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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.01.31 10:38:00 -
[1]
Dear Shareholders,
it's with great excitement for our future prospects that I announce the formation of a new holding corporation for AATP: AATP Holdings [AATPH]. This corporation will be responsible for dividend distribution.
Reasons
The reasons for the creation of the holding corporation and the subsequent share swap are twofold:
- To prevent dividends from being deposited into dormant or banned accounts.
- To utilise the dividends from these accounts to grow the business.
Share Swap Process
A share swap scheme to change existing AATP shares into the new AATPH shares has begun and will continue until all shares haven been swapped out. To swap your shares over, initiate a conversation with Ray McCormack in-game, transfer your shares over only after being given the go-ahead. Your new shares will then be transferred to you.
It is important that you DO NOT send shares without explicitly being told to do so.
Should you not be able to contact Ray McCormack directly due to time zone differences, please send him an in-game EVEmail and alternative arrangements will be made for you.
- Contact Ray McCormack.
- Do not send shares until explicitly told to.
- Transfer your AATP shares to Ray McCormack (or another nominated character) only after being instructed to.
- Your new AATPH shares will then be transferred to you.
NB: AATP and its employees will not be held responsible if these procedures are not adhered to.
Missed Dividends
Should your swap occur after a dividend cycle(s), your right to those missed dividends will still exist and they will be paid out to you in full. If AATP, for whatever reason, is unable to meet this obligation immediately, they will be paid out of dividend funds at the next cycle. If this still cannot satisfy the payment of missed dividends, a loan will be obtained from one of the financial entities within EVE. Failure to obtain such a loan will lead to the liquidation of current and then fixed assets to accommodate this obligation.
- Missed dividends are still rightfully yours.
- They will be paid out to you during the share swap process.
- Should AATP be unable to meet this obligation:
- They will be paid from proceeds earmarked for distribution at the next cycle.
- A loan will be obtained.
- Assets will be liquidated.
Withheld Dividends
Any dividends from unclaimed shares will be kept in the AATP wallet. Use of these funds to cover operational shortfalls will be restricted to no more than one month's profit. Use of these funds to purchase additional fixed assets will be restricted to no more than 50% of the available fund. Use of the additional 50% to procure fixed assets will be subject to the financial approval by AATP employees and tentative acceptance of a loan with one of the financial entities in EVE.
- Dividends from unclaimed shares kept in AATP wallet.
- Use of funds for operational processes restricted to an amount equal to one month's profit.
- Use of funds for fixed asset procurement restricted to 50% of the fund.
- Use of the additional 50% subject to financial approval by employees and the tentative acceptance of a loan.
Estimate of Unclaimed Shares
Utilising an unfounded, untested method of measuring atrophy, AATP estimates that at least 2.1m shares could remain unclaimed indefinitely, 22% of the 9.5m distributed shares. At current dividend amounts that would result in a 1.1b monthly increase for the withheld dividend fund.
Future Share Swaps
The potential exists for new holding corporations to be created in the future, for much the same reasons as this one. No definite interval between swaps has been set yet, most will be done opportunistically when there appears to be a measured benefit for the corporation.
Regards Ray McCormack CEO - AATP
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.01.31 10:49:00 -
[2]
You will be able to swap shares out from tomorrow evening once the vote in the holding corporation goes through to create a further 9.499m shares.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:18:00 -
[3]
Spring cleaning? - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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herot
Fortunis - Redux
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Posted - 2010.01.31 11:58:00 -
[4]
Will you create a ATTPHH next year?
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.01 16:54:00 -
[5]
I am online now and available for share transfers.
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: herot Will you create a ATTPHH next year?
This is why some people use a ledger system for shares, you have more control.
I know early on with my bond offering one person had their bonds canceled. My private offering had a "Don't get kicked out of Goonswarm" clause. One guy did.
Personally, I would put a clause in this exchange that your reserve the right to do this again in xyz many months.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.01 19:49:00 -
[7]
Why would I need a clause for something I can just go ahead and do anyway?
443,543 shares swapped this evening; 9,056,457 outstanding.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.02.01 20:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Why would I need a clause for something I can just go ahead and do anyway?
Oh the pain!
To make your actions legitimate, perhaps?
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Proton Power
Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk
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Posted - 2010.02.01 20:34:00 -
[9]
I am guessing Ray and TS talked about this a month back when TS raised this question up on the forums. (This is a guess).
Anyway, when TS brought it up, I mentioned that I was against this do to people not realizing/noticing/being afk would not get isk they are entitled to.
Now IMO Ray has come up with a good way around this argument, lets say I was afk right now, and would be for 4 months. When I get back, long as I know to do so, I can trade my shares in for his new ones, still get all dividends that should have been paid to me. I think that is fair.
--
The bad part of this is, only those that realize you did this will know to contact you and trade the shares. I am not sure if you created some sort of vote or not to inform your share holders of this, but at the least some sort of vote should be created to inform the share holders, not to say yes or no, just so they get informed.
The other thing I would ask to be done would be that in 4-6mths time you send out eve mails to those that have not claimed the shares back so that again they are aware of what was done if they just didnt notice this for some reason.
--
I understand not having this as a "Clause" in older IPO's that have been running for a long time now, the fact remains nobody really thought about it back then. But now that IPO's are growing older, it may be a good thing for many of them to do, and for new ones to make sure they include this "Clause" in there plan.
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Azrel
Kyoha Shinto
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Posted - 2010.02.01 20:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Why would I need a clause for something I can just go ahead and do anyway?
443,543 shares swapped this evening; 9,056,457 outstanding.
I have a question, I maybe missed something, I maybe getting this messed up. But AATP had only 1 million shares, but the new holding company has 9.5 million surely this is going to affect the dividends negatively given your swapping 1 share in AATP for 1 in AATPH them paying dividends from there?
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Erialor Godsent
Gallente Federal Navy Support Divison
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Posted - 2010.02.01 20:53:00 -
[11]
I'm pretty sure the reoprts I've seen said that AATP had/has 9.500.000 shares --
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Azrel
Kyoha Shinto
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Posted - 2010.02.01 21:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Erialor Godsent I'm pretty sure the reoprts I've seen said that AATP had/has 9.500.000 shares
Well if you look at the shares listed on the attributes tab for AATP Corp from show info, it lists it as 1 million.
Pretty sure my eye sight hasn't failed yet...
Show Info for AATP
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CornerStoner
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Posted - 2010.02.01 21:08:00 -
[13]
Noted. Will contact as soonas I see you.
Got the mail from EMFIhauler1. Does that mean that EMFI shares are worth something now? |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2010.02.01 21:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Azrel
Originally by: Erialor Godsent I'm pretty sure the reoprts I've seen said that AATP had/has 9.500.000 shares
Well if you look at the shares listed on the attributes tab for AATP Corp from show info, it lists it as 1 million.
Pretty sure my eye sight hasn't failed yet...
Show Info for AATP
The show info attribute doesn't show the TOTAL amount of shares. It shows the amount of shares created in the last share creation vote.
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Erialor Godsent
Gallente Federal Navy Support Divison
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Posted - 2010.02.01 21:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Erialor Godsent on 01/02/2010 21:10:25 Cba to check other corps - but maybe that's some sort of ingame cap on the show info?
The shareholder-reports here says 9.500.000 shares.
Or maybe someone posting above me knows the correct answer ;) --
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Azrel
Kyoha Shinto
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Posted - 2010.02.01 21:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
The show info attribute doesn't show the TOTAL amount of shares. It shows the amount of shares created in the last share creation vote.
Ah that explains it.
At least I don't need to book a opticians appointment now..
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.02.02 01:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Why would I need a clause for something I can just go ahead and do anyway?
Because then you don't get a reputation for being a *******?
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2010.02.02 01:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Ray McCormack Why would I need a clause for something I can just go ahead and do anyway?
Because then you don't get a reputation for being a [bleep]?
Every offering could have a vague blanket clause that says something like 'management will change the terms as appropriate to address emergent synergies and other businessspeak words, blah, blah, blah...' but it seems silly to try (probably in vain anyhow) to anticipate all possible future circumstances and build specific terms for each contingency into all initial terms for all offerings.
Overall, the mechanism described in the OP seems well-reasoned, preserving the equitable rights of all shareholders, even if they don't notice the share swap for a while for whatever reason (absence, distraction, alcohol-induced-blindness), while at the same time gathering some empirical data about ongoing account/Pilot/investor activity rates and attrition.
One might suggest that shareholder approval should be sought for any changes to the basic terms of their participation in a venture, but here I don't see any impact on shareholder value that might convince any shareholder to vote 'no', so I'd say the breach (if any) is more technical than substantive.
I hope the attrition information will be made available on a regular basis, both so we can assess the reality against Ray McCormack's estimate, and so that it might help other business managers formulate their own practices. á á
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 04:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Proton Power I think that is fair.
It is also commonsensical, as whilst you are away your ISK can be used it grow your investment.
Originally by: Proton Power I am not sure if you created some sort of vote or not to inform your share holders of this
There was a vote, and there will be an AATP vote issued every dividend cycle to remind shareholders to exchange shares.
Originally by: Thoraemond I hope the attrition information will be made available on a regular basis
I will continue to update the exchanged and outstanding in this thread for the next month, and then it will become a permanent item in the Shareholder report going forward.
Quote: share bug
Yeah, it doesn't display correctly, but there are 9.5m shares.
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 05:21:00 -
[20]
After the share swap is done can I have 1 share of AATP for collection purposes? ---------------------------------
Ship Purchase Program
Killmail Service discontinued by request. |
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 16:31:00 -
[21]
Online again to exchange shares.
I've replied to all EVEMails, if you didn't receive a reply it's because I don't like you or you have CSPA charges enabled (and I'm not made of money. Well, I am, but it's the principle).
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Proton Power
Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk
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Posted - 2010.02.02 17:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Proton Power I think that is fair.
It is also commonsensical, as whilst you are away your ISK can be used it grow your investment.
Originally by: Proton Power I am not sure if you created some sort of vote or not to inform your share holders of this
There was a vote, and there will be an AATP vote issued every dividend cycle to remind shareholders to exchange shares.
Originally by: Thoraemond I hope the attrition information will be made available on a regular basis
I will continue to update the exchanged and outstanding in this thread for the next month, and then it will become a permanent item in the Shareholder report going forward.
Quote: share bug
Yeah, it doesn't display correctly, but there are 9.5m shares.
Not that you need my approval but looks good with these additional aspects. Can understand the need for the share swap.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 19:32:00 -
[23]
There's a very annoying bug with the share transfer window that I'd forgotten about.
You enter the number of shares, type in the person's name, skip the Search button and hit Okay. If they have a name that needs confirmation a character selection window pops up. You select the correct character, and then if you press Okay again (there's a bit of lag that allows you to do so) the share transfer will go through twice.
The problem is exacerbated from the lag of taking screenshots at the same time.
Did that twice tonight, first person has sent the extra shares back and I don't see a problem getting the extra shares back from the second person.
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Proton Power
Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk
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Posted - 2010.02.02 19:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ray McCormack There's a very annoying bug with the share transfer window that I'd forgotten about.
You enter the number of shares, type in the person's name, skip the Search button and hit Okay. If they have a name that needs confirmation a character selection window pops up. You select the correct character, and then if you press Okay again (there's a bit of lag that allows you to do so) the share transfer will go through twice.
The problem is exacerbated from the lag of taking screenshots at the same time.
Did that twice tonight, first person has sent the extra shares back and I don't see a problem getting the extra shares back from the second person.
Did this with LYII as well, bit different story, Someone's names started with a zero not O. But just my luck both had characters so sent a few free shares out. Was not worth the hassle of re-doing shares for 10mil isk.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 20:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ray McCormack 443,543 shares swapped this evening; 9,056,457 outstanding.
1,925,143 shares exchanged this evening; 2,368,686 in total; 7,131,314 outstanding.
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Erfnam
Offworld Miners and Fabricators Guild Rising Orbit Free Trade League
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Posted - 2010.02.03 17:44:00 -
[26]
One major problem with share swapping is that if the venture has BPOs locked for collateral, then this collateral is removed in a non-obvious way. Opens the door for easier scamming. -- I'm looking to join a corp. Message me in game if you want a skilled and trustworthy trader/researcher/manufacturer.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.06 12:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ray McCormack 1,925,143 shares exchanged this evening; 2,368,686 in total; 7,131,314 outstanding.
3,191,107 shares swapped to date; 6,308,893 outstanding.
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XEONIK
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Posted - 2010.02.09 21:56:00 -
[28]
I know I owned some ATTP thru RESX at some point with my char XEONIK, but am unsure if I ended up selling them. If I still own them they are still locked away in RESX, what will happen to any shares still held by RESX?
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.10 05:02:00 -
[29]
RESX has returned all shares to depositors.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.02.24 09:59:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Ray McCormack 1,925,143 shares exchanged this evening; 2,368,686 in total; 7,131,314 outstanding.
3,191,107 shares swapped to date; 6,308,893 outstanding.
Is this still the current state of play? If so, you have effectively written off 2/3 of the shares in your operation. That is quite a massive theft. Not quite up there with your EBANK plan but pretty close. Your scamming must put you close to the top in EVE history now. Congratulations!
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Erialor Godsent
Gallente Federal Navy Support Divison
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Posted - 2010.02.24 10:37:00 -
[31]
Quote: Missed Dividends
Should your swap occur after a dividend cycle(s), your right to those missed dividends will still exist and they will be paid out to you in full. If AATP, for whatever reason, is unable to meet this obligation immediately, they will be paid out of dividend funds at the next cycle. If this still cannot satisfy the payment of missed dividends, a loan will be obtained from one of the financial entities within EVE. Failure to obtain such a loan will lead to the liquidation of current and then fixed assets to accommodate this obligation.
òMissed dividends are still rightfully yours. òThey will be paid out to you during the share swap process. òShould AATP be unable to meet this obligation: ◦They will be paid from proceeds earmarked for distribution at the next cycle. ◦A loan will be obtained. ◦Assets will be liquidated.
Tbh I don't see the problem - should some AATP-shareholders return later to want to swap their shares they're entitled to any missed dividends... --
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.02.24 11:04:00 -
[32]
Edited by: RAW23 on 24/02/2010 11:12:12
Originally by: Erialor Godsent
Tbh I don't see the problem - should some AATP-shareholders return later to want to swap their shares they're entitled to any missed dividends...
Blatant cash grab predicated on the hope/assumption that they won't come back. And if they do, why should they have to jump through hoops to get the isk that should be sitting in their account waiting for them? Personally, I would pay not to have to interact with Ray .
The other issue is that investors now assume an extra dose of uncompensated risk. What happens if AATP goes belly up? Not only will investors have lost their initial stake, they will also lose anything that Ray has held on to in the meantime. It's pretty simple - Ray is taking other people's money without their permission and using and risking it for his own profit. Nothing complex here, except the window dressing that is being used to deflect attention from this rather subtle scam.
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Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
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Posted - 2010.02.24 13:32:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ray McCormack RESX has returned all shares to depositors.
Confirming that I have received all the shares I had on RESX.
However I am still waiting on the return of all the ISK I had in RESX. --
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.02.24 18:24:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ray McCormack 3,191,107 shares swapped to date; 6,308,893 outstanding.
4,121,472 shares exchanged so far; 5,378,528 remaining.
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Kochino Dia
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Posted - 2010.02.28 23:13:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kochino Dia on 28/02/2010 23:16:18 I got 10,000 share in the company please contact me for the swap process
jorive ( Tahino)
E-mail to "Tahino" for contact
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MindDragon
Caldari Celtic Infusion Army
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Posted - 2010.05.08 17:04:00 -
[36]
I know this is an ancient topic but I just game back to game and I got the notice. Is this still active? I have shares.
MD ------ This space for rent. |
Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.08 19:28:00 -
[37]
Originally by: MindDragon I know this is an ancient topic but I just game back to game and I got the notice. Is this still active? I have shares.
It most definitely is, and will be forever. Please convo me to organise the exchange.
Originally by: RAW23 Edit - On reflection, scam is probably the wrong word as this isn't a con trick. Fraud seems more appropriate.
And yet you're still willing to invest at an exorbitant rate in a corporation committing so-called 'fraud'? Hypocrite.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.08 19:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23 Edit - On reflection, scam is probably the wrong word as this isn't a con trick. Fraud seems more appropriate.
And yet you're still willing to invest at an exorbitant rate in a corporation committing so-called 'fraud'? Hypocrite.
Yes - my massive stake worth 30000isk ...
Now, since this hypocrite is a shareholder, will you explain how you reached the goodwill valuation that appears on our books? I'd like to know if the assets of mine that you manage are correctly valued.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.08 19:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: RAW23 Now, since this hypocrite is a shareholder, will you explain how you reached the goodwill valuation that appears on our books? I'd like to know if the assets of mine that you manage are correctly valued.
And as explained before, since you're too ****ing dumb to notice the first time, this question has been asked and answered before. It's even linked in the latest announcement in a reply to a comment from your bum chum.
Can you see now?
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.08 19:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23 Now, since this hypocrite is a shareholder, will you explain how you reached the goodwill valuation that appears on our books? I'd like to know if the assets of mine that you manage are correctly valued.
And as explained before, since you're too ****ing dumb to notice the first time, this question has been asked and answered before. It's even linked in the latest announcement in a reply to a comment from your bum chum.
Can you see now?
Thank you for finally replying to me in a way that answers my question (as opposed to that of my "bum chum" (homophobia issues / latency?)). It only took 6 or so weeks and the purchase of a share. How stupid of me to have not realised that "unrealised goodwill" means the value of a character! It's so ... so ... obvious?
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.08 20:00:00 -
[41]
Originally by: RAW23 It's so ... so ... obvious?
Of course not. But did you expect otherwise? The result is of your own making, it has nothing to do with you being a shareholder.
And yes, I do think you're a butt pirate. Nothing personal, just an opinion.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.08 20:16:00 -
[42]
Edited by: RAW23 on 08/05/2010 20:20:31
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23 It's so ... so ... obvious?
Of course not. But did you expect otherwise? The result is of your own making, it has nothing to do with you being a shareholder.
And yes, I do think you're a butt pirate. Nothing personal, just an opinion.
Of course the result is of my own making. I dared to ask a question of the mighty RAY! We, puny mortals that we are, should never question the RAY. For he is wrathful and will cast aspersions upon our sexuality. He tolerateth not the sin of homosexuality and useth it as an insult against those who do not weep and tremble in awe at his radiant presence. "Ten times", he sayeth, "shalt thou ask me. And ten times shall I turn my face from you, for you are not worthy of hearing my words, nay, nor of reading my posts. But on the Nth time of asking I shall show my mercy and lead you unto the answer, for the ways of thy Lord are strange and can be comprehended not by the profane."
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.05.08 20:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ray McCormack stuff
Dude, maybe you'd like to take a few steps back and think twice about the language you're using (and the worldview implied by it).
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.08 20:33:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton I understand we are on the internetz but that's no excuse to utter discriminatory bull**** like your statements; I had hoped most civilized societies had gotten past that point for at least 40 years or so...
I don't know what PC gone crazy land you live in, but you don't think it possible that I myself might be a homosexual and that raw's comments about my latent homophobe nature might be accurate?
Anyway, you're clearly in need of some (butt) lovin'. Fhagg.
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CCP Shadow
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.08 20:42:00 -
[45]
Off-topic posts dealing with sexual orientation have been removed. Please keep this discussion on-topic.
Thanks.
-- Shadow
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MindDragon
Caldari Celtic Infusion Army
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Posted - 2010.05.09 06:50:00 -
[46]
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23 Edit - On reflection, scam is probably the wrong word as this isn't a con trick. Fraud seems more appropriate.
And yet you're still willing to invest at an exorbitant rate in a corporation committing so-called 'fraud'? Hypocrite.
Yes - my massive stake worth 30000isk ...
Now, since this hypocrite is a shareholder, will you explain how you reached the goodwill valuation that appears on our books? I'd like to know if the assets of mine that you manage are correctly valued.
I have no idea what is going on there. I'm still curious what happened to AATP over the years. I see by the parent post that past dividends will be reissued upon stock swap. I'd be curious to see what happens. As long as they do what they promised, I'm okay with it.
MD ------ This space for rent. |
Power Sauce
Kenzzoku
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Posted - 2010.05.09 08:24:00 -
[47]
Originally by: MindDragon I don't mind scams and fraud so long as I receive the isk.
Ricdic often said the same thing.
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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
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Posted - 2010.05.09 22:28:00 -
[48]
That's interesting; a post discussing Ray's fraud was deleted.
It appears that we are not allowed to discuss scamming by share swaps.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.10 05:36:00 -
[49]
Yeah, I also noticed that, not sure why it went missing; it honestly doesn't bother me, people are free to run their mouths off spilling their worthless opinions on the matter.
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Power Sauce
Kenzzoku
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Posted - 2010.05.10 09:48:00 -
[50]
Instead of trying to marginalise people's opinions; perhaps you could provide a discussion of why you keep increasing goodwill to bump up the supposed value of the shares.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.10 11:07:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Power Sauce Edited by: Power Sauce on 10/05/2010 10:11:02 Instead of trying to marginalise people's opinions, perhaps you could provide a discussion of why you keep increasing goodwill to bump up the supposed value of the shares.
What happens to current investors when you decide to shut them out?
To be fair, Ray did answer the goodwill question, albeit indirectly and on the 9th or 10th time of asking (I think he just likes the attention tbh; can't think of any other reason for withholding such inconsequential information). Unfortunately, his answer, or his directions to an answer, were deleted along with his crassly homophobic schoolyard comments aimed at myself and Mme Pinkerton. Basically, for some completely obscure reason, he has decided to give the value of of a character owned by AATP as "Unrealised goodwill". And he ain't gonna change it just because it is grossly misleading and, in fact, just plain wrong. Because to correct an error would be to give in and Ray doesn't give in, even when he acknowledges the senselessness of his own decisions. That's how brave and determined our lad is!
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.10 16:42:00 -
[52]
Originally by: RAW23 I think he just likes the attention tbh;
And yet you're still here, giving it to me (hopefully in more ways than one). Who's the winner now? Yeah baby, you are!
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.10 17:29:00 -
[53]
Edited by: RAW23 on 10/05/2010 17:29:14
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23 I think he just likes the attention tbh;
And yet you're still here, giving it to me (hopefully in more ways than one). Who's the winner now? Yeah baby, you are!
Consider it an act of charity, like visiting an old peoples' home or a burns ward. We both get to feel good.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.10 17:40:00 -
[54]
Originally by: RAW23 Consider it
I'll consider it anyway you want me to, gorgeous.
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Power Sauce
Kenzzoku
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Posted - 2010.05.10 18:58:00 -
[55]
Goodwill is something you write off when you purchase a company. If the character was ever sold you'd acknowledge it as an extraordinary profit at the time. Especially when the character will never be sold and nor the shareholders realise the profit.
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Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.05.11 14:55:00 -
[56]
I have 100 AATP shares. ( Yes only 100. ) I want to swap them. I've previously made contact to you, but never been responded. |
Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.11 15:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Xylopia I've previously made contact to you, but never been responded.
You probably have CSPA charges enabled, and therefore would not have received a response from me. To initiate the transfer, simply start a conversation with me in-game.
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2010.05.11 18:15:00 -
[58]
I have a question regarding the discussion on the ethical implications of withholding dividends.
I believe the points brought up by those who question this practice have merit, although personally, I'm not sure I'd call it fraud.
But I'm more interested in Ray's view of this.
Obviously you think withholding dividends is the best call, but do you recognize the increased risk taken on by those who do not receive dividends and think its acceptable/minimal or do you see no added risk at all?
i.e. Do you view this as the best possible solution or a perfect solution?
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Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.05.12 01:09:00 -
[59]
My bad. I've set my CSPA to 0. |
Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.12 05:32:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex i.e. Do you view this as the best possible solution or a perfect solution?
Depends, what problem do you think we're trying to solve?
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2010.05.12 16:36:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Depends, what problem do you think we're trying to solve?
I don't know if I'd describe it as a problem, but I'm under the impression you were trying to figure out what was the most efficient way to handle "idle isk."
And I wanted to know if your view is that non-active shareholders take on increased risk with withheld dividends but are fairly compensated for it, or if you think it is risk free?
Just trying to clarify the debate. It would make no sense to try and convince you of increased risks if you already agree, and it wouldn't make sense to argue the level of compensation when you see no need of it in the first place.
I realize there is not a lot of debate about this, but thats not surprising. Those that are paying attention are likely to benefit from this and so are not likely to argue, and those that could be negatively effected are those that are "in-active".
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.13 05:47:00 -
[62]
The additional risk they assume is negligible and the benefit received from growing the business with their idle dividends is compensation enough.
With regards to your statement about the volume of debate on the matter; I would encourage all past, present and future shareholders to assume the same process will apply to them sometime in the future and adopt a stance on the issue accordingly.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.13 09:43:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Ray McCormack The additional risk they assume is negligible and the benefit received from growing the business with their idle dividends is compensation enough.
Could you explain why the risk is negligible? An increase from zero risk to some risk sounds pretty substantial to me. Especially when the person holding the isk has a documented history of changing terms and conditions without consultation and of denying people access to their money when it is inconvenient for his vision of how a business should develop.
How have you quantified the adequacy of the compensation? I'm guessing that you haven't and are simply asserting whatever is most convenient to you but I would really like to see whether there is any substance behind your claim. Obviously, you haven't consulted the owners of the money on what compensation they think would be adequate but have you carried out any other exercise to determine the correct level of compensation? Or does it just happen to fall at the exact but as yet unknown point of additional future earnings? Do you think that your shareholders would find this to be sufficient compensation and do you care one way or another?
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.13 14:30:00 -
[64]
Originally by: RAW23 An increase from zero risk
There is never zero risk.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.13 15:06:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Edited by: Ray McCormack on 13/05/2010 14:38:22
Originally by: RAW23 An increase from zero risk
There is never zero risk.
Edit: And just to allay your claims that I'm avoiding the issues you're raising, just look at the content and tone of your posts in this thread and ask yourself if you seriously expect me to address your concerns in any manner of civility. It's clear what your intention is in most of your engagements with me, I have no interest in entering into a long-winded debate with someone so one-sided in their opinion of me. I'm really not that stupid.
Having the isk sitting in their own wallets is what I would call zero risk (excepting the possibility of hacking).
As to the tone, you have never replied to any of my posts in any thread with even a modi****of civility, nor to those of any other poster who has offered any criticisms of your decisions, nor indeed to most posters who have asked for nothing more than clarification. Whilst I may not have remained as polite as I would like I can gladly say I have never stooped to the depths that you have, both in this thread and elsewhere (example). At least you having a whinge about tone shows you have a sense of humour (or a staggering lack of self awareness - take your pick).
So, those questions I asked that you didn't respond to (civilly or otherwise) ...
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2010.05.13 17:49:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ray McCormack The additional risk they assume is negligible and the benefit received from growing the business with their idle dividends is compensation enough.
Obviously, opinions on levels of risk and compensation are subjective. Given that, I would disagree with the additional assumed being negligible. If in 12 months from now, something unfortunate were to happen, active investors lose 1 dividend payment while inactive investors lose ALL of it.
But personally, if I were an investor, I think I would agree that the compensation for this additional risk is adequate. What doesn't sit well with me however, is all the other investors receiving "something for nothing" from this arrangement. The risks are borne entirely upon the inactive investors, but the rewards are shared by all. I think some small additional compensation could still provide a win-win scenario for all.
If you were to pay a low interest rate on the funds "borrowed" from the inactive dividends, say 1%, your corporation still benefits from a cheap source of financing (I assume 1% is lower than you can receive elsewhere) which benefits ALL shareholders assuming you can earn more than 1% on those funds, and the inactive investors earn slightly more by taking on slightly more risk. The lower than market interest rate could be justified as a reinvestment management fee.
I'm not suggesting paying 1% on ALL withheld dividends, just the amount that is withdrawn and re-invested into the corp. You will be tracking these amounts anyways, so tracking interest wouldn't be that much additional work.
I realize this all may seem trivial, but as it stands it appears like "free money" for active investors. And "free money" arrangements are poor long-term business arrangements in my opinion.
I think your idea is a clever one and a very efficient use of funds, and really should be a standard clause for long-term IPOs going forward - your situation is a bit more prickly, however, since it is a change of terms, which can't be approved because of the very nature of the situation you are trying to tackle: inactive investors.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
With regards to your statement about the volume of debate on the matter; I would encourage all past, present and future shareholders to assume the same process will apply to them sometime in the future and adopt a stance on the issue accordingly.
I think this is good advice and hope that people give it some serious consideration.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.13 19:23:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex I'm not suggesting paying 1% on ALL withheld dividends, just the amount that is withdrawn and re-invested into the corp. You will be tracking these amounts anyways, so tracking interest wouldn't be that much additional work.
I like this suggestion, I'll weigh its merits against some numbers and see what the options are.
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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
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Posted - 2010.05.13 23:40:00 -
[68]
If investors accept a free isk clause for inactive investors in ipos then there's nothing anyone can complain about. This is all about killing my entertainment.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.05.14 05:29:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Professor Leech If investors accept a free isk clause for inactive investors in ipos then there's nothing anyone can complain about. This is all about killing my entertainment.
Well, I'll give you some drama back then. Investors have no say in the matter, I alone decide what is best for the business.
Are you not entertained?
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Roger Kiyosaki
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2010.08.05 10:47:00 -
[70]
Erm... I know I've missed this for a while (due to being out there in RL and stuff).
Is the share swap still active? Would like to swap my shares...
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Athias
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Posted - 2010.08.05 12:11:00 -
[71]
You should still be able to swap your shares to the new AATPH shares, and Ray has the missed dividends you havent gotten saved away for you also, if I remember correctly, all you need to do is throw him an evemail.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.08.05 14:59:00 -
[72]
Please convo me to do the exchange.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.08.06 15:04:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex I'm not suggesting paying 1% on ALL withheld dividends, just the amount that is withdrawn and re-invested into the corp. You will be tracking these amounts anyways, so tracking interest wouldn't be that much additional work.
I like this suggestion, I'll weigh its merits against some numbers and see what the options are.
Did you come to any decision on this suggestion, out of interest?
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