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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
68
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Posted - 2012.06.26 07:49:00 -
[181] - Quote
Forums moderator anywhere are/turn into control freaks?
Tell us something we dont know. |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 07:53:00 -
[182] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Greetings, IGÇÖm Athechu a Commander (Assistant Team Lead) of ISD:STAR (In-game ISD). I am currently also helping out the ISD:CCL with the forums but I focus mainly on the EVE New Citizens Q&A section of the forums. First please visit the ISD Wiki page and understand the differences of the teams. It will explain a lot more of what the teams within the ISD do. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISDReading through this thread and watching I see that that both sides have made mistakes. Posters that delibertly started to create spam/troll/argue threads in the forum and ISD members for not explaining which rules have been broken. Now the focus has been shifted to the ISD as being some kind of supreme evil overlords. We are players of the same game as you and we enjoy it like you. The difference is that we have decided to contribute our time to the community that makes EVE so great. CCPGÇÖs Internal Affairs team watches over not only the ISD accounts but our player account(s) as well. If an individual of the ISD is found abusing their volunteer position CCP will take the appropriate actions. No ISD team has the ability to ban anyone from any server, or forum. But just like you we do have the ability to report problems to the appropriate people using the same methods. CCP internal teams handle all of that. If you have a reasonable suspicion that an ISD member is abusing his/her position in some way in the game, you can contact Internal Affairs directly by sending an e-mail to [email protected] or file a petition using the methods below (only choose one method). In game: Press F12, click create new petition, Group: Rules and Policies, Category: Game Masters & ISD Out of game: https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Petitions/CreatePetition.aspxPlease remember to include forum links and a name of who you are reporting. This helps in insuring a timely investigation. Fly safe!
Hello,
I and a silent majority wholeheartedly support you and your heavy efforts in what is the most thankless job on the internets.
Know that you are appreciated and please don't give up. Don't listen to this garbage of humanity who sperg their nonsense all over this forum and dare to call it "freedom of speech".
Keep the good work,
One of many customers happy to see some moderation in this sea of spoiled childs ship poastings.
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 07:55:00 -
[183] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote: ISD members for not explaining which rules have been broken.
The initial issue was overreaching moderation of things that are well within the historical norms of the Forums along with stupendously unevenly applied rules and locks, and finally there's the matter of seemingly posting rationales at random. The last one is by far the least important. I'd post with my Main, but I don't think I'm allowed to, no matter how red his fortified wine is. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
752
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 07:56:00 -
[184] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:If you have a reasonable suspicion that an ISD member is abusing his/her position in some way in the game What about abusing their position on the forums?
Alaya Carrier wrote:I and a silent majority Talked to everyone have you? Incursions still need to be nerfed more. Cut payouts by 50% for all ships worth more than 10m. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 07:57:00 -
[185] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Forums moderator anywhere are/turn into control freaks?
Tell us something we dont know.
When the people you're trying to moderate are acting like a bunch of baboons who just smoked a vat of bath salts, I can see why.
They need to start putting a lot of these monkeys back into their cages. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:00:00 -
[186] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Greetings, IGÇÖm Athechu a Commander (Assistant Team Lead) of ISD:STAR (In-game ISD). I am currently also helping out the ISD:CCL with the forums but I focus mainly on the EVE New Citizens Q&A section of the forums. First please visit the ISD Wiki page and understand the differences of the teams. It will explain a lot more of what the teams within the ISD do. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISDReading through this thread and watching I see that that both sides have made mistakes. Posters that delibertly started to create spam/troll/argue threads in the forum and ISD members for not explaining which rules have been broken. Now the focus has been shifted to the ISD as being some kind of supreme evil overlords. We are players of the same game as you and we enjoy it like you. The difference is that we have decided to contribute our time to the community that makes EVE so great. CCPGÇÖs Internal Affairs team watches over not only the ISD accounts but our player account(s) as well. If an individual of the ISD is found abusing their volunteer position CCP will take the appropriate actions. No ISD team has the ability to ban anyone from any server, or forum. But just like you we do have the ability to report problems to the appropriate people using the same methods. CCP internal teams handle all of that. If you have a reasonable suspicion that an ISD member is abusing his/her position in some way in the game, you can contact Internal Affairs directly by sending an e-mail to [email protected] or file a petition using the methods below (only choose one method). In game: Press F12, click create new petition, Group: Rules and Policies, Category: Game Masters & ISD Out of game: https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Petitions/CreatePetition.aspxPlease remember to include forum links and a name of who you are reporting. This helps in insuring a timely investigation. Fly safe!
I appreciate you making a statement. Forgive me if I cant take what you have said blindly. While I believe you are monitored by employees of CCP I dont believe its nearly has involved has it should be. Their have been problems on going since the CCL started and it is time that CCP address them and tell us if they are problems in their eyes or not.
I love everybut ISD has done over the years. Up until the CCL and the few bad eggs with the game evens awhile back I had nothing bad to say about the organization. We just want a more transparent and involved selection process for the moderators and for the guidelines they moderate by to be published by CCP so we know what they want out of the forums and the moderators have something that can keep them consistent with their moderation.
So, thank you. But, I think this isn't going to settle down till we have a Dev come in, or at the very least the CSM promise to look into it.
Regards, Jason Marshall |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
308
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:01:00 -
[187] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Greetings, IGÇÖm Athechu a Commander (Assistant Team Lead) of ISD:STAR (In-game ISD). I am currently also helping out the ISD:CCL with the forums but I focus mainly on the EVE New Citizens Q&A section of the forums. First please visit the ISD Wiki page and understand the differences of the teams. It will explain a lot more of what the teams within the ISD do. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISDReading through this thread and watching I see that that both sides have made mistakes. Posters that delibertly started to create spam/troll/argue threads in the forum and ISD members for not explaining which rules have been broken. Now the focus has been shifted to the ISD as being some kind of supreme evil overlords. We are players of the same game as you and we enjoy it like you. The difference is that we have decided to contribute our time to the community that makes EVE so great. CCPGÇÖs Internal Affairs team watches over not only the ISD accounts but our player account(s) as well. If an individual of the ISD is found abusing their volunteer position CCP will take the appropriate actions. No ISD team has the ability to ban anyone from any server, or forum. But just like you we do have the ability to report problems to the appropriate people using the same methods. CCP internal teams handle all of that. If you have a reasonable suspicion that an ISD member is abusing his/her position in some way in the game, you can contact Internal Affairs directly by sending an e-mail to [email protected] or file a petition using the methods below (only choose one method). In game: Press F12, click create new petition, Group: Rules and Policies, Category: Game Masters & ISD Out of game: https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Petitions/CreatePetition.aspxPlease remember to include forum links and a name of who you are reporting. This helps in insuring a timely investigation. Fly safe! I will expand on this and send you an email.
However, for now go dig up the petition I sent in just before this forum exploded once the warning signs were evident.
Your "Ensign" ISD representatives made an absolute hack job of CCP's forum today and guess what? Don't expect that evil and bumbling overlord tag to vanish any time soon.
People may want to contribute their spare time to moderating forums but moderation is much more subtle than locking threads and simply putting your hand up frankly isn't good enough. I see you see also obsessed with "rules" that have "been broken". This attitude simply is not sufficient to manage such a farrago. CCP shoud have never allowed such an "us and them" culture to take root here.
You call it "abuse" but I will call it incompetence through ignorance/lack of ability and suggest people email [email protected] for maximum visibility. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:01:00 -
[188] - Quote
+1
T... |
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ISD Athechu
ISD STAR
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:05:00 -
[189] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote: The initial issue was overreaching moderation of things that are well within the historical norms of the Forums along with stupendously unevenly applied rules and locks, and finally there's the matter of seemingly posting rationales at random. The last one is by far the least important.
I am aware as I have been watching this all day long. We have followed our procedures and all I'm asking is that if you have a problem with a specific ISD member is not to get outraged and spam the forums causing more work for us and making you* look like the bad guy. But follow the procedure that I just gave you if someone in-game has a problem with the way a STAR moderates they get the same line.
* Not directed at you specifically
KrakizBad wrote:ISD Athechu wrote:If you have a reasonable suspicion that an ISD member is abusing his/her position in some way in the game What about abusing their position on the forums?
If their position is to deal with the forums than yes.
Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL and cannot speak for the team. I am here just to tell you how to handle a lock or deletion of a thread if you believe it was unjust or if you believe an ISD member is abusing their powers. If you have an issue please direct them to the CCL Recruitment thread for answers. I believe there is an email in that thread if you absolutely must contact a Team Lead of ISD:CCL. ISD Athechu Commander ISD STAR (Support Training and Resources) EVE New Citizens Q&A Resources |
|
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:09:00 -
[190] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Pipa Porto wrote: The initial issue was overreaching moderation of things that are well within the historical norms of the Forums along with stupendously unevenly applied rules and locks, and finally there's the matter of seemingly posting rationales at random. The last one is by far the least important.
I am aware as I have been watching this all day long. We have followed our procedures and all I'm asking is that if you have a problem with a specific ISD member is not to get outraged and spam the forums causing more work for us and making you* look like the bad guy. But follow the procedure that I just gave you. If someone in-game has a problem with the way a STAR moderates they get the same line. * Not directed at you specifically KrakizBad wrote:ISD Athechu wrote:If you have a reasonable suspicion that an ISD member is abusing his/her position in some way in the game What about abusing their position on the forums? If their position is to deal with the forums than yes. Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL and cannot speak for the team. I am here just to tell you how to handle a lock or deletion of a thread if you believe it was unjust or if you believe an ISD member is abusing their powers. If you have an issue please direct them to the CCL Recruitment thread for answers. I believe there is an email in that thread if you absolutely must contact a Team Lead of ISD:CCL.
Heavy handed with the perma ban hammers dont you think ?
T.. |
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Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:11:00 -
[191] - Quote
Diagnosis: Butthurt.
Seriously if you are quitting the game over the forums being managed correctly I don't even know what to say to you. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:12:00 -
[192] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:
I am aware as I have been watching this all day long. We have followed our procedures and all I'm asking is that if you have a problem with a specific ISD member is not to get outraged and spam the forums causing more work for us and making you* look like the bad guy. But follow the procedure that I just gave you. If someone in-game has a problem with the way a STAR moderates they get the same line.
Our issue isnt with one person its with the CCL has a whole. Its broken and we need to fix it now before it grows into the system any further.
- Jason Marshall |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:21:00 -
[193] - Quote
The ISD team seems to function after the principle of
STRENGTH THROUGH DISCIPLINE STRENGTH THROUGH COMMUNITY
and last but not least
STRENGTH THROUGH ACTION
cu in C&P /Wave
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:21:00 -
[194] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Pipa Porto wrote: The initial issue was overreaching moderation of things that are well within the historical norms of the Forums along with stupendously unevenly applied rules and locks, and finally there's the matter of seemingly posting rationales at random. The last one is by far the least important.
I am aware as I have been watching this all day long. We have followed our procedures and all I'm asking is that if you have a problem with a specific ISD member is not to get outraged and spam the forums causing more work for us and making you* look like the bad guy. But follow the procedure that I just gave you. If someone in-game has a problem with the way a STAR moderates they get the same line. * Not directed at you specifically
No, it's fine. I intentionally tried to touch this off (and succeeded reasonably well).
CCP has a very long history of never listening to its players until something loud happens. You only have to go as far back as this Fanfest when people told CCP "Hey, if you make PC kills drop LP for their cargo, someone's going to manipulate the market for incredible profit" to see evidence of this at work.
If it were just one bad egg in the CCL team, a quiet bunch of petitions might have worked, but the whole CCL idea is rotten from the core. Simply raising your hand does not give you the experience and light touch needed to moderate a forum like this.
We have always ragged on CCP. Always called CCP incompetent. And we almost mean it sometimes, but it's said out of love and with a hope that CCP will occasionally learn from their mistakes and improve. Editing and locking threads that simply express mild displeasure or hints of dissent is beyond the pale of the norms on these forums.
You say you've been watching this all day long. This has been going on for far longer, today just happens to be the day it boiled over. The heavy handed moderation has been going on since I noticed the ISDs moderating. Maybe they have rules about what they can and can't say, but not being able or willing to jump into a thread that's going haywire and calm it down without resorting to editing posts or locking threads means not being able to manage a forum of this size. Period.
STAR has a very, very different community to work with and has a much more controlled environment to work in. That's why they work so well (though I'd love to see their training budget improved). In the Rookie/Help channels, heavy handed moderation is just fine because everybody on the same page of Helping/Getting help. The forums are different.
Basically, unless CCP is willing to put in the effort to train CCLs on social grace and tact under fire (good luck), the CCL program will cause this type of thing again, and again, and so on and so forth.
-RubyPorto I'd post with my Main, but I don't think I'm allowed to, no matter how red his fortified wine is. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
308
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:22:00 -
[195] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:1) Petitions cannot be discussed on the forums per CCP Forum Rules (Rule 9)...
Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL... Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:28:00 -
[196] - Quote
I am all for taming this forum till it becomes a regular MMO forum and not a crazy land where obsessed psychos explode all their repression and immature rants because they know that there will never be *consequences* for their actions.
In the other forums this is easily accomplished by banning all the offenders and letting them cool off.
So keep the good work, and make the EvE forums a place where to go and get information, not "trololol" and "ship toasting". |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:I am all for taming this forum till it becomes a regular MMO forum and not a crazy land where obsessed psychos explode all their repression and immature rants because they know that there will never be *consequences* for their actions.
In the other forums this is easily accomplished by banning all the offenders and letting them cool off.
So keep the good work, and make the EvE forums a place where to go and get information, not "trololol" and "ship toasting".
Indeed, and is not dominated by Alliances going off on each other over their E-peens. |
Indo Nira
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:31:00 -
[198] - Quote
I am soooo disappointed. i thought i'd see a petition. a raging kid is not a petition... |
Mirime Nolwe
Mantra of Pain
47
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:32:00 -
[199] - Quote
Keep cleaning this forum please. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:32:00 -
[200] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:I am all for taming this forum till it becomes a regular MMO forum and not a crazy land where obsessed psychos explode all their repression and immature rants because they know that there will never be *consequences* for their actions.
In the other forums this is easily accomplished by banning all the offenders and letting them cool off.
I really hope CCP doesn't listen to you. The EvE-O forums have always been better than most because of the open discussion that was possible. Excessive moderation and bans have a chilling effect on those sorts of (spectacularly productive, thoug not too polite) discussions.
Quote:So keep the good work, and make the EvE forums a place where to go and get information, not "trololol" and "ship toasting".
So I guess this should be banned?
That's certainly shiptoasting and trolling. I'd post with my Main, but I don't think I'm allowed to, no matter how red his fortified wine is. |
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pussnheels
432
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:33:00 -
[201] - Quote
isn t this a bit over the top just about every large gaming company is using volunteers to moderate their forums
Just give them a chance to proof that they are capable of moderating these forums in a fair and neutral way I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:36:00 -
[202] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:isn t this a bit over the top just about every large gaming company is using volunteers to moderate their forums
Just give them a chance to proof that they are capable of moderating these forums in a fair and neutral way
We have. They have been found un-able.
Someone pay Dark Shikari to come back and moderate. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
310
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:38:00 -
[203] - Quote
Less moderation is better than censorship. Locking threads and deleting posts should be the last thing a moderator does. A polite reply with (maybe) some mild humor would do a lot to get most threads back on topic.
Locking is bad m'kay. Fix FW ! |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
308
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:39:00 -
[204] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:isn t this a bit over the top just about every large gaming company is using volunteers to moderate their forums
Just give them a chance to proof that they are capable of moderating these forums in a fair and neutral way Yes, but I've seen it done a lot better than this.
They can "proof" (sic) what they like but the last 12 hours was appalling.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:39:00 -
[205] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Alaya Carrier wrote:I am all for taming this forum till it becomes a regular MMO forum and not a crazy land where obsessed psychos explode all their repression and immature rants because they know that there will never be *consequences* for their actions.
In the other forums this is easily accomplished by banning all the offenders and letting them cool off.
I really hope CCP doesn't listen to you. The EvE-O forums have always been better than most because of the open discussion that was possible. Excessive moderation and bans have a chilling effect on those sorts of (spectacularly productive, thoug not too polite) discussions. Quote:So keep the good work, and make the EvE forums a place where to go and get information, not "trololol" and "ship toasting". So I guess this should be banned? That's certainly shiptoasting and trolling. OOPE is very different than GD don't you agree? |
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:39:00 -
[206] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Alaya Carrier wrote:I am all for taming this forum till it becomes a regular MMO forum and not a crazy land where obsessed psychos explode all their repression and immature rants because they know that there will never be *consequences* for their actions.
In the other forums this is easily accomplished by banning all the offenders and letting them cool off.
I really hope CCP doesn't listen to you. The EvE-O forums have always been better than most because of the open discussion that was possible. Excessive moderation and bans have a chilling effect on those sorts of (spectacularly productive, thoug not too polite) discussions.
Just the very fact you are circumventing a ban would you get all your accounts perma banned in most other MMOS. This happens expecially in strongly organization structured MMOs of course.
Maybe it's time CCP starts a stronger approach both against cheaters and forum specialized trolls.
There are at least two "alternative" EvE forums, people should feel free to go sperg over there. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:42:00 -
[207] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:pussnheels wrote:isn t this a bit over the top just about every large gaming company is using volunteers to moderate their forums
Just give them a chance to proof that they are capable of moderating these forums in a fair and neutral way Yes, but I've seen it done a lot better than this. They can "proof" (sic) what they like but the last 12 hours was appalling.
The last twelve hours was alot of people unable to stay silent about their displeasure with the new system. We say back and watched for a bit and decided we needed to get CCP aware of problems with the system. Something that wouldn't have happened if we had just all sent in our own petitions because CCP wont discuss petitions. And this is something that needs to be discussed. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:47:00 -
[208] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Alaya Carrier wrote:I am all for taming this forum till it becomes a regular MMO forum and not a crazy land where obsessed psychos explode all their repression and immature rants because they know that there will never be *consequences* for their actions.
In the other forums this is easily accomplished by banning all the offenders and letting them cool off.
I really hope CCP doesn't listen to you. The EvE-O forums have always been better than most because of the open discussion that was possible. Excessive moderation and bans have a chilling effect on those sorts of (spectacularly productive, thoug not too polite) discussions. Just the very fact you are circumventing a ban would you get all your accounts perma banned in most other MMOS. This happens expecially in strongly organization structured MMOs of course. Maybe it's time CCP starts a stronger approach both against cheaters and forum specialized trolls. There are at least two "alternative" EvE forums, people should feel free to go sperg over there.
Ok, I generally don't comment on peoples spelling and grammar. I believe you can have very valid and relevant posts without having perfect spelling and grammar. But I dont think you quite phrased what you meant in the right way with "This happens expecially in strongly organization structured MMOs of course."
Thats fine I think I got the gist of it though.
Alot of us have expressed that if CCP really intends to have a more rigid none creative forum then thats fine. We would respect that. But we want that in CCP writing before we stop fighting for the community hub we have know and loved for almost a decade now.
Also, their are trolls on both sides of this. Its not trolls versus ISD on this one. Its people who know the system one way and have seen a drastic change in how that system is being moderated versus the people who want a more WoW like forum.
Also you clearly don't care very much for this issue, you aren't even posting on your main. |
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ISD Athechu
ISD STAR
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:50:00 -
[209] - Quote
Pipa Porto - Great post I will make sure the CCL Leads/CCL Team sees it.
Graic Gabtar wrote:ISD Athechu wrote:1) Petitions cannot be discussed on the forums per CCP Forum Rules (Rule 9)...
Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL... Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank.
To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception. All I'm doing is stating how to go about properly reporting something if you happen to disagree with it. Create one thread with specific issues that the community has. I can point you to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96986 that was brought up to a STAR Lead who answered the question and it was left at that. There was no mass uprising or anything of that nature. ISD Athechu Commander ISD STAR (Support Training and Resources) EVE New Citizens Q&A Resources |
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Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:52:00 -
[210] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Pipa Porto - Great post I will make sure the CCL Leads/CCL Team sees it. Graic Gabtar wrote:ISD Athechu wrote:1) Petitions cannot be discussed on the forums per CCP Forum Rules (Rule 9)...
Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL... Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank. To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception. All I'm doing is stating how to go about properly reporting something if you happen to disagree with it. Create one thread with specific issues that the community has. I can point you to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96986 that was brought up to a STAR Lead who answered the question and it was left at that. There was no mass uprising or anything of that nature.
Please make sure it also lands on the CCP employee's desk that directly oversees them.
All of ISD has done a great job over the years we would like you to keep on doing the good work! Its the new group we are having problems with. |
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