiction between the two pilots aspirations.
As free captains we are entitled to hold any opinions we wish, however as members of The Star Fraction we adhere to certain standards. One of which is to get involved with the fight for freedom (and by extension, against slavery).
To the OP, I was once a pirate praying on the innocent and defenseless masses traveling around New Eden. Your post reminds me of how I felt towards the end of that period in my life. I had wealth, comfort, entertainment yet I was still slaughtering these people simply because I had the power to do so. I gave it up.
I spent time looking at life in this universe, where its problems stemmed from & why. Was there anything I could do about it? I believe most of the strife we face comes from boarders and old fashioned empires, I have immortality so what greater challenge to put mine to use against than tearing down these antiquated empires and opening up the boarders imposed on our (everyones) space.
I found the Star Fraction. They had already made great progress in the direction I wished to go. The organization is an open meritocracy there is no rank or file, if you have the courage and the will you can lead a fleet from your first day on board. Since then I have never looked back, my life has purpose, the only people we kill are those who have shot us first... I sleep well at night, and each day we move closer to an open galaxy.
I did misread that one quote heavily, and that is my own fault and mistake.
I also asked her to address the quote The Cosmopolite made regarding slavery being an individual decision. Has this statement changed since it was made?
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
We even had an internal debate on the issue of Free Captains holding slaves - one which concluded that it was a private matter for the individual.
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ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.26 13:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: dibblebill
I also asked her to address the quote The Cosmopolite made regarding slavery being an individual decision. Has this statement changed since it was made?
I'll not pollute this thread further with off-topic comments.
Holding slaves is still an individuals decision & all ways will be. If you choose to use slaves then you must accept the consequences that go along with that decision, one of which I believe would be to for fit your membership of SF.
Such a person would not be set -10, or held in any particular malice by the organization. However individual free-captains may treat the said person as they wish within our RoE of course.
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dibblebill
Beyond Our Sins
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Posted - 2010.01.26 14:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ChipMo
Holding slaves is still an individuals decision & all ways will be. If you choose to use slaves then you must accept the consequences that go along with that decision, one of which I believe would be to for fit your membership of SF.
Such a person would not be set -10, or held in any particular malice by the organization. However individual free-captains may treat the said person as they wish within our RoE of course.
Then thank you for clarifying.
*SPLUD* |
Evet Morrel
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.26 15:19:00 -
[9]
While I admire your approach you are a reformist and I am a revolutionary, to wit my objectives are wider and involve - if you care to read my public statements in this and other threads - the defeat of nationalism. There is no party line in SF, a position upon which Chip has eloquently elaborated.
In my view BloodBird should join the ranks of SF, we fight not for the sake of the "war eternal', at root a revolting concept, no pun intended. He should join because his soul yearns for meaning and for a conflict that hurts the underlying cause of the malady he identifies. You are a reformer, I would raise a toast to you in our public channel. Please don't misunderstand, we are practical and sometimes we will create temporary allegiances over a single issue, be it slavery or indeed other things - we believe in the process, a dialectical process, and as a result we may all have some pretty, and pretty strange bedfellows.
Jericho fraction is recruiting
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 17:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: ChipMo
Holding slaves is still an individuals decision & all ways will be. If you choose to use slaves then you must accept the consequences that go along with that decision, one of which I believe would be to for fit your membership of SF.
Are there such things as non-individual decisions? Or are we just arguing semantics here?
Who had thought that the consequences of being a slave-mistreating leader of a loyalist heretic cult would lead to a well known anarchist leader and anti-loyalist/anti-slaver falling in love with yourself? Perhaps if all the Amarr loyalists took an SF lover the ideological conflict would cease today?
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 17:07:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 26/01/2010 17:12:56
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 26/01/2010 17:09:59
Bloodbird:
What you are seeing-- the two separate manifestations of capsuleer dementia-- are, it seems to me, really products of the same process: a decline in the pilot's regard and consideration for human life. The ship, rather than the humans it contains, becomes the center of the capsuleer's attention.
What you perceive as sadism seems to stem not so much from any particular desire to cause pain (except, perhaps, to the capsuleer piloting the enemy ship, but our interactions with one another seem broadly unaffected by dementia) as from passion-- a sharply partisan outlook that classifies segments of humanity without feeling any particular empathy for humans in general.
For example, "Amarrian crew" becomes "a ship full of Amarr." The Amarr are the enemy; the ship contains many of them; therefore its destruction is a thing to take pleasure in.
It's this dynamic that I find so worrying when it comes to Demented involvement in these wars. I personally will light up entire complexes of unhardened structures just to watch the flames. What would I become if I actually started caring about the lives those structures contained-- cared enough to consider their deaths to be "progress?"
At that point, I truly do worry for our kind: how difficult is it to move from smiling over the deaths of a military ship full of X faction, whatever it might be, to smiling over the deaths of a civilian transport, a station, a planet?
We may very well stand on the verge of the greatest string of atrocities humankind has yet witnessed. Reschard? Caldari Prime? The Starkmanir? Blips, next to what may follow from a capsuleer in orbit above a planetary atmosphere with a hold full of torpedoes and a cheerful smile.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 17:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: BloodBird
Do you kill all these people for fun? Because you hate them and they 'deserve' to die? Because you enjoy the death you create in your actions? Or because it's a needed evil, a part of your duty to your families, peoples, and nations?
I have arrived at the stage where the deaths of my enemies and my own nation's navy start to become meaningless. I feel like I'm slipping into a state of apathetic oblivion, where nothing matters and the screams from the dead and dying are numbed away. I'm losing sight of my goal, eventually all that remains will be the enjoyment of the battles themselves.
I don't. I try to avoid deaths if at all possible. I frequently spare junior capsuleers and send them home with a sermon rather than with a wake up call from a clone vat operator.
In fact, I often broadcast warnings in local comms to pirate factions to stand down before I return fire. If loss of life can be avoided within reason, I will do so.
As for myself, I favor small ships, interceptors especially, able to be operated by just myself. I have great trouble with the concept of pod pilots 'suiciding' their ships because their insurance term is nearly up, likely causing the deaths of many crewmembers.
If I do destroy a hostile pod, I usually pick up the bodily remains and contract it to the pilot in question for proper rites.
You can destroy a pilot's will to fight by beating him often enough. You cannot convert a pilot by beating him often enough. It is not my goal to beat my enemy, it is my goal to convert him. Beating an enemy is easy, killing an enemy is easy. Keeping an enemy alive and converting him, that is hard.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.26 17:59:00 -
[13]
Edited by: ChipMo on 26/01/2010 17:59:44
Originally by: Merdaneth
Are there such things as non-individual decisions? Or are we just arguing semantics here?
I wasn't arguing with anyone. But to answer your question, yes there are those decisions made under duress or made on behalf of a corporation, or with shared intrests that I do not believe would fall directly under the umbrella of 'individual decision'.
These still only make up a minority of choices one will face in a lifetime though.
Originally by: Merdaneth
Who had thought that the consequences of being a slave-mistreating leader of a loyalist heretic cult would lead to a well known anarchist leader and anti-loyalist/anti-slaver falling in love with yourself? Perhaps if all the Amarr loyalists took an SF lover the ideological conflict would cease today?
*ChipMo laughs..
Oh I don't know Merd, I can barely keep up with the politics of this Galaxy. Can't imagine having the time for an affair across the stars, as romantic as it sounds. *Sigh..
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BloodBird
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2010.01.26 23:23:00 -
[14]
Edited by: BloodBird on 26/01/2010 23:23:44
Originally by: Evet Morrel
...
Your opinions have been noted.
If you were trying to tell me I'd be welcome in SF, then just save your breath.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
...
I knew I could count on you to show up sooner or later to underline my point.
In truth, I don't expect anyone to actually listen to me or heed the warning. I brought it here mostly because I felt I needed to say it, futile though it might be. Regardless, if but one capsuleer realize they slip down the spiral and manage to avoid it, thanks to this broadcast, I'll consider my job done.
The two sides of dementia, so to say, are effectively the point where killing grants a pleasure in itself, regardless of who or what it is, and capsuleers pursue killing as a means to enjoy themselves above any other cause. That, and the state where nothing really does matter anymore and the killing becomes a tool to remove things that are in the way, without setting off any moral realization that, what your doing is inherently wrong.
The way I see it you are nothing less than the poster-child of the second condition - you slew a family member of yours once, and regardless of if it was accidental or deliberate, you felt nothing, as I recall. You fled the scene afterwards, you might not have minded the loss much or at all, but the realization of the consequences was real enough that you wanted to avoid it.
Tomorrow, as you said yourself, perhaps I come across your ship, systematically destroying some space-bound installation, for no other reason than to admire the flames.
About the only difference I see between these two conditions is that the former is more dangerous; if the death of other people bring a demented enjoyment, he or she will seek to kill more as a means to enjoy themselves. The latter is a bit more passive; killing without emotional consequence, but deriving no pleasure from it thus seeing no real need to go on a killing spree for fun.
I sometimes wonder if this steady decline can be halted in a way, or reversed. I've not found any solution to this yet, perhaps there is none. And if not, it is only a question of time before enough capsuleers have lost their sanity and the Empires or CONCORD takes action. We can not have an armada of happy killer gods running around killing for fun, now can we?
Allisieer
-------------------------------------
If you don't want to get hurt, stop making me ammo. |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 23:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: BloodBird
In truth, I don't expect anyone to actually listen to me or heed the warning. I brought it here mostly because I felt I needed to say it, futile though it might be. Regardless, if but one capsuleer realize they slip down the spiral and manage to avoid it, thanks to this broadcast, I'll consider my job done.
Just warning people of the danger of sin is pointless. You need to offer people an alternative. As long as you don't offer an alternative for these people the seduction of bloodlust and violence will win over the words of warning. Each time I grant someone mercy, I plant the seed of mercy as an alternative to destruction in their minds.
If you were a woman, I would suggest you to become a space nun.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.27 00:28:00 -
[16]
Edited by: ChipMo on 27/01/2010 00:29:32
Originally by: BloodBird
Your opinions have been noted.
If you were trying to tell me I'd be welcome in SF, then just save your breath.
Allisieer
Why do you feel you are not worth being welcomed? I gather you do not hold our organization in high regard, fine. But any hand of friendship is a complement to your character no matter who extends it. As I said earlier, SF pulled me out of a similar 'hole' as you describe and has held me aloft ever since. You could do far worse than give it a go.
Edit: Same goes for any other disillusioned militia fighters out there reading this.
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Evet Morrel
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.27 00:29:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Evet Morrel on 27/01/2010 00:30:01
Not all capsuleers serve their respective nations. However, I'm new enough to SF not to know your history with the Alliance, perhaps you know the Intaki Bliss. I wonder really what response you expected to elicit. If you look at the Star Fraction's war of attrition against the CVA you'll see that it implements a strategy sympathetic to the one you sketched out above, in what I suspect was a momentary flash of self-realisation.
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Sophie Starsparrow
Minmatar
Starfish Operating Syndicate
Annwn Matari
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Posted - 2010.01.27 02:19:00 -
[18]
*Sophie listens to the messages, fast forwarding through all the unrelated response, pausing only once or twice.*
Hello Pilot Bloodbird, long time no see. *smiles*
I am, like you, happy enough when another capsuleer even acknowledges that this is a problem we face. As much of a relief it is to see others experiencing the same thing, it is frustrating to watch some of them seek the answer where they have found only the problem.
We have managed to find peace, and balance, in our role as pod pilot killers. We have found it in, of all places, ancient rituals. They make us ask the questions you find yourself asking now. They slow us down, reconnect us, and...it seems to make all the difference in the world. In all the worlds. *smiles again*
Should you like to try it some time, you would be more than welcomed to our sweat lodge. Just contact me for the coordinates. *winks*
If you are not willing or interested in trying it, may you find your peace in other ways. *She bows slightly as the screen goes black*
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BloodBird
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2010.01.27 16:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Evet Morrel
In my view BloodBird should join the ranks of SF, we fight not for the sake of the "war eternal', at root a revolting concept, no pun intended. He should join because his soul yearns for meaning and for a conflict that hurts the underlying cause of the malady he identifies.
None of the Empires desire to make war forever. they desire to win.
Kindly do not assume to know what I, or my soul for that matter, desires. You do not know me more than I know you and you have no idea, no idea whatsoever what I have done, do or desire.
Having said that, for the sake of politeness, I am honestly thankful for the offer. But I must decline.
Originally by: ChipMo
Originally by: BloodBird
Your opinions have been noted.
If you were trying to tell me I'd be welcome in SF, then just save your breath.
Allisieer
Why do you feel you are not worth being welcomed? I gather you do not hold our organization in high regard, fine. But any hand of friendship is a complement to your character no matter who extends it. As I said earlier, SF pulled me out of a similar 'hole' as you describe and has held me aloft ever since. You could do far worse than give it a go.
Edit: Same goes for any other disillusioned militia fighters out there reading this.
The problem is not that I feel I am not 'worth' being welcomed into SF; Your organization is not exactly the pinnacle of achievement far as employment goes, after all. The problem is that to join SF I would have to actually believe in your ideals, and I don't. Further, I would have to renounce the very things I myself believe in and desire. Because I see no reason to renounce my beliefs and accept yours on a whim, I'd rather inform you that making the offer is a waste of time for you, and me.
Also, I am NOT disillusioned; if I believed I'd handle it I'd still have my assets ready along the front, and I would be fighting. All day, every day, if that is what's needed to free my homeworld, not to mention all provist-occupied Federal space.
At this point preparations are nearly complete. When they are I will, regrettably, leave the ranks of STRIX. This entire tread would not exist and my departure would be quiet and un-announced, but I decided it might be worth a try to inform others of the dangers inherent in constant battle, especially in the Factional war. Having done so now, I can only hope that it helps, somehow, and that I myself will not end in a mental state that breaks my oat.
-----------------------
@Sophie Starsparrow;
Thanks for the offer Sophie, I'll keep that in mind, for when I have time and desire ready. Yes it has indeed been a while, I've been busy planet-side, mostly.
Allisieer
-------------------------------------
If you don't want to get hurt, stop making me ammo. |
Evet Morrel
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.27 18:39:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Evet Morrel on 27/01/2010 18:41:39
Shame, I believe it would be quite an experience to know you. However, you are rude BloodBird, not the worst of sins IFll admit. Where is that famed Intaki genius for communication..Worst that this, though, you are disingenuous, to the degree to which you undermine your message. You lash out at those who extend their hand to you. I donFt assume, but I do seem to have made the mistake of taking you at your word, perhaps that is the take away message here: the real warning.
Originally by: BloodBird
I feel like I'm slipping into a state of apathetic oblivion, where nothing matters and the screams from the dead and dying are numbed away. I'm losing sight of my goal, eventually all that remains will be the enjoyment of the battles themselves.
I will however express the hope that you are not beyond the reach of perhaps an old friend, even if some hidden stamp, some old wound, makes my concern suspect.
Originally by: BloodBird
Thanks for the offer Sophie, I'll keep that in mind, for when I have time and desire ready. Yes it has indeed been a while, I've been busy planet-side, mostly.
It appears that misery loves company. Do, by all means plunge into another nationalist struggle, but I warn you BloodBird camaraderie will give you only temporary relief from the sins that disturb your piece of mind.
You asked a number questions, in your initial post, I shanFt expect a view from you. You are clearly in pain, a presumption based on a reasonable reading of you own initial post.
Originally by: BloodBird
Why do you fight, why do you kill?
Do you kill all these people for fun? Because you hate them and they 'deserve' to die? Because you enjoy the death you create in your actions? Or because it's a needed evil, a part of your duty to your families, peoples, and nations?
... and you end with this, laudable, hope
Originally by: BloodBird
Whatever it is that drives us to keep fighting in this war, let's try to avoid making it about who can kill the most people for our perverse pleasures.
Bravo
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.01.27 19:39:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 27/01/2010 19:43:48
Originally by: BloodBird
In truth, I don't expect anyone to actually listen to me or heed the warning.
Ah ... I know this feeling. But you are not correct, except in the near term.
It is very difficult to change people's minds in the moment, especially if you're introducing an unusual and frightening idea. A discussion becomes a sort of contest, and people are reluctant to "lose." The most you can usually expect is to plant seeds of doubt that can later germinate and grow.
Some who dismiss you, now, will remember what you have said when they next see a field of wreckage, and one of the Demented crowing happily in Local.
Quote:
... you slew a family member of yours once, and regardless of if it was accidental or deliberate, you felt nothing, as I recall.
Grandfather is ... probably not a good example. What I felt was not so much "nothing" as an inchoate stew ... no, a soup, a soup of emotion that never produced a coherent lump I could call by name. These days, I'm reluctant even to attribute Grandfather's death to my dementia; I might have done it regardless. I don't know. Certainly I had reason enough for hatred, and for love.
Quote:
About the only difference I see between these two conditions is that the former is more dangerous; if the death of other people bring a demented enjoyment, he or she will seek to kill more as a means to enjoy themselves. The latter is a bit more passive; killing without emotional consequence, but deriving no pleasure from it thus seeing no real need to go on a killing spree for fun.
Yes-- I'm not convinced that the first condition actually exists as a separate phenomenon, pilot. Capsuleer dementia, I've argued in the past, seems to be a matter of thinking less like a human being and more like a ship-- on a ship-like scale, where a battleship is a large kill and a destroyer a small one.
Capsuleers who claim to glory in the slaughter, the destruction of human life, for its own sake broadly strike me as ... loud, in a way that makes me wonder who they are trying to convince. The exception, of course, is those deeply involved in the faction war, but they have different reasons for glorying in death: it's the death of their people's enemies, as they see it.
Pilots, myself included, who stalk prey across the void tend to enjoy the thrill of the hunt, the battle, the hard-won victory. They don't think about the deaths they've caused any more than they contemplate the crew that they've lost when the fight goes the other way. What they are glorying in is the proof of their prowess and the thrill of overcoming their peers' capabilities.
The crew is simply irrelevant. It's a rare soldier who'll stop to count the drops of blood spilled on a battlefield; so it is with us and our human crew.
Of course, if the soldier has special cause to hate his enemy's physical blood, he might grin while contemplating the liters spilled but probably would hardly notice or care about the individual drops.
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I sometimes wonder if this steady decline can be halted in a way, or reversed. I've not found any solution to this yet, perhaps there is none.
Nor have I, and I'm past the point of desiring one. I think Vikarion is still looking for a fix; you might speak with him about it.
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And if not, it is only a question of time before enough capsuleers have lost their sanity and the Empires or CONCORD takes action. We can not have an armada of happy killer gods running around killing for fun, now can we?
Well-- we can, actually. We just can't have an armada of happy killer gods running around here.
The galaxy is vast, and humanity's empires represent not even a fraction of the full scope of space. The Exodus Project is meant to accomplish exactly this: to part us from those we harm.
It's a long-term project, but I hope to see it bear fruit one day. Hm.... I really need to get a channel set up for coordinating efforts.
In any case, your help would be welcome.
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Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.27 19:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: BloodBird
I have arrived at the stage where the deaths of my enemies and my own nation's navy start to become meaningless. I feel like I'm slipping into a state of apathetic oblivion, where nothing matters and the screams from the dead and dying are numbed away.
The deaths are never meaningless from my point of view, but I have to say that I've never been to the point where the dead scream at me. I'd see a shrink if they were. As for the dying, it's easy enough to tell them to shut the hell up whining and die with some dignity.
Originally by: BloodBird
Do you kill all these people for fun? Because you hate them and they 'deserve' to die? Because you enjoy the death you create in your actions? Or because it's a needed evil, a part of your duty to your families, peoples, and nations?
To answer your question, none of the above.
I don't really hate anyone to be honest... Killing people is a means to an end, that end is getting paid. It's as simple as that. I couldn't really care less who ends up in the sights if I cut a goo bottom line from the outcome.
The best thing to do is to not bother yourself with the complexities of the common perception of morality. 99.9% of it is a pile of crap anyway. Create your own set of morals and principles.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
BloodBird
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2010.01.28 00:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Evet Morrel
Shame, I believe it would be quite an experience to know you. However, you are rude BloodBird, not the worst of sins IFll admit. Where is that famed Intaki genius for communication..Worst than this, though, you are disingenuous, to the degree to which you undermine your message. You lash out at those who extend their hand to you. I donFt assume, but I do seem to have made the mistake of taking you at your word, perhaps that is the take away message here: the real warning.
Aaah, the 'famed Intaki genius for communication'. I'm not entirely sure I ever had that, sadly. I wish I did often enough; it would make saying what I want said much easier, and likely easier to understand.
I lash out at those who extend their hand to me? Perhaps I do. I do not mind being offered things, homes least of those, but I've no reason or desire to go to yours. I mean no offence, but I will not fit in, believe me on that.
Originally by: Evet Morrel
I will however express the hope that you are not beyond the reach of perhaps an old friend, even if some hidden stamp, some old wound, makes my concern suspect.
Originally by: BloodBird
Thanks for the offer Sophie, I'll keep that in mind, for when I have time and desire ready. Yes it has indeed been a while, I've been busy planet-side, mostly.
It appears that misery loves company. Do, by all means plunge into another nationalist struggle, but I warn you BloodBird camaraderie will give you only temporary relief from the sins that disturb your piece of mind.
I don't intend to go join another national struggle, not for now at least. I will admit however my last reply to Miss. Starsparrow were unclear as to what I meant. I'll elaborate a little.
Originally by: Sophie Starsparrow
*Sophie listens to the messages, fast forwarding through all the unrelated response, pausing only once or twice.*
Hello Pilot Bloodbird, long time no see. *smiles*
I am, like you, happy enough when another capsuleer even acknowledges that this is a problem we face. As much of a relief it is to see others experiencing the same thing, it is frustrating to watch some of them seek the answer where they have found only the problem.
We have managed to find peace, and balance, in our role as pod pilot killers. We have found it in, of all places, ancient rituals. They make us ask the questions you find yourself asking now. They slow us down, reconnect us, and...it seems to make all the difference in the world. In all the worlds. *smiles again*
Should you like to try it some time, you would be more than welcomed to our sweat lodge. Just contact me for the coordinates. *winks*
If you are not willing or interested in trying it, may you find your peace in other ways. *She bows slightly as the screen goes black*
If I understood Sophie correct, Miss. Morrel, she offered me a possible solution to my current problems, and asked that if I wanted coordinates to her sweat lodge, I should contact her. It sounds like it might be a good idea, so I thanked her for the offer and informed that, given time and desire, I might give it a go. I did not mean to go off and join her in any other way, and it don't appear to me like she offered much else either. Sorry for the miss-understanding.
Originally by: Evet Morrel
You are clearly in pain, a presumption based on a reasonable reading of you own initial post.
Yes, your right. Mental agony, at that. Like I said, I'm preparing to deal with this, it should help on my problems currently.
Allisieer
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If you don't want to get hurt, stop making me ammo. |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.01.28 01:08:00 -
[24]
Hello, Ethan. I hope you and Bloodbird won't mind if I presume to make a couple observations.
Your comments make a great deal of sense based on your own identity, but I'm afraid they won't be particularly helpful to him, any more than they would be to me. Let me see whether I can explain; I'm sure Bloodbird will step in if I generalize too much.
Originally by: Verone
The deaths are never meaningless from my point of view, but I have to say that I've never been to the point where the dead scream at me. I'd see a shrink if they were. As for the dying, it's easy enough to tell them to shut the hell up whining and die with some dignity.
....
I don't really hate anyone to be honest... Killing people is a means to an end, that end is getting paid. It's as simple as that. I couldn't really care less who ends up in the sights if I cut a goo bottom line from the outcome.
The best thing to do is to not bother yourself with the complexities of the common perception of morality. 99.9% of it is a pile of crap anyway. Create your own set of morals and principles.
The view you express here, harsh as it sounds, is a very "human" one-- one that echoes the outlook of warlords and pirates down the ages. It also echoes much of the outlook of both your human contacts among the Guristas and my Dominations superiors. You are deadly, Ethan, but you are, to all psychological intents and purposes, human.
Were we similarly so, both Bloodbird and I would be very different people. I, personally, am a defender by nature: I take the public good seriously and the "social contract" of a society as binding. The human Aria Jenneth might have made a good police officer (or might have become a murderer, regardless, but I don't think that's very likely).
What is aberrant about our behavior and outlook is that mass slaughter would ordinarily be antithetical to our instincts and personalities, yet we engage in it anyway without what we are doing properly registering on our emotions. Faced with a tall and heavily populated building, we as humans would almost certainly balk at demolishing it, "business" or no, but we don't hesitate to destroy large numbers of ships with comparable population sizes.
It's not that we "make our own rules." It's not that we even ever discarded the ones we used to live by; on the contrary, both he and I have been soldiers in the cause of our own societies at one time or another. And we still believe in our home civilizations.
But we are no longer really a part of those civilizations, or of the species those civilizations both protect. Or that is my conclusion; Bloodbird may reach a different one. We no longer see humans as "of us." Pilots are "of us." Pilots are the minds behind the ships we destroy; they are the ones who matter.
Humans killed in the process are nothing but spilled ship-blood.
The upshot, Ethan, is that you would most likely be an outlaw, pod or no pod. That is the role you have adopted for yourself, and it seems to suit you. It's the same for many of my fellow Ghosts. But your approach to mass death does not work so well for us: you notice it, and deal with it. We never really notice it at all.
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Gemma Naquist
Kuomi Logistics
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Posted - 2010.01.28 02:33:00 -
[25]
"...Terrorism is not by itself political mobilization but a means to an end...
...While a pirate may embody the final expression of freedom - she is isolated, alienated, and finally defeated - she effectively turns to terror as a substitute for reason..."
quoth Evet Morrel -Star Fraction
t`Pirates will be pirates after all`
`they are pirates, they have no credibility...v
quoth Tomahawk Bliss-Star Fraction.
KUOMI LOGISTICS: The bright future, today!V |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.01.28 03:00:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 28/01/2010 03:02:34
Originally by: Gemma Naquist
"...Terrorism is not by itself political mobilization but a means to an end...
...While a pirate may embody the final expression of freedom - she is isolated, alienated, and finally defeated - she effectively turns to terror as a substitute for reason..."
quoth Evet Morrel -Star Fraction
t`Pirates will be pirates after all`
`they are pirates, they have no credibility...v
quoth Tomahawk Bliss-Star Fraction.
Say they so?
Well, then, considering that I don't generally talk to Star Fraction and they generally return the courtesy, and further considering that while Ethan and I are pirates, to the best of my knowledge Bloodbird is very much not (which would make your words, if meant as some sort of criticism of the Fractionites here, very odd)....
Do you have any words of your own to share, Ms. Naquist?
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BloodBird
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2010.01.28 03:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Hello, Ethan. I hope you and Bloodbird won't mind if I presume to make a couple observations.
Your comments make a great deal of sense based on your own identity, but I'm afraid they won't be particularly helpful to him, any more than they would be to me. Let me see whether I can explain; I'm sure Bloodbird will step in if I generalize too much.
Only one thing really;
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
But we are no longer really a part of those civilizations, or of the species those civilizations both protect. Or that is my conclusion; Bloodbird may reach a different one. We no longer see humans as "of us." Pilots are "of us." Pilots are the minds behind the ships we destroy; they are the ones who matter.
I don't consider myself to be 'above' or 'beyond' anything. I'm a capsuleer; a man who were fortunate enough to get between the needle's eye and endure the training needed to gain the most prestigous and dangerous... job, the universe offers. I won through where millions fail. I did not become anything more than I am. I am no god, no post-human, nothing special in this regard. I am just a cybernetically enhanced human with access to cloning and a purely optional quasi-immortality.
I am still very much a part of the Intaki Assembly, I retain my citizenship, I retain my home planetside, I maintain contact with my family and friends. But I am not above their skies, fiering hybrid rounds at gun-metal grey ships sending missiles back at me, anymore.
I am far from their skies now. If I ever break completely, it should be far enough.
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If you don't want to get hurt, stop making me ammo. |
Sophie Starsparrow
Minmatar
Starfish Operating Syndicate
Annwn Matari
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Posted - 2010.01.28 03:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Evet Morrel
Originally by: BloodBird
Thanks for the offer Sophie, I'll keep that in mind, for when I have time and desire ready. Yes it has indeed been a while, I've been busy planet-side, mostly.
It appears that misery loves company. Do, by all means plunge into another nationalist struggle, but I warn you BloodBird camaraderie will give you only temporary relief from the sins that disturb your piece of mind.
Bloodbird is rude Pilot Morrel? Which one am I in your opinion, misery or company? *smiles* I am also quite confused how partaking in one of my tribes rituals relates to plunging into another nationalist struggle in your mind. I would caution you not to speak of what you do not know. We have found these rituals work for us very well, and provide much more than temporary relief, and very little camaraderie is involved. I find your comments to be pointlessly ignorant and, well, frankly...rude.
Aria...I still think you and I agree on way more than you have allowed yourself to see...of course, there is one difference glaring difference in our approach. You attempt to make the divide capsuleers from the rest of humanity larger, while I attempt to make it smaller. Please note that I am not saying which one is the correct approach, I honestly don't know. I do know, I am at peace.*smiles again*
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.01.28 05:40:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 28/01/2010 05:42:16
Originally by: BloodBird
I don't consider myself to be 'above' or 'beyond' anything.
Ah-- I keep having to explain this.
"Apart" does not imply hierarchy. Value judgments are subjective by nature, and one gets into such trouble claiming to be some kind of superior life form. People tend to object.
We are "superior" in our destructive capabilities, yes, "superior" in our potential life spans and so on and so forth. Humans, however, have demonstrated their viability over thousands upon thousands of years. We have done no such thing, and the sheer destruction we cause suggests that we are ill-suited to our present environment. The parasite that kills its host is not a very well-adapted parasite. The same is true of the one who is killed by it.
In the end, pilot, the only judgment the universe ever renders is that of consequence. And one consequence of our presence, here, is destruction. This is no fit place for us.
We are neither greater nor lesser; we are only apart. And our separateness is, itself, the cause of much harm.
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I am no god, no post-human, nothing special in this regard. I am just a cybernetically enhanced human with access to cloning and a purely optional quasi-immortality.
It seems that some part of you begs to differ. Or how would you explain our drift? Madness?
Insanity is typically described as a deviation from the norm. How do you explain a deviation that becomes a norm?
To my eye, you are correct on every point but this one: you are the technological echo of a cybernetically-enhanced human. The human you were made from is dead; you are, at best, a remarkably close approximation.
To describe you as "posthuman" or "transhuman" is insufficient, limited as it is to describing what you were, rather than what you are. "Infomorph" is my term of choice.
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I am still very much a part of the Intaki Assembly, I retain my citizenship, I retain my home planetside, I maintain contact with my family and friends.
Mm. Good for you; it may help slow the slide.
Quote:
But I am not above their skies, fiering hybrid rounds at gun-metal grey ships sending missiles back at me, anymore.
I am far from their skies now. If I ever break completely, it should be far enough.
Again, good for you.
If it's any comfort, I don't remember ever hearing of a demented infomorph abruptly deciding that annihilating his family sounded like a wonderful idea (not counting Magnus Nordir, who has a lot more than dementia working against him). I'd be more worried about my family, being as they'd be in your militia's path.
Ms. Starsparrow:
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You attempt to make the divide capsuleers from the rest of humanity larger, while I attempt to make it smaller.
Perhaps.
The gulf I see between ourselves and humankind is not one I see any realistic means of bridging. Maybe we could sustain it, for a while, as Silver Night once suggested, on glamor and illusion: action figures, cartoons-- public relations campaigns. But in the end, I think our own corrosive influence would eat through such ephemeral defenses.
The idealist might say, as many have, "But we do not have to be this way!"
Very well, I say, let's go and tell the nullsec alliances that they all have to play nice, now.
Our economy is lubricated with human blood. We all partake.
That being so, it does not seem to me that there is any benefit to drawing closer when the gulf is one we can never cross and never fill. Better to recognize what we are and lay our plans to survive the moment when the friends and loved ones we have left on the other side of the divide realize its existence and character.
As I recall, Bloodbird did not used to find much merit in my writings-- and, of course, he still does not share my conclusions. But he's noticed what I've noticed.
I see pilots sliding, one by one, to where I am. I see few, if any, successfully climbing back up. Few even try.
I'd admittedly like to see one manage it.
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Evet Morrel
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.28 12:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Gemma Naquist
"...Terrorism is not by itself political mobilization but a means to an end...
...While a pirate may embody the final expression of freedom - she is isolated, alienated, and finally defeated - she effectively turns to terror as a substitute for reason..."
quoth Evet Morrel -Star Fraction
t`Pirates will be pirates after all`
`they are pirates, they have no credibility...v
quoth Tomahawk Bliss-Star Fraction.
Indeed Gemma, is it so surprising that Toma and I agree about this? I think you are perhaps misunderstanding something here. You might ask a question if you find me unclear?
Originally by: Sophie Starsparrow
Which one am I in your opinion, misery or company? *smiles* I am also quite confused how partaking in one of my tribes rituals relates to plunging into another nationalist struggle in your mind. I would caution you not to speak of what you do not know. We have found these rituals work for us very well, and provide much more than temporary relief, and very little camaraderie is involved. I find your comments to be pointlessly ignorant and, well, frankly...rude.
*smiling* Your obtuse Sophie, looking for insults where their are none. The platitude above is a truism, a Gallentian saying that may suffer in translation. Actually, I've spent sometime in the Republic admittedly amongst the Thukker, a placement before I got tenure at the Centre for Advanced Studies. Some pretty formative experiences. You'll not find me glib when talking about Minmatar culture. I have seen some pretty remarkable Minmatar rituals, in fact.
Originally by: Sophie Starsparrow
I find your comments to be pointlessly ignorant and, well, frankly...rude
No, Sophie not really, I don't think you do. I believe you're feigning this - your are being oblique in order to be provocative. You know very well the point I was making, your incredible claim to the contrary notwithstanding.
Join the shadow army, L'armTe des Ombres, be part of something less parochial ... or if not, remember nothing takes away the taste of shame & humiliation like mom's rhubarb pie.
Nope on second thought you had better join the revolution.
Jericho is recruiting
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