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Lady Aja
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.31 02:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Synlandro
The recent rash of can flipers and ninja looters is out of sight. I got a few people i know in rl to come on and play but but didn't stay long. they just get frustrated and upset with people that come into there mission areas and steal there loot witch you are alowed to fight back but usualy there is a pack waiting to pounch them as soon as you shoot them for stealing. Same with your ore cans. Why do they alow this? why do they even have high sec if its like this? and why do so many older players do this to the newbie players?(if you been playen for 2 years and need to off of a newb cause you are broke it is really kinda sad) I gota say ccp is losing players over it why is nothing bieng done.
This is darwins theory at work. players who come and get ****ed off at the game and its mechanics and leave are basically dodo birds just waiting to die. |
Elena Laskova
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Posted - 2010.01.31 08:36:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Elena Laskova on 31/01/2010 08:40:05
The community can hardly go downhill - its natural and only location is at the bottom of the slope. EvE treats rookies as a consumable resource, like ammunition or construction materials.
EvE attracts and keeps a lot of players who get their fun by interfering with other players. There a very high proportion of the total because they are much more likely to stay than other kinds of gamers.
They particularly enjoy making life miserable for rookies, since rookies are the lowest risk target, and might well provide the greatest reward of all: they may leave the game as a result of being harassed.
There is no point in berating them, because they are the norm. They've been the majority for a long time.
I saw a trailer the other day for a film where the world is populated with vampires, and a small minority of humans was being ruthlessly harvested for blood. Not quite a perfect metaphor for EvE, but in such a situation, how far will you get telling the vampires they are scumbag parasites and should be ashamed of themselves /lol.
Rookies can find ways to enjoy EvE. You can learn to minimize the consequences of harassment, you can enjoy fighting them, or you can join them.
But you can't completely avoid them. They are a large majority. Most "nice" people you meet are faking it - they will have a griefer alt. |
Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.01.31 08:58:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Elena Laskova
They particularly enjoy making life miserable for rookies, since rookies are the lowest risk target, and might well provide the greatest reward of all: they may leave the game as a result of being harassed.
I've no idea what the actual proportion is, but in my experience, there seem to be far more people willing to help rookies than take advantage of them.
Try a test. Create a noob alt, then start asking rookie questions in local. If they're not completely inane and asked politely, I'd be surprised if you didn't get advice from at least one or two older characters.
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Synlandro
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Posted - 2010.01.31 09:29:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Synlandro on 31/01/2010 09:33:03
I am not shure what to say i just think its a problem. Highsec is for newbs to play in as far as i am concerned, I goto low sec for pvp fights. At the vary least the should take out the kill rights bit for a thief so a someone can pop a thief and not have to worie about the thief haven kill rights on you. And if it keeps comming up on this board its obviously a problem for a good number of ppl.
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Elena Laskova
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Posted - 2010.01.31 10:35:00 -
[35]
@ Seth Ruin
I did 4 2-week trials before subscribing, so I've done the "rookie Epic Arc" 5 times now. Obviously my experience wasn't negative, or I would not have subscribed. But ...
... I learned fairly early (my second trial) the first rule of EvE: "Don't trust *anyone*, ever".
More than half of the advice I received (outside of "Rookie Help") was incorrect, and intended solely to set me up to be ganked, or to interfere with my play in other ways. More generally, if there's a niche for rookie harassnment it's occupied by an effectively unlimited number of parasites looking to spread some misery.
There may be altruistic players out there, but how can you distinguish them from the trash? Griefers have the best "sales pitch" because they have so much practice.
There's nothing "bad" about this. It's EvE, and the game encourages harassment as a playstyle. With one exception, which is that the game is foolishly harsh towards genuine rookies - and that's more because of the players than the game design.
Of course can-flipping isn't the problem. It's hard to be all that sympathetic to victims when the game pops a panel explaining you're about to commit a crime /lol.
But I stand by my original assertion: there's no "downhill" left for EvE's "community" to reach.
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Dragonmede
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:09:00 -
[36]
Apparently the game that DIED is the one that is bleeding noobs into This Game.
Some Friendly Advice... try out one of those FarceBook Games like Farmkill, you will be happier there...
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Amaron Ghant
Caldari
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:12:00 -
[37]
The EVE player base consists largely of IT Professionals and Barrackroom Lawyers, most of whom have an idiot tolerance level so low it can't even be measured. Add in the wannabe leet kiddies hell bent on using game mechanics to annoy as many people as posssible in the shortest span of time and you have a really noxious miasma masquerading as an atmosphere in which to play the game.
Yet day in day out the number of people on line steadily increases.
It just goes to show, we like it like this. |
Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:19:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Ontaku Oroa on 31/01/2010 11:19:32
There is this nice little graph depicting the learning curve of the most popular MMO's out there, including EvE:
I think this depiction is absolutely correct.
I also think this is why playing this game is so much fun. You actually have to, at one point, use your brains.
During my time in Eve, from being a total rookie wondering how to mine veldspar to 0.0 dweller, I have been ganked exactly one time, by a smartbombing BS outside of a mission hub in lowsec. After that I learned to use the various tools at my disposal, such as standings, scanner, the map, cloak, and plain paying attention, and they have served me very well ever since.
This is a sandbox. It means you can do a lot of things the way you want to, but others can do the same to you. Fortunately, as I said, you have the option to use your brain, and that alone will put you well outside of the "shooting range" of most griefers.
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Synlandro
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:21:00 -
[39]
And just how many of these kids are gonna pay the bills? and how long are they gonna play before they figure out how long it takes to get anywhere in this game? so long that they drive out the regulars and the kids stop playen. then what no more eve. i say, i am one of those that says send them back to WoW.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:31:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Dr Karsun on 31/01/2010 11:33:10
Well, the can flipper problem is easily solved by macro miners - they warp back to station when their hold is full...
Wait... That's not legal D:
But any way... I'm still for not allowing can flipping in high sec without consequnce... Even though I haven't been running high sec missions for months I still find that it was a really bad habit there. Thank God thre was 'the blockade' mission in which you just warped in, unleashed drones, did 4-5 of them a day, being 99% afk. But somehow then the ninjas never came... Oh well. High sec is for newer people and it's really great for them. It should be even safer, that would attract even more people to eve. And when they feel ready - go to low sec or 0.0 and have fun there.
PS - I really LOVE those learning curves on that graph :) So true
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Decimus Octavius
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:52:00 -
[41]
blitz the missions, ignore the loot, get LP.. profit
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 12:02:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Dr Karsun
I'm still for not allowing can flipping in high sec without consequnce.
Why would they allow that all of a sudden?
yyy
tIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡`
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.v
y Karath Piki |
Feone
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Posted - 2010.01.31 12:03:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Synlandro
The recent rash of can flipers and ninja looters is out of sight. I got a few people i know in rl to come on and play but but didn't stay long. they just get frustrated and upset with people that come into there mission areas and steal there loot witch you are alowed to fight back but usualy there is a pack waiting to pounch them as soon as you shoot them for stealing. Same with your ore cans. Why do they alow this? why do they even have high sec if its like this? and why do so many older players do this to the newbie players?(if you been playen for 2 years and need to off of a newb cause you are broke it is really kinda sad) I gota say ccp is losing players over it why is nothing bieng done.
This has happened before and it will happen again. Your post could be from anytime in the last what 3+ years and not have to change one word.
Why? older players do this to 'newbs' cause EVE isn't that interesting, if you don't get wrapped up in something bigger (alliance, corp actually accomplishing something) players mess with other players to amuse themselves. True some of them are just alts of alliance/corp killing time between trades and what not but most are probably loser wannabe players that can't hack it in an alliance/00 or don't have the time to do so. The rest are new players doing what many have told them, mostly correctly, is the fastest way to make isk, ninja salvaging other people missions.
For questions on why there is highsec try to do missions/mine in low sec then you will understand.
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Synlandro
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Posted - 2010.01.31 13:12:00 -
[44]
Another thought would be to have auto bounty put on ppl who do this and somehow make it more disirable for player to hunt the thiefs could be fun for both sides the thief and the hunter.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.31 13:23:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Slade Hoo
The solution is very simple. There are hundreds of highsec-systems and lots of agents in highsec space you can use. Just choose a more quiet system for your missions/mining. Problem solved -> Profit!
Better yet, head to 0.0.
its not as scary as people would have it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 13:25:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Synlandro
Another thought would be to have auto bounty put on ppl who do this and somehow make it more disirable for player to hunt the thiefs could be fun for both sides the thief and the hunter.
Yes. That would make it insanely popular to flip cans, since they'd make a lot of money from their actions regardless of whether the baiting victim fell for the ruse or not.
…but I suspect you're aiming for the opposite effect.
yyy
tIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡`
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.v
y Karath Piki |
Spurty
Caldari
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.31 13:30:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Spurty on 31/01/2010 13:30:37
Get a friend or alt in a badger and haul, don't leave your can sitting there
Originally by: Hurley
I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.
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Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2010.01.31 13:57:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Julius Rigel on 31/01/2010 14:00:55
Originally by: Synlandro
...few people i know in rl to come on and play but but didn't stay long. [...] usualy there is a pack waiting to pounch them as soon as you shoot them for stealing.
So what you are saying is that the people who choose to play the multiplayer game with multiple players are having more fun than those who play alone?
Congratulations on saving the day, Captain Obvious! o7
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Dr Karsun
Gallente
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 14:25:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Dr Karsun
I'm still for not allowing can flipping in high sec without consequnce.
Why would they allow that all of a sudden?
Well, naturally the ninjas say that 'omng the risk is over-the-edge-high!' but we all know those are pure trolls. There is no chance a pve ship can win with even a 1 class lower pvp ship. The consequences that are now are 100% virtual. The person can still dock instantly after he flips, he can warp off, he can change his ship to something bigger and come back and bash you if you aggressed him. It's the same as saying suicide high sec gankers risk anything... With t1 fit you merely lose a couple million every gank per ship... Like what... 5? Maybe 10 with better fits. With 3-4 battleships you can easily gank a freighter in high sec. You call losing 10m consequence? Can flipping should be allowed, sure, but taking the stuff back from it shouldn't work backwards, it should not give killright to the griefer.
The can flipping and ninjas only do bad to the game, it causes people who start to quit fast, because they can't earn money, they get killed don't know for what because the can flipping rule is against all known logic. I'm not whining about 'omg make eve a 2nd wow', but make it easier for people to start. The tutorials are helpful, the people often help a lot, but noobs losing all they've got because logic in the game mechanics is screwed is really bad.
And NO the rule 'Fly only something you can afford to lose' does not apply here, because a few week old noob, first time playing noob, has nothing more than a cruiser, he can't afford to lose it. Sure, after 2-3 months you can afford to lose a battleship without problems, but when starting - it's really unfair to use lack of game mechanics knowledge against people.
I've been robbed by ninjas multiple times, mostly I didn't give a damn and just went ratting further, but when you lose a key item to a quest - it's really a sign of FLAWED mechanics. Give mission items a 30 minute countdown till you can scoop it, or untill the target mission item is scooped by the person who took the mission, don't trigger the mission finished (in that case you'd only need to wait untill DT, re-run the mission and get the item, that's also a good solution).
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.01.31 14:43:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Amaron Ghant
It just goes to show, we like it like this.
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Troye
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.01.31 14:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Synlandro
The recent rash of can flipers and ninja looters is out of sight.
It's been like this for years, CCP added the can flipping aggro system to appease people like yourself.
I've been the victim of theives and pirates many times myself and as anoying as it is they make this game interesting, without them EVE would be one nonotomous, boring grind.
There are plenty of other games out there that put strict control on what players can/can't do, if you don't like a challenge you and your friends would be better off elsewhere.
_______________________________________
[a cool picture here] |
Cipher Jones
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Posted - 2010.01.31 14:58:00 -
[52]
Quote:
But any way... I'm still for not allowing can flipping in high sec without consequnce...
Maybe someone didn't explain the mechanics of the game to you but the consequence for flipping a can is being flagged for combat.
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 15:18:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dr Karsun
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Dr Karsun
I'm still for not allowing can flipping in high sec without consequnce.
Why would they allow that all of a sudden?
Well, naturally the ninjas say that 'omng the risk is over-the-edge-high!' but we all know those are pure trolls. There is no chance a pve ship can win with even a 1 class lower pvp ship. The consequences that are now are 100% virtual.
Sure, but the fact remains: can flipping has consequences. If the players choose to waive those consequences for the benefit of the flipper, then that's his choice and not a problem with the game. It also means he has absolutely no reason to complain: if he didn't like the choice he made, maybe he shouldn't have made it. It's about as EVE as things get: it's entirely your choice what to do, and removing your ability to make such a choice would be downright stupid.
So my question remains: why would they allow can flipping without consequences all of a sudden? Just because the players choose to allow it doesn't mean that they would or should suddenly hard-code it into the game.
Quote:
Can flipping should be allowed, sure, but taking the stuff back from it shouldn't work backwards, it should not give killright to the griefer.
Taking things back is the same thing as stealing… It doesn't work backwards, it simply works exactly the same for everyone. And again, it's the (supposed) victim's own choice whether to give the canflipper the opportunity. It also doesn't give anyone "kill rights" beyond what they would have in any other response to the same action.
The guy is already a thief, and you can choose to engage him.
Choose to become a thief yourself, and you (most likely) choose to engage him.
Quote:
The can flipping and ninjas only do bad to the game, it causes people who start to quit fast, because they can't earn money, they get killed don't know for what because the can flipping rule is against all known logic.
It does plenty good because it introduces some much needed danger into highsec. It does in no way keep people from earn money, and if it causes people to get killed, it's because those people ignored the very clear and visible warnings given that they were making themselves legitimate targets.
Quote:
And NO the rule 'Fly only something you can afford to lose' does not apply here, because a few week old noob, first time playing noob, has nothing more than a cruiser, he can't afford to lose it.
…so he's flying something he can't afford to lose. So how does the rule not apply?
yyy
tIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡`
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.v
y Karath Piki |
Dr Karsun
Gallente
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 16:14:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tippia
it's entirely your choice what to do, and removing your ability to make such a choice would be downright stupid.
But the consequence should be logical... I don't know of a law system that would say that taking back your property is a crime... While shooting someone for stealing and then taking it back - that's something completely different - most legal systems would say that it's not allowed... So why does can flipping work against most known to man logic?
Originally by: Tippia
Taking things back is the same thing as stealing` It doesn't work backwards, it simply works exactly the same for everyone. And again, it's the (supposed) victim's own choice whether to give the canflipper the opportunity. It also doesn't give anyone "kill rights" beyond what they would have in any other response to the same action.
Again - it's not considered STEALING according to the rules of any known legal logic. If EVE had a nice court system - it could be worked out there (And I'd personally love eve to have a court system). Especially if it's left back there. You have to differ two terms 'ownership' and 'posession'. The first one doesn't change if someone steals an item from you. The second one does. That's why you can make a suit for 'restoring posession', not restoring ownership, because you own it any way... So WHY is it like that, that when you take back something you OWN that is next to you just because someone touched it and dumped it later? There is again absolutely no logic there.
Originally by: Tippia
The guy is already a thief, and you can choose to engage him.
Choose to become a thief yourself, and you (most likely) choose to engage him.
Again, it should give kill rights to EVERYONE against a thief, not only the person and the corp. If the police doesn't care (in eve - doesn't exist) it should work like that, that anyone can shoot the thief. Even in the real world you can shoot the thief if you see him breaking into your neighbours house... So why not here? Criminal flagging for everyone, not only the one who has been stolen from.
Originally by: Tippia
It does plenty good because it introduces some much needed danger into highsec. It does in no way keep people from earn money, and if it causes people to get killed, it's because those people ignored the very clear and visible warnings given that they were making themselves legitimate targets.
Now... You mean danger to the agressor? WHERE? I don't see any danger for the thief - he is free to steal, he can perfectly efficiently prepare his ship to hunt down the one he's stealing from, take his buddies cloacked and wait. Helping a thief is generally considered a crime... Not in eve... Again - the only person who gets kill right for that is the one stolen from... As if it helped at all. And the helpers can DOCK because they did not agress anyone right, they just repped him... it only brings danger to frustrated pilots who aren't aware of how stupidly and illogically the system is built, declyning rules of the capitalist system for the communist system by saying that 'ownership' does not exist and is not a right at all. It only rotates around posession, which is, naturally in my personal opinion, flattening the game like driving over a frog.
I see your point, yes, that the system WORKS as it was created, sure. But the base conditions of the system are a mistake. Declyning ownership rights entirely is stripping a lot of from the game mechanics.
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 17:28:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dr Karsun
But the consequence should be logical... I don't know of a law system that would say that taking back your property is a crime.
In the real world, you mean? It's a crime around here (roughly corresponding to "criminal conversion"). I suspect it's the same in quite a lot of places. Just because you think it is yours doesn't mean it is, and it's not up to you to decide that it is – that's for the legal system to decide. If you think it's yours, you report a theft and let the authorities determine if this is the case or not – if you just take it without permission, you're a thief, no matter how much you claim it's yours to begin with (and that's all you're doing: you're just saying it is… and just saying it is doesn't make it so).
Quote:
So WHY is it like that, that when you take back something you OWN that is next to you just because someone touched it and dumped it later?
Because you don't own it any more.
Quote:
Again, it should give kill rights to EVERYONE against a thief, not only the person and the corp. […] Even in the real world you can shoot the thief if you see him breaking into your neighbours house... So why not here? Criminal flagging for everyone, not only the one who has been stolen from.
For one, no, you're not allowed to do that "even in the real world." You'll be up for so many different charges it'll make your head spin. For the other, you do realise that giving non-concord GCC would work in the canflipper's favour, don't you? 
Quote:
Now... You mean danger to the agressor? WHERE? I don't see any danger for the thief - he is free to steal, he can perfectly efficiently prepare his ship to hunt down the one he's stealing from, take his buddies cloacked and wait.
No, I mean for people just milling about doing the standard highsec things because they feel it's safer to do them in highsec. The mere fact that they think so is what makes it a good thing that can flipping exists.
As for the danger to the can flipper, it's with the victim. I've said it before and I'll keep repeating it until it sticks: just because the victim chooses not to hunt the thief down doesn't mean that there is no danger. The victim just chooses to let the thief free. If the victim chose to, he could bring the hammer down – hard – but his choice not to doesn't mean that the danger isn't there. If he wants it to be dangerous to the aggressor, he shouldn't waive the inherent danger, nor should he complain that the danger doesn't exist – if it doesn't exist, it's because he, the victim, didn't want it to be dangerous for the aggressor.
yyy
tIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡`
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.v
y Karath Piki |
Tason Hyena
Minmatar
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.01.31 17:58:00 -
[56]
Problem is all the can flipping does is benefit the thief. The thief can just steal, dock up, and wait out the timer if he can't take reprisal, or steal, dock up, and come out with a big ship if he can. The mechanics may be in place for payback, but they can be easily gamed.
I think that's the problem with much of EVE, people just gaming mechanics to avoid reprisal easily. Station games, canflipping, suicide ganking, spying, alt scouting, neutral RRing-players can just twist mechanics to benefit them with little way to strike back.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 18:47:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Tippia
In the real world, you mean? It's a crime around here (roughly corresponding to "criminal conversion"). I suspect it's the same in quite a lot of places. Just because you think it is yours doesn't mean it is, and it's not up to you to decide that it is { that's for the legal system to decide. If you think it's yours, you report a theft and let the authorities determine if this is the case or not { if you just take it without permission, you're a thief, no matter how much you claim it's yours to begin with (and that's all you're doing: you're just saying it is` and just saying it is doesn't make it so). You actually need to prove that it's yours in order to repossess it.
You are actually wrong here, it doesn't work like that, there is the institution known to most legal system in the world (all european and US I mean) which is called self defense and more importantly 'samopomoc', not sure what's the translation of the word, it's not self defence but 'self aid' rather. It's a situation when there is an obvious law breach and you act when any legal force can't, you are allowed to react in many, many means possible, giving a far wider array of options.
Originally by: Tippia
Because you don't own it any more.
While other things are disputable, here you are obviously wrong. You do OWN it, you just don't POSESS it any more, it's a differance. It's the flawed eve system that changes ownership together with posession. These two terms are far, far different. This differance allows us to use more force against the person while allowing us personally to be protected by the law.
Originally by: Tippia
For one, no, you're not allowed to do that "even in the real world." You'll be up for so many different charges it'll make your head spin. For the other, you do realise that giving non-concord GCC would work in the canflipper's favour, don't you?
It is allowed, even in such primitive (legally) countries like Poland where I live to defend property owned by other people. And I would propose this change ONLY if finally EVE would recognise the differance between mentioned ownership and posession. In that case taking something back would not result in a GCC, while the person who flipped the can in the first place would have a REAL GCC - the count down would be GLOBAL, not a 'one person criminal count down' :) Don't you find it a bit ironic that Global Criminal Countdown give a criminal countdown to 1 or a few people only?
Originally by: Tippia
The victim just chooses to let the thief free.
No, in todays eve the thief is free from definition, you don't let him free, he is free from the start.
Originally by: Tippia
`which means that this lonely thief should be facing an entire corps of very angry people, and that no-one will ever be able to undock to help him because they'll just lose their ships.
The problem here is that it's only 15 minutes. If it was like giving real kill rights, as for popping someone, I'd be perfectly fine with the entire current system. It would realistically give someone a chance to seek vengance on the can flipper with taking a real, pvp-fitted ship, hunting the one pilot threw out entire high sec just to get revenge on the can flipped. It would also solve a great deal of the freighters beeing suicide ganked - there aren't that many people doing it, after shooting a few freighters and looting the remains ( <- this is the important part) ther'd be many, many angry people looking for them threw space. The 15 minutes for revenge is just not realistical for any pve person, in fact... For ANY person. A few weeks is pretty much enough even for a noob to gather a pvp group, they'd rep him and he'd chew on the pirate who would have a worse day and would be stupid enough to fall into the trap.
And by the way - glad to have a conversation on a higher level once in a while, not just 'omg lol no' :) Really appreciated (really).
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Droog 1
Black Rise Inbreds
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Posted - 2010.01.31 18:48:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Droog 1 on 31/01/2010 18:51:14
Grrrr..I know people who left because of... then ccp lose money...poor newbies leave....in real life.....bad for business..will be dead in 1 year..why? why? why?
/shakes fist
Dr Karsun and the op is right and you all are bullies for trying to say different. 
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 19:16:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Dr Karsun
You are actually wrong here, it doesn't work like that,
Actually, it does. The "self aid" notion you speak of is very limited and, at best, allows you to intervene while a crime is being committed. If you, say, find what looks like your stolen bike some time after it went missing, you're not around to steal it back – only to report it found and wait for the authorities to give it back to you.
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While other things are disputable, here you are obviously wrong.
Except, of course, that as you point out, it's the same thing in EVE, so no, not really. As for making a difference between the two, see my sig.
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It is allowed, even in such primitive (legally) countries like Poland where I live to defend property owned by other people.
I highly doubt it, since the attempt to intervene you suggest is not even close to being proportional to the attempted crime. If you're allowed to shoot people willy-nilly (and shooting someone who's merely breaking in to your neighbour's house certainly qualifies as willy-nilly) in Poland, it's because your legal system is primitive, not in spite of it. As for your suggestion, I can already think of four ways to subvert it and leave us right back where we are now…
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Don't you find it a bit ironic that Global Criminal Countdown give a criminal countdown to 1 or a few people only?
That calls for some begging the question action: no I don't for the simple reason that it doesn't – what you're describing is not a GCC.
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No, in todays eve the thief is free from definition, you don't let him free, he is free from the start.
So you're saying that you're not allowed to shoot thieves, then? So how does canflipping even work? No, you're letting him free by choice: by not taking the opportunity to nuke him.
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The problem here is that it's only 15 minutes. If it was like giving real kill rights, as for popping someone, I'd be perfectly fine with the entire current system.
Meh. 15 minutes seems entirely reasonable and adequate for something as trivial as theft. Want more? Just dec him.
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The 15 minutes for revenge is just not realistical for any pve person, in fact... For ANY person.
Sure it is, but it requires some forethought. It requires knowing that the risk exists and preparing for it – something many highsec dwellers simply refuse to do (witness the countless "omgz my T1 hauler got popped" and "omgz salvage thieves!!" whines). It's even more realistic if we're not talking about a PvE person (singular), but about people actually taking advantage of the second M in MMO… another thing the same subset of players often refuse to do.
Again: choice, choice, choice. You choose to let him off. You choose to make it easy for him to escape. You choose to give him a chance to steal to begin with. You choose to remain a victim. Neither of these choices have to be made this way, and removing the ability to make them would only hurt the game.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Dr Karsun
Gallente
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 19:35:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tippia
Actually, it does. The "self aid" notion you speak of is very limited and, at best, allows you to intervene while a crime is being committed. If you, say, find what looks like your stolen bike some time after it went missing, you're not around to steal it back { only to report it found and wait for the authorities to give it back to you.
No, the institution I'm talking about works while you are still at the crime scene, you see the criminal. It is even clearly written that it doesn't work any more IF the thief manages to run away.
Originally by: Tippia
Except, of course, that as you point out, it's the same thing in EVE, so no, not really. As for making a difference between the two, see my sig.
Your sig only says that if you can't defend it... No noob can defend what he has against any player with some experiance even with similar sp... He will nail the noob to the ground and grief him. Does that make the noob not deserve to own a cruiser or frigate?
Originally by: Tippia
I highly doubt it, since the attempt to intervene you suggest is not even close to being proportional to the attempted crime. If you're allowed to shoot people willy-nilly (and shooting someone who's merely breaking in to your neighbour's house certainly qualifies as willy-nilly) in Poland, it's because your legal system is primitive, not in spite of it. As for your suggestion, I can already think of four ways to subvert it and leave us right back where we are now`
The law is quite old really. It's been there since... The roman times I guess as far as I remember from roman law classes. The thing is that it depends from a situation, but when you see a crime beeing commited, you are allowed to use something called normally 'excessive force' - that includes shooting the person if the person is armed. Naturally in eve a can flipper is practically always armed in a way or another unless he has no offensive modules. So you would be able to shoot such a thief breaking into your neighbours car our house. That is actually a sign of really well written law that does not promote criminals, but promotes free people when the police can't get there... And the police usually won't get there fast enough to counter the crime.
Originally by: Tippia
That calls for some begging the question action: no I don't for the simple reason that it doesn't { what you're describing is not a GCC.
In that case I'm sorry, it must be a name used by many people. If it's no called like that, my bad, sorry. :) You have me here. But how come if a crime is commited in front of your eyes you aren't allowed to help the person? It seems at least strange...
Originally by: Tippia
So you're saying that you're not allowed to shoot thieves, then? So how does canflipping even work? No, you're letting him free by choice: by not taking the opportunity to nuke him.
No, I'm just saying that the ability gives only a purely virtual ability to punish the criminal. It doesn't really give you any opportunity to hit on someone, the flipper will always be superior to you when he flips the can. If you'r a miner - because you have no offensive capabilities (if you'r not hunting flippers but really mining as well and as much as possible). If you'r running missions, it's usually level 4, so you have a battleship... Again - no chance to catch the tech two frig or hac. And the 15 minutes won't be enough to reship and come get the guy because 1st - he'll be gone, or 2nd - all your stuff will be gone and he'll be safely docked with it. It's as if I told you that I allow you to kick me in the face... But you only have 15 minutes for it... Start counting from... Now. I guess even if you'd want to, you wouldn't be able to get here so fast. And even more! Although I gave you permission to hit me, even if you got here, I've got a black belt in karate... So you'd hit me first, just for the formality, and then I'd snap your neck... That's not really how the system should work, right?
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