Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 27 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 89 post(s) |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1246
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. The CCL have been set up to assist the Community team in talking to players, assisting them with queries and moderating the forums to ensure that EVE related discussions remain on-topic in a relatively calm environment.
So let me talk a bit about what is happening with this team historically, what is happening now and what we expect to happen in the future.
The Past GÇô Formation of the team.
The concept for what the CCL team was outlined in a Dev Blog back in 2011. Our goals at that time were to establish the leadership of the volunteer program and let it grow to service the needs of the EVE forums. During its inception we had several volunteers join and subsequently leave for a variety of reasons, always their own choice. This meant that the program did not grow quite as we expected so we went back to the drawing board.
The Current GÇô Growing pains
Our current Admiral, ISD Eshtir, has a long and established history with the volunteer program. Working with CCP Spitfire, he sent out a call for new volunteers which resulted in an influx of new and eager batch of recruits. Coming on to a large and vocal forum can be somewhat daunting and we expected that there would be growing pains. The volunteers we have are doing this because they have the best interests of EVE at heart. Will they make some mistakes? Sure, I still even do that despite being here almost six years. Should they expect threads calling for their disbandment and summary execution? No, they should not. The CCL is here for the long haul and the Community team will be aiding them to become better moderators and chill bros you want to hang with. We have a series of plans listed below to ensure that happens.
The Future GÇô Posting Nirvana
Our aim is to provide a discussion platform that allows players, volunteers and developers to talk about EVE and how we can make it better, what you like and what you want to see more of in the future. I will be totally candid and tell you that this does not happen when any of these groups becomes abusive and vindictive. That type of discussion only ever results in one or more of those groups becoming more distant and non-communicative. That is not good for you, the players, and it is definitely not what our developers and volunteers want to see happening. So here is our plan for taking the EVE Community team and ISD forward:
GÇóWe have at least one vacant position on the Community team and hope to add more people in the short to medium term. If you are interested in applying, please see this link. GÇóThe Community team will hold regular Skype voice chats with volunteers and address their concerns, assist them with any training they may require and help answer any of their queries GÇóWe will aim to have an ISD Seminar for the CCL at the earliest opportunity. Hopefully this can be sometime in July but may run over into August due to vacations and Alliance Tournament. GÇóWe will provide moderation log access to the Admirals and Captains so that they can fully see what the ISD team are editing/deleting. This access does not compromise any of your personal information or show any warning or ban history. It literally shows the content of deleted posts, edited/original content and who carried that out. GÇóIncrease the volunteer team by a further six people over the coming weeks and provide a stable structure for an easier flow of communication between CCP and the volunteers so that they can get advice on moderation actions if they are required.
These are just some of the first steps we will take to improve the communication process to you. This is a two way street and you also need to be a part of for it to work. This means we will still deal with abusive posts decisively and firmly. If you wish to discuss a hot topic issue we will expect you to do so in a calm and reasonable manner. Duplicate threads will still get locked, threads in the wrong sections will still be moved etc. It is also worth noting that using EVE mail to contact ISD about moderation will result in nothing happening. The correct process is to submit a petition under GÇÿForumsGÇÖ and we will investigate for you.
Our goal at CCP is to provide you all with a fun and vibrant discussion area and we will not stop working to attain that. There will be growing pains and there will be times we drop the ball. This is not deliberate and when we do drop the ball we will aim to correct those mistakes.
Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering.
Thank you for your time.
The EVE Community and CCL teams
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1172
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
cool thanks |
daveo911
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
in before lock? |
Arcturus Archangel
Sons of Michael
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
+1 for effort. CCP doing something right. Hopefully this turn out into something that will make all parties satisfied. Corporations and their Interstellar Kredits are soon parted. |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
680
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thank you for placing this here.
Will update later with more opinion later.
|
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Very nice initiative, guys, keep going with the good work! :thumbsup: |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1589
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Wow, that's nice to see, CCP Navigator. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Ituhata
The Scope Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Reposting my opinion from another thread unedited
Quote: Unfortunately I didn't actually see what happened, but it sounds like a thread was posted, replies were made that devolved into trolling, and the entire thread was locked wholesale without the OP getting an answer. Then a repeating feedback loop was created as subsequent threads were made to get that answer and of course, threads were locked for duplication and/or discussing moderation (first thread locked, continued BZZT! discussing moderation, etc.)
What probably should have happened was the moderators should have taken the time to remove or edit the offensive posts and make a post reminding people to politely stay on topic. Afterwards if the thread continued on course it could be locked wholesale and the forum users would not have much of a leg to stand on if they opposed the action.
I also feel there is a language barrier issue and the 'personal attack' angle of locking or editing posts is, quite frankly, used too liberally. Combined with discussing forum moderation, it seems to be quite an effective way to curb any open criticism whatsoever, which I feel is a bad precedent to set.
Having individuals file petitions which in all likelihood will be ignored individually rather than having a community discussion is alot like Walmart being able to fight discrimination cases on a case by case basis rather than a class action basis. The results are the same, anyway....but that is purely my opinion on the matter.
I thank you CCP Navigator for this thread, as I feel it negates my last paragraph for the most part. I understand the complexity of the issue but I felt it necessary to have a platform to openly voice our concerns on the matter in a generally constructive manner, however criticism must be allowed to some extent if we are to have a legitimate discussion about it.
Also I got a warm and fuzzy feeling, this was well written and I thought it was heartfelt. But then again I get the same feeling sometimes when I read advertisement letters addressed to me.
|
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1833
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Might I suggest a subforum for OOPE in which politics, religion, and all those other forbidden topics are no longer forbidden? This is a community, and sometimes such things are relevant to some members of the community. We'd probably be better off throwing such topics into their own forum than simply locking them and silencing the conversation. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oh hey look, we're having a discourse about the ISD and forum moderation.
Was that so hard? Having forum moderation is great, it streamlines discussion and gets rid of (most) of the badposting/spam. However, the line between moderation and outright censorship is a dangerous one, and sometimes I've seen sincerely legitimate threads, with actual discussion about EVE, be locked for rather odd reasons.
One of the most prominent is seeing word "Jew" edited out,even if the word isn't being used in a negative connotation or with any hatred/anger behind it. If this is offensive to some, or against CCP's forum rules, then so be it, but things like this need to be clearly defined for all parties, and defined in a way that doesn't just seem robotic. (IE: Thread Locked, Generic Reason, Don't Try Contacting Me) |
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1249
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ituhata wrote:Reposting my opinion from another thread unedited Quote: Unfortunately I didn't actually see what happened, but it sounds like a thread was posted, replies were made that devolved into trolling, and the entire thread was locked wholesale without the OP getting an answer. Then a repeating feedback loop was created as subsequent threads were made to get that answer and of course, threads were locked for duplication and/or discussing moderation (first thread locked, continued BZZT! discussing moderation, etc.)
What probably should have happened was the moderators should have taken the time to remove or edit the offensive posts and make a post reminding people to politely stay on topic. Afterwards if the thread continued on course it could be locked wholesale and the forum users would not have much of a leg to stand on if they opposed the action.
I also feel there is a language barrier issue and the 'personal attack' angle of locking or editing posts is, quite frankly, used too liberally. Combined with discussing forum moderation, it seems to be quite an effective way to curb any open criticism whatsoever, which I feel is a bad precedent to set.
Having individuals file petitions which in all likelihood will be ignored individually rather than having a community discussion is alot like Walmart being able to fight discrimination cases on a case by case basis rather than a class action basis. The results are the same, anyway....but that is purely my opinion on the matter.
I thank you CCP Navigator for this thread, as I feel it negates my last paragraph for the most part. I understand the complexity of the issue but I felt it necessary to have a platform to openly voice our concerns on the matter in a generally constructive manner, however criticism must be allowed to some extent if we are to have a legitimate discussion about it. Also I got a warm and fuzzy feeling, this was well written and I thought it was heartfelt. But then again I get the same feeling sometimes when I read advertisement letters addressed to me.
It is heartfelt but your last line did make me chuckle. Thanks CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Holy One
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
204
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Spin. What you want CCP is a closed environment where naysayers and critics can be snuffed out in favour of rabid fanbois.
You want to avoid what has happened the last three years with your terrible expansions - people vocally and vociferously criticising your business decisions ad individuals responsible for them.
You want censorship and control and those two things will only result in a polarisation of game design and false confidence in your feedback quality and bias. Historically the Eve 'community' has been quick and sharp to point out your poor business and game design decisions and has been highly critical at key times in your business direction - which has saved you on several occasions.
The new 'direction' is merely going to result in an extension of the hubris bubble we see historically you like to perpetuate internally. Over time you will drive away anyone who disagrees with the 'herd' and force them to take their concerns and their passion to 'other' forums which your staff have no interest in monitoring.
Every entertainment media developer who has in the past opted for a highly moderated environment has seen their communities stagnate and whither. If you deny Evil Online's true nature and ignore those many tens of thousands of individuals who decry the constant and ham fisted attempts to destroy their faith in you, instead opting to surround yourself with sycophants, pedants and casuals: goooood fight.
Eve is hard. It is also full of foul mouthed bad people. Your business model as a niche product catering to Evil Online wannabes, results in an libertarian, highly vocal and irreverent player base. If you allow the closed ranks of the bears to drone out any dissenters then I predict sad and embarrassing things for you as a company going forward.
You won't make Eve stronger or the game better or attract more carebears by excluding the very hard core nucleous of angry, anti social and vocal nerds who prop up this mmo from populating and shitting up your forums. Whoever it is that has had this brain fart of 'micro' managing away all criticism of you operating procedures, policies and decision making processes, doesn't get it. In just the very same sad and predictable way people like me would be quick to point out before ISD n3rd edits it away. |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1250
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rer Eirikr wrote:Oh hey look, we're having a discourse about the ISD and forum moderation. Was that so hard? Having forum moderation is great, it streamlines discussion and gets rid of (most) of the badposting/spam. However, the line between moderation and outright censorship is a dangerous one, and sometimes I've seen sincerely legitimate threads, with actual discussion about EVE, be locked for rather odd reasons. One of the most prominent is seeing word "Jew" edited out,even if the word isn't being used in a negative connotation or with any hatred/anger behind it. If this is offensive to some, or against CCP's forum rules, then so be it, but things like this need to be clearly defined for all parties, and defined in a way that doesn't just seem robotic. (IE: Thread Locked, Generic Reason, Don't Try Contacting Me)
Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.
All I needed to hear. Understood loud and clear. o7 That was just one example that came to my head faster than others. I do want to thank you though for being candid about this entire discussion and letting us voice our opinions on this. (Plus the folks making silly locked threads were running out of funny one liners) |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
I appreciate the outline and the open communication.
I also recognize and accept the the ISD moderation is both for the improvement of the community and in any case, a fait acompli.
However, there were not "mistakes" made.
There were serious breaches of even the most basic and fundamental principles of customer services.
A particular ISD member I will not mention should NEVER be allowed to deal with the the public, unless deep training is done, and even then, the lack of common sense shown was not something that is usually easily fixed.
His or her behavior, at the very least, was petulant and condescending. At worse, it seemed he or she was engaged in a personal vendetta against a particular user, who then proceed to unsubscribed after various attempts to communicate his displeasure.
That is as far from good moderators and chill bros as you can get, and felt more like someone enjoying the power.
I guess my point is, this was not mistake, not a serious mistake, it was a game breaking bug in the system.
I do not understand why a hard introduce was needed. Even in real life, when new public area rules are introduced, the police are instructed to give warnings and educational summons before fines, for a period of months, to get people accustomed to the new rules.
I smoke, and live in a city that has banned smoking almost anywhere, and they took 6 months to introduce actual fines and interventions. In the meantime, the police told you to turn it off, and gave you a citation without a fine (to keep it on record in case you then got a fine later, it could be used to make the fine harsher).
So for example, instead of dumping new rules, and an obviously unprepared (And possibly unqualified) ISD team on us with full powers and full responsibility, a better way would have been to put the rules and have a period of education in which they wouldn't be enforced except in harsh/obvious cases (And of course, the old rules would be enforced normally), but instead they got a feel for the forums, the regulars, the trolls, the lines of demarcation, the coming and goings, you know, SITUATIONAL AWARNESS, and then after a few months, when the community already comfortable with the constant presence, then unleash the fury of the banhammer.
Of course, the cat is out of the bag, but there is a lesson here, which is that patience and understanding works both ways. And that just because one can do something, doesn't mean one should do it: that ethos is perfect for the game, not so perfect for customer service, which is what the ISD moderation is.
The only reason I do not volunteer is because I do not volunteer for for-profits. My accountant would kill me. But I know how CS works, and you did it wrong. And that is surprising, because CCP is consistently awesome in CS, even when failing at almost everything at some point or the other. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1250
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Spin. What you want CCP is a closed environment where naysayers and critics can be snuffed out in favour of rabid fanbois.
You want to avoid what has happened the last three years with your terrible expansions - people vocally and vociferously criticising your business decisions ad individuals responsible for them.
You want censorship and control and those two things will only result in a polarisation of game design and false confidence in your feedback quality and bias. Historically the Eve 'community' has been quick and sharp to point out your poor business and game design decisions and has been highly critical at key times in your business direction - which has saved you on several occasions.
The new 'direction' is merely going to result in an extension of the hubris bubble we see historically you like to perpetuate internally. Over time you will drive away anyone who disagrees with the 'herd' and force them to take their concerns and their passion to 'other' forums which your staff have no interest in monitoring.
Every entertainment media developer who has in the past opted for a highly moderated environment has seen their communities stagnate and whither. If you deny Evil Online's true nature and ignore those many tens of thousands of individuals who decry the constant and ham fisted attempts to destroy their faith in you, instead opting to surround yourself with sycophants, pedants and casuals: goooood fight.
Eve is hard. It is also full of foul mouthed bad people. Your business model as a niche product catering to Evil Online wannabes, results in an libertarian, highly vocal and irreverent player base. If you allow the closed ranks of the bears to drone out any dissenters then I predict sad and embarrassing things for you as a company going forward.
You won't make Eve stronger or the game better or attract more carebears by excluding the very hard core nucleous of angry, anti social and vocal nerds who prop up this mmo from populating and shitting up your forums. Whoever it is that has had this brain fart of 'micro' managing away all criticism of you operating procedures, policies and decision making processes, doesn't get it. In just the very same sad and predictable way people like me would be quick to point out before ISD n3rd edits it away.
i find i have to disagree with you on quite a few of your points, Holy One.
Firstly, your post was well written and should not be subject to edits in any way. You disagreed with me but did so in a polite and fair way. For that you should not be edited.
I understand the concept of EVE is hard and full of bad mouthed people but my feeling is that people use that as an excuse to be vitriolic and downright rude unnecessarily. I will ask you in all honesty, would you want to hold a conversation with me if I was being abusive to you and making you feel unwelcome? Do you find that having discussions of that nature is more or less productive?
Once again, we want you all to be vocal. We want you discussing EVE, why you love it, why you hate it, what you would like to see in the future and more. Our only request from you is that you do it in a way that makes your fellow players and our Developers comfortable in having that discussion with you.
i do not feel that this is an unreasonable request
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Spin. What you want CCP is a closed environment where naysayers and critics can be snuffed out in favour of rabid fanbois.
I will say I cautiously optimistic that is not the case.
Contrary to the the themeparks, EVE has always been way more open on its forums than other places, except for the annoying censoring filter, which I never got.
In fact, the threads here have been locked, not deleted, which they are in many other places.
And some of the stuff here, you couldn't get away with even in Something Awful.
So lets have a sense of proportion, and lets be patient.
That said, I do expect CCP to be more clear as to their intent, and this posting is a good step, but insufficient.
Yes, we are crybabies, and you cannot moderate that away. And we are crybabies that buy lots of etc, subs, and plexies with real money from CCP, so we are entitled crybabies. That will not change. Adapt or perish. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1250
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:I appreciate the outline and the open communication.
I also recognize and accept the the ISD moderation is both for the improvement of the community and in any case, a fait acompli.
However, there were not "mistakes" made.
There were serious breaches of even the most basic and fundamental principles of customer services.
A particular ISD member I will not mention should NEVER be allowed to deal with the the public, unless deep training is done, and even then, the lack of common sense shown was not something that is usually easily fixed.
His or her behavior, at the very least, was petulant and condescending. At worse, it seemed he or she was engaged in a personal vendetta against a particular user, who then proceed to unsubscribed after various attempts to communicate his displeasure.
That is as far from good moderators and chill bros as you can get, and felt more like someone enjoying the power.
I guess my point is, this was not mistake, not a serious mistake, it was a game breaking bug in the system.
I do not understand why a hard introduce was needed. Even in real life, when new public area rules are introduced, the police are instructed to give warnings and educational summons before fines, for a period of months, to get people accustomed to the new rules.
I smoke, and live in a city that has banned smoking almost anywhere, and they took 6 months to introduce actual fines and interventions. In the meantime, the police told you to turn it off, and gave you a citation without a fine (to keep it on record in case you then got a fine later, it could be used to make the fine harsher).
So for example, instead of dumping new rules, and an obviously unprepared (And possibly unqualified) ISD team on us with full powers and full responsibility, a better way would have been to put the rules and have a period of education in which they wouldn't be enforced except in harsh/obvious cases (And of course, the old rules would be enforced normally), but instead they got a feel for the forums, the regulars, the trolls, the lines of demarcation, the coming and goings, you know, SITUATIONAL AWARNESS, and then after a few months, when the community already comfortable with the constant presence, then unleash the fury of the banhammer.
Of course, the cat is out of the bag, but there is a lesson here, which is that patience and understanding works both ways. And that just because one can do something, doesn't mean one should do it: that ethos is perfect for the game, not so perfect for customer service, which is what the ISD moderation is.
The only reason I do not volunteer is because I do not volunteer for for-profits. My accountant would kill me. But I know how CS works, and you did it wrong. And that is surprising, because CCP is consistently awesome in CS, even when failing at almost everything at some point or the other.
Hi Crunchie Attuxors,
I want to address a few of your points if i may. Firstly, the ISD team have absolutely no banning powers whatsoever. All bans from the forums are issued by the Community team as are all new forum rules. The latest rules we have are to provide a better environment for Developers and players to talk. That is our primary goal.
It is to be expected that some volunteers (even seasoned CCP staff for that matter)( will drop the ball from time to time. In regards to ISD members, I view this as a training opportunity to make these guys and girls better and ensure they communicate much more effectively with the Community.
Obviously we will continue to conduct audits and ensure that CCL members revive the best support possible from us to do the best possible job for everyone.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
386
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Spin. What you want CCP is a closed environment where naysayers and critics can be snuffed out in favour of rabid fanbois.
You want to avoid what has happened the last three years with your terrible expansions - people vocally and vociferously criticising your business decisions and the individuals responsible for them.
You want censorship and control and those two things will only result in a polarisation of game design and false confidence in your feedback quality and bias. Historically the Eve 'community' has been quick and sharp to point out your poor business and game design decisions and has been highly critical at key times in your business direction - which has saved you on several occasions.
The new 'direction' is merely going to result in an extension of the hubris bubble we see historically you like to perpetuate internally. Over time you will drive away anyone who disagrees with the 'herd' and force them to take their concerns and their passion to 'other' forums which your staff have no interest in monitoring.
Every entertainment media developer who has in the past opted for a highly moderated environment has seen their communities stagnate and whither. If you deny Evil Online's true nature and ignore those many tens of thousands of individuals who decry the constant and ham fisted attempts to destroy their faith in you, instead opting to surround yourself with sycophants, pedants and casuals: goooood fight.
Eve is hard. It is also full of foul mouthed bad people. Your business model as a niche product catering to Evil Online wannabes, results in an libertarian, highly vocal and irreverent player base. If you allow the closed ranks of the bears to drone out any dissenters then I predict sad and embarrassing things for you as a company going forward.
You won't make Eve stronger or the game better or attract more carebears by excluding the very hard core nucleous of angry, anti social and vocal nerds who prop up this mmo from populating and shitting up your forums. Whoever it is that has had this brain fart of 'micro' managing away all criticism of you operating procedures, policies and decision making processes, doesn't get it. In just the very same sad and predictable way people like me would be quick to point out before ISD n3rd edits it away.
It starts with an attempt to order and ends with complete censorship. The worse most subjective and inconsistent sort.
This game is mostly populated by middle age, educated males... yet your post makes it sound like it's populated by unruly, pre-pubescent tantrum throughing morons....
I'm sure there is a middle ground, where the obnoxious minority are limited in a reasonable manner.... CCP has a history of letting long, venomous threads vent player frustrations over their business decisions and game design choices. Why do you think this is going to end??? If anything, setting up a clear set of guidelines on how ISD is to handle player outcry is a good thing, so long as it's not a blatant censorship of disenfranchised sentiments. |
Price Check Aisle3
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'd like to see posts taken in context before moderation. I caught a one month ban for "trolling someone being helpful" when, in fact, that someone was just being a jackass in a criticism thread and what I posted was something I would have considered a "gentle ribbing". Honestly, sometimes I feel like the actual reason for the ban is hidden elsewhere.
Second, some posters here seem to have found how to "game the system" by posting vitriol and insults in a very general manner. I find that highly offensive in light of the "personal attacks" rule and the bans generated by that rule.
Also, please change your link to contact about the ban to something other than a mailto link. For instance, maybe the petition area? Mailtos don't work on any of my computers because I don't have default mail clients. |
|
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
576
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Does this mean we have to put our posts calling our enemies and their shipfits stupid in CAOD now? What about if their posts are terrible outside of CAOD?
I mean, if I can kill someone because they do dumb things on a repeated basis over a period of time, I think it is reasonable to say "Hey, you are dumb, perhaps you should have fit a second civilian autocannon on your ratting carrier, and that way you will be less dumb."
Or will I forever have to go to that bastion of true posting outside of the EveO forums, that wretched hive of scum and villainy which cannot be named but yet everyone knows the name of already, if I wish to call someone dumb? Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hello everyone,
as per the community request my team and myself will do an introduction in this very thread. *waves*
Im with EVE since the last beta phase and still love to fire of some Minmatar artillery. In EVE i have done nearly everything. Mining, production, trading, PVP, PVE, hi-sec, low-sec and null space, i have seen it all. I even was a director of a rather huge corporation once, but that is long gone.
I dwell mostly in an NPC corp these days and do some missions to relax.
I began my ISD career in may 2005 as a member of the, now non existent, CRC team. The old forum moderators. Also having been part of the Bug Hunters and the EVElopedia administrators made me quite knowledge able of the EVE universe. Not saying i know everything, as that is quite impossible.
As soon as i heard there are plans for a sort of "Volunteer Community Team" i was sold. Since i have some knowledge from the past about this, i asked if i can be the "Top Dog" of the team and here i am.
We are still a long way from being perfect, but we are trying to improve. We accept feedback that is constructive. Shoot me your ideas in this thread and i will read and comment on them. Maybe i can provide you with an answer why some things are not possible to implement or hard to implement, but thats done on a case by case basis.
Yours, ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1251
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Does this mean we have to put our posts calling our enemies and their shipfits stupid in CAOD now? What about if their posts are terrible outside of CAOD?
I mean, if I can kill someone because they do dumb things on a repeated basis over a period of time, I think it is reasonable to say "Hey, you are dumb, perhaps you should have fit a second civilian autocannon on your ratting carrier, and that way you will be less dumb."
Or will I forever have to go to that bastion of true posting outside of the EveO forums, that wretched hive of scum and villainy which cannot be named but yet everyone knows the name of already, if I wish to call someone dumb?
Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'? As someone who frequents the forums you must surely be aware that giving out an insult generally results in getting an insult back thus setting up a cycle of deterioration in the thread. Do you feel that good threads being derailed in this manner benefits the community in general? Do you find that threads of these nature go on to become threads for the betterment of the community?
Have you ever thought of instead of insulting the player in question that you might wish to help him/her instead?
Now I realize this is not going to be a heavenly forum where people constantly Hi 5 and hug each other but surely starting posts with calling people dumb is the very definition of non-productive.
I ask this because I am genuinely curious.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Megnamon
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Spin. What you want CCP is a closed environment where naysayers and critics can be snuffed out in favour of rabid fanbois.
You want to avoid what has happened the last three years with your terrible expansions - people vocally and vociferously criticising your business decisions and the individuals responsible for them.
I would politely disagree with this statement. After using forums of other games I believe the "New CCP" (meaning post Incarna) is interested and responsive to constructive feedback and complaints. Mind you that the operative word is constructive, not omgwtfbbq rants about the end of the EVE as we know it. For the most part, I believe that the more the commuicty is constructive in voicing opionions, CCP will continue to be more transparent and responsive. Of course the inverse is true. Honestly, who wants to even acknowledge someone who goes all personal attacks in their posts? |
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Good afternoon, my name is Dorrim Barstorlode with the CCL. I'm just writing here to let people get a chance to know me a little better so we can get back to having a generally good forum (No pun intended). As most of you know, we're player volunteers, which means that there's a chance you've run into us without knowing it. I can tell you that I've had the pleasure of doing stuff in every area of EVE, but I mostly stick to w-space just because that's where I'm most comfortable. I won't lie and tell you I know a ton about null sec politics, but I know they happen and as such get discussed. That's cool with me, man. Just don't let it get too crazy. As for the rest of space, I can comfortably tell you about pretty much every type of activity you can do where, and with a working knowledge of the mechanics. Because that sort of thing is important to know.
With that in mind, I'd like to take a minute to let you all know that I'll try and ensure that I don't accidentally your entire thread. It's not what I'm here to do.
I'm just here to try and keep things civil, and put things where they need to go if need be. I've still got more to learn, so bear with me as i get settled in and I'll try to make sure everything works out just fine.
Thanks for being patient and willing to work with us.
Fly well.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Ensign Community Communication Liasions (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1174
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote: With that in mind, I'd like to take a minute to let you all know that I'll try and ensure that I don't accidentally your entire thread. It's not what I'm here to do.
could you please relay that message to ISD stenson thanks in advance |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
As there has now been an acknowledgement of player issues with the moderation, would CCP please un ban those accounts that took part in the protest. Getting a perma ban for some junk threads, compared to some of the stuff I have seen on the forums is harsh.
Tal
Yes I have petitioned.
|
Holy One
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
207
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.
To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism! |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
576
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Does this mean we have to put our posts calling our enemies and their shipfits stupid in CAOD now? What about if their posts are terrible outside of CAOD?
I mean, if I can kill someone because they do dumb things on a repeated basis over a period of time, I think it is reasonable to say "Hey, you are dumb, perhaps you should have fit a second civilian autocannon on your ratting carrier, and that way you will be less dumb."
Or will I forever have to go to that bastion of true posting outside of the EveO forums, that wretched hive of scum and villainy which cannot be named but yet everyone knows the name of already, if I wish to call someone dumb? Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'? As someone who frequents the forums you must surely be aware that giving out an insult generally results in getting an insult back thus setting up a cycle of deterioration in the thread. Do you feel that good threads being derailed in this manner benefits the community in general? Do you find that threads of these nature go on to become threads for the betterment of the community? Have you ever thought of instead of insulting the player in question that you might wish to help him/her instead? Now I realize this is not going to be a heavenly forum where people constantly Hi 5 and hug each other but surely starting posts with calling people dumb is the very definition of non-productive. I ask this because I am genuinely curious.
Seriouspost: This is a very good question for The Mittani. He literally makes this sort of thing his business (not calling people stupid, mind you, although he is very good at that, which is arguably mostly how he came to leading Goonswarm). That is to say, he spends his time winning the metagame. While the metagame* involves other things like outing spies and planting our own, often enough it comes down to persuading or beating down members of opposing alliances over public forums--the only place where both sides can see what the other has to say without being able to silence each other. There is a reason Goonswarm takes its posting seriously.**
If you can think back to RoyOfCA and Black Rise--bless you, Roy--he literally sat there and called peoples' corporation and alliance leaders stupid, corrupt cowards, and guess what happened: R I S E abandoned their space and never put up a fight. More recently, Goonswarm won the forum war against RaidenDOT. They were convinced they were already going to lose the war between us before it ever started. And then there wasn't even a war, as such, as we just steamrolled over their undefended and abandoned region in the fastest sov change Eve Online has ever seen outside of when Karttoon went on vacation.
Calling people stupid (with appropriate justification, such as "Your fit is terrible and we have told you multiple times it is terrible and you continue to use it" or "You don't check peoples' APIs when you recruit them" or "way to jump unscouted to a beacon, jesus christ") is a very valid tactic in an arsenal used for demoralizing and destroying enemies. If you just spray and pray with insults, you risk being identified as a moron yourself, so there's that to counterbalance morons sperging everywhere. There is also the notion that if you post, you should do so with proper grammar and spelling, and if you do not, u r an moron. We like to remind an morons of what they are in the hopes that they will post better.
Beating people in this game does not rely solely on blowing up their ships. It means getting them to not log in when they need to defend their stuff, or getting them to play other games because that's more fun than the thought of losing, or making them realize their leadership is utterly incompetent and corrupt and that they, the average Joe Poster, are being used and tossed aside by their supposed friends, or that their friends are idiots and Joe Poster should find a new home. Goodposters aim to destroy an enemy's morale through words. Making someone appear stupid to others or making them feel as though they have done something stupid is incredibly handy in accomplishing this.
So yes, being able to call people stupid is very important.
*You can't actually win the metagame **this is not the actual reason Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Wingmate
Raven's Flight Vanguard.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Holy One wrote:You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.
To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism!
holy crap, tinfoil hat post much?
also, pl LOL |
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1257
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
Holy One wrote:You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.
To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism!
I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be.
Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1257
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Does this mean we have to put our posts calling our enemies and their shipfits stupid in CAOD now? What about if their posts are terrible outside of CAOD?
I mean, if I can kill someone because they do dumb things on a repeated basis over a period of time, I think it is reasonable to say "Hey, you are dumb, perhaps you should have fit a second civilian autocannon on your ratting carrier, and that way you will be less dumb."
Or will I forever have to go to that bastion of true posting outside of the EveO forums, that wretched hive of scum and villainy which cannot be named but yet everyone knows the name of already, if I wish to call someone dumb? Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'? As someone who frequents the forums you must surely be aware that giving out an insult generally results in getting an insult back thus setting up a cycle of deterioration in the thread. Do you feel that good threads being derailed in this manner benefits the community in general? Do you find that threads of these nature go on to become threads for the betterment of the community? Have you ever thought of instead of insulting the player in question that you might wish to help him/her instead? Now I realize this is not going to be a heavenly forum where people constantly Hi 5 and hug each other but surely starting posts with calling people dumb is the very definition of non-productive. I ask this because I am genuinely curious. Seriouspost: This is a very good question for The Mittani. He literally makes this sort of thing his business (not calling people stupid, mind you, although he is very good at that, which is arguably mostly how he came to leading Goonswarm). That is to say, he spends his time winning the metagame. While the metagame* involves other things like outing spies and planting our own, often enough it comes down to persuading or beating down members of opposing alliances over public forums--the only place where both sides can see what the other has to say without being able to silence each other. There is a reason Goonswarm takes its posting seriously.** If you can think back to RoyOfCA and Black Rise--bless you, Roy--he literally sat there and called peoples' corporation and alliance leaders stupid, corrupt cowards, and guess what happened: R I S E abandoned their space and never put up a fight. More recently, Goonswarm won the forum war against RaidenDOT. They were convinced they were already going to lose the war between us before it ever started. And then there wasn't even a war, as such, as we just steamrolled over their undefended and abandoned region in the fastest sov change Eve Online has ever seen outside of when Karttoon went on vacation. Calling people stupid (with appropriate justification, such as "Your fit is terrible and we have told you multiple times it is terrible and you continue to use it" or "You don't check peoples' APIs when you recruit them" or "way to jump unscouted to a beacon, jesus christ") is a very valid tactic in an arsenal used for demoralizing and destroying enemies. If you just spray and pray with insults, you risk being identified as a moron yourself, so there's that to counterbalance morons sperging everywhere. There is also the notion that if you post, you should do so with proper grammar and spelling, and if you do not, u r an moron. We like to remind an morons of what they are in the hopes that they will post better. Beating people in this game does not rely solely on blowing up their ships. It means getting them to not log in when they need to defend their stuff, or getting them to play other games because that's more fun than the thought of losing, or making them realize their leadership is utterly incompetent and corrupt and that they, the average Joe Poster, are being used and tossed aside by their supposed friends, or that their friends are idiots and Joe Poster should find a new home. Goodposters aim to destroy an enemy's morale through words. Making someone appear stupid to others or making them feel as though they have done something stupid is incredibly handy in accomplishing this. So yes, being able to call people stupid is very important. *You can't actually win the metagame **this is not the actual reason
A very well written and interesting reply which definitely gives me food for thought. I will mull this over for a while before writing something more in depth
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
ISD LoneLynx
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hello!
I'm just ordinary Russian pilot, currently not affiliated with any of the big alliances. My language may be somehow wrong, but I'm able to freely read and understand, so sometimes do the step out of the Russian section, because there is some very interesting and funny threads in GD, thanks to you :). Also, there is material for my translations.
I was (and possibly am) a carebear, but sometimes ago received the pleasure of low-sec PvP in active role with small gang, so my killboard stats are positive.
I'm loving EVE deeply, being here from Revelations II if I remember date correctly, but still feel no reason to meet the grand polirics, so 'Goonswaffegate' had been almost missed by me.
I'm sorry our instructions lead us to being rude last days. Hope it may be corrected.
Also I'm deaf so staying our of Skyoe while it's still possible. ISD LoneLynx Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
576
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
An addendum: this is a select part of the forum rules from Something Awful, a place whose moderation would make virtually everyone here cry from how strict it is.
"Remember: just because someone is posting like a complete idiot doesn't mean you can just call them a stupid ******* - you need to take the time and intelligently or humorously point out why/how they are a stupid *******."
It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:55:00 -
[35] - Quote
Okay, I'm going to ask before I say anything else, because I really don't wanna say something I'm not allowed to say.* Can I discuss "that one website that starts with a K" and its forum moderation? If I can, and I will do so with the utmost care, I'd like to compare and contrast the moderation, the allowance of insults/etc., and the discussions that form as a result.
*No pun or rib intended here, I'm honestly just going slow on this one. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Holy One wrote:You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.
To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism! I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be. Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general.
Yet ppl that have mostly added to the discussion, Ruby Porto for example (although I disagree with what he says most of the time) have been perma banned for just posting joke threads as a protest.
They weren't being abusive, posting malware, RMT, menacing or trolling each other, actually saw ppl coming together that normally would not, because they care about the subject.
Why so heavy handed ?
Tal
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 17:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
Rer Eirikr wrote:Okay, I'm going to ask before I say anything else, because I really don't wanna say something I'm not allowed to say.* Can I discuss "that one website that starts with a K" and its forum moderation? If I can, and I will do so with the utmost care, I'd like to compare and contrast the moderation, the allowance of insults/etc., and the discussions that form as a result.
*No pun or rib intended here, I'm honestly just going slow on this one.
No, not really. I fail to see what another forum does has any relation to this forum. For example, if you were banned on Failheap should I extend that ban here so that we are in harmony? Would you find something of this nature to be fair? I would certainly not.
The rules of other forums, what they allow or do not allow is completely up to those communities and their administrators.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Velicia Tuoro
Light Speed Interactive The Mockers AO
82
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nice OP CCP Navigator. I think it's great that CCP are experimenting with this.
In my RL job I manage a community/forum that is entirely customer/volunteer moderated and they do a great job. What is very different to how you guys are approaching this is that we have effectively "given" the community to them. They own it. They ban. They control the rules. We advise and support, but don't overrule. We find we never need to.
This transparency of responsibility means our forum is an extremely constructive place. It allows our customers to rant at us, get support and feel like they aren't being spun/marketed to them. It's in a way, liberating. We get a lot of flack in there for the things we do wrong, but also a lot of positivity and suggestions for how to improve it.
The key to its success so far has been clear rules and an open dialog between the moderators and the moderation decisions being made. It is important for people who have "broken the rules" to have it explained to them what they've done and be allowed the chance to defend/explain their actions. This helps to break the us vs them attitude you sometimes see on forums websites.
One of the struggles this forum has is the sheer number of people who seem to simply enjoy trolling and just generally being argumentative. I sympathise with how difficult it must be to make the right decisions in these situations. You can't really win as you are going to upset someone now matter what you do, and having a policy of dialog around those decisions would be unworkable based on the volume. I watch with interest as to how you tackle it! Senior Representative Light Speed Interactive http://www.lightspeedinteractive.net |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
Rats wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Holy One wrote:You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.
To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism! I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be. Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general. Yet ppl that have mostly added to the discussion, Ruby Porto for example (although I disagree with what he says most of the time) have been perma banned for just posting joke threads as a protest. They weren't being abusive, posting malware, RMT, menacing or trolling each other, actually saw ppl coming together that normally would not, because they care about the subject. Why so heavy handed ? Tal
I have no intention of discussing specific cases on the forums. You stated that you already have a petition on the subject so a Community Rep will be in otuch when we get to that in the queue. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1663
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums.
We've been upset for a whole ******* lot longer than 24 hours.
Whats the point of ISD? Seriously. I have never seen ISD do their job right in the entire time I've spent on these forums. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
|
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:The rules of other forums, what they allow or do not allow is completely up to those communities and their administrators.
Indeed, it would merely have been used as a compare/contrast scenario to address some of your past questions. You have however requested I not go "there", and as such I will not. Thank you for the reply. |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
Velicia Tuoro wrote:Nice OP CCP Navigator. I think it's great that CCP are experimenting with this.
In my RL job I manage a community/forum that is entirely customer/volunteer moderated and they do a great job. What is very different to how you guys are approaching this is that we have effectively "given" the community to them. They own it. They ban. They control the rules. We advise and support, but don't overrule. We find we never need to.
This transparency of responsibility means our forum is an extremely constructive place. It allows our customers to rant at us, get support and feel like they aren't being spun/marketed to them. It's in a way, liberating. We get a lot of flack in there for the things we do wrong, but also a lot of positivity and suggestions for how to improve it.
The key to its success so far has been clear rules and an open dialog between the moderators and the moderation decisions being made. It is important for people who have "broken the rules" to have it explained to them what they've done and be allowed the chance to defend/explain their actions. This helps to break the us vs them attitude you sometimes see on forums websites.
One of the struggles this forum has is the sheer number of people who seem to simply enjoy trolling and just generally being argumentative. I sympathise with how difficult it must be to make the right decisions in these situations. You can't really win as you are going to upset someone now matter what you do, and having a policy of dialog around those decisions would be unworkable based on the volume. I watch with interest as to how you tackle it!
Thank you, Velicia.
We are currently looking at ways to introduce more moderation by the community, for the community. We are simply at the brainstorming part of 'How could we do is?' and 'Should we do this?' so nothing may ever come of it. We realize that such systems require a lot of planning to make them useful and fair.
That is pretty much all I can say about it at this time CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Metal Icarus
xHELLonEARTHx LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
220
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:We've been upset for a whole ******* lot longer than 24 hours.
urnotdoinitrite.... at all
|
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
316
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:06:00 -
[44] - Quote
I understand why CCP want to make the forums a more friendly place. However I am totally against cencorship in any form. Personal out of game attacks should be forbidden, but that is all that should be cencored.
Calling people idiots and forum bickering has led to ingame disputes in the past. That is emergent gameplay at its finest! CCP should encourage this. The new citizens Q&A should be a bit better protected, but to be honest, it was fine the way it was in the past. New players were encouraged and got the help they needed.
All the other forum sections should be as lightly moderated as possible. Locking threads and deleting posts should be the last actions and it should not be taken lightly. Fix FW ! |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Rats wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Holy One wrote:You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.
To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism! I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be. Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general. Yet ppl that have mostly added to the discussion, Ruby Porto for example (although I disagree with what he says most of the time) have been perma banned for just posting joke threads as a protest. They weren't being abusive, posting malware, RMT, menacing or trolling each other, actually saw ppl coming together that normally would not, because they care about the subject. Why so heavy handed ? Tal I have no intention of discussing specific cases on the forums. You stated that you already have a petition on the subject so a Community Rep will be in otuch when we get to that in the queue.
Ok no specifics then, why is such a casual offence worth a perma ban. Is there a list of punishments to go against certain forum activities, rather than a general rule that is applied inconsistently depending on how someone feels about life that day ?
Tal
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:08:00 -
[46] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. We've been upset for a whole ******* lot longer than 24 hours.Whats the point of ISD? Seriously. I have never seen ISD do their job right in the entire time I've spent on these forums.
Thank you for your input, Akirei.
While you are entitled to your opinion we have received many petitions and mails from players who are thankful for the help they have received from ISD right across the board.
I am sorry that they do not meet your expectations. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
Rats wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Rats wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Holy One wrote:You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.
To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism! I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be. Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general. Yet ppl that have mostly added to the discussion, Ruby Porto for example (although I disagree with what he says most of the time) have been perma banned for just posting joke threads as a protest. They weren't being abusive, posting malware, RMT, menacing or trolling each other, actually saw ppl coming together that normally would not, because they care about the subject. Why so heavy handed ? Tal I have no intention of discussing specific cases on the forums. You stated that you already have a petition on the subject so a Community Rep will be in otuch when we get to that in the queue. Ok no specifics then, why is such a casual offence worth a perma ban. Is there a list of punishments to go against certain forum activities, rather than a general rule that is applied inconsistently depending on how someone feels about life that day ? Tal
Hi Tal,
I am not going to be discussing bans in this thread. Please respect that and move on. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:11:00 -
[48] - Quote
Megnamon wrote:
I would politely disagree with this statement. After using forums of other games I believe the "New CCP" (meaning post Incarna) is interested and responsive to constructive feedback and complaints. Mind you that the operative word is constructive, not omgwtfbbq rants about the end of the EVE as we know it. For the most part, I believe that the more the commuicty is constructive in voicing opionions, CCP will continue to be more transparent and responsive. Of course the inverse is true. Honestly, who wants to even acknowledge someone who goes all personal attacks in their posts?
CCP did an unprecedented about face after Incarna, and while we all have grievances, ideas, and trolling to do about it, it has mostly lived up to its promise to never again mess up the way they did with Incarna.
So I take this opportunity to say another thing:
A lot of what is going on, a year after Incarna, is that you guys really messed up, really broke a lot of the implicit trust, and really destroyed a bond with a significant percent of your player base. Perhaps not the majority, but certainly the most vocal, and hence, influential, both on game, and in the forums, as well as the outside places that are, like it or not, part of the community.
And while you guys (CCP) have clearly worked hard to undo the damage done, it was very real. And as we know, it is easier to break something, than to put it back together.
So in this context, came the ISD moderator thing, and it was fumbled. What pre-Incarna might have been a small annoyance, is now amplified, motives questioned, fears developed, etc.
I admit, openly, I am still not sure what this whole moderation business is actually about. I am skeptical. And that is not helped by a terribly unauspicious start.
Because we are also human, with the difference being that while CCP gets paid to do this, we pay for the pleasure. That difference is not trivial, as we would hate to see our investment of time and money go up in smoke because CCP fails in the stewardship.
The fears might be unfounded, but it doesn't make any less real. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
316
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:[quote=Megnamon] ... A lot of what is going on, a year after Incarna, is that you guys really messed up, really broke a lot of the implicit trust, and really destroyed a bond with a significant percent of your player base. Perhaps not the majority, but certainly the most vocal, and hence, influential, both on game, and in the forums, as well as the outside places that are, like it or not, part of the community.
And while you guys (CCP) have clearly worked hard to undo the damage done, it was very real. And as we know, it is easier to break something, than to put it back together. ...
Messing up is not bad if you learn from your mistakes. Personally I like the fact that CCP opens dialog with us when something is wrong. (Like this issue) pre-incarna this two-way communication did not exist as much.
I like the fact that they screw up and talk about it. Screwing up is normal, it means they are trying new stuff and moving forward. It does not always seem like it in my posts, but I really like CCP for that attitude!
Tx CCP for talking with us. Fix FW ! |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1260
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:[quote=Megnamon] ... A lot of what is going on, a year after Incarna, is that you guys really messed up, really broke a lot of the implicit trust, and really destroyed a bond with a significant percent of your player base. Perhaps not the majority, but certainly the most vocal, and hence, influential, both on game, and in the forums, as well as the outside places that are, like it or not, part of the community.
And while you guys (CCP) have clearly worked hard to undo the damage done, it was very real. And as we know, it is easier to break something, than to put it back together. ... Messing up is not bad if you learn from your mistakes. Personally I like the fact that CCP opens dialog with us when something is wrong. (Like this issue) pre-incarna this two-way communication did not exist as much. I like the fact that they screw up and talk about it. Screwing up is normal, it means they are trying new stuff and moving forward. It does not always seem like it in my posts, but I really like CCP for that attitude! Tx CCP for talking with us.
You are more than welcome CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
757
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'?
The purpose is not to insult. It is to make the person aware of a fact. Many people will not accept help until they are made aware they need help, and you have to tell them precisely why.
On the other hand, it is far far better to make the person aware of the need for help by giving reasons specific to the situation. Even if "You are dumb" is a completely true statement of fact, it is still an insult. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:18:00 -
[52] - Quote
Thank you Navigator for taking time to deal with this for the community.
I'll just put here my opinion on the matter of ISD communication from another thread.
Quote:One thing that would go a long way towards better moderation would be if the ISDs invited us to contact them (through EVE mail) if we felt they did something wrongly. That way we could have a nice little discussion and maybe both the volunteers and the forum folks could learn a bit about each other (including how to better serve the community).
Instead we get one liners with no opening for explanation, because we can't discuss moderation on the forums. Adding to this, the CSPA charge that is set adds further to the illusion that we shouldn't ask questions and just accept one liners.
It should be encouraged to discuss with the ISDs why they took the action they did. For those of us who are reasonable (some exist), it would be a great addition to communication and a method to improve community relations.
Maybe I'm just a dreamer. |
Quaaid
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:19:00 -
[53] - Quote
Quote:Our aim is to provide a discussion platform that allows players, volunteers and developers to talk about EVE and how we can make it better, what you like and what you want to see more of in the future.
What you want then is a feedback forum, not General Discussion. Why repurpose GD when you can accomplish your goal with a more focused forum and save yourself the growing pains?
A feedback forum could serve your dual purpose: - Get feedback on recently introduced and/or legacy development items - Introduce new feature ideas for community concensus before implimentation (less design by committee, more pass/fail).
Quote:I will be totally candid and tell you that this does not happen when any of these groups becomes abusive and vindictive. That type of discussion only ever results in one or more of those groups becoming more distant and non-communicative. That is not good for you, the players, and it is definitely not what our developers and volunteers want to see happening. So here is our plan for taking the EVE Community team and ISD forward:
Making plans around self-defining GD when the community has already defined it for you will end poorly.
I have years of gaming forum moderation experience under my belt, and hold three things to always be true: - There needs to be an outlet for crap posts - People want their crap posts to be seen - Your most popular board will therefore be the natural home of crap posts
You can solve this problem in a number of ways: - Create a feedback forum for your intentions, leaving General to be General (Quaaid Approved) - Create a crap post forum, and let the trolls have it as you repurpose General to be your feedback hub ( mild end user change, harder to impliment) - Stay the course, and learn the hard lessons, perhaps succeed where others have failed (constricting end user change, imminent failure)
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1260
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:20:00 -
[54] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Thank you Navigator for taking time to deal with this for the community. I'll just put here my opinion on the matter of ISD communication from another thread. Quote:One thing that would go a long way towards better moderation would be if the ISDs invited us to contact them (through EVE mail) if we felt they did something wrongly. That way we could have a nice little discussion and maybe both the volunteers and the forum folks could learn a bit about each other (including how to better serve the community).
Instead we get one liners with no opening for explanation, because we can't discuss moderation on the forums. Adding to this, the CSPA charge that is set adds further to the illusion that we shouldn't ask questions and just accept one liners. It should be encouraged to discuss with the ISDs why they took the action they did. For those of us who are reasonable (some exist ), it would be a great addition to communication and a method to improve community relations. Maybe I'm just a dreamer.
I think having the ability to talk about improving the community with the Community team and ISD could make for a good podcast/Live Dev Blog.
I will see if this can be arranged but no promises CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
killorbekilled TBE
Dare Bears
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
Let the authors of each new thread remove unwanted posts
the author can decide what is trolling or off topic
TrollorbeTrolled |
Holy One
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
210
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:21:00 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. We've been upset for a whole ******* lot longer than 24 hours.Whats the point of ISD? Seriously. I have never seen ISD do their job right in the entire time I've spent on these forums. Thank you for your input, Akirei. While you are entitled to your opinion we have received many petitions and mails from players who are thankful for the help they have received from ISD right across the board. I am sorry that they do not meet your expectations.
The noticeable change in your tone in just two pages kinda reveals the future of 'friendlier forums' to us. Thanks m8r. |
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:23:00 -
[57] - Quote
A fair bit off topic, but since Navigator is already responding to this thread, can you please resume using the RSS feed for patch notes (found here - http://community.eveonline.com/feed/rdfpatchnotes.asp)? |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1260
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:23:00 -
[58] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:Quote:Our aim is to provide a discussion platform that allows players, volunteers and developers to talk about EVE and how we can make it better, what you like and what you want to see more of in the future. What you want then is a feedback forum, not General Discussion. Why repurpose GD when you can accomplish your goal with a more focused forum and save yourself the growing pains? A feedback forum could serve your dual purpose: - Get feedback on recently introduced and/or legacy development items - Introduce new feature ideas for community concensus before implimentation (less design by committee, more pass/fail). Quote:I will be totally candid and tell you that this does not happen when any of these groups becomes abusive and vindictive. That type of discussion only ever results in one or more of those groups becoming more distant and non-communicative. That is not good for you, the players, and it is definitely not what our developers and volunteers want to see happening. So here is our plan for taking the EVE Community team and ISD forward: Making plans around self-defining GD when the community has already defined it for you will end poorly. I have years of gaming forum moderation experience under my belt, and hold three things to always be true: - There needs to be an outlet for crap posts - People want their crap posts to be seen - Your most popular board will therefore be the natural home of crap posts You can solve this problem in a number of ways: - Create a feedback forum for your intentions, leaving General to be General (Quaaid Approved) - Create a crap post forum, and let the trolls have it as you repurpose General to be your feedback hub ( mild end user change, harder to impliment) - Stay the course, and learn the hard lessons, perhaps succeed where others have failed (constricting end user change, imminent failure)
'Crap posts' are not necessarily a problem. Abusive, spiteful and hateful posts most certaiinly are.
There are a wealth of forums which cater to this type of posting but this will not be one of them.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:It should be encouraged to discuss with the ISDs why they took the action they did. For those of us who are reasonable (some exist ), it would be a great addition to communication and a method to improve community relations. Maybe I'm just a dreamer.
I'll tie this into what I was going to discuss earlier. Other very successful EVE forums included a reason field when they dole out punishments. They also automatically create threads, that are publicly shown, to show: the rule broken, the punishment given, and the reason why. People can then comment on said threads to openly discuss moderation, ending up with a much more transparent system in which the rules are clearly defined, understood, and (generally speaking) accepted.
Basically, having a shadow area of mailto's and petitions to discuss moderation is bad. The more transparent you are about it, the more likely it will be accepted by the community at large (barring any necessary changes as voiced by the community). Whether CCP wants to try out such a system is entirely up to them, but in my opinion it works wonders.
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1260
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:25:00 -
[60] - Quote
Hmmm, I will pass this on to the right people first thing in the morning. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1265
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
Unfortuantely I need to leave now but I will be back to answer more points tomorrow.
Be cool. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:34:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Unfortuantely I need to leave now but I will be back to answer more points tomorrow.
Be cool.
Thanks for taking the time, enjoy the sun! Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
132
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:34:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Hmmm, I will pass this on to the right people first thing in the morning.
Cheers! |
Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
541
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:34:00 -
[64] - Quote
Bring back CCP Zymurgist and CCP Wrangler and everything will be forgiven. Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
Quaaid
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:43:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Unfortuantely I need to leave now but I will be back to answer more points tomorrow.
Be cool.
^ This is a trap.
Just to touch on your last comment to my reply. There is no intelligent distinction being made between posts of no use (crap posts) and abusive posts (which I agree need moderation). The ISD team has been too heavy handed in their approach and the community is not responding well.
Your community is always generating massive amounts of useless posts, these posts need a home that is not the trash bin. If you won't recognise that then you chose to silence the (I would say majority) of your community. They will (and are) fighting you to be heard on an irrational level. Posting for the sake of posting to them is a freedom they don't want to give up, even though it's pointless it is a distraction to them that is fun or engaging on some level. Taking it away is going to be met with resistance.
Sum up crap posting to 'entertainment'. Take ISDs efforts of late as a limitation to that outlet of entertainment. With that in mind, make educated decisions about how to still meet your communiity goals without limiting the entertainment value of posting.
|
Remigius Varagine
GONE RETARD BACK LATER Rise - Against
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:45:00 -
[66] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote: Seriouspost: This is a very good question for The Mittani. He literally makes this sort of thing his business (not calling people stupid, mind you, although he is very good at that, which is arguably mostly how he came to leading Goonswarm). That is to say, he spends his time winning the metagame. While the metagame* involves other things like outing spies and planting our own, often enough it comes down to persuading or beating down members of opposing alliances over public forums--the only place where both sides can see what the other has to say without being able to silence each other. There is a reason Goonswarm takes its posting seriously.**
If you can think back to RoyOfCA and Black Rise--bless you, Roy--he literally sat there and called peoples' corporation and alliance leaders stupid, corrupt cowards, and guess what happened: R I S E abandoned their space and never put up a fight. More recently, Goonswarm won the forum war against RaidenDOT. They were convinced they were already going to lose the war between us before it ever started. And then there wasn't even a war, as such, as we just steamrolled over their undefended and abandoned region in the fastest sov change Eve Online has ever seen outside of when Karttoon went on vacation.
Calling people stupid (with appropriate justification, such as "Your fit is terrible and we have told you multiple times it is terrible and you continue to use it" or "You don't check peoples' APIs when you recruit them" or "way to jump unscouted to a beacon, jesus christ") is a very valid tactic in an arsenal used for demoralizing and destroying enemies. If you just spray and pray with insults, you risk being identified as a moron yourself, so there's that to counterbalance morons sperging everywhere. There is also the notion that if you post, you should do so with proper grammar and spelling, and if you do not, u r an moron. We like to remind an morons of what they are in the hopes that they will post better.
Beating people in this game does not rely solely on blowing up their ships. It means getting them to not log in when they need to defend their stuff, or getting them to play other games because that's more fun than the thought of losing, or making them realize their leadership is utterly incompetent and corrupt and that they, the average Joe Poster, are being used and tossed aside by their supposed friends, or that their friends are idiots and Joe Poster should find a new home. Goodposters aim to destroy an enemy's morale through words. Making someone appear stupid to others or making them feel as though they have done something stupid is incredibly handy in accomplishing this.
So yes, being able to call people stupid is very important.
*You can't actually win the metagame **this is not the actual reason
So, you want to post in a way that makes other people stop playing EVE? On the forum that is owned by CCP (who wants to make money with EVE)? And you want an official stamp of approval from CCP for that sort of action?
I am just asking if I understand correctly what I was reading in your post. So please correct me if I got anything wrong. Thanks in advance.
|
OlRotGut
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:49:00 -
[67] - Quote
Make posting cost ISK.
Make user rating increase or decrease said ISK fee to post
Allow the author of the thread to delete 'trolling' posts for a cost of ISK.
You suck at posting, your user rating suffers, your posts now cost xx more ISK
Just a thought and I know it could be expanded upon.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:55:00 -
[68] - Quote
OlRotGut wrote:Make posting cost ISK.
Make user rating increase or decrease said ISK fee to post
Allow the author of the thread to delete 'trolling' posts for a cost of ISK.
You suck at posting, your user rating suffers, your posts now cost xx more ISK
Just a thought and I know it could be expanded upon.
Unfortunately, this would be way too open to abuse. Hence why moderation should never be done by the OP (especially as we have OPs that troll too). |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
I am very disappointed with CCP.
For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.
It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.
Best regards, Vaju If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
577
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:02:00 -
[70] - Quote
Remigius Varagine wrote:So, you want to post in a way that makes other people stop playing EVE? On the forum that is owned by CCP (who wants to make money with EVE)? And you want an official stamp of approval from CCP for that sort of action?
I am just asking if I understand correctly what I was reading in your post. So please correct me if I got anything wrong. Thanks in advance.
You are part of Goonswarm's target audience.
:get out: Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
|
Gaellia Bonaventure
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:12:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:
Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.
Thank you for understanding this.
Bring your possibles. |
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:12:00 -
[72] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:I am very disappointed with CCP.
For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.
It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.
Best regards, Vaju
We're really sorry about all this. Like we said, we're still learning and didn't mean to provoke such a large back lash. We're more than willing to listen to you and get more involved in the community so we don't just seem to come out of nowhere and get all Judge Dredd on everyone.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Ensign Community Communication Liasions (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
None ofthe Above
277
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:20:00 -
[73] - Quote
Kudos on opening up this line of communication.
I support in general the goal of increased moderation on EVE-O, even while sometimes being frustrated that good debate seems to be squashed at times.
I appreciate the ISD and respect that they volunteer for the love of the game. The work they do particularly in rookie chat is very difficult and I can't imagine trying to keep with that. I've tried on a few occasions to help out when an ISD is not around, its very hard to keep pace and contribute. Forums moderation is definitely another difficult and often thankless task (been there, done that, burnt out).
EVE-O signal to noise ratio can be pretty bad, and it has improved since the ISD moderation has started, but its been a bumpy road with some clear problems along the way.
So, Thank You ISD. Much appreciated, recent events not withstanding.
A couple of observations and suggestions from my perspective:
- This is a difficult job, and not everyone is cut out for it. You do need to be prepared to get someone to stand down and get off the team. Not sure if that's applicable to the last couple of days, but in spite the urge to circle the wagons when one of your own gets in trouble, the option to thank someone for their time and telling them that its not a good fit needs to be on the table.
- I won't be using the word censorship here, as its inappropriate. This is a private forum and CCP has the right to set the rules of the forums. But it also needs to set them in a way that fosters the kind of community it wants. Setting policies are actions, and actions have consequences. Its perfectly reasonable that the community would want to discuss or protest policies and and specific moderations, and get upset if they feel they are prevented from doing so.
- The no discussing moderation rule makes some sense, but causes more difficulties than just about anything else on the forums. Perhaps a moderation discussion forum? All that in one place so discussions (something like this fine thread) can take place but not overwhelm everything else. Clear ability to dispute specific incidents and moderation policy is needed in environments like this.
- Moderation needs to back off at least a little, IMHO, when substantive topics are being discussed. It really sucks to see valid points squashed just because the poster got a little heated. Forums become useless if people can't communicate.
- Threads should probably not be locked because other posters are spamming it and its gone off topic. This opens the door to abuse as people who do not want something discussed can "shiptoast" up the thread and get it locked.
- There are times when a truly offensive post needs to stand. For example, during the last CSM election season several candidates made posts so bad they had to be removed by moderation (not sure that was ISD at that point, but I am sure the issue is bound to come up next year). The problem with this is it essentially white-washed the incident from the voters mind. At least one of said candidates went on to win a seat. Imagine if the news suppressed American presidential candidate Perry's "OOPS" moment as a mistake, or refused to discuss Romney's bullying incident? Lets not let moderation overwhelm important points and information. (While personal attacks against candidates, if not properly substantiated, are probably off limits and rightly moderated.) Alternatively, if it's so bad you can't leave it on the forums, maybe that person should be removed from the ballot.
Anyway, thanks for providing a place to get those thoughts off my mind. Some of these points have been bugging me for a while, but since we can't talk about moderation... haven't been brought up.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:37:00 -
[74] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:I am very disappointed with CCP.
For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.
It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.
Best regards, Vaju
I think i have more reason than anyone to question CCP's vision of the sandbox right now. However, let it play out a bit before judging them. I am practicing what I preach. It's the end result we all want and sometimes the process is messy. |
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group Eternus Imperium Alliance
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:37:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Does this mean we have to put our posts calling our enemies and their shipfits stupid in CAOD now? What about if their posts are terrible outside of CAOD?
I mean, if I can kill someone because they do dumb things on a repeated basis over a period of time, I think it is reasonable to say "Hey, you are dumb, perhaps you should have fit a second civilian autocannon on your ratting carrier, and that way you will be less dumb."
Or will I forever have to go to that bastion of true posting outside of the EveO forums, that wretched hive of scum and villainy which cannot be named but yet everyone knows the name of already, if I wish to call someone dumb? Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'? As someone who frequents the forums you must surely be aware that giving out an insult generally results in getting an insult back thus setting up a cycle of deterioration in the thread. Do you feel that good threads being derailed in this manner benefits the community in general? Do you find that threads of these nature go on to become threads for the betterment of the community? Have you ever thought of instead of insulting the player in question that you might wish to help him/her instead? Now I realize this is not going to be a heavenly forum where people constantly Hi 5 and hug each other but surely starting posts with calling people dumb is the very definition of non-productive. I ask this because I am genuinely curious.
I was once driving with my 6 yr old nephew in the car ,when a guy cut me off i screamed STUPID IDIOT !! Jake said "No uncle bill you shouldn't call someone that " I said " why not " it took him a few minutes to answer when he finally did he said "Cause if they are an idiot , they know it already, so you don't need to tell them again. " Made me smile |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1194
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:40:00 -
[76] - Quote
On the note of threads being locked for "going off-topic" - this is seriously poor moderation. It's one thing if the discussion has gone full circle and nothing good is coming out of it but that's not even in the same ballpark as "going off-topic." It's always the same badposters using the same sockpuppet NPC corp alts steering threads "off-topic" and getting what was previously a good discussion locked. a rogue goon |
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:41:00 -
[77] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:I am very disappointed with CCP.
For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.
It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.
Best regards, Vaju I think i have more reason than anyone to question CCP's vision of the sandbox right now. However, let it play out a bit before judging them. I am practicing what I preach. It's the end result we all want and sometimes the process is messy. Thanks for being pretty cool about it. New processes are always shaky to begin with and like we said, we're still learning. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Ensign Community Communication Liasions (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
577
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:43:00 -
[78] - Quote
No, the problem with stupid people is that they don't realize they're stupid. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Dalmont Delantee
The Black Legionnares SpaceMonkey's Alliance
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:47:00 -
[79] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Holy One wrote:Spin. What you want CCP is a closed environment where naysayers and critics can be snuffed out in favour of rabid fanbois.
You want to avoid what has happened the last three years with your terrible expansions - people vocally and vociferously criticising your business decisions and the individuals responsible for them.
You want censorship and control and those two things will only result in a polarisation of game design and false confidence in your feedback quality and bias. Historically the Eve 'community' has been quick and sharp to point out your poor business and game design decisions and has been highly critical at key times in your business direction - which has saved you on several occasions.
The new 'direction' is merely going to result in an extension of the hubris bubble we see historically you like to perpetuate internally. Over time you will drive away anyone who disagrees with the 'herd' and force them to take their concerns and their passion to 'other' forums which your staff have no interest in monitoring.
Every entertainment media developer who has in the past opted for a highly moderated environment has seen their communities stagnate and whither. If you deny Evil Online's true nature and ignore those many tens of thousands of individuals who decry the constant and ham fisted attempts to destroy their faith in you, instead opting to surround yourself with sycophants, pedants and casuals: goooood fight.
Eve is hard. It is also full of foul mouthed bad people. Your business model as a niche product catering to Evil Online wannabes, results in an libertarian, highly vocal and irreverent player base. If you allow the closed ranks of the bears to drone out any dissenters then I predict sad and embarrassing things for you as a company going forward.
You won't make Eve stronger or the game better or attract more carebears by excluding the very hard core nucleous of angry, anti social and vocal nerds who prop up this mmo from populating and shitting up your forums. Whoever it is that has had this brain fart of 'micro' managing away all criticism of you operating procedures, policies and decision making processes, doesn't get it. In just the very same sad and predictable way people like me would be quick to point out before ISD n3rd edits it away.
It starts with an attempt to order and ends with complete censorship. The worse most subjective and inconsistent sort. This game is mostly populated by middle age, educated males... yet your post makes it sound like it's populated by unruly, pre-pubescent tantrum throughing morons.... I'm sure there is a middle ground, where the obnoxious minority are limited in a reasonable manner.... CCP has a history of letting long, venomous threads vent player frustrations over their business decisions and game design choices. Why do you think this is going to end??? If anything, setting up a clear set of guidelines on how ISD is to handle player outcry is a good thing, so long as it's not a blatant censorship of disenfranchised sentiments.
Sadly most trolls act like unruly, pre-pubescent tantrum throwng morons. Thats why there were threads banned and people warned etc.
There are a lot of forum warriors that have hissy fits because someone said no. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:50:00 -
[80] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:
Hi Crunchie Attuxors,
I want to address a few of your points if I may. Firstly, the ISD team have absolutely no banning powers whatsoever. All bans from the forums are issued by the Community team as are all new forum rules. The latest rules we have are to provide a better environment for Developers and players to talk. That is our primary goal.
It is to be expected that some volunteers (even seasoned CCP staff for that matter) will drop the ball from time to time. In regards to ISD members, I view this as a training opportunity to make these guys and girls better and ensure they communicate much more effectively with the Community.
Obviously we will continue to conduct audits and ensure that CCL members revive the best support possible from us to do the best possible job for everyone.
This was not "from time to time," that ISD had been exhibiting absolutely atrocious moderation for at least a week that I noticed, and other ISDs have been poor to (at best) middling, and I'm not usually all that observant of what happens upstream of the discussion front. If you didn't catch onto this well before it hit its boiling point yesterday, why should we have any confidence that you will catch onto it in the future?
I understand that the horrific quality of the moderation might be because the ISDs have their hands tied behind their back, but that doesn't excuse the result. Look at the way Zymurgist (I pick on him a lot because he's really good at moderation) ran the forums. A thread would be going haywire and he'd put it back on the rails without needing any edits or locks. This was because we respected him; not because he had a Blue tag (though that helps), but because over the course of his tenure, he proved, time and time again that he could handle himself and his mod powers.
I understand that volunteer moderation looks like a cheap way to keep your forums in line, but like someone said in another thread, EvE-O has managed to hold onto the bulk of discussion in a way that no other MMO forum has. This is because the rules have always been slightly lax. Look at the front page of GD. The "Like and Get Likes" thread, the "X the Avatar above you" threads all very clearly has no content, but they've been here since the new forums came out and they're here to stay.
You can moderate a forum this size in one of two ways. You can go with a light touch and a heaping helping of charm (call it, Zymurgisting), or you can try to crack down. The second way only works if you can lock and delete threads as fast, or faster than they can be created and you're willing to drive everyone off to forums that Zymurgist.
You've seen what trying to crack down does. You've seen what happens when you have moderators who have earned no personal respect trying to be heavy handed. And you've seen what happens when it gets out of hand.
Blue tags get you your foot in the door; we give you the benefit of the doubt which gives you some time to build up a reputation as a moderator. We know ISDs are EvE players and volunteers. We have certain ideas of what it means to be a volunteer at a for-profit company. ISDs have to hit the ground running and tiptoe very, very lightly until they can develop a reputation (which is impossible if, as I suspect, they're not allowed to talk normally on the forums).
*Tips for ISD Stensson: not everything that mentions your name is a personal attack, and rising to the bait and thanking people for their "support" is a really, really bad idea.* PS: If giving individual advice is a personal attack I'd post with my Main, but I don't think I'm allowed to, no matter how red his fortified wine is. |
|
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:55:00 -
[81] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Aryth wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:I am very disappointed with CCP.
For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.
It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.
Best regards, Vaju I think i have more reason than anyone to question CCP's vision of the sandbox right now. However, let it play out a bit before judging them. I am practicing what I preach. It's the end result we all want and sometimes the process is messy. Thanks for being pretty cool about it. New processes are always shaky to begin with and like we said, we're still learning.
Im willing to accept this apologie on the condition we can use "IBTS" without fear of being banned. |
Remigius Varagine
GONE RETARD BACK LATER Rise - Against
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:55:00 -
[82] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:
You are part of Goonswarm's target audience.
:get out:
Now I am confused.
What exactly are you trying to tell me? That only Goonswarm should be alowed to post, but not it's target audience? I don't think you mean that, but what do you mean?
I am merely asking for clarification.
Also, that was not a useful answer for my previous post. Could you please tell me what I read wrong?
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:56:00 -
[83] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Aryth wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:I am very disappointed with CCP.
For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.
It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.
Best regards, Vaju I think i have more reason than anyone to question CCP's vision of the sandbox right now. However, let it play out a bit before judging them. I am practicing what I preach. It's the end result we all want and sometimes the process is messy. Thanks for being pretty cool about it. New processes are always shaky to begin with and like we said, we're still learning.
Now, if you could just unlock the 4x4 thread once the blog hits that would be spiffy :) |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:58:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Holy One wrote:You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.
To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism! I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be. Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general.
The PL forums are pretty dang hostile and PL does alright. Same with Kugu.
The problem is that fair and reasonable discussions often have loud little outbreaks that are perfectly normal and can be reigned in by a quick, "Hey guize, let's calm this thing down before I have to lock it" from someone we have reason to respect.
At this point, it's going to take a long, long time for the ISD team to even hit the baseline. Maybe it's the fault of one rogue member, but as CCP knows, one member can do a lot of damage when it comes to reputation. If the CCL team is to be recovered, it needs to spend a long time on the forums learning how to calm threads down with words.
(And editing peoples posts [besides normal word filter stuff] is probably the worst thing you can do ever. Better off wiping the post out and sending a reason why.) I'd post with my Main, but I don't think I'm allowed to, no matter how red his fortified wine is. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
887
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:00:00 -
[85] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:... We're really sorry about all this. Like we said, we're still learning and didn't mean to provoke such a large back lash. We're more than willing to listen to you and get more involved in the community so we don't just seem to come out of nowhere and get all Judge Dredd on everyone.
+1 for reference to a terribly hilarious movie.
Anyway, we understand that you guys are not professionals... that is part of the problem. Learning takes time, so we do need some patience. But we also need some clue of why things were done (IMO being encouraged to discuss the moderation taken in private would be nice... as long as individuals remained civil). The one liners lead to a lot of confusion, especially when things seem to be overly moderated.
Keep learning, and maybe with CCP, the ISDs, and those of us in the community who want it to work out, we might be able to develop a system that works for everyone. Well, everyone that is reasonable. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
578
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:20:00 -
[86] - Quote
Remigius Varagine wrote: Now I am confused.
What exactly are you trying to tell me? That only Goonswarm should be alowed to post, but not it's target audience? I don't think you mean that, but what do you mean?
I am merely asking for clarification.
Also, that was not a useful answer for my previous post. Could you please tell me what I read wrong?
According to your corp, you've gone full ******. Never go full ******. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
541
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:29:00 -
[87] - Quote
It saddens me that CCP created the mess in the first place by letting the overall posting abuse get out of hand and now some volunteers are being used as scapegoats and peons to clean up the mess.
Howmany times have I seen posts containing the words, Jewgold, Spergs etc and all was fine.
Slowly the malignant abcess, they allowed to fester over the years, became so darn bloated that they themselves finally started to realise that the socalled freedom they allowed is and will be subjected to various degrees of abuse, insults, hatred and verbal vomitting. Growing up doesn't mean you can only see your own freedom but also how to not limit other people's freedoms by overrunning them with yours.
So CCL will become a reality, even though we can already predict the outcome over time.
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:33:00 -
[88] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:It saddens me that CCP created the mess in the first place by letting the overall posting abuse get out of hand and now some volunteers are being used as scapegoats and peons to clean up the mess.
Howmany times have I seen posts containing the words, Jewgold, Spergs etc and all was fine.
Those posts aren't what this was about. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Remigius Varagine
GONE RETARD BACK LATER Rise - Against
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:34:00 -
[89] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Remigius Varagine wrote: Now I am confused.
What exactly are you trying to tell me? That only Goonswarm should be alowed to post, but not it's target audience? I don't think you mean that, but what do you mean?
I am merely asking for clarification.
Also, that was not a useful answer for my previous post. Could you please tell me what I read wrong?
According to your corp, you've gone full ******. Never go full ******. I am glad you noticed that :) But I still would be happy if you could answer my questions. English is my second language, so please enlighten me where I went wrong. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
200
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:54:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Does this mean we have to put our posts calling our enemies and their shipfits stupid in CAOD now? What about if their posts are terrible outside of CAOD?
I mean, if I can kill someone because they do dumb things on a repeated basis over a period of time, I think it is reasonable to say "Hey, you are dumb, perhaps you should have fit a second civilian autocannon on your ratting carrier, and that way you will be less dumb."
Or will I forever have to go to that bastion of true posting outside of the EveO forums, that wretched hive of scum and villainy which cannot be named but yet everyone knows the name of already, if I wish to call someone dumb? Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'? As someone who frequents the forums you must surely be aware that giving out an insult generally results in getting an insult back thus setting up a cycle of deterioration in the thread. Do you feel that good threads being derailed in this manner benefits the community in general? Do you find that threads of these nature go on to become threads for the betterment of the community? Have you ever thought of instead of insulting the player in question that you might wish to help him/her instead? Now I realize this is not going to be a heavenly forum where people constantly Hi 5 and hug each other but surely starting posts with calling people dumb is the very definition of non-productive. I ask this because I am genuinely curious. Yep, that's exactly why I leave all my insults until right at the end of the post. There should be a rather awesome pic here |
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
313
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:02:00 -
[91] - Quote
Now that we have someone from CCP reading this thread here is the petition I sent in just before the justifiable anger and updated during the silliness.
Quote:Hi guys,
I gotta say this recruitment drive is hauling a poor crop indeed. Check out this one:
(link removed by me)
No empathy - check. No effort at all to help - check. Immediately close the user's thread without any chance for the community to help - check. Link the customer to an already closed thread - check.
Forums are to communicate and to lessen the burden of support - basically the cost of it. If you empower a group of drones who fail to understand that they at some level need to represent your company as well as mindlessly apply "rules" then you are doing yourself a great disservice.
Why you even let them say "rules" is beyond me. Forum moderation is 100% subjective and dependent on infinite combinations of context. Make your people say "guidelines". Semantically the same thing, provides infinite wriggle room and is not as confrontational to the customer.
Who is educating your moderators?
Moderators should be polite, but firm. Most importantly they should give the customer a feeling they appreciate their position, even if they privately could not care less.
I have no idea where you are getting these people, but Gods you are creating a miserable time for yourself down the tracke And during the madness...Quote:And now as you can see by looking at the forum he has lost all control and all respect.-á
Exactly what you don't want from someone representing you.-á
A simple rule with this large forum game, there are always more of them with less to lose than you. You need to have moderators who can win the mob to win the day.-á
Time is money. A settled forum is a cheap forum.-á
Without finesse unimaginative volunteer moderators just create a mess that paid employees need to clean up. And here we are just as I predicted.
I have views on forum moderation and in particular games forums built up over many years and to me CCP is demonstrating a text book case of how you can repeatedly fumble the ball in this area. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
541
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:33:00 -
[92] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
Those posts aren't what this was about.
Ah, so you're a firm believer that all headaches need an asperine, no need to look at the whole picture.
|
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:34:00 -
[93] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:The problem with stupid people is that they don't realize they're stupid. "The" problem? I don't think I agree with that. I'll agree that it is one of the problems, but I'm certain we can all agree that failing to recognize their own condition is a second place prize behind having the condition itself. (Sorry for the stilted language; I'm trying to avoid repeating the insult while still agreeing with the sentiment.)
I'm uncertain if this is an appropriate place to ask this (if not, please be gentle with your rebukes), but can someone (CCP or ISD) please explain the CCL volunteer interviewing & vetting process? I would have imagined that prior moderation experience (with *evidence*) be required. If so, then is someone looking into how that interview/vetting failed to screen out the apparent non-performing volunteer(s)?
MDD |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
164
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:48:00 -
[94] - Quote
I appreciate the work the CCL is trying to accomplish with the help of CCP.
I personally avoid the more popular areas of the forums because of the trolling and the negative style posting. I do agree it is a sand box, but it is a multplayer sandbox and we must respect our neighbors and not to poop all over it. There are Places like Failheap Challenge and anothers where people can be as ugly as they like.
The only recourse I have when dealing with such vile posting on the eve forums, is to go to portions where the Trolls and other ugly poster frequent less. Now with CCL and CCP fighting back the tide of vile filth I can start coming back to the regular forms.
Thank You CCL and CCP. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:57:00 -
[95] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism!
First they came for the shitposters, and I did not speak out because I was not a shitposter.
Then they came for the immature morons, and I did not speak out because...
Nah, f*ck it, I'm fine with suppressing shitposters and immature morons.. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
548
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:09:00 -
[96] - Quote
Remigius Varagine wrote:So, you want to post in a way that makes other people stop playing EVE? On the forum that is owned by CCP (who wants to make money with EVE)? And you want an official stamp of approval from CCP for that sort of action?
I am just asking if I understand correctly what I was reading in your post. So please correct me if I got anything wrong. Thanks in advance. Stop playing EVE? No, we don't need our opponents to unsub, but undermining their confidence in their alliance to stop them from joining fleet the next time there's an ALL HANDS ON DECK RED PEN EVERYONE BE THERE op, sure.
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Syllviaa
Dominus Nex Angelus
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:12:00 -
[97] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:We are still a long way from being perfect, but we are trying to improve. We accept feedback that is constructive.
Unfortunately some members of your group did not share your opinion, which led to the whole debacle yesterday. It's not as though this was a one off incident, it had been going on for weeks. It's a shame it took such drastic measures for you to realise there was actually a problem. Freeing the people listed below after a month or so would be great too
Free CCP Zymurgist Free RubyPorto Free Talon SilverHawk Free Malacath Azaria IB4TS |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:32:00 -
[98] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Those posts aren't what this was about.
Ah, so you're a firm believer that all headaches need an asperine, no need to look at the whole picture.
You're looking at the color of the blood and missing the arterial spurting.
The ISDs were acting inappropriately towards constructive posts that were well within the historical norm of the forum when it was well moderated. The shiptosting riot came after that. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:35:00 -
[99] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote: We are still a long way from being perfect, but we are trying to improve. We accept feedback that is constructive.
I won't edit your words in my quote, but please be accurate:
"We Accept feedback now that the problem got loud" -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3750
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:36:00 -
[100] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:On the note of threads being locked for "going off-topic" - this is seriously poor moderation. It's one thing if the discussion has gone full circle and nothing good is coming out of it but that's not even in the same ballpark as "going off-topic." It's always the same badposters using the same sockpuppet NPC corp alts steering threads "off-topic" and getting what was previously a good discussion locked. This actually happens all the time and is extremely annoying. I had a thread infested with npc alts, and rather than deal with them ISD simply closed the thread for being "off-topic". |
|
None ofthe Above
278
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:00:00 -
[101] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:On the note of threads being locked for "going off-topic" - this is seriously poor moderation. It's one thing if the discussion has gone full circle and nothing good is coming out of it but that's not even in the same ballpark as "going off-topic." It's always the same badposters using the same sockpuppet NPC corp alts steering threads "off-topic" and getting what was previously a good discussion locked. This actually happens all the time and is extremely annoying. I had a thread infested with npc alts, and rather than deal with them ISD simply closed the thread for being "off-topic".
It could have been worse, the thread could have been infested by goons... oh wait.
Anyway. Totally agreed. As I posted earlier I think that's important to stop this practice.
|
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:09:00 -
[102] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.
.... not for high sec corporations and casual eve players. So maybe its another example where care bear gaming style collides with goon gaming style.
A new forum moderation has to acknowlegde the different demands of forum warriors and casual players. The former ones having a more polemic demand the latter ones having a more informativ demand
...and btw. moderating CSM threads (and podcasts) is also needed but is a highly sensitive affair.
|
Syllviaa
Dominus Nex Angelus
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:18:00 -
[103] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.
.... not for high sec corporations and casual eve players.
Actually it is, you just need to learn how to utilise it.
Free CCP Zymurgist, RubyPorto, Talon SilverHawk, Karl Hobb, Malacath Azaria -Mallak Azaria (Soon to be free) -Malacath Azaria IB4TS |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:27:00 -
[104] - Quote
Syllviaa wrote:Kyshonuba wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.
.... not for high sec corporations and casual eve players. Actually it is, you just need to learn how to utilise it.
I am all ears
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2543
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:34:00 -
[105] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker.
Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers. Let me be totally blunt to you Mara Tessidar. Your alliance mates made up the nonsense you are happily posting. As far as I know nobody in Eve has roleplayed a "spacehooker" and you continuing to peddle a clumsy lie just seems like desperate attempted bluster every time you end up losing a debate or argument on these forums.
Sometimes you just need to stop and think about what you are posting rather than blindly echoing the things posted on your alliance wiki. Posting RL pictues of eve players there and accusing them of child abuse and pedophilia might well be an accepted practise on Something Awful forums but continually attempting to smear the RL reputations of eve players is not something these forums should be a party to.
At this point you are the problem Mara Tessidar. And you are exactly the sort of person whose behaviour needs moderating on Eve online forums.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:35:00 -
[106] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.
.... not for high sec corporations and casual eve players.
Forum warfare got you the dozens of nerfs to HS violence that have happened over the years. I think it's been pretty useful to that crowd. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Lord Zim
952
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:36:00 -
[107] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:At this point, it's going to take a long, long time for the ISD team to even hit the baseline. Maybe it's the fault of one rogue member, but as CCP knows, one member can do a lot of damage when it comes to reputation. If the CCL team is to be recovered, it needs to spend a long time on the forums learning how to calm threads down with words.
(And editing peoples posts [besides normal word filter stuff] is probably the worst thing you can do ever. Better off wiping the post out and sending a reason why.) I'm going to just second this. I wouldn't be surprised if I've got a few of my posts which have been edited (since I've posted a lot, and I'm not trying to **** up everyone's backside by being mr politically correct), but I have no idea since I don't go back and read my own posts to see if I've "broken any ISD rules".
It would probably help if the ISD moderation involves stealth-editing, that there's a way for us to see that at a glance. Or some way of being notified. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:40:00 -
[108] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:At this point, it's going to take a long, long time for the ISD team to even hit the baseline. Maybe it's the fault of one rogue member, but as CCP knows, one member can do a lot of damage when it comes to reputation. If the CCL team is to be recovered, it needs to spend a long time on the forums learning how to calm threads down with words.
(And editing peoples posts [besides normal word filter stuff] is probably the worst thing you can do ever. Better off wiping the post out and sending a reason why.) I'm going to just second this. I wouldn't be surprised if I've got a few of my posts which have been edited (since I've posted a lot, and I'm not trying to **** up everyone's backside by being mr politically correct), but I have no idea since I don't go back and read my own posts to see if I've "broken any ISD rules". It would probably help if the ISD moderation involves stealth-editing, that there's a way for us to see that at a glance. Or some way of being notified.
Better yet, don't stealth edit. It makes you look like you're hiding (again, blanking out curse words, we understand). -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
360
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:41:00 -
[109] - Quote
I would like to see a more structured rule system rather than the very vague ones used now.
A post that mutates into another for a few pages is not necessarily off topic but just a different tangent people feel needs to be discussed.
As to the rumor rule a clarification as to this would be great. Does it cover any rumor at all or just rumors about CCP its self. I ask this as the entire crap posting CSM interference I ran earlier this year was entirely based on rumors. If we cannot use any rumors it will be boring and would give an unfair advantage to people who are not members of Goonswarm, in the next CSM election. We would have so many facts to throw against them while they will have very few to throw back. Otherwise all the CSM discussions will be is Goonswarm say something not proven as a fact and next you have 5 posts saying "Rumor ban the Goon". Then what will you do, as the rules in there present form state that rumors are a banable offense. All it will lead to is factual statements of CCP favoring one alliance over the rest of the game or a lot of pissed goons.
Also the moderators will need to be more attentive when closing duplicate threads, as they have already closed threads that were similar but not actually the same on this forum. It may seem a trivial point but when you are arguing for something not exactly the same as another person the threads get badly distorted if they have to be placed in the same thread. And frankly I feel like scum when I usurp someone else's thread(Unintentionally)
I welcome CCP's willingness to discuss these matters even though the fact that some people had to get banned first to show what was wrong was not a good step in the right direction.
A lot of people are still distrusting after last summers atrocities and frankly you cannot blame them. CCP lost a lot of trust and respect in those dark days and while the forums need moderation, a slow increase over time would have been a better way rather than trying to change them all at once.
Please unban those who were banned to get us to this level of communication as a sign of good faith and a willingness to learn from your mistakes. (Although I must say we are not blameless in this)
Thank you again for talking about this and hopefully saving this forum from obscurity. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1375
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:55:00 -
[110] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I would like to see a more structured rule system rather than the very vague ones used now.
A post that mutates into another for a few pages is not necessarily off topic but just a different tangent people feel needs to be discussed.
As to the rumor rule a clarification as to this would be great. Does it cover any rumor at all or just rumors about CCP its self. I ask this as the entire crap posting CSM interference I ran earlier this year was entirely based on rumors. . You getting really weird and creepy whiteknighting Issler Dainze for CSM wasn't a "rumor". |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
360
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:59:00 -
[111] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I would like to see a more structured rule system rather than the very vague ones used now.
A post that mutates into another for a few pages is not necessarily off topic but just a different tangent people feel needs to be discussed.
As to the rumor rule a clarification as to this would be great. Does it cover any rumor at all or just rumors about CCP its self. I ask this as the entire crap posting CSM interference I ran earlier this year was entirely based on rumors. . You getting really weird and creepy whiteknighting Issler Dainze for CSM wasn't a "rumor". Your very right. Given the number of people who play EvE from the United states and after watching the South Park episode on Terrorism. I wanted to know if the joke about people from the United States was true. Also a comment Made by Jeremy Clarkson about the matting habits of the people of the United States and vegetables made me want to know more.
Well the result of the election pretty much turned that from a Joke to a Fact. Thanks for taking part in the Study
Oh so yes your allegation of white knighting was a rumor not a fact and as I said above "Rumor Ban Him" Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
179
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:06:00 -
[112] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: 'Crap posts' are not necessarily a problem. Abusive, spiteful and hateful posts most certainly are.
Then CCP Navigator, I'd suggest that the CCLs type the words "excessive off topic, " "lack of content," and "no content" much less frequently.
A minority of the threads locked in recent days have been due to hateful, personal attacks.
Edits abound.
I tend to agree with the idea that posts currently being locked for trolling or lack of content be moved to another section and moderated there only for personal attacks and language instead of being locked. I'd at least like to see them moved off the first page of GD. When I log onto the forums, seeing a half dozen topics locked on page one does not give me the impression this is a place full of freely-expressed ideas. It's disturbing.
And self-moderation by the community would seem simple. Add a "dislike" button to GD. Maybe even have posts auto-minimized if they receive a certain percentage of total dislikes to remove them from the flow of conversation. Add a value for "Dislikes received: " under the character avatars. If likes matter, why wouldn't dislikes? CCLs still wouldn't be able to base moderating decisions solely on these values, but it could be a useful tool in deciding what the forum thinks of a poster with 10,000 dislikes and 14 likes. It's these highly-subjective, individual CCL determinations on content that seem to be the problem. That hammer should be a little heavier to wield.
If there's this many topics with no content, CCP sent the CCLs into a cockroach infested home with a can of Raid. And a couple of them are spraying anything that twitches.
I still think that no matter what kind of content they're contributing, if players are posting on CCPs forums, they're not spending time doing something else. Those customers shouldn't be routinely censured without any expressive outlet available.
Keep this as the informational forum. Moderate it as necessary. Devs can post in forum high-sec, spam-free nirvana. But I think there's room for purely-entertainment posts too. Construct "The Void." You can even initially ban players there instead of from all forums. Maintain a seedier, forum underbelly. Give players options. Some players take trolling to an art form. They need a bridge to live under, i.e. a low-sec version of the forums.
Gagging customers in this way is bad PR no matter the justification.
Yonis Kador "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
229
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:19:00 -
[113] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:
Hi Crunchie Attuxors,
I want to address a few of your points if I may. Firstly, the ISD team have absolutely no banning powers whatsoever. All bans from the forums are issued by the Community team as are all new forum rules. The latest rules we have are to provide a better environment for Developers and players to talk. That is our primary goal.
It is to be expected that some volunteers (even seasoned CCP staff for that matter) will drop the ball from time to time. In regards to ISD members, I view this as a training opportunity to make these guys and girls better and ensure they communicate much more effectively with the Community.
Obviously we will continue to conduct audits and ensure that CCL members revive the best support possible from us to do the best possible job for everyone.
I had a large post I was about to hit enter on, but realized it would just get me banned. Talking about mystifying 10 hour bans, with no notification, and my subsequent petition that completely evaporated is bannable.
Your crew is out of control, and my worst fears detailed in posts from last week in the CCL recruitment thread have all come to pass. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1376
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:29:00 -
[114] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: so yes your allegation of white knighting was a rumor not a fact and as I said above "Rumor Ban Him" Actually that makes the white knighting fact and your post-sperg damage control fall under the realm of 'rumor' sooo... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1376
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:29:00 -
[115] - Quote
dbl post |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
360
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:05:00 -
[116] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Frying Doom wrote: so yes your allegation of white knighting was a rumor not a fact and as I said above "Rumor Ban Him" Actually that makes the white knighting fact and your post-sperg damage control fall under the realm of 'rumor' sooo... And sperg being one of the things they should get rid of. Pointless attacks on the disabled and racial groups should be the first thing to go. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:05:00 -
[117] - Quote
I wish there was an Ignore person on forums. And then if a person who is placed on ignore often enough become Auto ignore. If I loved reading these Auto ignore people, I could click the button, but that would be my choice.
A video by Extra Credits Brought this idea up in a video the was brain storming on how to empower the community to police out the poo posters from mainstream communication in FPS. While allowing those Poo posters to be heard by those people who selected to listen to poo posters.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment
If something like this could be implemented I think the forums would have a nice rose covered out side look and for those who wanted the hate, garbage, and filth could simply dig down for it.
To get this to work would take a while to build the data points so it would be tough to meta game the mechanic.
First CCL and CCP would be the only ones registering the ignore votes. As time proceeds only those with XXX amount of Valuable Posts would have their ignore votes towards the auto ignore count. If a scam does pop out, then the mechanism can be reversed by the volunteers if they deem that the auto ignore had been meta gamed, and those who chose to be apart of that unfair play would have their votes of ignore not count towards auto ignore.
To prevent abuse of the Alts posting poo, or temp accounts poo posting, The auto ignore would hit all alts of that account, Accounts have to be a certain age before being allowed into certain sections, this process can be sped up by Valued posts, A post with X amount of likes or non poo replys
This in the end would Make the volunteers life a lot easier and would not block free speech, just remove the mega phone! Allowing those of us who don't want meadow muffins piles in our sandbox, an ability to filter it out.
COAD would be an interesting place to be a test bed.
Just my 2 Cents... as 5000 players press the "Ignore Gevlin" Key on their key board. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:36:00 -
[118] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:And self-moderation by the community would seem simple. Add a "dislike" button to GD. Maybe even have posts auto-minimized if they receive a certain percentage of total dislikes to remove them from the flow of conversation.
God, no. With the amount of metagaming that goes on in the forums, you're effectively giving the larger alliances the censorstick instead of the ISDs. Dunno about you, but I know who I trust more.. |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:42:00 -
[119] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
Now, if you could just unlock the 4x4 thread once the blog hits that would be spiffy :)
Eve forums have new rules aryth.
-º 28b: Once a week any eve account may start a forum thread with up to 100 pages -º 28c: Once the threads exceeds 100 pages topic starter has to pay a certain amount of LP's to keep it open. -º28d: Calculation formula used is ...
Base thread LP Cost = (Base thread pages)-¦ X (Number of posts + Number of Quotes) X 10 000 LP thread Cost = Base LP Cost X Faction member posts
Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
180
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 04:00:00 -
[120] - Quote
daveo911 wrote:in before lock?
for no content? lol
Gevlin wrote:I wish there was an Ignore person on forums. And then if a person who is placed on ignore often enough become Auto ignore. If I loved reading these Auto ignore people, I could click the button, but that would be my choice.
lets just make all of Goons mods then... http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 04:20:00 -
[121] - Quote
Meh I would volunteer myself but the first thing I would end up doing is banning myself from the forum. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 04:21:00 -
[122] - Quote
Delen Ormand wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:And self-moderation by the community would seem simple. Add a "dislike" button to GD. Maybe even have posts auto-minimized if they receive a certain percentage of total dislikes to remove them from the flow of conversation. God, no. With the amount of metagaming that goes on in the forums, you're effectively giving the larger alliances the censorstick instead of the ISDs. Dunno about you, but I know who I trust more..
I know where the larger alliance's players loyalties lie. Can't say the same thing about the anonymous CCL ISDs. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
179
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 05:06:00 -
[123] - Quote
Haha. I'm just saying I've seen self-moderation in forums where it does work. The basic idea might need to be tweaked here because of the participation of organized groups, but I don't think it's impossible if that's the route CCP eventually takes. I have no doubt EvE players will attempt to manipulate any mechanic to their own benefit. That's the game. If there's a benefit. I didn't imagine there would be consequences to accumulating dislikes, so I failed to anticipate predictions of abuse. Why then aren't large alliances spamming each other's "like" buttons now?
The people in the forums with the most "likes" atm seem to usually know what they're talking about.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1662
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 05:13:00 -
[124] - Quote
well, thank you CCP and Navigator for creating this thread.
This is how community issues should be discussed, not in the petition stack
I personally have issues with community members moderating the forums of a for-profit company as Ruby pointed out. Considering the meta gaming, general tinfoilhattery, and backstabbing that goes on in EvE I think this is just a whole lot of trouble waiting to happen (no offense to the few ISDs I haven't offended yet)
Also I just can't see how needing 2 sets of babysitters -one for the babies and one for the sitters- is making the situation better for CCP.
One thing I'll note is that these lovely forums come with a nifty report tool, if the community feels that the forums are out of hand we are free to use that button, I can't again see the value of preemptive strikes against threads and their on topic content because a mod thinks someone may be offended or feel abused, if they felt that way they can report the thread.
The ISD should be there (if at all) to back up the community and assist it an maintaining a suitable level of community interaction, with its good points and its bad points.
I've said time and time again if the noise on the forums is getting to out of control its probably for a reason, and probably because you failed to please the customers, and rolling out some sort of riot squad to beat down dissent is going to get you nowhere fast. Otherwise I feel EvE-O is a vibrant fun forum where the metagame is king and even the useless spam posts are sometimes worth reading.
So what if we rag on each other and call each other stupid poopyheads? in a game where you can lose a year's worth of profit just by undocking I would hope most of us have developed a somewhat thicker skin than being offended because someone calls you a shitposting pubbie, Especially when you are in fact being a shitposting pubbie
Yes I can see the point of view of the marketing department that the forums should seem friendlier, but the simple fact will be that they are not friendlier, anymore than eve is a happy friendly little jolly time farm game. People will come in and post some dreck because they fail to grasp a mechanic or concept (I've done it plenty of times) and someone else will tell them they are terrible at life, no matter how many mods you have standing by. Sure its a great idea, but the reality is EvE just isn't that kind of place, and the forums are simply a mirror of that place.
I think my main point id if you wish to continue on this course, your game plan should be to maintain order and not go gallivanting off on some holy crusade.
One last note, I support the call that any personnel involved in the civil action last night should receive amnesty as they were fighting for their community from a perceved threat from outside "You were the chosen one Anakin, you were supposed to bring order to the galaxy, not destroy it!" -Obi Wan (Ben) Kenobi -á |
Garven Dreis
Count With Teddy Mercenaries Stay Calm Don't Panic
52
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 05:17:00 -
[125] - Quote
I definitely approve of this. In Manticore we Trust |
black cree
Utopian Research I.E.L.
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 05:51:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'?
Mara Tessidar wrote:[quote=vasuul] The problem with stupid people is that they don't realize they're stupid.
Dunning Kruger effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect |
Nastrado
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 05:52:00 -
[127] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: I know nobody in Eve has roleplayed a "spacehooker" and you continuing to peddle a clumsy lie just seems like desperate attempted bluster every time you end up losing a debate or argument on these forums.
That's right not a space hooker just the madame of a space brothel with your the alts all being "receptionists" at said brothel
http://web.archive.org/web/20040724180503/http://www.mordante.demon.co.uk/Maison.htm |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 06:00:00 -
[128] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker. Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication
Because you see, we fabricated an internet archive link of your old website. http://web.archive.org/web/20040724180503/http://www.mordante.demon.co.uk/Maison.htm
Jade Constantine wrote:
LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS
Is open for business and pleasure. This is a moderated but open channel for Gallente, Intaki and invited guests (and respectful blind-dates) to chat and socialise about the politics and pleasures of the day. This is intended to be interesting, vibrant, sometimes edgy, but always respectful and totally lacking in boorish nonsense. Top secret plans will doubtless be discussed in other channels so it won't be neccessary to infiltrate simply for the purpose of listening.
Ideally we would hope to attract guests and friends from all walks and life and the various cultures of Eve. War may rage and intrigues may scream beyond the walls but "La Maison" continues as the music plays, the champagne flows and the girls make eyes at bold spacers and charming rogues alike!
So long as decorum is respected, we make no barring rules against anyone in Eve. The Gallente Federation has a reputation for cosmopolitan culture and permissive inclusion, and its our desire to prove this out with a multi-cultural gallente-hosted nightspot for the rich and famous, the clever and the cunning, and all the most notorious and deadly personalities of Eve.
"La Maison" is a virtual club that exists in the cyberspace of Eve star cluster's myriad interconnected datastreams. This miracle of communications technology interfaces the Pod systems of starship command to provide an entirely lifelike and responsive environment to portray personna and action in the company of other neurologically attuned individuals.
The near instantaeneous transmission of data and response means distance is no limiter to access, while the profound neural interface of the command Pod translates perceived stimuli to entirely recognisable physical forms.
In essence one may live the environment of the virtual club; it is entirely possible to become drunk, overwhelmed by sensation or indeed rendered insensible by sudden violence. Thus we warn the patron that such happenstance neccessitates the adoption of sensible precautions when sharing this reality with the dangers of real-space and external physical interaction.
And of course; the management of "La Maison" accepts no burden of responsibility for loss of starships and personal possessions when under the influence of stimuli in the virtual environment.
To access this marvel of Gallente technology and cultural artistry you have only to open your subspace communications panel, and enter the magic phrase ... LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS
Or, even better, have an existing guest invite you; how better to arrive than on the arm of a charming regular to this enchanting locale?
First and foremost, "La Maison" is a roleplaying environment of specific interest to aficionados of the genre, and declares primary responsibility to the regular clientele and comfort and entertainment therein. Disruption of the mood by boorish behaviour or evocation of crass reality will not be tolerated under any circumstance.
Punishment of infractions will be immediate and severe, with a warning, then gagging, then banning from the channel being the eventual result. Continued attempts to disrupt the channel will be awarded with harrassment petitions and general derision on the part of our clientele.
Conduct-wise; please be respectful of fellow guests, and though it is entirely likely you will find yourselves in the presence of those holding contradictory and indeed, hostile, ideologies and political beliefs, be sure to engage in debate with an eye on civility and respectable decorum. Remember that the Gallente Federation is an open and permissive society and few quirks and pecadillos are frowned upon save narrow-minded prejudice and inflexible dogma.
With regard to privacy; be aware that "La Maison" is a semi-public environment that plays host to many members of the galactic press and as such, may not be considered a secure location for personal and political secrets. If you are not happy with the prospect of your words and actions becoming potential public property then it is likely you have come to the wrong place! (Private rooms can of course be conjured at the discretion of consenting partners, and groups of intimate friends).
Jade Constantine Mistress of the Golden Chamber: JF
Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Jovin Ketils Psychosexual Battlefield Therapist: JF
An experienced slave of love, aquired her former masters fortunes in a play of desire. Hostess of passionate soiree's in her Chalet, enticing her guests to acts of ecstacy and lust with sensous cocktail concoctions. Carrying a child for the notorious Wencher Hardin she dreams of a future beyond imperial delusions in the aegis of Jericho Fraction and the free stars of hope and high aspiration.
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 06:02:00 -
[129] - Quote
As a compromise to CCP Navigator, we will henceforth refrain from calling people dumb.
We shall simply point out that they suffer from the Dunning Kruger Effect. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
584
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 06:08:00 -
[130] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker. Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers. Let me be totally blunt to you Mara Tessidar. Your alliance mates made up the nonsense you are happily posting. As far as I know nobody in Eve has roleplayed a "spacehooker" and you continuing to peddle a clumsy lie just seems like desperate attempted bluster every time you end up losing a debate or argument on these forums. Sometimes you just need to stop and think about what you are posting rather than blindly echoing the things posted on your alliance wiki. Posting RL pictues of eve players there and accusing them of child abuse and pedophilia might well be an accepted practise on Something Awful forums but continually attempting to smear the RL reputations of eve players is not something these forums should be a party to. At this point you are the problem Mara Tessidar. And you are exactly the sort of person whose behaviour needs moderating on Eve online forums if the environment is to be improved for everyone.
You have committed--would have committed, even if you had never set pen to paper, or finger to key--the essential crime that contains all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, we call it. Thoughtcrime is not a thing that can be concealed forever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later we are bound to get you. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
|
Tug McLub
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 06:31:00 -
[131] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Spin. What you want CCP is a closed environment where naysayers and critics can be snuffed out in favour of rabid fanbois.
You want to avoid what has happened the last three years with your terrible expansions - people vocally and vociferously criticising your business decisions and the individuals responsible for them.
You want censorship and control and those two things will only result in a polarisation of game design and false confidence in your feedback quality and bias. Historically the Eve 'community' has been quick and sharp to point out your poor business and game design decisions and has been highly critical at key times in your business direction - which has saved you on several occasions.
The new 'direction' is merely going to result in an extension of the hubris bubble we see historically you like to perpetuate internally. Over time you will drive away anyone who disagrees with the 'herd' and force them to take their concerns and their passion to 'other' forums which your staff have no interest in monitoring.
Every entertainment media developer who has in the past opted for a highly moderated environment has seen their communities stagnate and whither. If you deny Evil Online's true nature and ignore those many tens of thousands of individuals who decry the constant and ham fisted attempts to destroy their faith in you, instead opting to surround yourself with sycophants, pedants and casuals: goooood fight.
Eve is hard. It is also full of foul mouthed bad people. Your business model as a niche product catering to Evil Online wannabes, results in an libertarian, highly vocal and irreverent player base. If you allow the closed ranks of the bears to drone out any dissenters then I predict sad and embarrassing things for you as a company going forward.
You won't make Eve stronger or the game better or attract more carebears by excluding the very hard core nucleous of angry, anti social and vocal nerds who prop up this mmo from populating and shitting up your forums. Whoever it is that has had this brain fart of 'micro' managing away all criticism of your operating procedures, policies and decision making processes, doesn't get it. In just the very same sad and predictable way people like me would be quick to point out before ISD n3rd edits it away.
It starts with an attempt to order and ends with complete censorship. The worse most subjective and inconsistent sort.
^^ This exactly!!! Hey CCP, you aren't trying to tone it down so you can sell to Sony are you? just wondering.... |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
549
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 06:31:00 -
[132] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker. Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers.
As I've told you before Jade, you're in no position to be throwing stones on this issue since the same happened to CCP Sreegs in his former job after he clashed with you on these very forums and the CSM.
You're trying to have your cake and eat it: Somebody goes to your employer and tells them embarrassing stories about what you supposedly do on the internet, you yell from every rooftop that its a Goonswarm conspiracy and we as an alliance are collectively to blame. Somebody does the same to Sreegs and you throw your hands up and say 'nothing to do with me or my alliance, could have been anyone, its a big internet out there'. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1129
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 08:01:00 -
[133] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker. Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers. As I've told you before Jade, you're in no position to be throwing stones on this issue since the same happened to CCP Sreegs in his former job after he clashed with you on these very forums and the CSM. You're trying to have your cake and eat it: Somebody goes to your employer and tells them embarrassing stories about what you supposedly do on the internet, you yell from every rooftop that its a Goonswarm conspiracy and we as an alliance are collectively to blame. Somebody does the same to Sreegs and you throw your hands up and say 'nothing to do with me or my alliance, could have been anyone, its a big internet out there'. A big internet... needs big kids
And big kids have big kid RPing I guess. EVE is ... well versed in the worldly arts.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 08:25:00 -
[134] - Quote
Sounds like a plan.
Please just do not cut, snip and delete too much in C&P as it is a habitat of endemic species that adapted this section of the forums. If you destroy their habitat a species either dies out or it will find other places to dwell...like GD...and nobody wants to read certain things in GD... What happens in C&P stays in C&P...capisce? (Wow that was even more RP than Eve Fiction contains)
|
Kristan Konraden
The Hatchery Team Liquid
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 08:59:00 -
[135] - Quote
+1 to Mr. Kerner's statement
The locking of the "Unfair Moltden Heath LSeC Wardecs" thread without prior warning was not very respectful to the many people that actually discussed things. Especially in C&P you will find a good amount of troll postings between actual content. But regular C&P readers also have their troll filter skills trained well. Don't give idiots the ability to get highly active threads locked just by issuing some rather bad troll postings.
I also respect that there should be areas on this forum where a more strict form of moderating should be applied. My suggestion is to make clear which parts of the forum are moderated strictly and which parts are moderated in a more laid back fashion.
In any case locking a thread with actual content without prior general - or better personal - warning is a bad form of moderation IMHO. If a thread overheats too quick a temporary lock is always better than a quick perma lock. |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
154
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 09:20:00 -
[136] - Quote
How about two seperated group of ISDs? One who specialized on forum behaviour second in game?
Maybe im wrong but i think some ISDs are overloaded with stres form playes havaviour in game, even they volunteer doesn't mean they are robots with undestroyable psyche.
They work realy hard in game they have a lot to sort, we know even in rooki chanels here a lot trols and spamers, any one thinking about this aspect of thier work ? Maybe they become very obsesed and pointed - strictness to players, and by this reason they lock more legitimate therads ? Teemo for president. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
318
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 09:28:00 -
[137] - Quote
Cloned S0ul wrote:How about two seperated group of ISDs? One who specialized on forum behaviour second in game?
Maybe im wrong but i think some ISDs are overloaded with stres form playes havaviour in game, even they volunteer doesn't mean they are robots with undestroyable psyche.
They work realy hard in game they have a lot to sort, we know even in rooki chanels here a lot trols and spamers, any one thinking about this aspect of thier work ? Maybe they become very obsesed and pointed - strictness to players, and by this reason they lock more legitimate therads ?
It already works like that. Fix FW ! |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 09:40:00 -
[138] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Delen Ormand wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:And self-moderation by the community would seem simple. Add a "dislike" button to GD. Maybe even have posts auto-minimized if they receive a certain percentage of total dislikes to remove them from the flow of conversation. God, no. With the amount of metagaming that goes on in the forums, you're effectively giving the larger alliances the censorstick instead of the ISDs. Dunno about you, but I know who I trust more.. I know where the larger alliance's players loyalties lie. Can't say the same thing about the anonymous CCL ISDs.
That sounds like you're arguing that the ISDs should be openly metagaming because not laying bare their motivations is somehow worse? I really can't see the sense in that. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
207
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 10:09:00 -
[139] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Rer Eirikr wrote:Okay, I'm going to ask before I say anything else, because I really don't wanna say something I'm not allowed to say.* Can I discuss "that one website that starts with a K" and its forum moderation? If I can, and I will do so with the utmost care, I'd like to compare and contrast the moderation, the allowance of insults/etc., and the discussions that form as a result.
*No pun or rib intended here, I'm honestly just going slow on this one. No, not really. I fail to see what another forum does has any relation to this forum. For example, if you were banned on Failheap should I extend that ban here so that we are in harmony? Would you find something of this nature to be fair? I would certainly not. The rules of other forums, what they allow or do not allow is completely up to those communities and their administrators. These other forums matter because they are the signs of your failures.
3rd party sites don't become successful "by accident" - they have to overcome several significant disadvantages to become successful (far fewer readers/posters than eve-o initially, no institutional checks & balances on forum mods, no chance of dev/GM replies to any posts, ...) and can only achieve success through eve-o failing to deliver whatever they have to offer.
Sometimes the shortcomings that 3rd party sites try to fix are a a lack of features - e.g. we probably wouldn't have eveger.de if eve-o hadn't taken 9 years to open a German forum section.
But more often than not the issue that drives people away from eve-o seems to be forum moderation:
Aries Acheron wrote:Forum Wars: Scrapheap Challenge Is it better than the Eve Forums?
In a word, yes. The Scrapheap Challenge forums are every damn thing that the Eve Online forums should be. Thanks to actually having rules against bullshit like alt posting, unrestricted political smacktalk and downright lying, the SHC forums are a bastion of light compared to the blistering cesspool of internet spaceship dung that are the Eve Online Forums.
[...]
Largely, it just seems that SHC is the best parts of E-O with only a small amount of the bad. Because of itGÇÖs more exclusive membership, active modding and intelligent, generally laid back posters, itGÇÖs just a downright better place. Sign up now, but donGÇÖt be a moron and ruin it for the rest of us, mmmkay?
Quote:This is the first & only uncensored EVE Online Forum... This is the premier site for airing EVE Online's dirty laundry. Kugutsumen was started by the disenfranchised AnthonyZ, who was permanently banned from EVE Online following his much-publicized revelation of a CCP developer cheating on behalf of his alliance.
Quote:What is [email protected]?Backstage is a place for EVE players to discuss aspects of EVE-Online, particularly as they pertain to role-playing, in an open and mature environment. Old and new, pirate and bear - all are welcome! Our intention is to offer a culture that encourages discussion over argument and mutual respect over enmity through the use of clear posting guidelines along with explanations of what is considered acceptable and unacceptable; meaningful discussion is to be valued above theatrics and hyperbolic argument in pursuit of 'winning' threads.. The main idea here is that while IC people might be enemies, the forum is OOC and as such people should act like adults discussing their mutual hobby.
I didn't dig deep enough to find the rationale for the existence of chatsubo - but at least their (ultimately unsuccessful) attempt at creating an IC forum was also due to gripes with moderation on the eve-o IGS (e.g. linkage).
Bad forum moderation is what drives people to 3rd party sites and by doing so threatens to fracture the eve community.
I think the most impressive negative example of such developments are the Blizzard' battle.net forums. If I am interested in SC2 I go to teamliquid.net. If I am generally interested in WoW I go to mmo-champion.com. If I am interested in WoW PvE & theorycrafting I go elitistjerks.com. If I am interested in WoW PvP I go to arenajunkies.com. If I want to recruit for my WoW guild I go to tankspot.com, elitistjerks.com and mmo-champion.com. If I am interested in Diablo 3 I go to mmo-champion.com or diablofans.com.
Left on the battle.net forums are only the newbies who don't know any better and a couple of MVPs who desperately try to keep the forums alive.
(Also notice how one company [Curse] operates three of the sites I just mentioned - they recognized the business opportunity provided by Blizzard's near complete failure in community management.)
Now, luckily EVE is not in that state just yet - a lot of the relevant eve-related discussion still happens on eve-o itself. I attribute this (partial) success mostly to the flexibility with which the forum moderators have handled the enforcement of forum rules in the different subforums in the past, accomodating the individual "style" of each one. Sadly the new ISD moderators seem to lack this crucial sensitivity.
Always enforcing the forum rules down to a t may work fine for the Market Discussions forum (well, unless you start treating IPO/Loan threads as "selling services" or "begging") but you could (for example) never hope to keep the C&P community on eve-o if you would decide to go down that road.
And, as the German/Russian language communities show, once you lost one subcommunity to a 3rd ... |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
207
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 10:09:00 -
[140] - Quote
I think it's best for everyone if the eve-o forums remain the "go to" place for eve-related news and informations. Finding everything in one place encourages the different subcommunities to intermingle and exchange ideas more easily, finding everything on CCP's eve-online.com makes it easier for new players to find relevant information and get a realistic impression of the eve community.
The existence of failheap-challenge, backstage, ... and especially the complete loss of null-sec news & discussion to kugu should serve as a warning example to CCP.
These "other forums" have a crucial relationship with eve-o: they are competitors and substitutes born out of eve-o's failures. |
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 10:22:00 -
[141] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:daveo911 wrote:in before lock? for no content? lol Gevlin wrote:I wish there was an Ignore person on forums. And then if a person who is placed on ignore often enough become Auto ignore. If I loved reading these Auto ignore people, I could click the button, but that would be my choice.
lets just make all of Goons mods then...
I would obviously prefer, for EvE Online forum moderation spots, Goons over Blizzard doctrined type of player.
This politically correct nonsense, let's all happy and make marshmallows is just not my thing. That's not why i play EvE Online, if i wanted that type of experience i wouldn't be here.
This video explains it all:
Steve Hughes... What's wrong with being offended?? He called me an idiot! Don't worry about it, he's a ****!
Vaju If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Mme Pinkerton
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 10:38:00 -
[142] - Quote
In my opinion the biggest simple improvements to forum moderation would be:
* rephrase any offending statements in an acceptable manner; the recent use of ----snip---- and ----edit---- often leaves posts incomprehensible.
* don't lock derailed threads, remove the derailing posts instead.
* make sure you understand the thread/post before taking any moderation action. It's extremely frustrating to see a reasonable discussion get locked because the moderator did obviously only skim the "offending" posts, failed to understand sarcasm or context, ...
In short, moderators, please, don't let your actions be determined by laziness or hurry. Try to teach by example and aim to reduce collateral damage above everything else. An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
313
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 10:44:00 -
[143] - Quote
Snippets from the last couple of days I loved.
ISD Athechu wrote:1) Petitions cannot be discussed on the forums per CCP Forum Rules (Rule 9)...
Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL... (whatever that means)
Graic Gabtar wrote:Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank.
ISD Athechu wrote:To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception.
CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. No Nav, don't worry. My perception is now very clear when it comes to the ISD.
Unhappy with an ISD action? Do what you need to do forum wise - up to you. However, your alternative avenues to complain are: [email protected] | [email protected]-á| [email protected] It might seem pointless at the time but CCP need to at least take the time to read it - and time is money. |
Lord Zim
954
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 11:03:00 -
[144] - Quote
Mme Pinkerton wrote:In my opinion the biggest simple improvements to forum moderation would be:
* rephrase any offending statements in an acceptable manner; the recent use of ----snip---- and ----edit---- often leaves posts incomprehensible.
* don't lock derailed threads, remove the derailing posts instead.
* make sure you understand the thread/post before taking any moderation action. It's extremely frustrating to see a reasonable discussion get locked because the moderator did obviously only skim the "offending" posts, failed to understand sarcasm or context, ...
In short, moderators, please, don't let your actions be determined by laziness or hurry. Try to teach by example and aim to reduce collateral damage above everything else. The worst aspect of ---snip---, ---edit--- and just removing derailing posts is that I, as a poster, often don't get a single hint this has happened, unless I'm an OCD weirdo who regularly copies down all his posts and compare them, letter by letter, on a regular basis.
Which, again, means that I get absolutely no hints as to what I might be doing wrong, if anything, which means that I'll probably keep posting the way I do until it potentially escalates all the way to forum bans, with nary a clue as to why it got there in the first place. |
Mme Pinkerton
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 11:17:00 -
[145] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:The worst aspect of ---snip---, ---edit--- and just removing derailing posts is that I, as a poster, often don't get a single hint this has happened, unless I'm an OCD weirdo who regularly copies down all his posts and compare them, letter by letter, on a regular basis.
Which, again, means that I get absolutely no hints as to what I might be doing wrong, if anything, which means that I'll probably keep posting the way I do until it potentially escalates all the way to forum bans, with nary a clue as to why it got there in the first place. I agree.
Maybe the existing notification system could be expanded to include moderator actions on your posts. An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1287
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 11:51:00 -
[146] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Rer Eirikr wrote:Okay, I'm going to ask before I say anything else, because I really don't wanna say something I'm not allowed to say.* Can I discuss "that one website that starts with a K" and its forum moderation? If I can, and I will do so with the utmost care, I'd like to compare and contrast the moderation, the allowance of insults/etc., and the discussions that form as a result.
*No pun or rib intended here, I'm honestly just going slow on this one. No, not really. I fail to see what another forum does has any relation to this forum. For example, if you were banned on Failheap should I extend that ban here so that we are in harmony? Would you find something of this nature to be fair? I would certainly not. The rules of other forums, what they allow or do not allow is completely up to those communities and their administrators. These other forums matter because they are the signs of your failures. 3rd party sites don't become successful "by accident" - they have to overcome several significant disadvantages to become successful (far fewer readers/posters than eve-o initially, no institutional checks & balances on forum mods, no chance of dev/GM replies to any posts, ...) and can only achieve success through eve-o failing to deliver whatever they have to offer. Sometimes the shortcomings that 3rd party sites try to fix are a a lack of features - e.g. we probably wouldn't have eveger.de if eve-o hadn't taken 9 years to open a German forum section. But more often than not the issue that drives people away from eve-o seems to be forum moderation: Aries Acheron wrote:Forum Wars: Scrapheap Challenge Is it better than the Eve Forums?
In a word, yes. The Scrapheap Challenge forums are every damn thing that the Eve Online forums should be. Thanks to actually having rules against bullshit like alt posting, unrestricted political smacktalk and downright lying, the SHC forums are a bastion of light compared to the blistering cesspool of internet spaceship dung that are the Eve Online Forums.
[...]
Largely, it just seems that SHC is the best parts of E-O with only a small amount of the bad. Because of itGÇÖs more exclusive membership, active modding and intelligent, generally laid back posters, itGÇÖs just a downright better place. Sign up now, but donGÇÖt be a moron and ruin it for the rest of us, mmmkay? Quote:This is the first & only uncensored EVE Online Forum... This is the premier site for airing EVE Online's dirty laundry. Kugutsumen was started by the disenfranchised AnthonyZ, who was permanently banned from EVE Online following his much-publicized revelation of a CCP developer cheating on behalf of his alliance. Quote:What is [email protected]?Backstage is a place for EVE players to discuss aspects of EVE-Online, particularly as they pertain to role-playing, in an open and mature environment. Old and new, pirate and bear - all are welcome! Our intention is to offer a culture that encourages discussion over argument and mutual respect over enmity through the use of clear posting guidelines along with explanations of what is considered acceptable and unacceptable; meaningful discussion is to be valued above theatrics and hyperbolic argument in pursuit of 'winning' threads.. The main idea here is that while IC people might be enemies, the forum is OOC and as such people should act like adults discussing their mutual hobby. I didn't dig deep enough to find the rationale for the existence of chatsubo - but at least their (ultimately unsuccessful) attempt at creating an IC forum was also due to gripes with moderation on the eve-o IGS (e.g. linkage). Bad forum moderation is what drives people to 3rd party sites and by doing so threatens to fracture the eve community. I think the most impressive negative example of such developments are the Blizzard' battle.net forums. If I am interested in SC2 I go to teamliquid.net. If I am generally interested in WoW I go to mmo-champion.com. If I am interested in WoW PvE & theorycrafting I go elitistjerks.com. If I am interested in WoW PvP I go to arenajunkies.com. If I want to recruit for my WoW guild I go to tankspot.com, elitistjerks.com and mmo-champion.com. If I am interested in Diablo 3 I go to mmo-champion.com or diablofans.com. Left on the battle.net forums are only the newbies who don't know any better and a couple of MVPs who desperately try to keep the forums alive. (Also notice how one company [Curse] operates three of the sites I just mentioned - they recognized the business opportunity provided by Blizzard's near complete failure in community management.) Now, luckily EVE is not in that state just yet - a lot of the relevant eve-related discussion still happens on eve-o itself. I attribute this (partial) success mostly to the flexibility with which the forum moderators have handled the enforcement of forum rules in the different subforums in the past, accomodating the individual "style" of each one. Sadly the new ISD moderators seem to lack this crucial sensitivity.Always enforcing the forum rules down to a t may work fine for the Market Discussions forum (well, unless you start treating IPO/Loan threads as "selling services" or "begging") but you could (for example) never hope to keep the C&P community on eve-o if you would decide to go down that road. And, as the German/Russian language communities show, once you lost one s...
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1287
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 11:54:00 -
[147] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Snippets from the last couple of days I loved. ISD Athechu wrote:1) Petitions cannot be discussed on the forums per CCP Forum Rules (Rule 9)...
Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL... (whatever that means) Graic Gabtar wrote:Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank. ISD Athechu wrote:To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception. CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. No Nav, don't worry. My perception is now very clear when it comes to the ISD.
Hello Graic.
I totally get it. You do not like ISD and there is not much I can do to change your perception.
My role is to ensure that ISD work for the vast majority of the EVE Online players. The concept of pleasing everyone is an impossibility so i am well aware that not everyone will be happy.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1287
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 11:55:00 -
[148] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:In my opinion the biggest simple improvements to forum moderation would be:
* rephrase any offending statements in an acceptable manner; the recent use of ----snip---- and ----edit---- often leaves posts incomprehensible.
* don't lock derailed threads, remove the derailing posts instead.
* make sure you understand the thread/post before taking any moderation action. It's extremely frustrating to see a reasonable discussion get locked because the moderator did obviously only skim the "offending" posts, failed to understand sarcasm or context, ...
In short, moderators, please, don't let your actions be determined by laziness or hurry. Try to teach by example and aim to reduce collateral damage above everything else. The worst aspect of ---snip---, ---edit--- and just removing derailing posts is that I, as a poster, often don't get a single hint this has happened, unless I'm an OCD weirdo who regularly copies down all his posts and compare them, letter by letter, on a regular basis. Which, again, means that I get absolutely no hints as to what I might be doing wrong, if anything, which means that I'll probably keep posting the way I do until it potentially escalates all the way to forum bans, with nary a clue as to why it got there in the first place.
You make a good point and perhaps this is something we can code into the software so that you can see your original and compare it to the edit.
Truth of the matter is that they are not deleting good content from your posts and leaving bad stuff there.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Lord Zim
956
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:12:00 -
[149] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Lord Zim wrote:The worst aspect of ---snip---, ---edit--- and just removing derailing posts is that I, as a poster, often don't get a single hint this has happened, unless I'm an OCD weirdo who regularly copies down all his posts and compare them, letter by letter, on a regular basis.
Which, again, means that I get absolutely no hints as to what I might be doing wrong, if anything, which means that I'll probably keep posting the way I do until it potentially escalates all the way to forum bans, with nary a clue as to why it got there in the first place. You make a good point and perhaps this is something we can code into the software so that you can see your original and compare it to the edit. This won't really help me in any way, shape or form unless I also have an easy way to see that it has been done without having to read through literally every post I've ever made.
CCP Navigator wrote:Truth of the matter is that they are not deleting good content from your posts and leaving bad stuff there. That is debatable, I've seen posts which have been literally butchered to death, and what was removed was in my mind not even remotely close to "bad stuff", and the "good stuff" which was left there made absolutely no sense because it was either a preface of, or it depended on, what was removed. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2546
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:13:00 -
[150] - Quote
Nastrado wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: I know nobody in Eve has roleplayed a "spacehooker" and you continuing to peddle a clumsy lie just seems like desperate attempted bluster every time you end up losing a debate or argument on these forums.
That's right not a space hooker just the madame of a space brothel with your the alts all being "receptionists" at said brothel http://web.archive.org/web/20040724180503/http://www.mordante.demon.co.uk/Maison.htm
Also lies - also told by Goonswarm and also repeated on your wiki. As I said earlier. This behaviour on the part of your alliance is a direct example of the problem with these forums and the way lax moderation has allowed you to stalk and bully people out of the game by spreading rumours and making personal attack posts. You've linked a website that was hosted by goons alongside a letter sent to my employers in 2008 that coupled with a nasty little set of allegations was intended to embarrass me in the RL workplace as part of an election smear campaign.
This becomes an issue for everyone really this kind of Goonswarm fabrication sweeps beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers. Your alliance mates made up the nonsense you are happily posting. As far as I know nobody in Eve has roleplayed a "spacehooker" a "cyber-brothel madame" and certainly not I or my "alts" (lol tbh when you look at those names) and you continuing to peddle a clumsy lie that just seems like desperate attempted bluster every time you end up losing a debate or argument on these forums.
Sometimes you just need to stop and think about what you are posting rather than blindly echoing the things posted on your alliance wiki. Posting RL pictues of eve players there and accusing them of child abuse and pedophilia might well be an accepted practise on Something Awful forums but continually attempting to smear the RL reputations of eve players is not something these forums should be a party to.
At this point you are the problem. And you are exactly the sort of person whose behaviour needs moderating on Eve online forums if the environment is to be improved for everyone.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
|
Kristan Konraden
The Hatchery Team Liquid
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:18:00 -
[151] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: Other thrid party sites do not have a legal obligation to keep their forums teen rated and suitable for 13 year olds. We do. This means that wht other forums can allow we are not able to permit.
Is there a way to get around this obligation? Like making parts of the forum non-public with age verification? The average Eve player could be the daddy of your 13 year old kid.... |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2546
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:19:00 -
[152] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker. Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers. Let me be totally blunt to you Mara Tessidar. Your alliance mates made up the nonsense you are happily posting. As far as I know nobody in Eve has roleplayed a "spacehooker" and you continuing to peddle a clumsy lie just seems like desperate attempted bluster every time you end up losing a debate or argument on these forums. Sometimes you just need to stop and think about what you are posting rather than blindly echoing the things posted on your alliance wiki. Posting RL pictues of eve players there and accusing them of child abuse and pedophilia might well be an accepted practise on Something Awful forums but continually attempting to smear the RL reputations of eve players is not something these forums should be a party to. At this point you are the problem Mara Tessidar. And you are exactly the sort of person whose behaviour needs moderating on Eve online forums if the environment is to be improved for everyone. You have committed--would have committed, even if you had never set pen to paper, or finger to key--the essential crime that contains all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, we call it. Thoughtcrime is not a thing that can be concealed forever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later we are bound to get you.
And you have committed repeat attempts to smear the RL reputation of a fellow Eve player over political differences in an online game. Lets sit back and think about that for a moment. Because of internet spaceships you are hosting a RL picture of an "enemy eve player" alongside the allegation they molest children. Thats pretty much "out-there" and shows you people are taking an online game to a ridiculous degree.
Goonswarm "Propaganda"
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:21:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.
GÇ£Many peopleGÇ¥? Really? Is there any evidence for this? To me it seems that it is actually just a couple of rather vocal people who keep bringing this up. Could we get a poll or something on this? |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1290
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:23:00 -
[154] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.
GÇ£Many peopleGÇ¥? Really? Is there any evidence for this? To me it seems that it is actually just a couple of rather vocal people who keep bringing this up. Could we get a poll or something on this?
No. CCP do not tolerate religious, racial or sexist messaging which is used to cause discomfort to other players.
That will not change, ever.
CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1290
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:24:00 -
[155] - Quote
I have deleted posts which are off topic for this discussion. Jade and Goons, cut it out on this thread.
Thank you. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
315
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:29:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Hello Graic.
I totally get it. You do not like ISD and there is not much I can do to change your perception.
My role is to ensure that ISD work for the vast majority of the EVE Online players. The concept of pleasing everyone is an impossibility so i am well aware that not everyone will be happy.
Hello Navigator,
I would not call it a dislike of the ISD as such - conceptually the idea should be fine.
The implementation is the problem. It has been poor, and honestly I think this is a knock on effect of how these forums are moderated overall.
No, you will not please everyone all of the time. However, the neatly crafted rules that simply provide a layer of obfuscation to people discussing what concerns them fails because the petition system is effectively broken for forum issues. Going forward i predict there will be a lot of displeased people in that "everyone".
So respectfully if you think having the ISD simply locking threads, or making annoying edits will work for the vast majority of players, then more power to you.
Unhappy with an ISD action? Do what you need to do forum wise - up to you. However, your alternative avenues to complain are: [email protected] | [email protected]-á| [email protected] It might seem pointless at the time but CCP need to at least take the time to read it - and time is money. |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:34:00 -
[157] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:No. CCP do not tolerate religious, racial or sexist messaging which is used to cause discomfort to other players.
That will not change, ever. But isnGÇÖt this the crux of the whole debate? A few people claim that they are offended by the use of these words even though they are not the ones addressed. If two people talk to each other and one of them says, for instance, that he himself is GÇ£jewingGÇ¥ or something of that sort (I have never seen it being used myself) then you simply cannot claim that the intent of this phrase is GÇ£to cause discomfort to other playersGÇ¥. Especially if neither of the two interlocutors take offense to it. Why should a third party that is listening in on this conversation have a say in what words these two people may or may not use? Where will this end? Mandatory trigger warnings so that victims of **** who might be playing EVE are not discomforted when they stumble upon someone mentioning GÇ£abuseGÇ¥ in Local?
People have the right to be offended but they do not have the right to censor everyone elseGÇÖs speech because of that. Just my two cents. |
Lord Zim
957
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:38:00 -
[158] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:I have deleted posts which are off topic for this discussion. Jade and Goons, cut it out on this thread. Have any of my posts been deleted, since I'm mentioned by association? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
361
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:39:00 -
[159] - Quote
Removed by user Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:42:00 -
[160] - Quote
Yes but is it really our duty not to offend other people? After all, we are not talking about a majority here but an apparently tiny group of people. ShouldnGÇÖt it be up to them to avoid what offends them or otherwise deal with it? I donGÇÖt see why our freedom should be curtailed so that a few people have their way. Since the mere mentioning of the word GÇ£jewGÇ¥ and the like seems to be an affront for them, what would stop others from asking them same for their nationality,, ethnicity and what not? |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2547
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:42:00 -
[161] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote: As I've told you before Jade, you're in no position to be throwing stones on this issue since the same happened to CCP Sreegs in his former job after he clashed with you on these very forums and the CSM. You're trying to have your cake and eat it: Somebody goes to your employer and tells them embarrassing stories about what you supposedly do on the internet, you yell from every rooftop that its a Goonswarm conspiracy and we as an alliance are collectively to blame. Somebody does the same to Sreegs and you throw your hands up and say 'nothing to do with me or my alliance, could have been anyone, its a big internet out there'.
Of course what actually happened is that I condemed both incidents without reservation and I recently said as much in the assembly hall topic on subject. "
Proposal] CSM Member Real Life Names https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=89537&p=7
I condemn without reservation attacks on a persons real life identity. In this case I'm pretty much on the money to blame Goonswarm for this action seeing as how the same posters are making the same allegations, linking the same links and hosting the same vile allegations of child abuse on the goon wiki!
Here's the text from my support of Liang Nuren's proposal.
"As a player who has suffered my fair share of real life harrassment from Goonswarm (and friends) ever since my real name was provided to the community as part of my successful CSM 1 run, I could certainly see the argument for going back in time and reversing this policy.
In retrospect sure, the fact my real name was provided to enemies in Eve allowed some people to search for my online CV, take my pictures, find my employers past and current and begin an organized campaign of harrassment against my real identity. Sites were created specifically to portray me in the worst possible light and links were provided to my place of work along with letters perporting to be from "concerned parents" that a person like me should be playing an online game.
Even today real life photograph is hosted on the goonwiki alongside the accusation I'm putting GHB into children's drinks.
So yes, real life harrassment does certainly arise from the fact that CSM candidates are required to give their real names because some subscribers to this game are completely incapable of keeping their animosity to in-game only behaviour.
At this point I will support your topic to remove people's real life names from the process on the provisio it goes further and makes any unauthorized link to somebody's personal detals, photographs a eula breaching offence punishable by a signifcant ban.
Out of game harrassment/bullying must be completely outlawed in Eve online if this game is to repair its toxic reputation in the wider gaming community
And incidently I would like to call upon the administrators of the goonwiki to remove all reference to my rl photograph and allegations of criminal activity otherwise I will again petition the GM's at CCP to take action in this case. "
If this current topic is a sign that CCP is finally going to take action to outlaw this kind of behaviour from the main Eve Online forums then thats a very good development.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2547
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:44:00 -
[162] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:I have deleted posts which are off topic for this discussion. Jade and Goons, cut it out on this thread. Thank you.
Navigator, I'm sorry that this argument keeps coming back. But is it really off topic for a friend about the future of community moderation to talk about a recurring form of bullying and smearing that has been going on since 2008?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
361
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:53:00 -
[163] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:I have deleted posts which are off topic for this discussion. Jade and Goons, cut it out on this thread. Thank you. Navigator, I'm sorry that this argument keeps coming back. But is it really off topic for a thread about the future of community moderation to talk about a recurring form of bullying and smearing that has been going on since 2008? Jade if it concerns you that much and as I noted he had a picture of someone(Supposedly you) on it just contact the Host and have them kill the site. It isn't hosted in a country immune to laws. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3751
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:56:00 -
[164] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: You make a good point and perhaps this is something we can code into the software so that you can see your original and compare it to the edit.
Truth of the matter is that they are not deleting good content from your posts and leaving bad stuff there.
perhaps this would be a good time to discuss reversing the "no pointing out that a csm candidate has posted unironically neo-**** posts on the eve-o forums" policy! |
Elijah Craig
Trask Industries Li3 Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:59:00 -
[165] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:I have deleted posts which are off topic for this discussion. Jade and Goons, cut it out on this thread.
Thank you. Thanks. About two weeks too late (many recent threads around this forum have been selfishly ruined by childish and inane one-upmanship between these two sides), but welcome here nevertheless.
I, for one, welcome our new firm moderation overlords. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2547
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:00:00 -
[166] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Jade if it concerns you that much and as I noted he had a picture of someone(Supposedly you) on it just contact the Host and have them kill the site. It isn't hosted in a country immune to laws.
I have written 3 different letters to the host. All have been ignored. I have reported the site to my local authorities and unfortunately there is literally nothing they can do. I have also had lengthy discussions with eve GM's through the petition system that have not even been able to block links from this site.
Frankly - short of well ... talking about this. I'm not sure what else can be done?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:04:00 -
[167] - Quote
Kristan Konraden wrote:CCP Navigator wrote: Other thrid party sites do not have a legal obligation to keep their forums teen rated and suitable for 13 year olds. We do. This means that wht other forums can allow we are not able to permit.
Is there a way to get around this obligation? Like making parts of the forum non-public with age verification? The average Eve player could be the daddy of your 13 year old kid....
What he said is that things are going sony...ahem south I meant PG 13 is the magic number not 42.
Fare Well Eve |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
361
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:10:00 -
[168] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Jade if it concerns you that much and as I noted he had a picture of someone(Supposedly you) on it just contact the Host and have them kill the site. It isn't hosted in a country immune to laws. I have written 3 different letters to the host. All have been ignored. I have reported the site to my local authorities and unfortunately there is literally nothing they can do. I have also had lengthy discussions with eve GM's through the petition system that have not even been able to block links from this site. Frankly - short of well ... talking about this. I'm not sure what else can be done? Just send the Host a demand to close the site within 24 hours and demand payment for the publishing of a picture without license to do so. Then just ask for a mere 5 cents per raw visitor to the site from the host. Failing that contact a lawyer as you have a case on royalties alone for the picture, it also falls under copyright infringement. That's just ignoring the other stuff of course. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2547
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:21:00 -
[169] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Jade if it concerns you that much and as I noted he had a picture of someone(Supposedly you) on it just contact the Host and have them kill the site. It isn't hosted in a country immune to laws. I have written 3 different letters to the host. All have been ignored. I have reported the site to my local authorities and unfortunately there is literally nothing they can do. I have also had lengthy discussions with eve GM's through the petition system that have not even been able to block links from this site. Frankly - short of well ... talking about this. I'm not sure what else can be done? Just send the Host a demand to close the site within 24 hours and demand payment for the publishing of a picture without license to do so. Then just ask for a mere 5 cents per raw visitor to the site from the host for the entire time they have hosted it(the logs show exactly this). Failing that contact a lawyer as you have a case on royalties alone for the picture, it also falls under copyright infringement. That's just ignoring the other stuff of course.
Well thus far they haven't even responded to my mails, as far as I can tell the registrar for the domain is http://tucowsinc.com/contact/ but the admin email given for the host is some really dodgy looking email address with a telephone number (which doesn't pickup) in Canada.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness The Mockers AO
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:23:00 -
[170] - Quote
I understand the challenges this face, but let me say a few things quickly :
First and foremost the purpose of Moderation isn't to be fascist.
The purpose of moderation is to promote healthy discussion. But. Funny, the situation you have created has promoted an UNHEALTHY situation.
That's the irony.
I have seen a COMPLETE THREAD of creative writing get totally "CUT OUT" and replaced with an ISD comment which was TOTALLY UNNECESSARY because there was not a single thing that needed "censoring".
On top of it all, it seems that people are making decisions with no idea about who is doing what because our In Character thread was moved OUT from an In Character thread into a board that has our Official thread. Then. Because one moderator moved the thread, ANOTHER moderator came by and saw that there was a "duplicate" thread.
EXCEPT, the two threads were completely different purpose, from completely different perspective and posted in completely different places.
So now, YOU CREATED a problem which we explicitly tried to avoid.
AND WE are getting "punished" for it.
Yes, petitions are in, but nothing has been done in 2 days now.
On top of it all, I am now very suspicious about why we're having all these difficulties and wouldn't put it past the ISD team having personal interests in the moderation of our threads.
So, let's ask the BIG question.
If the purpose of this is to promote a healthy discussion, then why am I not getting that sensation? Because personally, what is happening is very simple. People want to have FREEDOM. Excessive "policing" is NEVER healthy for a social community. That is called FASCISM.
Let's take a moment and see what happens when excessive authority is given to a group of people without any balance and controls ::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
You may want a "PERFECT" EVE forum. But it is NOT happening. Period, the end. Sorry, this is reality. The best solution you have is to give people the liberty that they have earned and deserved. In over 7 years of operation you have not had any legal issues over your forum contents maintenance of PG13 despite understaffing, growing pains, community difficulties and so on.
The reality is simple. The purpose of moderation is to remind people you are there. Not to CONTROL THEM. Not to make them "perfect" citizens and make sure they "NEVER" break a law. Because, guess what? That ISN'T gonna happen. Police Officers KNOW people break the law all the time. Their purpose is to ensure that things don't get out of hand.
Now, I kindly request you review the petition I have in and UNDO the mess that your ISD team created so that I can have control over our thread back.
Thanks.
CEO-á Monocle Madness ~ Mega-Insane Lotteries for the Mentally Unstable http://www.monoclemadness.com |
|
Killer Gandry
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:23:00 -
[171] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:I wish there was an Ignore person on forums. And then if a person who is placed on ignore often enough become Auto ignore. If I loved reading these Auto ignore people, I could click the button, but that would be my choice.
.
And let me guess.
You don't see how large alliances can abuse this.
|
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:26:00 -
[172] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:No. CCP do not tolerate religious, racial or sexist messaging which is used to cause discomfort to other players.
That will not change, ever. But isnGÇÖt this the crux of the whole debate? A few people claim that they are offended by the use of these words even though they are not the ones addressed. If two people talk to each other and one of them says, for instance, that he himself is GÇ£jewingGÇ¥ or something of that sort (I have never seen it being used myself) then you simply cannot claim that the intent of this phrase is GÇ£to cause discomfort to other playersGÇ¥. Especially if neither of the two interlocutors take offense to it. Why should a third party that is listening in on this conversation have a say in what words these two people may or may not use? Where will this end? Mandatory trigger warnings so that victims of r ape who might be playing EVE are not discomforted when they stumble upon someone mentioning GÇ£abuseGÇ¥ in Local? People have the right to be offended but they do not have the right to censor everyone elseGÇÖs speech because of that. Just my two cents.
You are seriously going to attempt to justify Anti-Semitism?
If you want to talk like that, i hear some of the K K K have some forums. Pop over there. |
Lord Zim
957
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:31:00 -
[173] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:You are seriously going to attempt to justify Anti-Semitism? You can't have anti-semitism (or anti-anything) without hostile or negative intents. Just using a word doesn't automatically imply hostile or negative intent, you have to look at context, which is something overly PC people refuse to do. And this overreaction often creates more of a problem than looking at the intent behind the words being used, instead of just the words being used (or, as is often the case, a single word). |
Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness The Mockers AO
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:31:00 -
[174] - Quote
Fascism : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Quote:Fascism ( /-êf+ª-â+¬z+Öm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek elevation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.[3][4] Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture.[5]
Commitment to Organic National Community : The EVE Forums People United Together as One People : We are All EVE Players One people in National Identity/Suprapersonal connections : All EVE Players should treat each other nicely and fairly Totalitarian State : The EVE Forums are completely under the purview of CCP Mass mobilization of a Nation Through Discipline, etc : We will have the most awesome perfect "Nirvana" Forums ever by making sure everyone obeys are Forum Rules. Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences : The inability to have some control over how you present your material.
Quote:Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1]
Alright. If that doesn't make my point, I don't know how to get through to you.
You can not have all of that. It doesn't work. Choose your battles, win your fights. I know this is not your INTENTION. But it doesn't matter what your intention is, it's the results.
CEO-á Monocle Madness ~ Mega-Insane Lotteries for the Mentally Unstable http://www.monoclemadness.com |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
361
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:35:00 -
[175] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Well thus far they haven't even responded to my mails, as far as I can tell the registrar for the domain is http://tucowsinc.com/contact/ but the admin email given for the host is some really dodgy looking email address with a telephone number (which doesn't pickup) in Canada. Details for http://crackerjax.org sent via ingame mail as everyone doesn't need to know if you need more help feel free to send me an ingame mail. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:36:00 -
[176] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:You are seriously going to attempt to justify Anti-Semitism? You can't have anti-semitism (or anti-anything) without hostile or negative intents. Just using a word doesn't automatically imply hostile or negative intent, you have to look at context, which is something overly PC people refuse to do. And this overreaction often creates more of a problem than looking at the intent behind the words being used, instead of just the words being used (or, as is often the case, a single word).
And, when you see the word "Jew" being used here, do you feel the intent is to open a dialogue of the faith of Judaism, and the people who practice it?
Or do you think its being used to push predjudicial stereotypes?
This isn't an overreaction. Its people trying to justify why the inflammatory and horrific use of slurs is "okay, because i want it to be".
Grow up.
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2547
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:38:00 -
[177] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Well thus far they haven't even responded to my mails, as far as I can tell the registrar for the domain is http://tucowsinc.com/contact/ but the admin email given for the host is some really dodgy looking email address with a telephone number (which doesn't pickup) in Canada. Details for http://crackerjax.org sent via ingame mail as everyone doesn't need to know if you need more help feel free to send me an ingame mail.
Thank you, I'll get a letter in the post to those people today. Much appreciated.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:43:00 -
[178] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:You are seriously going to attempt to justify Anti-Semitism?
If you want to talk like that, i hear some of the K K K have some forums. Pop over there. Oh boy, here we go again with the anti-Semitism card. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
50
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:48:00 -
[179] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:
Hello Graic.
I totally get it. You do not like ISD and there is not much I can do to change your perception.
My role is to ensure that ISD work for the vast majority of the EVE Online players. The concept of pleasing everyone is an impossibility so i am well aware that not everyone will be happy.
I hope you are aware not all of us who disgruntled with the ISD actions in the last few days are opposed to the ISD moderation of forum in principle, right?
Because I do worry that an "us vs them" mentality develops, rather than a cooperative environment.
I am disgruntled only about the serious breaches of common sense and customer service principles of a particular ISD, and of how the entire ISD moderation was introduced by CCP - a "shoot firs, ask questions later" attitude. Not with the whole idea of moderation and of ISD moderation.
Those were not mistakes, in the sense a mistake is an error. It was simply punching it in and not thinking it through. I hope the take away is that while mistakes are inevitable, there are some that can be avoided or their impact mitigated by taking time to really think about things.
And of course, I hope to never again see that ISD. Change its name at the very least. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Lord Zim
957
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 13:48:00 -
[180] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:Or do you think its being used to push predjudicial stereotypes? You seem to be the one having prejudices and forcing them on me.
Vincent VanDamme wrote:This isn't an overreaction. Its people trying to justify why the inflammatory and horrific use of slurs is "okay, because i want it to be". Actually, yes, it is an overreaction. You see an inflammatory and horrific use of a slur, when there is no slur anywhere to be seen.
If I call a friend a nerd, that's not automatically a slur. If I punch someone in the face in class or on the street or at work and call them a nerd, it's most likely a slur. Context matters, and unless you learn to see context, you'll always overreact and call everything a slur, which is why we no longer have stewardesses, but "cabin personell", because some woman's group got offended about how the job title was offensive to women. Why? Because it was a woman-specific title. |
|
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
254
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:12:00 -
[181] - Quote
lol, there are a lot of people that need to spend more time blowing up ships in game then reading/posting on the forums On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Balak Ragnek
Black Thorne Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:21:00 -
[182] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:No. CCP do not tolerate religious, racial or sexist messaging which is used to cause discomfort to other players.
That will not change, ever. But isnGÇÖt this the crux of the whole debate? A few people claim that they are offended by the use of these words even though they are not the ones addressed. If two people talk to each other and one of them says, for instance, that he himself is GÇ£jewingGÇ¥ or something of that sort (I have never seen it being used myself) then you simply cannot claim that the intent of this phrase is GÇ£to cause discomfort to other playersGÇ¥. Especially if neither of the two interlocutors take offense to it. Why should a third party that is listening in on this conversation have a say in what words these two people may or may not use? Where will this end? Mandatory trigger warnings so that victims of r ape who might be playing EVE are not discomforted when they stumble upon someone mentioning GÇ£abuseGÇ¥ in Local? People have the right to be offended but they do not have the right to censor everyone elseGÇÖs speech because of that. Just my two cents.
Interestingly in UK law they absolutley have that right. People are quite able to claim racial discrimination in the work place purely from overhearing a conversation that was not meant for them which included language that was offensive to them. I've seen several instances where the "third parties" have been disciplined as a result and the business has had to pay compensation to the victim.
Its very important to realise that just becuase you don't think it should be an issue does not mean that is actually the case. |
Balak Ragnek
Black Thorne Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:32:00 -
[183] - Quote
I'm all for giving these forums a clean up and recognise that the cultural reset is going to take a little while so some suggestion on how this might be helped.
1) Next time people log onto the forums have the forum rules come up and require people to read and confirm they understand the rules before being allowed to post again. Backing this up I would suggest a refresh of the rules to ensure comments and clarifications being made here are included.
2) Notify people of when their posts have been cut or removed. I don't think this needs extra explanation by the ISD in the first instance
3) If people have a series of posts that need editing then require further posts to be seen and approved by a member of ISD. At this point the ISD member can explain reasons for further posts being changed.
|
Malcom Vincent
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:34:00 -
[184] - Quote
Someone asked previously in the thread about bans and warnings.
Having visited several forums, as a user and now having moderator rights (although I rarely use them, because I prefer banning people or deleting them from the database) I know that some forum software comes with a point system that will allow mods to keep track of your offenses (infractions) as a user, and some doesn't.
Despite popular belief though, its almost certain that all offenses are kept in a central location to monitor your forum abuse. You just can't see that forum.
Some point systems fade over time, allowing you to become involved members of the community and some are aware of these border values and has a tendency to abuse them, thus allowing them to remain in the community while being able to grossly overstep the boundries of the community on occasion, making a mockery of the system but more importantly, its users.
For those, there is an app that discourages forum use, making it a right pain to just navigate and post the forums as they will fail, load seemingly random pages, disconnect and more.
The best system use a mix of both, so the mods can forward only severe cases to community admins (in this case ISD can escalate to CCP community reps) in case of bans. That way, mods can spend time modding, and CCP reps can spend time on more important stuff, like working with fansites to get more interviews.
It would seem that some CCP devs do not have access to moderate the forums though, which propably benefits the users more than the developers
Personally, it pleases me that the ISD has been able to step in and help, as it allows us to get more content pushed out to the public through our fansite. EVE Stratics! Managing Editor Interviews, Guides, Reviews and more! |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
587
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:35:00 -
[185] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:lol, there are a lot of people that need to spend more time blowing up ships in game then reading/posting on the forums
This is literally how I deal with Jade Constantine and/or other people I disagree with on the forums. Perhaps the best method for dealing with anyone, really, is to kill them.
It certainly shows ~who's boss~
Whoops, I need to say something about the ISD.
Yeah, if two people or two groups are having a grudge fight on the forums, move it to CAOD instead of locking, removing, or otherwise censoring it. It's what CAOD is for. If one of the people is in an NPC corp, too bad--maybe they should either join a corp like they're supposed to or stop using an alt. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3208
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:38:00 -
[186] - Quote
To CCP, ISD and CCL,
While I don't know the actual specifics leading to the creation of this thread, I wholeheartedly commend, applaud and support you all 100% in what you're trying to achieve. It has been long overdue. You're doing a very tough job that is rarely ever given the proper appreciation that it deserves. Just remember that when gangrene infects a limb, you have to amputate it in order to save the body. Obviously it will be painful to the patient but it's still a necessary life saving action.
The gangrene I'm referring to is the offensive disrespectful anti social attitude that's been cultivated in these forums over the past few years. Sarcastic personal attacks being posted by individuals is all part of a meta-game event, enforced by gang-bang attacks with multiple alts designed to overwhelm and silence opposing viewpoints or to simply derive enjoyment by humiliating and insulting others. Clearly intended to disrupt and enrage others as evidenced by some of the posted replies in this very thread.
I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. This is your house and it's high time it was cleaned up. If I was just a little bit more cool-headed, I would have applied for CCL myself and named my character Davey Jones, probably because I'd be killing replies and sending threads to 'The Locker' while yelling 'Yarrr Matey'.
Those that say Eve is a harsh cruel game and the forums should reflect that are actually looking for an excuse to justify their own actions. These Forums used to be a helpful venue to share and gain information as well as converse with Dev's. Now it's just a place where people are constantly being attacked by rude, inconsiderate individuals hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, always looking to demean and berate others with sarcastic remarks.
So once again I say this to you, stay the course and do not be swayed by discontented opinions. The CCL has been doing an excellent job lately and they need to continue doing it.
DMC |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
910
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:53:00 -
[187] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:... I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ... ... DMC You clearly haven't a clue what happened.
Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered.
And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there.
And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen. And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP.
So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
52
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:53:00 -
[188] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation.
Except, you know, that is not the case.
For someone claiming, implicitly, to have a high horse, you are actually taking this opportunity to engage in the same behavior.
If you would have been active in the last few days, you would have seen what we are talking about. The issue was not that there were rule violations. The issue was that rules were being interpreted and enforced in manners that rather than promote better flow in the forums, they made matters worse.
Quite frankly, your post is also has an "offensive disrespectful anti social attitude" in so far as is lumps together those with legitimate concerns with the few bad apples and confuses the legitimate issues of moderation being needed and the ISD being a good way to do that, with the issue of ISD incompetence and lack of planning on the part of CCP.
And furthermore, it uses tones that are not far from what you denounce.
Bottom line: you are not practicing what you preach and your post is not helpful and is in fact ignorant of the facts at hand. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
52
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 14:55:00 -
[189] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:... I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ... ... DMC You clearly haven't a clue what happened. Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered. And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there. And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen. And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP. So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself.
We posted almost at the same time but yours came on top, but I gotta say +1. Obviously DMC doesn't have the slightest clue of what happened and what is being talked about both in the forums and in the petitions. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1295
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:00:00 -
[190] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:... I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ... ... DMC You clearly haven't a clue what happened. Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered. And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there. And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen. And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP. So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself. We posted almost at the same time but yours came on top, but I gotta say +1. Obviously DMC doesn't have the slightest clue of what happened and what is being talked about both in the forums and in the petitions.
This does not in any way detract from his overall message which I thought was well written, on topic and I find it pretty difficult to disagree with any of it.
Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.
Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
|
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
208
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:02:00 -
[191] - Quote
apologies for stating the obvious but a lot of the recent troubles seem to come down to one very simple issue:
Q: Who has the strongest motivation to volunteer for the CCL? A: Someone who was not happy with the way forum rules were enforced pre-CCL.
People who were basically happy with the way forum rules were enforced by CCP moderators (i.e. extremely sporadically & inconsistently) had little reason to act and those who would want forum rules to be relaxed knew they would not be able to change anything by joining CCL. However, CCL gave those who were fed up about CCP tolerating constant violations of the forum rules an outlet for action (and there isn't much CCP can do about them - after all they only enforce the rules that were created by CCP).
A second point I'd like to bring up is that I don't think having "anonymous" moderators was a good idea. These ISD characters don't have any reputation to gain or to lose through their actions, they don't command any respect and they deemphasize the "the people moderating the community have been chosen from the community itself" aspect. It also invites speculations about hidden bias on part of the ISD moderators. I don't like to have some random no-name lock threads in a forum that - for all I know - he never read before signing up for ISD duty. In my opinion CCP would have done good to get respected community figures on board for the CCL and should leveraged that respect to enforce forum rules. When "ISD Lady Spank" locks my C&P thread for trolling I have little choice but to shut up, look into the mirror and ask myself if I have become a badposter. When "ISD Whatsyourname" does the same my initial reaction is that he probably doesn't "get" C&P anyways. |
TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance
135
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:04:00 -
[192] - Quote
Give us another way to contact ISDs other than the snailmail petitions that nobody wants to use due to the frankly crap response time. Lack of communication = lack of understanding = lack of empathy. "We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:08:00 -
[193] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:
This does not in any way detract from his overall message which I thought was well written, on topic and I find it pretty difficult to disagree with any of it.
Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.
Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.
With all due respect, if you found it well written and found agreement with. DMC essentially insulted a whole range of participants in these forums and indeed spoke off topic. That you find his response on topic means you either failed to read what we have written, or want to control the message so bad that you willfully ignore it.
I have not berated anyone - I have expressed discontent with actual, specific, behaviors. I do, however, are deeply disappointed at you, as an employee of CCP, have clearly seen it fit to insult and berate me, your customer, based upon your personal affinities with another customer.
That would never happen in a professional situation.
And that is a problem. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1295
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:17:00 -
[194] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:
This does not in any way detract from his overall message which I thought was well written, on topic and I find it pretty difficult to disagree with any of it.
Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.
Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.
With all due respect, if you found it well written and found agreement with. DMC essentially insulted a whole range of participants in these forums and indeed spoke off topic. That you find his response on topic means you either failed to read what we have written, or want to control the message so bad that you willfully ignore it. I have not berated anyone - I have expressed discontent with actual, specific, behaviors. I do, however, are deeply disappointed at you, as an employee of CCP, have clearly seen it fit to insult and berate me, your customer, based upon your personal affinities with another customer. That would never happen in a professional situation. And that is a problem.
The entire purpose of the thread is to discuss the future of the Community team and ISD on the forums and, as a result, his post is entirely on topic.
I have no 'personal affinity' with him or any other poster. My role needs to be one of objectivity, however, the fact that I will agree with someones point of view means this reflects our own vision for the future of the forums.
if the choice of the word 'berate' offends you then i am truly sorry. What I have been witnessing is a section of our playerbase who would much rather see the ISD fail, get thrown out rather than seeing if there is a way they could assist them.
My bad. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:31:00 -
[195] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: if the choice of the word 'berate' offends you then i am truly sorry. What I have been witnessing is a section of our playerbase who would much rather see the ISD fail, get thrown out rather than seeing if there is a way they could assist them.
My bad.
Apology accepted.
But if you would have read what I have written in this thread and elsewhere and in petitions, you would see I am not part of that section.
However, DMC argued in black and white terms (what before I called "us vs them" terms) and you echoed him - and that is insulting, because it means all that me and those that agree with me have written has fallen in deaf ears.
I hope you can finally understand that there are those, like myself, that do not want ISD to fail, but are seriously concerned that it could have unintended consequences both for the game and for the forums themselves, if not handled correctly.
And that we concerned because as customers, we do not want to see our investment on time and money lost.
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2555
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:32:00 -
[196] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:apologies for stating the obvious but a lot of the recent troubles seem to come down to one very simple issue:
Q: Who has the strongest motivation to volunteer for the CCL? A: Someone who was not happy with the way forum rules were enforced pre-CCL.
People who were basically happy with the way forum rules were enforced by CCP moderators (i.e. extremely sporadically & inconsistently) had little reason to act and those who would want forum rules to be relaxed knew they would not be able to change anything by joining CCL. However, CCL gave those who were fed up about CCP tolerating constant violations of the forum rules an outlet for action (and there isn't much CCP can do about them - after all they only enforce the rules that were created by CCP).
A second point I'd like to bring up is that I don't think having "anonymous" moderators was a good idea. These ISD characters don't have any reputation to gain or to lose through their actions, they don't command any respect and they deemphasize the "those people moderating the community have been chosen from the community itself" aspect which is crucial for the success of this experiment. It also invites speculations about hidden bias on part of the ISD moderators as their true identity is not known. In my opinion CCP would have done good to get respected community figures on board for the CCL and should have leveraged that respect to enforce forum rules. If "ISD Lady Spank" locks my C&P thread for trolling I have little choice but to shut up, look into the mirror and ask myself if I have become a badposter. When "ISD Whatsyourname" does the same my initial reaction is that he probably doesn't "get" C&P anyways.
I agree with your assessment that people who think forum moderation can be improved are likely to be the ones that apply but then I don't think that's a band thing since we sort of agree, and that being one of the reasons for starting the CCL...other major reasons being more boots on the ground to gather good feedback, and to interact in a pro-active manner etc.
However, I disagree with the argument that we would all be better off if they moderated under their in-game names. While that can work very well in a community that's purely based around a forum and all social repercussions are contained on that forum, it wouldn't work the same in a community where the forum is just a part of a persistent galaxy where their corporations, assets, relationships and livelihood can be severely affected by who's toes they step on during their daily duties.
Would they constantly have to worry about things like whether or not to lock someone's thread because he might toss them out of an alliance if they did? Or about editing this guy's thread because he runs the meanest infiltration group known to man and would probably be feasting on their corpses in a few months time if he knew their in-game identities? :)
Don't get me wrong, it would have its benefits, but more downsides in my opinion. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
|
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
209
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:41:00 -
[197] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: Other thrid party sites do not have a legal obligation to keep their forums teen rated and suitable for 13 year olds. We do. This means that wht other forums can allow we are not able to permit.
I appreciate your response but you would have made me even more happy if it showed any signs of you actually having read my post.
Tow of my three examples mention stricter moderation as one of the advantages the respective 3rd party forums have over eve-o.
How you look at a statement like "Thanks to actually having rules against bullshit like alt posting, unrestricted political smacktalk and downright lying, the SHC forums are a bastion of light compared to the blistering cesspool of internet spaceship dung that are the Eve Online Forums" and come to the (paraphrased) conclusion that "our responsibility to maintain a teen rating is the only reason why people could feel the need to migrate to other forums" is mysterious to me.
|
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1591
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:47:00 -
[198] - Quote
Remember to have your ISD spayed or neutered |
Killer Gandry
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:49:00 -
[199] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Once again, we want you all to be vocal. We want you discussing EVE, why you love it, why you hate it, what you would like to see in the future and more. Our only request from you is that you do it in a way that makes your fellow players and our Developers comfortable in having that discussion with you. I do not feel that this is an unreasonable request
Just too bad this seems to be a one way street. Just looking at several Devs behaviour towards certain players and playergroups, I personally, get more and more the feeling the same rules get applied differently in simular cases.
You forget one large part in your whole setup.
A large group can make life for someone on the forums a lot harder than a small group or solo player.
If being comfortable having a discussion would have been the goal then you shouldn't have slopped it all up in the first place. Now by having a runt of wannabe's run around, eager to please their new master in finding anything even remotely hurtfull or hatefull you set the whole "feeling comfortable in having that discussion" situation even on a far higher platform than most people are willing to reach for.
|
Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness The Mockers AO
81
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:52:00 -
[200] - Quote
Your first objective is to identify that all people are different in this forum.
Yes, we all play EVE and are EVE players but we're all very different, and being a subscriber does not set us to the same cultural standards.
That doesn't excuse inappropriate behavior, but a "ONE RULE TO BIND THEM ALL" is NOT going to work. CEO-á Monocle Madness ~ Mega-Insane Lotteries for the Mentally Unstable http://www.monoclemadness.com |
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:03:00 -
[201] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:To CCP, ISD and CCL,
While I don't know the actual specifics leading to the creation of this thread, I wholeheartedly commend, applaud and support you all 100% in what you're trying to achieve. It has been long overdue. You're doing a very tough job that is rarely ever given the proper appreciation that it deserves. Just remember that when gangrene infects a limb, you have to amputate it in order to save the body. Obviously it will be painful to the patient but it's still a necessary life saving action.
The gangrene I'm referring to is the offensive disrespectful anti social attitude that's been cultivated in these forums over the past few years. Sarcastic personal attacks being posted by individuals is all part of a meta-game event, enforced by gang-bang attacks with multiple alts designed to overwhelm and silence opposing viewpoints or to simply derive enjoyment by humiliating and insulting others. Clearly intended to disrupt and enrage others as evidenced by some of the posted replies in this very thread.
I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. This is your house and it's high time it was cleaned up. If I was just a little bit more cool-headed, I would have applied for CCL myself and named my character Davey Jones, probably because I'd be killing replies and sending threads to 'The Locker' while yelling 'Yarrr Matey'.
Those that say Eve is a harsh cruel game and the forums should reflect that are actually looking for an excuse to justify their own actions. These Forums used to be a helpful venue to share and gain information as well as converse with Dev's. Now it's just a place where people are constantly being attacked by rude, inconsiderate individuals hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, always looking to demean and berate others with sarcastic remarks.
So once again I say this to you, stay the course and do not be swayed by discontented opinions. The CCL has been doing an excellent job lately and they need to continue doing it.
DMC
What an excellent idea, lets force your Morality on everyone else. That will show them! If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3211
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:05:00 -
[202] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:... I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ... ... DMC You clearly haven't a clue what happened. Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered. And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there. And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen. And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP. So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself. Heh, I have every right to post my opinion and even without knowing the actual specifics, I still stand by my original reply which, by the way, was addressed to CCP, ISD and CCL. Definitely not to you or your alt.
I've been an active member of this community for 4 years and have watched these forums degenerate into the mosh-pit they currently are so don't try to talk down to me acting like you've been grievously wronged..
I know just exactly how quickly these forums can get out of hand and in those situations it needs to be nipped in the bud. Regardless of the small mistake made by linking to a locked thread, the intention is still forthright and just, despite what you or any other dissenting person has to say.
Trolling, regardless if it's mild or not, is not allowed as per forum rules. Same with duplicate topic posting. I can understand a situation of being overwhelmed by a flood of duplicate threads and quite frankly, I would have sent them all to 'The Locker' as well. I also would have reported various characters who insist on escalating the issue, much like you and your fellow cohorts are doing now.
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. Except, you know, that is not the case. For someone claiming, implicitly, to have a high horse, you are actually taking this opportunity to engage in the same behavior. If you would have been active in the last few days, you would have seen what we are talking about. The issue was not that there were rule violations. The issue was that rules were being interpreted and enforced in manners that rather than promote better flow in the forums, they made matters worse. Quite frankly, your post is also has an "offensive disrespectful anti social attitude" in so far as is lumps together those with legitimate concerns with the few bad apples and confuses the legitimate issues of moderation being needed and the ISD being a good way to do that, with the issue of ISD incompetence and lack of planning on the part of CCP. And furthermore, it uses tones that are not far from what you denounce. Bottom line: you are not practicing what you preach and your post is not helpful and is in fact ignorant of the facts at hand.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. My reply was a generalization addressed to CCP, ISD and CCL. The problem here is people like you who keep ranting and raving, definitely blowing things out of proportion and basically instigating a flame war. You not only sow the seeds of discontent, you make personal attacks against CCP, ISD, CCL and me.
Please read my reply to Corina Jarr since it also applies to you as well.
|
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:14:00 -
[203] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.
Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen. Serious question: have the "couple of green recruits" apologized and asked for forgiveness? If not, it's rather presumptuous to assume that forgiveness will be provided where none is sought.
MDD
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:15:00 -
[204] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:
Don't get me wrong, it would have its benefits, but more downsides in my opinion.
One word: metagame.
If ISDs used their in-game names, it would mean their actions would be judged by the rules of the game, not the forums. It creates an untenable friction.
That is different from the CSM, which indeed must be directly accountable.
However, there has to be a way to make them community accountable. Perhaps a quality survey like that used in petitions. That way CCP can have data beyond the (potentially) self-serving subjective assessment of the ISD.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" is a real problem.
We can both accept the need for policing, and be skeptical of the good intentions of the police, and in particular, certain police officers. While in real life this is a hard question, it shouldn't be for CCP, who are a software company that can play god. I pay CCP good money so they can do what I wish I could do, why waste it! :)
For example, CCP could compare the number of actions performed with the feedback received on those actions, and monitor it, with monthly reporting - much like the anti-bot /rmt efforts we all like and support but with more data. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:17:00 -
[205] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.
Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen. Serious question: have the "couple of green recruits" apologized and asked for forgiveness? If not, it's rather presumptuous to assume that forgiveness will be provided where none is sought. MDD
To be fair, while I agree, CCP Guard and CCP Phantom both provided apologies. And the ISD Admiral (Forget his name) also apologized. But it is true, the ISDs in question should ask for apologies if they want the community to forgive them. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:23:00 -
[206] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.
Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.
MailDeadDrop wrote:Serious question: have the "couple of green recruits" apologized and asked for forgiveness? If not, it's rather presumptuous to assume that forgiveness will be provided where none is sought.
MDD
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:To be fair, while I agree, CCP Guard and CCP Phantom both provided apologies. And the ISD Admiral (Forget his name) also apologized. But it is true, the ISDs in question should ask for apologies if they want the community to forgive them. Fair points. I have no complaint with Guard, Navigator, Phantom, or the ISD Admiral. But an "apology-by-proxy" is a faint substitute for the genuine article.
MDD
|
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
146
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:26:00 -
[207] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'? Well I know that if you call someone a f------ moron the result is a 6 month ban, but if you get on a stage at fanfest and encourage all the attendants, those watching via live stream to single out and harass a specific player in the goal for them to commit suicide in real life, the ban is only 30 days. So I would say calling someone 'dumb' has a value of a triple cyber bully. I could be off with the conversion ratio there. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:29:00 -
[208] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:... I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ... ... DMC You clearly haven't a clue what happened. Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered. And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there. And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen. And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP. So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself. Heh, I have every right to post my opinion and even without knowing the actual specifics, I still stand by my original reply which, by the way, was addressed to CCP, ISD and CCL. Definitely not to you or your alt. I've been an active member of this community for 4 years and have watched these forums degenerate into the mosh-pit they currently are so don't try to talk down to me acting like you've been grievously wronged.. I know just exactly how quickly these forums can get out of hand and in those situations it needs to be nipped in the bud. Regardless of the small mistake made by linking to a locked thread, the intention is still forthright and just, despite what you or any other dissenting person has to say. Trolling, regardless if it's mild or not, is not allowed as per forum rules. Same with duplicate topic posting. I can understand a situation of being overwhelmed by a flood of duplicate threads and quite frankly, I would have sent them all to 'The Locker' as well. I also would have reported various characters who insist on escalating the issue, much like you and your fellow cohorts are doing now. Crunchie Attuxors wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. Except, you know, that is not the case. For someone claiming, implicitly, to have a high horse, you are actually taking this opportunity to engage in the same behavior. If you would have been active in the last few days, you would have seen what we are talking about. The issue was not that there were rule violations. The issue was that rules were being interpreted and enforced in manners that rather than promote better flow in the forums, they made matters worse. Quite frankly, your post is also has an "offensive disrespectful anti social attitude" in so far as is lumps together those with legitimate concerns with the few bad apples and confuses the legitimate issues of moderation being needed and the ISD being a good way to do that, with the issue of ISD incompetence and lack of planning on the part of CCP. And furthermore, it uses tones that are not far from what you denounce. Bottom line: you are not practicing what you preach and your post is not helpful and is in fact ignorant of the facts at hand. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. My reply was a generalization addressed to CCP, ISD and CCL. The problem here is people like you who keep ranting and raving, definitely blowing things out of proportion and basically instigating a flame war. You not only sow the seeds of discontent, you make personal attacks against CCP, ISD, CCL and me. Please read my reply to Corina Jarr since it also applies to you as well.
Keep ranting and raving You not only sow the seeds of discontent, you make personal attacks against CCP, ISD, CCL and me.
Who are you to accused me of anything? You sound exacly like the players you where stereotyping. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
910
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:31:00 -
[209] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:... I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ... ... DMC You clearly haven't a clue what happened. Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered. And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there. And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen. And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP. So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself. Heh, I have every right to post my opinion and even without knowing the actual specifics, I still stand by my original reply which, by the way, was addressed to CCP, ISD and CCL. Definitely not to you or your alt. I've been an active member of this community for 4 years and have watched these forums degenerate into the mosh-pit they currently are so don't try to talk down to me acting like you've been grievously wronged.. I know just exactly how quickly these forums can get out of hand and in those situations it needs to be nipped in the bud. Regardless of the small mistake made by linking to a locked thread, the intention is still forthright and just, despite what you or any other dissenting person has to say. Trolling, regardless if it's mild or not, is not allowed as per forum rules. Same with duplicate topic posting. I can understand a situation of being overwhelmed by a flood of duplicate threads and quite frankly, I would have sent them all to 'The Locker' as well. I also would have reported various characters who insist on escalating the issue, much like you and your fellow cohorts are doing now.
I apologize for the harshness of my reply. Was letting events of the day bleed my feelings onto the forums.
I do agree that CCP and crew should take action to remove trolling posts. However not by locking threads and then saying they were locked for a completely different and incorrect reason. Whether the intention was good, the effects were not. It caused distrust in the ISDs, such that will be hard for some to let go of. If a cop shoots a bystander, he still gets reprimanded even if his intention was to get a dangerous terrorist (note, just using it as an example, this is nowhere near that scale). And the public reacts much like the community in general did a few days ago.
If you follow my posts on this issue, you would see that I have been at the front of trying to help, not hinder, CCPs efforts. I want the ISDs to remain, just with more effort made to clearly communicate what is going on, rather than the near useless one liners. I certainly have not been escalating the issue. I had no part in the insanity, and would have tried to calm folks down if I had been online.
I had no issue with the majority of your post, just the bit where you praised the ISDs without knowing what had happened. I again apologize for the way I tried to get my point across. It could have been better.
Also, I don't have an alt. |
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
113
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:58:00 -
[210] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.
Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen. Serious question: have the "couple of green recruits" apologized and asked for forgiveness? If not, it's rather presumptuous to assume that forgiveness will be provided where none is sought. MDD To be fair, while I agree, CCP Guard and CCP Phantom both provided apologies. And the ISD Admiral (Forget his name) also apologized. But it is true, the ISDs in question should ask for apologies if they want the community to forgive them.
My name is Eshtir and as you said correctly, i am the Vice Admiral of the CCL team and i am responsible for the CCL volunteers (how can you not know this )
Since the CCL volunteers get to carry out my orders, you already have mine in the very first page of the thread. I am sorry to mention it, but this is turning into a witch hunt and that is not what i wish for my volunteers. People ask for apologies, yet carry out the witty remarks about said ISD in other threads, their forum signatures and in posts. So i ask you, what difference would it make? Will people stop to abuse and threaten said volunteer?
Will the training effort be doubled and be way more indepth? Yes! Will you believe my words? Probably not, but i will let my actions speak for me. Though that will take some time.
I always have high regards for this community, this is what fuels me as volunteer for over 7 years and i plan to continue to do my job here.
ISD staff will never use their ingame identities and CCP Guard already adressed why, i see no need to repeat that. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3212
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:01:00 -
[211] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote: In DMC's post, he admits that he is unaware of the particulars of the incidents that occurred, but then goes on to praise the work of the ISD. I think I'm not alone in my distaste for that unsupportable "fanboi-ism"; it tends to color my judgment of the rest of his words.
I praised the job they've been doing in cleaning up the forums, which has been very noticeable over the past few weeks. What I find distasteful is the "fanboi-ism" lynch-mob mentality that's currently being instigated by a few vocal players.
MailDeadDrop wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:To be fair, while I agree, CCP Guard and CCP Phantom both provided apologies. And the ISD Admiral (Forget his name) also apologized. But it is true, the ISDs in question should ask for apologies if they want the community to forgive them. Fair points. I have no complaint with Guard, Navigator, Phantom, or the ISD Admiral. But an "apology-by-proxy" is a faint substitute for the genuine article. MDD
Were either of you grievously wronged by their actions? They have nothing to apologize for, definitely not because a couple of players demand it.
Vaju Enki wrote:
Keep ranting and raving You not only sow the seeds of discontent, you make personal attacks against CCP, ISD, CCL and me.
Who are you to accused me of anything? You sound exacly like the players you where stereotyping.
My reply was to Crunchie Attuxors yet you seem to be taking it personally, much like an alt character would. I don't know who you are but you're obviously someone who want's to incite a forum flame war with me. |
|
CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2559
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:05:00 -
[212] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:CCP Guard wrote:
Don't get me wrong, it would have its benefits, but more downsides in my opinion.
One word: metagame. If ISDs used their in-game names, it would mean their actions would be judged by the rules of the game, not the forums. It creates an untenable friction. That is different from the CSM, which indeed must be directly accountable. However, there has to be a way to make them community accountable. Perhaps a quality survey like that used in petitions. That way CCP can have data beyond the (potentially) self-serving subjective assessment of the ISD. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" is a real problem. We can both accept the need for policing, and be skeptical of the good intentions of the police, and in particular, certain police officers. While in real life this is a hard question, it shouldn't be for CCP, who are a software company that can play god. I pay CCP good money so they can do what I wish I could do, why waste it! :) For example, CCP could compare the number of actions performed with the feedback received on those actions, and monitor it, with monthly reporting - much like the anti-bot /rmt efforts we all like and support but with more data.
You make some good points and what I forgot to add in my previous reply is relevant to this...that while ISD are not here under their own player names and the community therefore doesn't have the same ability as they would otherwise, to pass their own judgment on their objectivity of any given ISD, we certainly have that ability. Along with taking care to select people with a history indicative of strong moral fiber, ISD are mentored and monitored by us. We are also well equipped to scrutinize any accusations of foul play should someone from the community have such suspicions. We watch the watchmen ;)
Not that I'm terribly worried about such a scenario ever playing out , but just the same as when it comes to staff, we like to have the tools and processes in place in case something happens and we want you guys to know that we do have them in place.
CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:35:00 -
[213] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:
Who are you to accused us of anything? You sound exacly like the players you where stereotyping.
Not only that, he is doing it with the support and encouragement of a representative of the company we pay money to.
It seems to me, there is license to be abusive as long as it is in the service of CCP and its employees and volunteers. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:37:00 -
[214] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker. Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers. As I've told you before Jade, you're in no position to be throwing stones on this issue since the same happened to CCP Sreegs in his former job after he clashed with you on these very forums and the CSM. You're trying to have your cake and eat it: Somebody goes to your employer and tells them embarrassing stories about what you supposedly do on the internet, you yell from every rooftop that its a Goonswarm conspiracy and we as an alliance are collectively to blame. Somebody does the same to Sreegs and you throw your hands up and say 'nothing to do with me or my alliance, could have been anyone, its a big internet out there'.
speaking of which; isnt that exactly what mittens was crying about on EVE Radio? How cyberbulling is the same as child molesting and having that tag can damage your ability to have a job? Looks like you guys can dish it out but as for taking it........
CCP Guard wrote: We watch the watchmen ;)
Who watches those who watch the watchmen O.o http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:41:00 -
[215] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:We watch the watchmen ;)
Yes, but for example, right in this thread, CCP Navigator supported a nasty attack by a player on those who have shown displeasure with CCP, seemingly encouraging further nasty attacks in this thread by said player.
So you see the problem?
The ISD, devoid of open community evaluations, become the tool of a clique.
I am all for rules, but I am for non-arbitrary enforcement. And while mistakes are inevitable, they can also be prevented and mitigated by processes and technology - and crowdsourcing. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:46:00 -
[216] - Quote
Balak Ragnek wrote:I'm all for giving these forums a clean up and recognise that the cultural reset is going to take a little while so some suggestion on how this might be helped.
1) Next time people log onto the forums have the forum rules come up and require people to read and confirm they understand the rules before being allowed to post again. Backing this up I would suggest a refresh of the rules to ensure comments and clarifications being made here are included.
2) Notify people of when their posts have been cut or removed. I don't think this needs extra explanation by the ISD in the first instance
3) If people have a series of posts that need editing then require further posts to be seen and approved by a member of ISD. At this point the ISD member can explain reasons for further posts being changed.
4) Perhaps a section in the new player tutorials can be added in game giving players some more direction on where to look for more info and getting involved in the community whilst of course pointing out the forum rules.
+1 Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
229
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:55:00 -
[217] - Quote
Within 6 months the null sec alliances will make up the vast vast majority of the ISD, and given CCP's refusal to post any in-game information about the "volunteers", there will be zero ways to prove it, other than the circumstantial evidence of what was edited...oh wait, if it is edited or removed, and the poster banned, there will be no evidence.
The best conspiracies are the ones impossible to prove.
CCP, given you plan on banning ALL accounts associated with an targeted poster, it sounds like you are going to use the IP address or personal information of the targeted poster to nail all of his accounts.
So do the same indepth checking on your "volunteers". If you find that someone who is in the ISD with a non-affiliated account, but you search on that IP or personal information, and you find that they have another account with chars in the goons, a pretty good chance their allegiance lies with the goon suppression team. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
588
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:07:00 -
[218] - Quote
I see a good market opportunity here for people who manufacture tinfoil. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:14:00 -
[219] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote: My reply was to Crunchie Attuxors yet you seem to be taking it personally, much like an alt character would. I don't know who you are but you're obviously someone who want's to incite a forum flame war with me.
I thought you were the champion of peace and tranquility in the forum, yet you launch this uncalled for, bellingerent, challenge. And try to turn simple agreement into a tin foil conspiracy about alts. In the same thread you denounce metagaming, you are metagaming. It makes absolute sense! (not)
Let me put it to you this way: you lose all credibility with me, when your words don't match your actions. Just because you are emboldened that a CCP employee unwisely sought to sanction your behavior, it doesn't mean we have to tolerate it.
So of us, unlike obviously yourself, actually want a productive forum, in which moderation plays a role that advances the interests of the community as a whole, and not used as an instrument for further metagaming.
Your kind of belligerent attitude is one of the things that should be banned for the forums. Yet CCP encouraged it defacto, and you have degenerated further and further.
This doesn't bode well for the whole "we watch the watchmen" idea... if even the very thread this idea is mentioned it fails so spectacularly. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:16:00 -
[220] - Quote
The time has come to "face the music". I look back at some of my actions and find that I wish I could retract them. All I can do is to issue a heart-felt apology for any errors that I have made and make a solemn promise to try to do better.
A bit of information about myself. I am one of the older players of EVE and have been away for a period due to a massive heart attack. I originally started with a corporation that played extensively in null space, but since my return I find care bearing a bit more to my liking for now.
I will undertake to provide an explanation of any action that I may take. However, when I make a mistake, please file a petition since that is a sure way to get my attention.
Again, I apologize for my part in the recent problems.
Fly safe.
ISD Tyrozan Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:23:00 -
[221] - Quote
ISD Tyrozan wrote:The time has come to "face the music". I look back at some of my actions and find that I wish I could retract them. All I can do is to issue a heart-felt apology for any errors that I have made and make a solemn promise to try to do better.
A bit of information about myself. I am one of the older players of EVE and have been away for a period due to a massive heart attack. I originally started with a corporation that played extensively in null space, but since my return I find care bearing a bit more to my liking for now.
I will undertake to provide an explanation of any action that I may take. However, when I make a mistake, please file a petition since that is a sure way to get my attention.
Again, I apologize for my part in the recent problems.
Fly safe.
Thank you! Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:26:00 -
[222] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:My name is Eshtir and as you said correctly, i am the Vice Admiral of the CCL team and i am responsible for the CCL volunteers (how can you not know this ) I am old and my memory isn't what it used to be. I'll go out on a limb and suggest the same holds true for Crunchie.
ISD Eshtir wrote:I am sorry to mention it, but this is turning into a witch hunt and that is not what i wish for my volunteers. People ask for apologies, yet carry out the witty remarks about said ISD in other threads, their forum signatures and in posts. I think the sniping and biting comments (*) are a reflection of the lack of respect that those players have for those ISD volunteers. If you want those to cease then you'll need to address the lack of respect. (Note: I'm not meaning to imply that you must, or even should, concern yourself with the sniping, only trying to highlight the reasonable interpretation.)
ISD Eshtir wrote:Will the training effort be doubled and be way more indepth? Yes! Since this thread is about the future of the CCL, and since you're talking about changes to the training of ISD volunteers, would it be appropriate for you to detail how they were originally trained and how you are changing the training to better prepare them? Perhaps the community has some insights into the training.
ISD Eshtir wrote:Will you believe my words? Probably not, but i will let my actions speak for me. Though that will take some time. You're sounding a little defensive. If my posts have you feeling that way, I apologize. I was not directly impacted by the incidents and only have a clinical interest in discussing how to move forward from them.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Were either of you grievously wronged by their actions? They have nothing to apologize for, definitely not because a couple of players demand it. In my experience, an apology is appropriate when a mistake has been committed, regardless of the impact of that mistake. YMMV.
MDD (*) As English is perhaps not your first language, allow me to offer a more precise description than "witty". Witty implies humor with an absence of malice. Those remarks in the other threads you mention seem to have some malice behind them, so "biting comment" or "sniping" is a better description.
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:28:00 -
[223] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: Other thrid party sites do not have a legal obligation to keep their forums teen rated and suitable for 13 year olds. We do. This means that wht other forums can allow we are not able to permit.
1) Nobody has a problem with you snipping words that get around the curse filter. The stuff that's been snipped and edited has not had anything to do with maintaining the Teen rating.
2) So far that I know, no rating system rates the online content of games (at least the ESRB doesn't). They rate what the game provides and say something like "Online Experience may Vary"
3) If it took a forum insurrection for you to notice the problem (that has been going on for much longer than 24hrs), why should we expect the future of the ISD CCL team to be any different? Your lead ISD STAR guy came in with this groaner:
ISD Athechu wrote:We are players of the same game as you and we enjoy it like you. The difference is that we have decided to contribute our time to the community that makes EVE so great.
That attitude is exactly why volunteer moderators will not work in a forum like this. With volunteer mods (especially with that attitude), you're either going to suffer the fate of the Blizzard forums or you're going to have a cycle of Insurrection -> Reigning the ISDs in -> Letting them loose -> Insurrection -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:32:00 -
[224] - Quote
ISD Tyrozan wrote:I look back at some of my actions and find that I wish I could retract them.
Bertrand Russell wrote:One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.
Consequently, that you feel "doubt and uncertainty" about your prior acts speaks well of you.
In more vernacular: thanks for manning-up.
MDD |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:40:00 -
[225] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:... I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ... ... DMC You clearly haven't a clue what happened. Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered. And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there. And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen. And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP. So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself. We posted almost at the same time but yours came on top, but I gotta say +1. Obviously DMC doesn't have the slightest clue of what happened and what is being talked about both in the forums and in the petitions. This does not in any way detract from his overall message which I thought was well written, on topic and I find it pretty difficult to disagree with any of it. Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve. Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.
His overall message was based on a faulty premise.
We could keep berating them, but the issue is that they've been making the same errors for more than a week and you didn't notice.
Yeah, mistakes happen. Breaches of trust happen. The passive tense just happens.
Failure to own up to your mistakes in an adult way (If you have to use the passive tense, you're not being an adult) means that it will take longer to recover from the mistake. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
589
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:41:00 -
[226] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Consequently, that you feel "doubt and uncertainty" about your prior acts speaks well of you.
In more vernacular: thanks for manning-up.
MDD
Hello! Did you know CCP added a nifty "Signature" function where you don't have to sign your posts manually like you're new to the Internet? Congratulations! Your posting is now better. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:50:00 -
[227] - Quote
ISD Tyrozan wrote:The time has come to "face the music". I look back at some of my actions and find that I wish I could retract them. All I can do is to issue a heart-felt apology for any errors that I have made and make a solemn promise to try to do better.
A bit of information about myself. I am one of the older players of EVE and have been away for a period due to a massive heart attack. I originally started with a corporation that played extensively in null space, but since my return I find care bearing a bit more to my liking for now.
I will undertake to provide an explanation of any action that I may take. However, when I make a mistake, please file a petition since that is a sure way to get my attention.
Again, I apologize for my part in the recent problems.
Fly safe.
This is how you apologize. This is how an adult apologizes. It's all Active Voice sentences (and a few fragments).
Thank you Tyrozan. Apology accepted. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:57:00 -
[228] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:ISD Eshtir wrote:My name is Eshtir and as you said correctly, i am the Vice Admiral of the CCL team and i am responsible for the CCL volunteers (how can you not know this ) I am old and my memory isn't what it used to be. I'll go out on a limb and suggest the same holds true for Crunchie.
Does the old man smell transmit over the internet? OH NOES!!!
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:58:00 -
[229] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Hello! Did you know CCP added a nifty "Signature" function where you don't have to sign your posts manually like you're new to the Internet? Congratulations! Your posting is now better.
You ruined the moment Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
589
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 19:02:00 -
[230] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:You ruined the moment
Yeah, well, you kinda ruined the last few pages of this thread with tinfoil and badposting that CCP really should have told you to stop doing, so I don't feel bad. At all, in fact. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 19:15:00 -
[231] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:You ruined the moment Yeah, well, you kinda ruined the last few pages of this thread with tinfoil and badposting that CCP really should have told you to stop doing, so I don't feel bad. At all, in fact.
Troll detected. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Lord Zim
960
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 19:17:00 -
[232] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:You ruined the moment Yeah, well, you kinda ruined the last few pages of this thread with tinfoil and badposting that CCP really should have told you to stop doing, so I don't feel bad. At all, in fact. Troll detected. Bridge detected. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:01:00 -
[233] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:You ruined the moment Yeah, well, you kinda ruined the last few pages of this thread with tinfoil and badposting that CCP really should have told you to stop doing, so I don't feel bad. At all, in fact. Troll detected. Bridge detected.
Cohen the Barbarian, this is your cue... Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
114
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:04:00 -
[234] - Quote
You are going off topic guys .... ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:11:00 -
[235] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:You are going off topic guys ....
Thank you, I got carried away on the reference... Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:21:00 -
[236] - Quote
Balak Ragnek wrote:Its very important to realise that just becuase you don't think it should be an issue does not mean that is actually the case. Where do you draw the line then? In recent years we have seen more and more ridiculous cases of people suing others over allegedly un-PC behavior. It seems to me that right now the only requirement for this appears to be that you felt offended. |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:25:00 -
[237] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:No. CCP do not tolerate religious, racial or sexist messaging which is used to cause discomfort to other players.
That will not change, ever. But isnGÇÖt this the crux of the whole debate? A few people claim that they are offended by the use of these words even though they are not the ones addressed. If two people talk to each other and one of them says, for instance, that he himself is GÇ£jewingGÇ¥ or something of that sort (I have never seen it being used myself) then you simply cannot claim that the intent of this phrase is GÇ£to cause discomfort to other playersGÇ¥. Especially if neither of the two interlocutors take offense to it. Why should a third party that is listening in on this conversation have a say in what words these two people may or may not use? Where will this end? Mandatory trigger warnings so that victims of r ape who might be playing EVE are not discomforted when they stumble upon someone mentioning GÇ£abuseGÇ¥ in Local? People have the right to be offended but they do not have the right to censor everyone elseGÇÖs speech because of that. Just my two cents.
You're making this out to be far more complicated than it is. On a public forum, third parties are not just "listening in" as though it's a private converation. It's the equivalent of shouting it out to the world. Just use a bit of common sense - if you really can't do without using words that people might reasonably find offensive, then send a private message or something.
Yes, "reasonable" does have some leeway. Let's not get all interweblawyerz about it.
|
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:36:00 -
[238] - Quote
We will be watching. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:48:00 -
[239] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:apologies for stating the obvious but a lot of the recent troubles seem to come down to one very simple issue:
Q: Who has the strongest motivation to volunteer for the CCL? A: Someone who was not happy with the way forum rules were enforced pre-CCL.
People who were basically happy with the way forum rules were enforced by CCP moderators (i.e. extremely sporadically & inconsistently) had little reason to act and those who would want forum rules to be relaxed knew they would not be able to change anything by joining CCL. However, CCL gave those who were fed up about CCP tolerating constant violations of the forum rules an outlet for action (and there isn't much CCP can do about them - after all they only enforce the rules that were created by CCP).
A second point I'd like to bring up is that I don't think having "anonymous" moderators was a good idea. These ISD characters don't have any reputation to gain or to lose through their actions, they don't command any respect and they deemphasize the "those people moderating the community have been chosen from the community itself" aspect which is crucial for the success of this experiment. It also invites speculations about hidden bias on part of the ISD moderators as their true identity is not known. In my opinion CCP would have done good to get respected community figures on board for the CCL and should have leveraged that respect to enforce forum rules. If "ISD Lady Spank" locks my C&P thread for trolling I have little choice but to shut up, look into the mirror and ask myself if I have become a badposter. When "ISD Whatsyourname" does the same my initial reaction is that he probably doesn't "get" C&P anyways. I agree with your assessment that people who think forum moderation can be improved are likely to be the ones that apply but then I don't think that's a band thing since we sort of agree, and that being one of the reasons for starting the CCL...other major reasons being more boots on the ground to gather good feedback, and to interact in a pro-active manner etc. However, I disagree with the argument that we would all be better off if they moderated under their in-game names. While that can work very well in a community that's purely based around a forum and all social repercussions are contained on that forum, it wouldn't work the same in a community where the forum is just a part of a persistent galaxy where their corporations, assets, relationships and livelihood can be severely affected by who's toes they step on during their daily duties. Would they constantly have to worry about things like whether or not to lock someone's thread because he might toss them out of an alliance if they did? Or about editing this guy's thread because he runs the meanest infiltration group known to man and would probably be feasting on their corpses in a few months time if he knew their in-game identities? :) Don't get me wrong, it would have its benefits, but more downsides in my opinion.
I could see that alliance getting wardeced because they kicked a beloved forum moderator from the alliance just because he was doing his job. |
TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 21:00:00 -
[240] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:
This does not in any way detract from his overall message which I thought was well written, on topic and I find it pretty difficult to disagree with any of it.
Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.
Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.
The community will berate your green recruits because you sent them out as green recruits into one of the most populated forums in EVE with what seemed like minimal training, no idea what to expect and no tolerance to any criticism. You need to teach your recruits that, as with Incarna, we know their job better than they do. The community will deal with shiptoasters far more effectively then an ISD will, except for the all-damning lock. This is why they need to listen to us rather than thinking "these guys are morons. Locklocklocklocklocklocklock".
Which is why we need to be able to discuss moderation. Because damnit son, if we can't tell you how to improve, you just can't improve. End of. "We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming. |
|
Velicia Tuoro
Light Speed Interactive The Mockers AO
82
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 21:04:00 -
[241] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: Truth of the matter is that they are not deleting good content from your posts and leaving bad stuff there.
In general perhaps, but... and it's bad form to point it out... but this is exactly what has happened. I've had a post deleted, and then restored after asking. And that is the point. Yes you've got guys learning how to do this job, but you need to be careful about how destructive that learning is, and wholesale deleting of content should be right at the bottom of the list for controlling a situation. (well, apart from Bans, but they don't have that power!) Senior Representative Light Speed Interactive http://www.lightspeedinteractive.net |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 21:14:00 -
[242] - Quote
Given the open discussion it caused with the Devs. Id say it was worth the ban on posting privileges with my 8 yearold main.
Really CCP, thank you for addressing the situation and opening this dialogue.
"Could I request that ISD please lock my shirt into my trousers?" --áLilliana Stelles 2012.06.25 Never forget. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
319
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 21:35:00 -
[243] - Quote
And as I wake up this morning is seems that the ISD has taken further action against my continued forum existence.
I await a response to my petition not with baited breath as I would be dead many times over.
I cannot wait to get an interpretation of which of the precious "rules" have been breached in some heinous forum crime.
I will keep you posted as this one will likely be interesting. |
Velicia Tuoro
Light Speed Interactive The Mockers AO
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 21:38:00 -
[244] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:You are going off topic guys ....
Good moderation :) Senior Representative Light Speed Interactive http://www.lightspeedinteractive.net |
Lando Tarsadan
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 22:52:00 -
[245] - Quote
Here we go again,
Yet another attemt to use volunteers whom has an interest in your business as customers.
It has happned in just about every MMO there is and imho it has always failed. People whom most of the time sign up for this line of work are mainly power hungry/angry and what not with the current state of business and will most of the time abuse their power cause of eagerness to use them rather than have common sence.
As well as several others here I have also worked/working/volunteered with CS and have been for a good 20 years. as you should know (as its already your job) it takes skill/knowledge patience and understanding to police others. (I use police as thats what moderation is in general about)
So forth we have already seen how moderation can harm more than do good. Already seen several posts in CnP where i would rather have you delete the entire post by the person than read you snip snip snip edited removed by ISD whatsmyname. With little to no reason why it was done.
There is forum rules and we should all follow them. In the perfect world we would not need moderations. But since we need them i would rather see someone with no connection whom is paied by CCP uphold the rules rather than someone whoms hobby/spare time usage is within the same world as he/she polices. in my mind it creates a state of conflict we all play on the same server. and if ISD whatsmyname run into a person on the forum that he has a beef with in game. would be reason enogh to try and fit the vaugest rule violations on that person than his corp CEOs violations. (best part is the violator dont know the ISD person in game have a beef with him) I can understand the anonymoous need for the moderators as they are customers.
You state you will monitor and so forth and maybe you will catch the moderation on the person the ISD has the beef on. but it will be alot harder to catch the places where there were not used moderation as no action were taken. ofcause you have a team where another ISD or CCP employ might catch the violation but at a much later time than it initially could happen cause of favortism was applied.
I know you guys are probably understaffed after the rotation that was made after incarna but pulling in volunteers is imho not the best course of solution to your problem.
Best regards
Lando
PS: Grama and spelling errors you get for free:D
|
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3222
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 00:22:00 -
[246] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote: My reply was to Crunchie Attuxors yet you seem to be taking it personally, much like an alt character would. I don't know who you are but you're obviously someone who want's to incite a forum flame war with me.
I thought you were the champion of peace and tranquility in the forum, yet you launch this uncalled for, bellingerent, challenge. And try to turn simple agreement into a tin foil conspiracy about alts. In the same thread you denounce metagaming, you are metagaming. It makes absolute sense! (not) Let me put it to you this way: you lose all credibility with me, when your words don't match your actions. Just because you are emboldened that a CCP employee unwisely sought to sanction your behavior, it doesn't mean we have to tolerate it. So of us, unlike obviously yourself, actually want a productive forum, in which moderation plays a role that advances the interests of the community as a whole, and not used as an instrument for further metagaming. Your kind of belligerent attitude is one of the things that should be banned for the forums. Yet CCP encouraged it defacto, and you have degenerated further and further. This doesn't bode well for the whole "we watch the watchmen" idea... if even the very thread this idea is mentioned it fails so spectacularly.
OK, so you wanna make this personal.
This makes the 8th or 9th reply posted by you making insulting references and untrue statements about me and CCP. I lost count of how many false statements you posted about CCP, ISD and CCL. It's a shame you feel the need to do this in a CCP thread.
You keep trying to redirect attention onto me by saying I'm being confrontational. What's ironic is that you're the one who is constantly posting sarcastic malicious statements directed personally towards me with the intention to insult, berate and demean, not to mention constantly implying some sort of collusion or double standard by CCP. Not only have you been belligerent and antagonistic towards me, you've also been condescending and demanding towards CCP, ISD and CCL as well.
You have constantly over sensationalized the issue in this thread, spouting lies and posting rude remarks, all with the intention to incite others into rage. You keep saying you're all about the rules and trying to help create a productive forum yet your actions tell a different story. Clearly you're either trying to gain some sort of control over moderation for your own benefit or at the very least, extract some sort of undeserved self entitled revenge.
Quite frankly I had expected you to stop with the personal attacks after the 3rd or 4th reference, but you just couldn't help yourself. You and the 3 or 4 other characters going on the warpath in this thread are definitely meta-gaming this issue, intentionally looking to crucify someone. The only person who is actually emboldened by all of this is you. Due to the topic of this thread you think you can pretty much say anything and if moderation is implemented, you would cry foul and make up some big farce about double standard bullshit..
Your constant yelling and twisting things around, portraying everything out of context in an attempt to gain some sort of twisted advantage in this thread is a fool's errand. Your type of attitude and behavior is the reason forum moderators are needed. Guaranteed if you weren't hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, you'd be singing a very different song. But guess what, since you insist on constantly posting personal attacks and slanderous statements intended to insult and enrage me, you now have my complete undivided attention.
If you want to report this, I'm sure moderators would be interested in viewing your multiple posted replies that are directed personally towards me.
MailDeadDrop wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Were either of you grievously wronged by their actions? They have nothing to apologize for, definitely not because a couple of players demand it. In my experience, an apology is appropriate when a mistake has been committed, regardless of the impact of that mistake. YMMV. MDD (*) As English is perhaps not your first language, allow me to offer a more precise description than "witty". Witty implies humor with an absence of malice. Those remarks in the other threads you mention seem to have some malice behind them, so "biting comment" or "sniping" is a better description.
In my experience, an apology is given freely to those who were actually wronged, not by the demands of a few sanctimonious self righteous sinners claiming they were 'Unjustly Crucified' when actually all they're looking for is to get a little payback for having their posted replies moderated.
Aside from your fail attempt at sarcasm while trying to insult my intelligence, English is my only language. I live in Los Angeles, California, USA. Feel free to come to LA, I'll be sure to treat you like a King. |
Lord Zim
963
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 00:32:00 -
[247] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Aside from your fail attempt at sarcasm while trying to insult my intelligence, English is my only language. I live in Los Angeles, California, USA. Feel free to come to LA, I'll be sure to treat you like a King. Tut tut, physical threats? |
Kaeoz
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 00:37:00 -
[248] - Quote
Forums better place with mods working. |
Malcom Vincent
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 00:39:00 -
[249] - Quote
Learning curve = Cliff.
I would not expect voluntary players with little to no prior training to slide right into awesome from day one.
Outside of being gratefull for them donating their own spare time to do it, its propably a good idea for several posters to adjust expectations to a realistic level.
Perhaps, if the program had been running for a year we'd have experienced moderators so new mods would have someone to lean on in case of doubt.
Outside of that, expect to see the timeframe of PM's to ISD's be that of your own. They are availble when they are awake and available, not when it suits you. Expecting responses within a few minutes is simply unrealistic given the sheer volume of the forums and the availability.
Since we have a history of interviewing ISD's on EVE Stratics, I'd be interested in taking up a new one with the ISD's here.
EVE Stratics! Managing Editor Interviews, Guides, Reviews and more! |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 01:02:00 -
[250] - Quote
Malcom Vincent wrote: Perhaps, if the program had been running for a year we'd have experienced moderators so new mods would have someone to lean on in case of doubt.
Psst: The program didn't start today.
I am curious exactly when the CCL program did start. I know that I noticed issues about a week ago. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 02:11:00 -
[251] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank.
ISD Athechu wrote:To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception.
CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. No Nav, don't worry. My perception is now very clear when it comes to the ISD.
[/quote]
Hello Graic.
I totally get it. You do not like ISD and there is not much I can do to change your perception.
My role is to ensure that ISD work for the vast majority of the EVE Online players. The concept of pleasing everyone is an impossibility so i am well aware that not everyone will be happy. [/quote]
The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to form moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
929
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 02:32:00 -
[252] - Quote
I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.
Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 03:53:00 -
[253] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Balak Ragnek wrote:I'm all for giving these forums a clean up and recognise that the cultural reset is going to take a little while so some suggestion on how this might be helped.
1) Next time people log onto the forums have the forum rules come up and require people to read and confirm they understand the rules before being allowed to post again. Backing this up I would suggest a refresh of the rules to ensure comments and clarifications being made here are included.
2) Notify people of when their posts have been cut or removed. I don't think this needs extra explanation by the ISD in the first instance
3) If people have a series of posts that need editing then require further posts to be seen and approved by a member of ISD. At this point the ISD member can explain reasons for further posts being changed.
4) Perhaps a section in the new player tutorials can be added in game giving players some more direction on where to look for more info and getting involved in the community whilst of course pointing out the forum rules. +1
+2
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Within 6 months the null sec alliances will make up the vast vast majority of the ISD, and given CCP's refusal to post any in-game information about the "volunteers", there will be zero ways to prove it, other than the circumstantial evidence of what was edited...oh wait, if it is edited or removed, and the poster banned, there will be no evidence.
The best conspiracies are the ones impossible to prove.
CCP, given you plan on banning ALL accounts associated with an targeted poster, it sounds like you are going to use the IP address or personal information of the targeted poster to nail all of his accounts.
So do the same indepth checking on your "volunteers". If you find that someone who is in the ISD with a non-affiliated account, but you search on that IP or personal information, and you find that they have another account with chars in the goons, a pretty good chance their allegiance lies with the goon suppression team.
Sounds dangerously like a rumor http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 04:17:00 -
[254] - Quote
Lando Tarsadan wrote:
There is forum rules and we should all follow them. In the perfect world we would not need moderations. But since we need them i would rather see someone with no connection whom is paied by CCP uphold the rules rather than someone whoms hobby/spare time usage is within the same world as he/she polices. in my mind it creates a state of conflict we all play on the same server. and if ISD whatsmyname run into a person on the forum that he has a beef with in game. would be reason enogh to try and fit the vaugest rule violations on that person than his corp CEOs violations. (best part is the violator dont know the ISD person in game have a beef with him) I can understand the anonymoous need for the moderators as they are customers.
Not to mention the amount of metagaming that goes on in this game honestly Does forum moderating become the next stage of the metagame?
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote: My reply was to Crunchie Attuxors yet you seem to be taking it personally, much like an alt character would. I don't know who you are but you're obviously someone who want's to incite a forum flame war with me.
I thought you were the champion of peace and tranquility in the forum, yet you launch this uncalled for, bellingerent, challenge. And try to turn simple agreement into a tin foil conspiracy about alts. In the same thread you denounce metagaming, you are metagaming. It makes absolute sense! (not) Let me put it to you this way: you lose all credibility with me, when your words don't match your actions. Just because you are emboldened that a CCP employee unwisely sought to sanction your behavior, it doesn't mean we have to tolerate it. So of us, unlike obviously yourself, actually want a productive forum, in which moderation plays a role that advances the interests of the community as a whole, and not used as an instrument for further metagaming. Your kind of belligerent attitude is one of the things that should be banned for the forums. Yet CCP encouraged it defacto, and you have degenerated further and further. This doesn't bode well for the whole "we watch the watchmen" idea... if even the very thread this idea is mentioned it fails so spectacularly. OK, so you wanna make this personal. This makes the 8th or 9th reply posted by you making insulting references and untrue statements about me and CCP. I lost count of how many false statements you posted about CCP, ISD and CCL. It's a shame you feel the need to do this in a CCP thread. You keep trying to redirect attention onto me by saying I'm being confrontational. What's ironic is that you're the one who is constantly posting sarcastic malicious statements directed personally towards me with the intention to insult, berate and demean, not to mention constantly implying some sort of collusion or double standard by CCP. Not only have you been belligerent and antagonistic towards me, you've also been condescending and demanding towards CCP, ISD and CCL as well. You have constantly over sensationalized the issue in this thread, spouting lies and posting rude remarks, all with the intention to incite others into rage. You keep saying you're all about the rules and trying to help create a productive forum yet your actions tell a different story. Clearly you're either trying to gain some sort of control over moderation for your own benefit or at the very least, extract some sort of undeserved self entitled revenge. Quite frankly I had expected you to stop with the personal attacks after the 3rd or 4th reference, but you just couldn't help yourself. You and the 3 or 4 other characters going on the warpath in this thread are definitely meta-gaming this issue, intentionally looking to crucify someone. The only person who is actually emboldened by all of this is you. Due to the topic of this thread you think you can pretty much say anything and if moderation is implemented, you would cry foul and make up some big farce about double standard bullshit.. Your constant yelling and twisting things around, portraying everything out of context in an attempt to gain some sort of twisted advantage in this thread is a fool's errand. Your type of attitude and behavior is the reason forum moderators are needed. Guaranteed if you weren't hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, you'd be singing a very different song. But guess what, since you insist on constantly posting personal attacks and slanderous statements intended to insult and enrage me, you now have my complete undivided attention. If you want to report this, I'm sure moderators would be interested in viewing your multiple posted replies that are directed personally towards me.
Given the lack of moderation amongst either of you Id say they disagree
Spaja Saist wrote:
The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site.
No; there never should have been them in a game that takes metagaming to the level this game does.
Out of curiosity, I remember there were other volunteer projects earlier, what was the volunteer system that someone got either CC info or personal info and posted it on Kugu I think it was? Who was it that stole the EVE code? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 04:25:00 -
[255] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:ISD Eshtir wrote:You are going off topic guys .... Prolly wouldve been a better cue to snip the trolling THEN point out the off topic stuff but thats me
I think it's best we not encourage snipping of posts at this early juncture. They'll eventually get the hang of what can be quelled by that kind of comment and what actually requires a more heavy handed approach. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 04:26:00 -
[256] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site.
No; there never should have been them in a game that takes metagaming to the level this game does. Out of curiosity, I remember there were other volunteer projects earlier, what was the volunteer system that someone got either CC info or personal info and posted it on Kugu I think it was? Who was it that stole the EVE code?
I thought it was giving people free stuff by leaking locations and details of events. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3222
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 04:31:00 -
[257] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out.
Untrue.
The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game.
All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription.
For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules.
The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 04:39:00 -
[258] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Spaja Saist wrote:The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out. Untrue. The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game. All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription. For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules. The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.
You really haven't been following the event's of the past day or so at all, have you?
The thing started because ISDs were snipping, editing, moving, and locking threads that were not (under any resonable interpretation of the rules) against the rules.
It got worse when a thread asking how to tuck in your shirt in the Character creator got locked in the fray.
When I troll, I'm perfectly fine with my stuff getting edited, deleted, or locked. When I srspost, it peeves me right off when my stuff gets deleted or locked. It enrages me when it gets edited.
Now, ON TOP of that. EvE has a rich and distinct style of posting a lot of that style is, say, biting. Trying to purge that style in the name of gentrification is a bad idea and will hurt the community. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3222
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 04:54:00 -
[259] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Spaja Saist wrote:The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out. Untrue. The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game. All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription. For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules. The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created. You really haven't been following the event's of the past day or so at all, have you? The thing started because ISDs were snipping, editing, moving, and locking threads that were not (under any resonable interpretation of the rules) against the rules. It got worse when a thread asking how to tuck in your shirt in the Character creator got locked in the fray. When I troll, I'm perfectly fine with my stuff getting edited, deleted, or locked. When I srspost, it peeves me right off when my stuff gets deleted or locked. It enrages me when it gets edited. Now, ON TOP of that. EvE has a rich and distinct style of posting a lot of that style is, say, biting. Trying to purge that style in the name of gentrification is a bad idea and will hurt the community.
Obviously you didn't bother to actually read my post. You wanna keep pushing this issue I will gladly pull up Eve Search and link all the reasons for moderation.
The problem started with people not abiding by the Forum Rules, constantly pushing and inciting rage, just as you are now doing.
I have no problem with the snip, edit, delete, move or locking of threads. Maybe if people reviewed the Forum Rules and posted replies in accordance with them, none of that would be necessary. I already mentioned the little mistake by CCL without having to go into detail. That could very easily happen to anyone and don't bother trying to deny it. CCP, ISD and CCL has already apologized about it and yet you keep ranting about it.
EDIT :
As for the posting style of Eve being Biting, that's your opinion which seems to be the major problem with this sub-forum. People need to read the Forum Rules and post accordingly. If they don't like it, they don't have to post in these forums. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 05:51:00 -
[260] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Obviously you didn't bother to actually read my post. You wanna keep pushing this issue I will gladly pull up Eve Search and link all the reasons for moderation.
The problem started with people not abiding by the Forum Rules, constantly pushing and inciting rage, just as you are now doing.
I have no problem with the snip, edit, delete, move or locking of threads. Maybe if people reviewed the Forum Rules and posted replies in accordance with them, none of that would be necessary. I already mentioned the little mistake by CCL without having to go into detail. That could very easily happen to anyone and don't bother trying to deny it. CCP, ISD and CCL has already apologized about it and yet you keep ranting about it.
EDIT :
As for the posting style of Eve being Biting, that's your opinion which seems to be the major problem with this sub-forum. People need to read the Forum Rules and post accordingly. If they don't like it, they don't have to post in these forums.
So the guy asking for help tucking in his shirt was breaking the rules? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 06:34:00 -
[261] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.
Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private?
Yes, and for good reason! ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 06:48:00 -
[262] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.
Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private? Yes, and for good reason!
Wait, so you can't talk to each other about locks & post removals in private, or you can't talk to us about locks & post removals (at least the ones that involve us [tricky for locks, less so for posts])?
'Cause only one of those rules makes sense. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 06:54:00 -
[263] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Eshtir wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.
Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private? Yes, and for good reason! Wait, so you can't talk to each other about locks & post removals in private, or you can't talk to us about locks & post removals (at least the ones that involve us [tricky for locks, less so for posts])? 'Cause only one of those rules makes sense.
It seems i need more coffee
We discuss it in the team and with the community team. We just can't provide feedback to forum users regarding moderation actions cia the forum, eve-mail, email or ingame chat. A forum user would need to petition under the community category.
ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 06:56:00 -
[264] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Eshtir wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.
Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private? Yes, and for good reason! Wait, so you can't talk to each other about locks & post removals in private, or you can't talk to us about locks & post removals (at least the ones that involve us [tricky for locks, less so for posts])? 'Cause only one of those rules makes sense. It seems i need more coffee We discuss it in the team and with the community team. We just can't provide feedback to forum users regarding moderation actions via the forum, eve-mail, email or ingame chat. A forum user would need to petition under the community category.
Ok, that's sensible.
If only we trusted petitions for getting initial change to happen, this wouldn't have gotten so ugly.
Edit: fixed spelling in my quote - ISD Eshtir
^^^ I wish I got to do that. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Lord Zim
964
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 07:17:00 -
[265] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created. You know, you might want to sweep before your own door before you lament how everyone else is breaking the rules:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Aside from your fail attempt at sarcasm while trying to insult my intelligence, English is my only language. I live in Los Angeles, California, USA. Feel free to come to LA, I'll be sure to treat you like a King. I didn't know RL threats were allowed under the forum rules. |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
280
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 09:39:00 -
[266] - Quote
Have a sniggerdly day zionist. |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 09:57:00 -
[267] - Quote
Kaeoz wrote:Forums better place with mods working. Not true. You might want to visit the Good Old Games forums. Little to no moderation and yet more civil than some of the the recurring threads that you find here. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3222
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 10:59:00 -
[268] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created. You know, you might want to sweep before your own door before you lament how everyone else is breaking the rules: DeMichael Crimson wrote:Aside from your fail attempt at sarcasm while trying to insult my intelligence, English is my only language. I live in Los Angeles, California, USA. Feel free to come to LA, I'll be sure to treat you like a King. I didn't know RL threats were allowed under the forum rules. You need to start sweeping your own doorway and post some proof instead of making false accusations. There is no RL threat in that reply. Probably be a good idea for you to start worring about yourself instead of constantly trying to troll others. I've seen you troll other players quite often, posting insults and berating them, just like you're trying to do now. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
320
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 11:48:00 -
[269] - Quote
Again the fun police strike:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126419&find=unread
I would argue there are plenty of other less worthy threads taking up real estate.
At least it was totally on topic of EVE discussion. Not guff about waking up next to avatars and getting likes.
This is a confusing place to visit. |
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 13:16:00 -
[270] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Spaja Saist wrote:The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out. Untrue. The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game. All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription. For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules. The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.
You really are quite clueless. Using volunteers is a recipe for disaster which was just proven beyond a doubt by the mess they caused. Nowhere in my post did I say Devs should be wasting their time moderating the forums. Although after the abortion that is Unified Inventory I wish CCP Soundwave would have spent all his time on the forums and not dropped that turd on the players. Here's a idea, hire forum moderators instead of using biased volunteers. I think personally Hilmar should fund them out of his paycheck. After the Incarna expansion last year and the lie of an apology he had to make to the player base because CCP refuses to listen to it's players, here we are once again with them repeating the same mistakes.
|
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
658
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 13:17:00 -
[271] - Quote
Graic, be serious, that is a Tom Gerard thread. He is well known for being a troll, and if you notice he has picked items to post about that would stir up the most trouble amongst the largest numbers of people. It was immediately besieged by other known trolls, some of whom are posting under alts due to being banned recently, posts with little to no content and is thus of no value at all.
Whilst it is amusing to watch such things unfold, they always turn in to nothing more than flame wars full of vitriol and petty name calling and just waste space, not to mention moderator time spent cleaning it up every 5 minutes. The fact that it was locked by CCP Spitfire should speak volumes, the man knows his way around GD like few others. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
658
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 13:40:00 -
[272] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Spaja Saist wrote:The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out. Untrue. The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game. All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription. For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules. The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created. You really are quite clueless. Using volunteers is a recipe for disaster which was just proven beyond a doubt by the mess they caused. Nowhere in my post did I say Devs should be wasting their time moderating the forums. Although after the abortion that is Unified Inventory I wish CCP Soundwave would have spent all his time on the forums and not dropped that turd on the players. Here's a idea, hire forum moderators instead of using biased volunteers. I think personally Hilmar should fund them out of his paycheck. After the Incarna expansion last year and the lie of an apology he had to make to the player base because CCP refuses to listen to it's players, here we are once again with them repeating the same mistakes.
I think you are taking this far too hard. Using volunteers is not a recipe for disaster as long as everyone understands a few basic facts.
First and foremost, no-one new to a job is EVER going to be straight off the bat awesome. Ever. In a job like this, where you are dealing with hundreds of faceless strangers who all have differing opinions, the line to tread seems to me to be a very fine one. You cannot expect someone to walk that line perfectly from the moment they start. It takes time, patience and support.
The people involved have apologised for what, quite frankly, was a simple beginners mistake. If CCP went with your suggestion to hire new, inexperienced forum moderators who haven't the slightest idea of what EVE is or how her community functions, you would likely see a much faster and decidedly more disastrous sequence of events unfold on here. I think that is the main reason why CCP uses volunteers from the community in the first place.
Now when it comes to moderator bias, various CCP and ISD staff have already made it clear that oversight of the ISD is strict and ongoing, just as it always has been. No ISD member can ban people, they can only lock, delete or modify posts, and all of that is done under the watchful eye of CCP themselves.. Any personal bias would be weeded out fairly rapidly, as would any wrong doing and these exact same rules would most likely be applied to any moderators that CCP hired from outside the community, mostly as they are based on common sense and good business practice.
As for the other items in your post, I will make no other comment than that they have no place in this discussion and appear to be personal attacks on CCP Hilmar and CCP Soundwave. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 14:01:00 -
[273] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Spaja Saist wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Spaja Saist wrote:The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out. Untrue. The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game. All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription. For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules. The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created. You really are quite clueless. Using volunteers is a recipe for disaster which was just proven beyond a doubt by the mess they caused. Nowhere in my post did I say Devs should be wasting their time moderating the forums. Although after the abortion that is Unified Inventory I wish CCP Soundwave would have spent all his time on the forums and not dropped that turd on the players. Here's a idea, hire forum moderators instead of using biased volunteers. I think personally Hilmar should fund them out of his paycheck. After the Incarna expansion last year and the lie of an apology he had to make to the player base because CCP refuses to listen to it's players, here we are once again with them repeating the same mistakes. I think you are taking this far too hard. Using volunteers is not a recipe for disaster as long as everyone understands a few basic facts. First and foremost, no-one new to a job is EVER going to be straight off the bat awesome. Ever. In a job like this, where you are dealing with hundreds of faceless strangers who all have differing opinions, the line to tread seems to me to be a very fine one. You cannot expect someone to walk that line perfectly from the moment they start. It takes time, patience and support. The people involved have apologised for what, quite frankly, was a simple beginners mistake. If CCP went with your suggestion to hire new, inexperienced forum moderators who haven't the slightest idea of what EVE is or how her community functions, you would likely see a much faster and decidedly more disastrous sequence of events unfold on here. I think that is the main reason why CCP uses volunteers from the community in the first place. Now when it comes to moderator bias, various CCP and ISD staff have already made it clear that oversight of the ISD is strict and ongoing, just as it always has been. No ISD member can ban people, they can only lock, delete or modify posts, and all of that is done under the watchful eye of CCP themselves.. Any personal bias would be weeded out fairly rapidly, as would any wrong doing and these exact same rules would most likely be applied to any moderators that CCP hired from outside the community, mostly as they are based on common sense and good business practice. As for the other items in your post, I will make no other comment than that they have no place in this discussion and appear to be personal attacks on CCP Hilmar and CCP Soundwave.
The difference is if you're being paid you have more of a vested interest to do the job right. The fact that this blew up in CCP's face shows they are not monitoring the volunteeers to the degree they claim. If they were this would never have happened. This whole thread is nothing more than CCP doing damage control.
I've been playing this game off and on since it went live and this cycle of not listening to the players, making changes anyway, players rioting over said changes then posting an apology with the promise to listen to players next time is getting really old. Why anyone would take CCP's word at this point is beyond me. It's like someone who keeps going back to an abusive spouse everytime they apologise as if they're not going to get hit again. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
363
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 14:55:00 -
[274] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:This whole thread is nothing more than CCP doing damage control.
I've been playing this game off and on since it went live and this cycle of not listening to the players, Personally I prefer the damage control to the complete ignoring of a problem. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
181
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 15:41:00 -
[275] - Quote
Getting old?
CCP GingerDude wrote: You and I are all guinea pigs for the whole of EVE. Nothing like EVE had been done before and afaikt nothing like it has emerged since. And EVE will never be bug free. If it was, it would mean we stopped experimenting. I for one hope that doesn't happen.
I'd much rather be quick and agile in fixing the breakage than waiting on perfection before releasing. This is of course a balancing act, but from where I'm sitting, I think we're doing it right. YMMV ofc and this is, like, ,my, just, you know, opinion...
It's policy.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:17:00 -
[276] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote: The people involved have apologised for what, quite frankly, was a simple beginners mistake. If CCP went with your suggestion to hire new, inexperienced forum moderators who haven't the slightest idea of what EVE is or how her community functions, you would likely see a much faster and decidedly more disastrous sequence of events unfold on here. I think that is the main reason why CCP uses volunteers from the community in the first place.
No he hasn't.
From what I've seen, that's exactly what happened. CCP hired volunteers who hadn't the slightest idea of how the community functioned.
And we're not talking about a rookie mistake, though there were several in handling this, we're talking about... I honestly don't know how to classify it. Things were being locked/pruned/edited for which no argument could be made for a rule violation. That's not a rookie mistake, that's an agenda.
Hiring someone gives them a measure of accountability, and gives them the time to dedicate to getting good at it and a certain permanence that lets us think that it's worth working to fix them if they're not great out of the box. Anonymous volunteers have no measure of accountability (to us), have very little to lose if they screw up, have little time to dedicate to getting good at a hard job (given limited time, the impulse is to do things even when the right thing to do is sit down, shut up, and read the forums), and have little sense of permanence. Add to that the bonus point of not having the automatic respect we give to blue tags (because we all know that, whatever hat they're wearing at the moment, ISDs are players first), and you have a recipe for an almost insurmountable learning cliff. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
None ofthe Above
282
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:57:00 -
[277] - Quote
I applaud the relatively open dialog here, but have to say that I would like to see more discussion from CCP and CCL about how things could be improved.
This would be far more effective than "mistakes were made but everything is basically fine". This is a discussion of the future of Community and CCL, yes?
For example, perhaps we could address my suggestions from earlier on in the thread:
None ofthe Above wrote:Kudos on opening up this line of communication. I support in general the goal of increased moderation on EVE-O, even while sometimes being frustrated that good debate seems to be squashed at times. I appreciate the ISD and respect that they volunteer for the love of the game. The work they do particularly in rookie chat is very difficult and I can't imagine trying to keep with that. I've tried on a few occasions to help out when an ISD is not around, its very hard to keep pace and contribute. Forums moderation is definitely another difficult and often thankless task (been there, done that, burnt out). EVE-O signal to noise ratio can be pretty bad, and it has improved since the ISD moderation has started, but its been a bumpy road with some clear problems along the way. So, Thank You ISD. Much appreciated, recent events not withstanding. A couple of observations and suggestions from my perspective:
- This is a difficult job, and not everyone is cut out for it. You do need to be prepared to get someone to stand down and get off the team. Not sure if that's applicable to the last couple of days, but in spite the urge to circle the wagons when one of your own gets in trouble, the option to thank someone for their time and telling them that its not a good fit needs to be on the table.
- I won't be using the word censorship here, as its inappropriate. This is a private forum and CCP has the right to set the rules of the forums. But it also needs to set them in a way that fosters the kind of community it wants. Setting policies are actions, and actions have consequences. Its perfectly reasonable that the community would want to discuss or protest policies and and specific moderations, and get upset if they feel they are prevented from doing so.
- The no discussing moderation rule makes some sense, but causes more difficulties than just about anything else on the forums. Perhaps a moderation discussion forum? All that in one place so discussions (something like this fine thread) can take place but not overwhelm everything else. Clear ability to dispute specific incidents and moderation policy is needed in environments like this.
- Moderation needs to back off at least a little, IMHO, when substantive topics are being discussed. It really sucks to see valid points squashed just because the poster got a little heated. Forums become useless if people can't communicate.
- Threads should probably not be locked because other posters are spamming it and its gone off topic. This opens the door to abuse as people who do not want something discussed can "shiptoast" up the thread and get it locked.
- There are times when a truly offensive post needs to stand. For example, during the last CSM election season several candidates made posts so bad they had to be removed by moderation (not sure that was ISD at that point, but I am sure the issue is bound to come up next year). The problem with this is it essentially white-washed the incident from the voters mind. At least one of said candidates went on to win a seat. Imagine if the news suppressed American presidential candidate Perry's "OOPS" moment as a mistake, or refused to discuss Romney's bullying incident? Lets not let moderation overwhelm important points and information. (While personal attacks against candidates, if not properly substantiated, are probably off limits and rightly moderated.) Alternatively, if it's so bad you can't leave it on the forums, maybe that person should be removed from the ballot.
Anyway, thanks for providing a place to get those thoughts off my mind. Some of these points have been bugging me for a while, but since we can't talk about moderation... haven't been brought up.
Point 5 was later echoed by the esteemed Goon Weasilor here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1542954#post1542954
Please, lets take this opportunity to improve things, not just to cool down and proceed as if nothing had happened.
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:10:00 -
[278] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:
The difference is if you're being paid you have more of a vested interest to do the job right. The fact that this blew up in CCP's face shows they are not monitoring the volunteeers to the degree they claim. If they were this would never have happened. This whole thread is nothing more than CCP doing damage control.
I've been playing this game off and on since it went live and this cycle of not listening to the players, making changes anyway, players rioting over said changes then posting an apology with the promise to listen to players next time is getting really old. Why anyone would take CCP's word at this point is beyond me. It's like someone who keeps going back to an abusive spouse everytime they apologise as if they're not going to get hit again.
I disagree. I think volunteers can be as committed and as vested to do the job right. And employees can be as faulty and as biased as a schoolyard bully.
One thing has nothing to with the other.
I have worked extensively in the non-profit sector, and I can say from experience that is the case.
The problem here was, and to an extent seems to be, two-fold:
1) Volunteers were not properly trained and guided and supervised.
2) The changes were introduced with the finesse of a bull in a china shop, with a "better to apologize than to ask permission" attitude.
Both are squarely CCP's fault. I have also seen this in volunteer situations. The best volunteer programs are those who treat volunteering like a paid job - training, interviews, supervision, structure - and make it clear that volunteering is no different in expectations and process than being a paid employee. The sole difference should be scheduling flexibility, but still, scheduling is required.
And in this thread, interestingly enough, ISDs have been more forthcoming, helpful, apologetic, and seemingly understanding of why this is a situation.
Whereas all a CCP employee did was encourage an obvious troll to launch into a series of increasingly nasty personal attacks, including a threat of physical harm to another poster - based on a purported support for anything CCP does. Because employees are people too, and who doesn't love a bully on one's side?
So we have evidence, right there, that the ISD can work. It didn't, but we have to see if it does. I trust CCP can do right, but they seriously need to increase their competence in the planning and implementation stage: people are not bits of code that you can patch when a new problem arises.
As I have said, the problem here was that there was no rhyme and reason, that some ISD people did seem to have a personal vendetta, and that topics that were obviously within a reasonable interpretation of the rules were locked, but other topics that were outside a reasonable interpretation of the rules were not. The spectacle of half the topics in GD locked at one point was - even if necessary from a "rules" standpoint - was a failure of basic customer service standards.
In other words, the problem was that a lack of transparency led to a lack of trust that led to a lack of communication that lead to this thread.
And hopefully CCP and the ISD can separate the chaff from the wheat in this thread, and realize that while in the game and the metagame its us vs them, in the real life there a thousands of people paying their salaries with millions of hard currency and they deserve, and expect, to be treated with respect.
Lastly, an Icelandic friend told me a good old phrase in Icelandic:
Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar.
The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.
Perhaps we all need to act our age... and as someone pointed out, one of the key differences between this game and other MMOs is that most of us are quite old. We know the rules, and we know the exceptions. CCP should also trust that, and not go for the lowest common denominator.
I mean, even if a player was 18 in 2003, he or she is 26 or 27 today, not old, but not some immature teenager either... Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
660
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:15:00 -
[279] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote: The people involved have apologised for what, quite frankly, was a simple beginners mistake. If CCP went with your suggestion to hire new, inexperienced forum moderators who haven't the slightest idea of what EVE is or how her community functions, you would likely see a much faster and decidedly more disastrous sequence of events unfold on here. I think that is the main reason why CCP uses volunteers from the community in the first place.
No he hasn't. From what I've seen, that's exactly what happened. CCP hired volunteers who hadn't the slightest idea of how the community functioned. And we're not talking about a rookie mistake, though there were several in handling this, we're talking about... I honestly don't know how to classify it. Things were being locked/pruned/ edited for which no argument could be made for a rule violation. That's not a rookie mistake, that's an agenda. Hiring someone gives them a measure of accountability, and gives them the time to dedicate to getting good at it and a certain permanence that lets us think that it's worth working to fix them if they're not great out of the box. Anonymous volunteers have no measure of accountability (to us), have very little to lose if they screw up, have little time to dedicate to getting good at a hard job (given limited time, the impulse is to do things even when the right thing to do is sit down, shut up, and read the forums), and have little sense of permanence. Add to that the bonus point of not having the automatic respect we give to blue tags (because we all know that, whatever hat they're wearing at the moment, ISDs are players first), and you have a recipe for an almost insurmountable learning cliff.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:04:00 -
[280] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote: Ok, I shall take my time with this reply, so I don't miss anything. Please bare in mind that these are just my personal opinions based on available facts and my own view of what I have seen occurring, and in no way am I saying that you are not entitled to your own opinion.
First up is your assertion that the ISD somehow have an agenda. The mistakes that were made would likely as not have been worse had the new moderators been from outside of the EVE community, which is precisely why these ones ARE part of the community. Though I can understand why you and others would be upset at certain actions that have been taken, in my honest opinion the only people displaying an agenda are those of you evading your bans, posting on alts, and continuing to attack those you perceive to have "slighted" you.
Where have I attacked the ISD team since the riot's ended? Pointing out failures in an attempt to help a program improve is not an attack.
I never claimed to know what the agenda was, and it could be as simple as "make the forums cuddly-uddly," just that a pattern of capricious locks/snips/edits over time cannot be classified as a "rookie mistake," and when you cross off mistake, you get intention, and that means an agenda.
I'm perfectly fine having the character banned from the forums, it was worth it. But claiming that alt posting is evil isn't going to get you anywhere. At this point, now that we've brought the issue to CCP's attention (in the only way that's been shown to work in the past; loudly), it's time to help fix it.
Quote: As for accountability, again I can understand the need for this in any community. However you appear to be operating under the mistaken assumption that just because the volunteers are not paid, that they are somehow not "employed" and not dedicated, this is just your opinion and should not be touted as fact. The ISD are held to account by CCP, who are after all their employers, and as such there is no need nor reason for them to be accountable in the same sense to the player base.
Now, when it comes to the mistakes that have been made, as I pointed out earlier, it was somewhat inevitable given that these people are new to their jobs. They need time to adjust to this new situation, and in return they need the community to be patient and understanding. We all have to work together, not just expect people to be "awesome" straight away. The only real way to ensure that the new staff integrate fully is if we ALL work together and look after each other, and a little less of the self entitled attitude would go a long way.
Accountability includes not just the possibility of loss, but the magnitude of that loss. I don't know the psychological makeup of the ISDs, nor do I know how much they invest into their identity as a volunteer for a for-profit company. The magnitude of loss to a volunteer in this case is impossible to suss out. The magnitude of loss to a paid employee is pretty easy to figure out (everyone cares when they get fired).
The "mistakes" that were made, were not "rookie mistakes" they were things that nobody who's properly trained and supervised should have done. I get "rough around the edges," I get "new," but that's not what happened. This was unacceptable behavior and it lasted for weeks. If it had been a day or so, and been corrected, that would have been fine. That would have shown that the ISDs were properly supervised. But they weren't.
I don't expect awesome right away. I do expect improvement over the course of weeks, and I do expect that deterioration should be corrected very quickly. Neither of those expectations were met.
Quote: Now for the last part of your post. The idea that the ISD staff, who have been hand picked and vetted by CCP themselves for this precise task, are somehow worthy of less respect than "Blue Tags" simply because they are also players. It might serve you well to remember that a great deal of the "Blue Tags" whom you respect also started as players, and some in fact were also volunteers, hopefully that may alter your perception of things a little.
When all is said and done, having more people on board will be a great help and a boon to the EVE family. We all just need to sit back and think before we say something that we may end up regretting.
I've never been through the ISD vetting process. I don't think you have either (if you have, you should be using your ISD acct for this discussion). But being a forum moderator is a position of power, and ISDs don't have to give up their IG social networks to get to that position like CCP Devs do.
Their training is another issue. I think it's pretty clear though that they have significantly less training and oversight than the CCP tagged Community Coordinators that once moderated the forums had.
Who says I regret anything I said the other day? We got a conversation started that I would bet money wouldn't have happened otherwise, and the conversation's been reasonably productive, and looks to be staying that way.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that all of the locks/snips/edits that precipitated this event were valid. The (per strict reading of the rules) valid locks we disliked because they weren't in the spirit of the forums, but that's not what sparked this off. The thing that sparked this off (at least for me) was the fact that even the mildest rebuke of CCP as a company was being tossed out. That's not pruning personal attacks, that's whitewashing. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:21:00 -
[281] - Quote
They could apologize by unbanning my main. =\
"Could I request that ISD please lock my shirt into my trousers?" --áLilliana Stelles 2012.06.25 Never forget. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3242
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:24:00 -
[282] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that all of the locks/snips/edits that precipitated this event were valid. The (per strict reading of the rules) valid locks we disliked because they weren't in the spirit of the forums, but that's not what sparked this off. The thing that sparked this off (at least for me) was the fact that even the mildest rebuke of CCP as a company was being tossed out. That's not pruning personal attacks, that's whitewashing.
Sorry, the spirit of the forums? You mean your interpretation of what the forums should be.
Quote:Forum RulesThe EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community. In order to maintain order and a sense of community, all users should read and follow these conditions. By participating in the forum, users are affirming their willingness to comply with these terms. This memorandum has been created to provide you with information about what you can expect here, what is expected of you, and to answer some questions you may have in your use of the EVE Online forums.
It's about time CCP enforced the Forum Rules and as for the application or 'strict reading' of the rules, good. For way too long people have blatantly abused those rules and have grown accustomed to creating a hostile environment. If the constant locks/snips/edits is happening, that means people are in non compliance and need to seriously change their posting habits.
If people think a business company will allow others within it's company to sabotage their ability to operate, then they need to research common business ethics. If those people want to spread bad publicity about the company or encourage other people to leave, they can do it in another venue not controlled or provided by the company.
If people have a legitimate issue or problem pertaining to the game, they need to post it in the feedback/issue threads, file a bug report and petition in-game. If it's about moderation, they need to contact customer service / internal affairs.
What I see happening here is a bunch of players are mad now because they have to abide by the rules. If they don't like those rules, they don't have to post in the Forums. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:27:00 -
[283] - Quote
So clearly what we need is for CCP to tell us they are moving away from the old to a more strict white washed forums. If thats what they want then that is fine. Clearly both sides have their supports. But CCP you need to tell us what you want out of the forums. That way if you do want the white wash those of us who have called this place home because of the openness of this place can stop wasting our time fighting for something you dont want.
8 years of posting with the main that was banned when this boiled over. Never once did I have any doubts about this place being a very open and welcoming place. Where newbs and veterans alike got to ask dumb questions, get made fun of a little, then given an answer. Its been home to some amazing things over the years that would never have gotten a start without the openness and interaction with the developers.
So again. Clearly this is a divided forum and thats no fun.
"Could I request that ISD please lock my shirt into my trousers?" --áLilliana Stelles 2012.06.25 Never forget. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:37:00 -
[284] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that all of the locks/snips/edits that precipitated this event were valid. The (per strict reading of the rules) valid locks we disliked because they weren't in the spirit of the forums, but that's not what sparked this off. The thing that sparked this off (at least for me) was the fact that even the mildest rebuke of CCP as a company was being tossed out. That's not pruning personal attacks, that's whitewashing.
Sorry, the spirit of the forums? You mean your interpretation of what the forums should be.
Read what you quoted please. I'll bold it for you.
This means the Locks/Snips/Edits that where in no way justifiable under the forum rules.
Oh, and CCP has a long history of being fine with Hostility.
Kristoffer Touborg/CCP Soundwave wrote:I was about to say GÇ£HereGÇÖs a RubikGÇÖs cube, go f%$^ yourself,GÇ¥ because thatGÇÖs what we do with EVE Online. http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/25/eve-online-devs-on-dayz-elder-scrolls-online-and-whatd-make-them-quit-the-games-industry/
CCP Wrangler wrote:EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3242
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:38:00 -
[285] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Whereas all a CCP employee did was encourage an obvious troll to launch into a series of increasingly nasty personal attacks, including a threat of physical harm to another poster - based on a purported support for anything CCP does. Because employees are people too, and who doesn't love a bully on one's side?
So we have evidence, right there, that the ISD can work. It didn't, but we have to see if it does. I trust CCP can do right, but they seriously need to increase their competence in the planning and implementation stage: people are not bits of code that you can patch when a new problem arises.
As I have said, the problem here was that there was no rhyme and reason, that some ISD people did seem to have a personal vendetta, and that topics that were obviously within a reasonable interpretation of the rules were locked, but other topics that were outside a reasonable interpretation of the rules were not. The spectacle of half the topics in GD locked at one point was - even if necessary from a "rules" standpoint - was a failure of basic customer service standards.
In other words, the problem was that a lack of transparency led to a lack of trust that led to a lack of communication that lead to this thread.
Again you post unsubstantiated rumors and untrue personal opinion as factual truth, constantly trying to incite rage. Obviously you won't stop and neither will I. Guess the only way now to deal with your constant insinuations and personal attacks is to use the appropriate tools available. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3242
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:42:00 -
[286] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that all of the locks/snips/edits that precipitated this event were valid. The (per strict reading of the rules) valid locks we disliked because they weren't in the spirit of the forums, but that's not what sparked this off. The thing that sparked this off (at least for me) was the fact that even the mildest rebuke of CCP as a company was being tossed out. That's not pruning personal attacks, that's whitewashing.
Sorry, the spirit of the forums? You mean your interpretation of what the forums should be. Read what you quoted please. I'll bold it for you. This means the Locks/Snips/Edits that where in no way justifiable under the forum rules. Try reading the rest of my reply.
If people think a business company will allow others within it's company to sabotage their ability to operate, then they need to research common business ethics. If those people want to spread bad publicity about the company or encourage other people to leave, they can do it in another venue not controlled or provided by the company.
If people have a legitimate issue or problem pertaining to the game, they need to post it in the feedback/issue threads, file a bug report and petition in-game. If it's about moderation, they need to contact customer service / internal affairs. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:52:00 -
[287] - Quote
Jason Auralis wrote:So clearly what we need is for CCP to tell us they are moving away from the old to a more strict white washed forums. If thats what they want then that is fine. Clearly both sides have their supports. But CCP you need to tell us what you want out of the forums. That way if you do want the white wash those of us who have called this place home because of the openness of this place can stop wasting our time fighting for something you dont want.
8 years of posting with the main that was banned when this boiled over. Never once did I have any doubts about this place being a very open and welcoming place. Where newbs and veterans alike got to ask dumb questions, get made fun of a little, then given an answer. Its been home to some amazing things over the years that would never have gotten a start without the openness and interaction with the developers.
So again. Clearly this is a divided forum and thats no fun.
This is what tends to happen with relaxed moderation from a trusted source. A friendly community that acts the way friends do (I may be an extreme example, but most of my friends and I act a lot like we hate each other).
I will say that I agree that there has been a disturbing trend of real nastiness coming to the forums with comparisons to nasty RL people. The answer to that is to go after those posts directly, not to try to quash everything that's not 100% cuddly-uddly. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 04:07:00 -
[288] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that all of the locks/snips/edits that precipitated this event were valid. The (per strict reading of the rules) valid locks we disliked because they weren't in the spirit of the forums, but that's not what sparked this off. The thing that sparked this off (at least for me) was the fact that even the mildest rebuke of CCP as a company was being tossed out. That's not pruning personal attacks, that's whitewashing.
Sorry, the spirit of the forums? You mean your interpretation of what the forums should be. Read what you quoted please. I'll bold it for you. This means the Locks/Snips/Edits that where in no way justifiable under the forum rules. Try reading the rest of my reply. If people think a business company will allow others within it's company to sabotage their ability to operate, then they need to research common business ethics. If those people want to spread bad publicity about the company or encourage other people to leave, they can do it in another venue not controlled or provided by the company. If people have a legitimate issue or problem pertaining to the game, they need to post it in the feedback/issue threads, file a bug report and petition in-game. If it's about moderation, they need to contact customer service / internal affairs.
Whitewashing attempts do a great job protecting the business's interests now?
As for encouraging people to leave, CCP doesn't want the people who don't like the fundamentals of EvE to stay either.
Kristoffer Touborg/CCP Soundwave wrote:It isnGÇÖt really hard, but I think there are customers that you can lose in a good way and thereGÇÖs customers that you can lose in a bad way. If people come in and fundamentally donGÇÖt like EVE Online, then I think that might be a good way of losing customers. EVE isnGÇÖt for everyone. I wish it was, but the reality is that there are some people who just enjoy playing another game more. And thatGÇÖs not really that bad. http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/27/eve-devs-our-game-is-the-mmo-equivalent-of-running-inferno-solo-with-a-naked-barbarian/
If CCP wants a vibrant community they can have it, but they can't prevent dissent from spreading in the community at the same time. You can have a vibrant community or one that's always positive about the company that it's centered around*.
As for business ethics, CCP is privately owned. Unless the forums are significantly stunting EvE's growth, I don't think the investors much care about publicity on the forums.
*Being literally perfect and keeping everyone happy all the time is, of course, an exception. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
black cree
Utopian Research I.E.L.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 09:03:00 -
[289] - Quote
GD was 0.0 anarchy , now in transition to becoming lowsec.
ccl are gate guns, they need some tuning. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 09:11:00 -
[290] - Quote
Is this thread being stealth deleted. I posted in response to another, which now seems to have disappeared ?
Bad show?
Tal
|
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
197
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 15:26:00 -
[291] - Quote
1 on 1 : PVP at it's finest Jumping in a 1 on 1 to help a corpmate: Still pvp, enemy should have planed better Blobbing: PVP in large numbers Ganking: PVP an unsuspecting target Market Scams: PVP while docked AFK Cloaking: PVP while I sleep Forum Wars: PVP while I'm at work If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1848
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 15:44:00 -
[292] - Quote
This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
None ofthe Above
284
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 15:56:00 -
[293] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic.
Again, we need a discussion on how to change policy to improve for the future.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432
Mea culpas are all very heartfelt and appreciated but without policy changes we are fated to come right back here again.
Lets have some straight talk on this subject. Sorry to say but it appears that CCP and CCL aren't interested in having a frank discussion on this. Apologize and act as if it never happened? Sorry but that's uncool.
|
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1848
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 16:19:00 -
[294] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic. Again, we need a discussion on how to change policy to improve for the future. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432Mea culpas are all very heartfelt and appreciated but without policy changes we are fated to come right back here again. Lets have some straight talk on this subject. Sorry to say but it appears that CCP and CCL aren't interested in having a frank discussion on this. Apologize and act as if it never happened? Sorry but that's uncool. I think the problem on the post I linked was a failure to understand the intent. He/she didn't "read between the lines." Stating that I have to pee seems non sequitur, but the implication of the post was that I'm in dangerous space and need to step away, so I cloak up to take a few minutes' break. As that would technically be "AFK cloaking", according to the OP I would be botting.
I suspect much of the excessive editing going on is due to a lack of comprehension. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
None ofthe Above
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 17:34:00 -
[295] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic. Again, we need a discussion on how to change policy to improve for the future. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432Mea culpas are all very heartfelt and appreciated but without policy changes we are fated to come right back here again. Lets have some straight talk on this subject. Sorry to say but it appears that CCP and CCL aren't interested in having a frank discussion on this. Apologize and act as if it never happened? Sorry but that's uncool. I think the problem on the post I linked was a failure to understand the intent. He/she didn't "read between the lines." Stating that I have to pee seems non sequitur, but the implication of the post was that I'm in dangerous space and need to step away, so I cloak up to take a few minutes' break. As that would technically be "AFK cloaking", according to the OP I would be botting. I suspect much of the excessive editing going on is due to a lack of comprehension.
Possibly. I was sticking you under point 4 of what is rapidly becoming my "reform CCL manifesto":
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432
Quote: 4, Moderation needs to back off at least a little, IMHO, when substantive topics are being discussed. It really sucks to see valid points squashed just because the poster got a little heated. Forums become useless if people can't communicate.
In either case, the defaults and policies need to be reset. While moderation can be a boon, over zealous moderation squelches valid communication. I don't think "I don't understand how this adds to the topic" is a valid reason to moderate. If it clearly detracts substantially from the thread's topic, well then maybe it deserves moderation.
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 18:09:00 -
[296] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic.
Precisely.
And some here are more keen on repeatedly raising abusive points against others in this forum without bothering (Apparently) to read what is being said.
The bottom line:
1) Rules - excellent!
2) Forum mods - acceptable!
3) Implementation - less than stellar...
For me examples like that are huge, and then there was the incident in which all the topics opened by one player were locked by the same ISD repeatedly.
There needs to be rules for the rulemakers. Common sense things like, when in doubt, ask another mod. Or do not lock more than 1 topic from the same toon in X amount of time, ask another ISD instead. And so on.
Perception is a powerful thing. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 20:49:00 -
[297] - Quote
"It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums."
Don't confuse an extremely loud minority of forum warriors and meta gamers with the players of this game. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
664
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 21:07:00 -
[298] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic. Precisely. And some here are more keen on repeatedly raising abusive points against others in this forum without bothering (Apparently) to read what is being said. The bottom line: 1) Rules - excellent! 2) Forum mods - acceptable! 3) Implementation - less than stellar... For me examples like that are huge, and then there was the incident in which all the topics opened by one player were locked by the same ISD repeatedly. There needs to be rules for the rulemakers. Common sense things like, when in doubt, ask another mod. Or do not lock more than 1 topic from the same toon in X amount of time, ask another ISD instead. And so on. Perception is a powerful thing.
Perhaps then we should move on a little, stop incessantly rehashing who did what and why, and move on to find solutions. Otherwise we are going to be caught in this loop of "He started it...No he started it" and that's no good for any of us. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 21:28:00 -
[299] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Perhaps then we should move on a little, stop incessantly rehashing who did what and why, and move on to find solutions. Otherwise we are going to be caught in this loop of "He started it...No he started it" and that's no good for any of us.
Oh you mean something like this:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote: There needs to be rules for the rulemakers. Common sense things like, when in doubt, ask another mod. Or do not lock more than 1 topic from the same toon in X amount of time, ask another ISD instead. And so on.
Perception is a powerful thing.
Please read what is being said, and not only what you want to read is being said.
Of course, if you go further up, you will see more concrete proposals and solutions - and support for other's proposals and solutions. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
664
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 21:40:00 -
[300] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Perhaps then we should move on a little, stop incessantly rehashing who did what and why, and move on to find solutions. Otherwise we are going to be caught in this loop of "He started it...No he started it" and that's no good for any of us.
Oh you mean something like this: Crunchie Attuxors wrote: There needs to be rules for the rulemakers. Common sense things like, when in doubt, ask another mod. Or do not lock more than 1 topic from the same toon in X amount of time, ask another ISD instead. And so on.
Perception is a powerful thing.
Please read what is being said, and not only what you want to read is being said. Of course, if you go further up, you will see more concrete proposals and solutions - and support for other's proposals and solutions.
My post was not an attack on you Crunchie, so I apologise if it seemed I was doing so. I did read what you wrote, and I should have made it clearer that I was agreeing with you. It is just a shame that other people are so willing to hold back proper discussion. Now all that needs to be done is to stop talking about making those rules and actually start drawing up some
EDIT: Not an excuse, but I'm just feeling rather tired, hence my lack of clarity in my previous post. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 22:29:00 -
[301] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:My post was not an attack on you Crunchie, so I apologise if it seemed I was doing so. I did read what you wrote, and I should have made it clearer that I was agreeing with you. It is just a shame that other people are so willing to hold back proper discussion. Now all that needs to be done is to stop talking about making those rules and actually start drawing up some EDIT: Not an excuse, but I'm just feeling rather tired, hence my lack of clarity in my previous post.
Ok, I am sorry for being curt, but I am indeed interested on this become a better forum, and are a bit tired of people not reading and just metagaming... Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
665
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 22:37:00 -
[302] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:My post was not an attack on you Crunchie, so I apologise if it seemed I was doing so. I did read what you wrote, and I should have made it clearer that I was agreeing with you. It is just a shame that other people are so willing to hold back proper discussion. Now all that needs to be done is to stop talking about making those rules and actually start drawing up some EDIT: Not an excuse, but I'm just feeling rather tired, hence my lack of clarity in my previous post. Ok, I am sorry for being curt, but I am indeed interested on this become a better forum, and are a bit tired of people not reading and just metagaming...
I happily accept your apology, even though you didn't really need to And we definitely agree on what needs to happen, now lets hope other people get on board. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 22:51:00 -
[303] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:My post was not an attack on you Crunchie, so I apologise if it seemed I was doing so. I did read what you wrote, and I should have made it clearer that I was agreeing with you. It is just a shame that other people are so willing to hold back proper discussion. Now all that needs to be done is to stop talking about making those rules and actually start drawing up some EDIT: Not an excuse, but I'm just feeling rather tired, hence my lack of clarity in my previous post. Ok, I am sorry for being curt, but I am indeed interested on this become a better forum, and are a bit tired of people not reading and just metagaming... I happily accept your apology, even though you didn't really need to And we definitely agree on what needs to happen, now lets hope other people get on board.
Ahhhh true love ...
Tal
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
334
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 06:20:00 -
[304] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic.
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I think the problem on the post I linked was a failure to understand the intent. He/she didn't "read between the lines." Stating that I have to pee seems non sequitur, but the implication of the post was that I'm in dangerous space and need to step away, so I cloak up to take a few minutes' break. As that would technically be "AFK cloaking", according to the OP I would be botting.
I suspect much of the excessive editing going on is due to a lack of comprehension. I think you are bang on mate.
Language can be subtle and detail is important.
Things like this happen. People are only human, but there's a lot of humanity going on the in forums of late.
Graic Gabtar was forum banned based on a similar lack of comprehension on a moderator's behalf. The ban was lifted and CCP sent me an apology I was happy to get. However, that didn't happen until two weeks of back and forth emails including the "petition" being escalated.
I could have simply given up and voted with my wallet as others have stated. A forum is just a forum, but to some it's an extension of the game.
I don't know why they just don't have forum channels you can only see via the IGB and unless your post contains content that is illegal it's just left be. Thus it would be a proper extension of the game in forum form. And there are already separate rules for the different forums, so it wouldn't be ground breaking in that regard.
They already have unmoderated corporation forums so it could be a logical extension of that. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3266
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 11:54:00 -
[305] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic. I think the problem on the post I linked was a failure to understand the intent. He/she didn't "read between the lines." Stating that I have to pee seems non sequitur, but the implication of the post was that I'm in dangerous space and need to step away, so I cloak up to take a few minutes' break. As that would technically be "AFK cloaking", according to the OP I would be botting. I suspect much of the excessive editing going on is due to a lack of comprehension. http://eve-search.com/thread/126324-1/page/3#70
Quote:Posted - 2012.06.27 14:33:00 - [70] - brb guys, I gotta go pee
*banned for botting*
Nobody is a mind reader and that definitely looks like it's off-topic to me. It actually looks like a fail attempt to be funny and derail the thread. "Read Between The Lines"? "Lack Of Comprehension"? Maybe if you had clarified your statement like you're doing now, then the intent would have been clear and it wouldn't have been removed.
I see no wrong doing from the CCL in that yet you're trying to turn it into a Federal Case. Looking at Eve Search definitely paints a different story from what's being presented here in this thread by the same 4 people on a war path looking to scalp someone.
|
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3267
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 13:00:00 -
[306] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:Again, we need a discussion on how to change policy to improve for the future. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432Mea culpas are all very heartfelt and appreciated but without policy changes we are fated to come right back here again. Lets have some straight talk on this subject. Sorry to say but it appears that CCP and CCL aren't interested in having a frank discussion on this. Apologize and act as if it never happened? Sorry but that's uncool. What's uncool is all the demands and accusations being made in this thread by the same 4 people with blood-lust in their eyes. What I see here is players trying to control and dictate how moderation should be conducted. The rules have already been established which everybody needs to abide by.
As for your list :
1 - This is a difficult job, and not everyone is cut out for it. You do need to be prepared to get someone to stand down and get off the team. Not sure if that's applicable to the last couple of days, but in spite the urge to circle the wagons when one of your own gets in trouble, the option to thank someone for their time and telling them that its not a good fit needs to be on the table.
Sorry, this is just wrong and counter-productive. This looks like you're asking for a scapegoat to hang. All people make mistakes in all professions. The point is to allow them to learn from it and progress. That's like saying if you do one wrong thing at work, you should be fired.
2 - I won't be using the word censorship here, as its inappropriate. This is a private forum and CCP has the right to set the rules of the forums. But it also needs to set them in a way that fosters the kind of community it wants. Setting policies are actions, and actions have consequences. Its perfectly reasonable that the community would want to discuss or protest policies and and specific moderations, and get upset if they feel they are prevented from doing so.
The rules and policies have already been established. If the community has an issue with it they can voice their opinion and protest it in the correct venue, such as file a petition with Customer Service and or contact Internal Affairs.
3 - The no discussing moderation rule makes some sense, but causes more difficulties than just about anything else on the forums. Perhaps a moderation discussion forum? All that in one place so discussions (something like this fine thread) can take place but not overwhelm everything else. Clear ability to dispute specific incidents and moderation policy is needed in environments like this.
Again this is another bad idea. Basically this can be easily exploited by players trying to gain control and dictate how moderation should be conducted as well as openly crucify moderators. That is not our place to decide that. CCP set's the rules and policies. This is their house. Again as in the previous point, if the community has a problem or issue, they need to voice it in the correct venue, Customer Service and Internal Affairs.
4 - Moderation needs to back off at least a little, IMHO, when substantive topics are being discussed. It really sucks to see valid points squashed just because the poster got a little heated. Forums become useless if people can't communicate.
No, the community needs to follow the policies as set forth in the Forum Rules. If Moderation backs off, the forums will just go back to how it was before. Too many times a topic has quickly derailed into a massive flame war due to posters becoming a little heated. There's a big difference between constructive communication and verbal assault. Where there's smoke, there's a fire and as such, it needs to be put out asap.
5 - Threads should probably not be locked because other posters are spamming it and its gone off topic. This opens the door to abuse as people who do not want something discussed can "shiptoast" up the thread and get it locked.
This I agree with, those replies should be removed and the thread put back on track. The offending character should be warned via Eve mail along with account Email address. If they continue after being warned, they should be banned. A good rule for that is the 3 strike count. However, if the thread continues to derail, it should be locked. Again the 3 strike rule could apply. If it's in the wrong sub forum, it needs to be moved. Also if the thread is non conforming to forum rules, it needs to be deleted.
6 - There are times when a truly offensive post needs to stand. For example, during the last CSM election season several candidates made posts so bad they had to be removed by moderation (not sure that was ISD at that point, but I am sure the issue is bound to come up next year). The problem with this is it essentially white-washed the incident from the voters mind. At least one of said candidates went on to win a seat. Imagine if the news suppressed American presidential candidate Perry's "OOPS" moment as a mistake, or refused to discuss Romney's bullying incident? Lets not let moderation overwhelm important points and information. (While personal attacks against candidates, if not properly substantiated, are probably off limits and rightly moderated.) Alternatively, if it's so bad you can't leave it on the forums, maybe that person should be removed from the ballot.
There's a very fine line here. Letting an offensive post stand only breeds discontent and rage. There was an excessive amount of trolling happening in candidates threads trying to derail them right and left. A lot of mud slinging going on as well as posting off topic replies intended to berate, demean and incite rage. All of which is against the forum rules. If there is factual truth to counter their candidacy platform, it should be presented in a civil manner as per forum rules.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
947
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 14:50:00 -
[307] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic. I think the problem on the post I linked was a failure to understand the intent. He/she didn't "read between the lines." Stating that I have to pee seems non sequitur, but the implication of the post was that I'm in dangerous space and need to step away, so I cloak up to take a few minutes' break. As that would technically be "AFK cloaking", according to the OP I would be botting. I suspect much of the excessive editing going on is due to a lack of comprehension. http://eve-search.com/thread/126324-1/page/3#70Quote:Posted - 2012.06.27 14:33:00 - [70] - brb guys, I gotta go pee
*banned for botting* Nobody is a mind reader and that definitely looks like it's off-topic to me. It actually looks like a fail attempt to be funny and derail the thread. "Read Between The Lines"? "Lack Of Comprehension"? Maybe if you had clarified your statement like you're doing now, then the intent would have been clear and it wouldn't have been removed. I see no wrong doing from the CCL in that yet you're trying to turn it into a Federal Case. Looking at Eve Search definitely paints a different story from what's being presented here in this thread by the same 4 people on a war path looking to scalp someone. No one here is on a war path. We are trying to get this matter fixed to everyone's liking (not an easy thing since everyone wants something different). I personally want better communication between the ISDs and us lowly folk. Death to one-liners!!
Also, anyone with an understanding of the English language should be able to put 2 and 2 together. The thread was about AFKing being botting. The joke was very on topic, and very clear even to myself, and I have Asperger's.
I myself have no problem with moderation. I'm a moderator on another forum, though with only 700 users it is much easier there. However there comes a time when things get out of hand. And unfortunately, the continuing recommendation of filing a petition does not seem to work most of the time. Since the Incarna incident (maybe before but I wasn't paying much attention in my early EVE years) CCP has reinforced the idea in our (the community) mind that the only way to get things done is with a storm of insanity.
|
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
181
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 14:54:00 -
[308] - Quote
After reading through this sassy lil Cutter & DMC vs. the banned alts saga, I just don't agree DMC.
Sure this is CCP's house but we're not just along for some ride. We are the ride. People don't have blood-lust because they think others should be held accountable for their mistakes, especially if it were proven to be intentional provocation. I mean, I just read:
"That's like saying if you do one wrong thing at work, you should be fired."
Well it depends on what the wrong thing was. But yes, people get fired from jobs for doing one thing wrong all the time.
For example: when I was in college, I walked into my manager's offfice at a Subway restaurant near campus and discovered her riding one of my co-workers around the room in an office chair. The next day, I was told I wasn't "Subway material." So you see, yes, that one mistake was all it took for me to have to honestly admit being told that.
There is no power more absolute in a forum than the power to determine content value. That determination shouldn't ever be made lightly so it is little wonder chaos ensued from the frequency of its casual application.
What troubles me about this situation is that the differences between the sides appear irreconcilable. For the forum to function as CCP apparently envisions it on paper, the level of moderation seen thus far would have to be at minimum maintained or increased, (they're adding 6 members) threads locked, posts deleted, topics relocated, on and on and on... there would be no end to that.
But that vision is sure pretty square compared to the culture that exists here now. EvE breeds rebels. It's a game of cutthroat consequences and of being more clever than the next guy. Being clever in the forums can be entertaining. It's relative. But good luck with gagging the rebels. What's next? Bagging cats?
I can appreciate CCPs desire for intelligent persons to discuss things intelligently and I know this game has serious brainpower. So an argument could be made that supporting forum moderation is also supporting increased efficiency in our think tank.
But I also think its important for the CCLs to remember that they aren't here to build perfect forums. They are COMMUNITY communication liasons, implying that they are here to build bridges between players and CCP.
If by their own actions, they undermine the trust of the community, they fail.
Yonis Kador "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:13:00 -
[309] - Quote
I try a short summary of the discussion.
CCL failed at the start because ...
1.Didn't annouce the changes in forum rules 2. Started the discussion about the changes after the changes had already started
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I also recognize and accept the the ISD moderation is both for the improvement of the community and in any case, a fait acompli.
However, there were not "mistakes" made.
So for example, instead of dumping new rules, and an obviously unprepared ISD team on us with full powers a better way would have been to put the rules and have a period of education in which they wouldn't be enforced except in harsh/obvious cases (And of course, the old rules would be enforced normally), but instead they got a feel for the forums, the regulars, the trolls, the lines of demarcation, the coming and goings, you know, SITUATIONAL AWARNESS, and then after a few months, when the community already comfortable with the constant presence, then unleash the fury of the banhammer.
We had some arguments about formal issues.....
1. How to snip posts and when 2. When to close threads 3. How to communicate with the CLL team 4. Should eve players accept voluntier forum moderators ?
We learned something from Eve players who themself moderate forums or use other forums then eve offical forum
1. Malcom Vincent told us how forum software monitors verbal abuses. 2. I learned something from Vera Algert about the reasons why other eve forums exits and what offical WOW forum did wrong.
Vera Algaert wrote:
Bad forum moderation is what drives people to 3rd party sites and by doing so threatens to fracture the eve community. I think the most impressive negative example of such developments are the Blizzard' battle.net forums.
If I am interested in SC2 I go to teamliquid.net. If I am generally interested in WoW I go to mmo-champion.com. If I am interested in WoW PvE & theorycrafting I go elitistjerks.com. If I am interested in WoW PvP I go to arenajunkies.com. If I want to recruit for my WoW guild I go to tankspot.com, elitistjerks.com and mmo-champion.com. If I am interested in Diablo 3 I go to mmo-champion.com or diablofans.com.
Left on the battle.net forums are only the newbies and a couple of MVPs who desperately try to keep the forums alive.
(Also notice how one company [Curse] operates three of the sites I just mentioned .)
Now, luckily EVE is not in that state just yet - a lot of the relevant eve-related discussion still happens on eve-o itself. I attribute this (partial) success mostly to the flexibility with which the forum moderators have handled the enforcement of forum rules in the different subforums in the past, accomodating the individual "style" of each one. Sadly the new ISD moderators seem to lack this crucial sensitivity.
And, as the German/Russian language communities show, once you lost one subcommunity to a 3rd party site it won't come back even if you have fixed the issue that caused them to leave.
Some guys want "forum wars" (with some extent of abusive language)
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Seriouspost: This is a very good question for The Mittani. He literally makes this sort of thing his business (not calling people stupid, mind you, although he is very good at that, which is arguably mostly how he came to leading Goonswarm). That is to say, he spends his time winning the metagame. While the metagame* involves other things like outing spies and planting our own, often enough it comes down to persuading or beating down members of opposing alliances over public forums--the only place where both sides can see what the other has to say without being able to silence each other. There is a reason Goonswarm takes its posting seriously.**
Beating people in this game does not rely solely on blowing up their ships. It means getting them to not log in when they need to defend their stuff, or getting them to play other games because that's more fun than the thought of losing, or making them realize their leadership is utterly incompetent and corrupt and that they, the average Joe Poster, are being used and tossed aside by their supposed friends, or that their friends are idiots and Joe Poster should find a new home. Goodposters aim to destroy an enemy's morale through words. Making someone appear stupid to others or making them feel as though they have done something stupid is incredibly handy in accomplishing this.
So yes, being able to call people stupid is very important.
Some people dont want changes at all
Holy One wrote: Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought .
Censorship = suppression.
Velicia made a prediction how this thread gonna evolve....
Velicia Tuoro wrote:Nice OP CCP Navigator. I think it's great that CCP are experimenting with this. The key to its success so far has been clear rules and an open dialog between the moderators and the moderation decisions being made.
One of the struggles this forum has is the sheer number of people who seem to simply enjoy trolling and just generally being argumentative. I sympathise with how difficult it must be to make the right decisions in these situations. You can't really win as you are going to upset someone now matter what you do, and having a policy of dialog around those decisions would be unworkable based on the volume. I watch with interest as to how you tackle it!
|
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:14:00 -
[310] - Quote
I also like this statement..
Tony Two Bullet wrote:Your first objective is to identify that all people are different in this forum.
Yes, we all play EVE and are EVE players but we're all very different, and being a subscriber does not set us to the same cultural standards.
That doesn't excuse inappropriate behavior, but a "ONE RULE TO BIND THEM ALL" is NOT going to work. |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
668
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:15:00 -
[311] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:After reading through this sassy lil Cutter & DMC vs. the banned alts saga, I just don't agree DMC.
Sure this is CCP's house but we're not just along for some ride. We are the ride. I am sorry to say but you are incorrect. We are not the ride, the game is, and we pay to ride it. We only have as much control and access as CCP see's fit to give to us, people seem to have forgotten that very salient fact, and because of that have started to develop delusions of grandeur.
Yonis Kador wrote: There is no power more absolute in a forum than the power to determine content value. That determination shouldn't ever be made lightly so it is little wonder chaos ensued from the frequency of its casual application.
This is a moot point to be honest, as CCP and the ISD have already clearly stated here and in numerous other places that more training will be given to ensure that the CCL will find their feet quicker and perform better.
Yonis Kador wrote: What troubles me about this situation is that the differences between the sides appear irreconcilable. For the forum to function as CCP apparently envisions it on paper, the level of moderation seen thus far would have to be at minimum maintained or increased, (they're adding 6 members) threads locked, posts deleted, topics relocated, on and on and on... there would be no end to that.
As I and many others have noticed and noted, there has been an ever increasing number of people coming here whose sole aim appears to be to sow the seeds of discontent, not only amongst different player groups, but between the players and CCP. I see nothing wrong with weeding out those "bad apples" and bringing some semblance of order to the proceedings. If adding 6 new moderators is what it takes (and clearly CCP feels it is) to achieve this balance, then so be it.
Yonis Kador wrote: But that vision is sure pretty square compared to the culture that exists here now. EvE breeds rebels. It's a game of cutthroat consequences and of being more clever than the next guy. Being clever in the forums can be entertaining. It's relative. But good luck with gagging the rebels. What's next? Bagging cats?
The culture that exists is not an awful lot different to the one that has always existed here, the only difference being the recent upsurge in a vocal minority who think that because they pay CCP to play EVE, gives them the automatic right to berate, belittle and attack anyone they deem unworthy.
This is why I mentioned delusions of grandeur earlier. Part of the blame for that lies with CCP, as they have already admitted, but the rest lies with the perpetrators. Now CCP can do one of two things, they can allow this vocal minority to roam freely, abusing everyone and everything in sight because they "want to" or because "its part of the game man", or they can try to find a way to deal with them effectively. They have already admitted that merely curb stomping these people is ineffectual and unfair and that brings us to where we are now, with CCP, the ISD and the more calm and collected forum users looking to find an appropriate solution.
Yonis Kador wrote: I can appreciate CCPs desire for intelligent persons to discuss things intelligently and I know this game has serious brainpower. So an argument could be made that supporting forum moderation is also supporting increased efficiency in our think tank.
But I also think its important for the CCLs to remember that they aren't here to build perfect forums. They are COMMUNITY communication liasons, implying that they are here to build bridges between players and CCP.
If by their own actions, they undermine the trust of the community, they fail.
CCP have never said anything about having a desire for only intelligent people to post here, or even to post overly intelligently, what they ask for is a certain level of respect and decency to be upheld. That should be something everyone wants. Another fact is that the CCL was not designed, created or implemented in order to "build the perfect forum", it was put in place to try and ensure that the ones we have don't devolve in to a cesspit of spam, racism, personal attacks and trash.
On the last point, regarding trust, you are absolutely right when you say that the CCL has to earn the communities trust, they know this, but trust is a two way street. If, every time someone from the CCL or ISD moderates the forums in any way, all they get is verbal abuse, suggestions of personal vendettas and downright rudeness, then why should they care about having the trust of such people?
Mutual respect is what we need here. Once that is achieved the road ahead will be clear and we can finally move on. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
947
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 22:53:00 -
[312] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Mutual respect is what we need here. Once that is achieved the road ahead will be clear and we can finally move on. This I fully agree on (even though I am at times guilty in this regard).
Unfortunately, since the Incarna incident, folks have this idea that forum craziness is the only way that things get done. And so when something comes up that isn't liked (whether justified or not), we get... well, spam and rage posts. |
Ruger Cynbal
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 00:42:00 -
[313] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Mutual respect is what we need here. Once that is achieved the road ahead will be clear and we can finally move on. This I fully agree on (even though I am at times guilty in this regard). Unfortunately, since the Incarna incident, folks have this idea that forum craziness is the only way that things get done. And so when something comes up that isn't liked (whether justified or not), we get... well, spam and rage posts.
Oh ho ho. This type of forum protest was happening long before Incarna hit, and to good result usually. Definitely-ánot Jason Marshall. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
670
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 00:46:00 -
[314] - Quote
Ruger Cynbal wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Mutual respect is what we need here. Once that is achieved the road ahead will be clear and we can finally move on. This I fully agree on (even though I am at times guilty in this regard). Unfortunately, since the Incarna incident, folks have this idea that forum craziness is the only way that things get done. And so when something comes up that isn't liked (whether justified or not), we get... well, spam and rage posts. Oh ho ho. This type of forum protest was happening long before Incarna hit, and to good result usually.
And it is that attitude that I described in my earlier post. It is not sustainable, and not productive in the long term, as we are starting to see now. The idea here is to put aside the self entitled "I pay so I'm right" attitude and start to work together for the betterment of all, not to throw faecal matter at people, chest beat and declare ourselves superior. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
183
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 01:07:00 -
[315] - Quote
Cutter, you crack me up. If I had a dollar for every time you've used the word "incorrect" in your forum replies, I'd be able to buy myself something nice. Just fyi, opinions cannot be incorrect. They're opinions. Debate isn't about telling people they're wrong. Agree or disagree. Those are your options.
I find it odd that anyone would argue that players aren't the game in a pvp sandbox mmo. Take away the players, or the "p" in pvp, and you are left with a "v." Vs what? spinning in station? old age? Incarna already proved that CCP doesn't have free license to just do what they will.
There is also nothing "moot" about the determination of content value being an impossible decision, imo. It's impossible. All the training in the world matters not. You can't quantify the value of art. You can censor certain types of expression, but if that censorship is open to interpretation, there will always be claims of bias. Rules need to be clearly defined.
And lastly when someone uses lots of words like: "incorrect, wrong, delusions, moot, discontent, bad apples, vocal minority, attack, abusing," etc, while on the hunt for posters without mutual respect...
I'd politely suggest a mirror.
Yonis Kador "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3270
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 01:35:00 -
[316] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:No one here is on a war path. We are trying to get this matter fixed to everyone's liking (not an easy thing since everyone wants something different). I personally want better communication between the ISDs and us lowly folk. Death to one-liners!! Nobody here on a war path? Wrong, there are indeed players on a war path here and if needed, I can look through 'Eve Search' and link their names and statements showing them calling for blood.
Trying to get this matter fixed to everyone's liking? Sorry but that's not what Moderation is all about. There is no way it's going to be set up to please everybody and if it is, then it isn't moderation anymore.
Better communication and death to one-liners? The offending posted reply was lucky to get a one-liner explanation. Moderators do not have to nor are they expected to write anything, especially not a big ole statement or apology explaining their actions.
The best way to look at it is like this. Moderators are the school teachers, the forums are the classrooms and we are the students. For too long the teachers have been out of the classrooms allowing us students to run a muck in the classrooms.
Corina Jarr wrote:Also, anyone with an understanding of the English language should be able to put 2 and 2 together. The thread was about AFKing being botting. The joke was very on topic, and very clear even to myself, and I have Asperger's. Wrong, I understand the English language perfectly since it's my only language. As I said before, that 'gotta go pee' one-liner statement definitely looks off-topic, like a fail attempt to derail the thread with some twisted form of humor, especially if a moderator is quickly trying to clean up the thread. I would have just removed it altogether and not even bothered with an explanation, at least the moderator took the time to post a reason.
Seems you're intentionally posting statements here in an attempt to gain sympathy and justify players being able to post whatever, whenever, wherever.
Corina Jarr wrote:I myself have no problem with moderation. I'm a moderator on another forum, though with only 700 users it is much easier there. However there comes a time when things get out of hand. And unfortunately, the continuing recommendation of filing a petition does not seem to work most of the time. Since the Incarna incident (maybe before but I wasn't paying much attention in my early EVE years) CCP has reinforced the idea in our (the community) mind that the only way to get things done is with a storm of insanity. You know, I can also state that I'm a moderator in another forum or say I have a job with customer service and bla bla bla, etc. Doesn't make one iota of difference. It's a statement that can not be proved or disproved and as such, becomes irrelevant to the conversation.
As for CCP reinforcing the idea that it's fine and justified to incite rage and encourage players to quit, sorry but that is false. CCP has not done that, certain specific players have propagated that mentality over the past couple of years. They constantly instigate and incite others to follow them by feeding upon rage. I can easily link their names and statements if needed. I think the problem was CCP allowing them to do it in the first place. Now it's become common practice which any vocal group will use to force a change for their benefit, basically holding everyone hostage in the process.
People keep forgetting the bottom line :
We pay a subscription to play the game, that's it. Posting in the forums is not a requirement to play this game. Nowhere does it say in the subscription terms that players are entitled to post in the forums. Being allowed to post in these forums is a privilege that is extended by the company for us players to use, provided we follow some simple clearly defined rules.
Nowhere does it say in the forum rules that we have to be all 'cuddly-wuddly' like some players are trying to imply. However, it does state that players are expected to post with respect and be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.
Players who keep saying that this game is evil, harsh and cruel (one side of the coin) and that the forums should reflect that are basically looking to use that as an excuse to verbally assault other players, plain and simple.. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
672
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 01:38:00 -
[317] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Cutter, you crack me up. If I had a dollar for every time you've used the word "incorrect" in your forum replies, I'd be able to buy myself something nice. Just fyi, opinions cannot be incorrect. They're opinions. Debate isn't about telling people they're wrong. Agree or disagree. Those are your options. I find it odd that anyone would argue that players aren't the game in a pvp sandbox mmo. Take away the players, or the "p" in pvp, and you are left with a "v." Vs what? spinning in station? old age? Incarna already proved that CCP doesn't have free license to just do what they will. There is also nothing "moot" about the determination of content value being an impossible decision, imo. It's impossible. All the training in the world matters not. You can't quantify the value of art. You can censor certain types of expression, but if that censorship is open to interpretation, there will always be claims of bias. Rules need to be clearly defined. And lastly when someone uses lots of words like: "incorrect, wrong, delusions, moot, discontent, bad apples, vocal minority, attack, abusing," etc, while on the hunt for posters without mutual respect... I'd politely suggest a mirror. Yonis Kador
A nicely written post Yonis.
Just a few things I would like to clear up. Where I stated that a poster was incorrect, it was purely because that person was stating opinion as fact, hence they were incorrect. Had they stated it as opinion I would have merely said that I disagreed. As for my comment on the game, I stated a fact. We are not the game, EVE is, we are merely a part of it. If you or I quit and never returned, the game would continue along without us quite happily and the only thing Incarna proved was that CCP can make mistakes just like anyone else.
Now when it comes to determining the value of a specific post or thread, it is not impossible at all. If this were a free form discussion about the theories and opinions regarding something intangible, then assigning values to a post would indeed be impossible. However this place has rules and guidelines that specify the nature of the content that can be disseminated and displayed here, and thus determination of value is possible.
Now to the last part of your post, my choice of words. I am usually very careful when I write my posts, I look for the words that most closely match my thoughts, feelings and opinions. The words I chose, such as delusions, attack, abusing and phrases such as bad apples are all aimed specifically at a group of individuals recognisable by their inability to to function within a group or adhere to well established parameters regarding behaviour. The reason I mentioned mutual respect is because that particular group shows no sign of it, while demanding it from others.
I hope that clears things up for you. As always, you are entitled to your opinion, and even though I disagree with it, I defend your right to have one. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
947
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 02:34:00 -
[318] - Quote
Won't bother arguing with most of your post, difference of opinions and all that. Just one thing...
DeMichael Crimson wrote:The best way to look at it is like this. Moderators are the school teachers, the forums are the classrooms and we are the students. For too long the teachers have been out of the classrooms allowing us students to run a muck in the classrooms. The problem with this is that those "teachers" are still just students. They are no different than the student who gets to help the teacher hand out classwork. In the end those students have no real power (and if anything happened related to their helping, the teacher would be the one in trouble, not the students).
This is the problem, having people who are at the same level, but at the same time treating them as if they are not.
This is the problem with the volunteer program that so many have. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3271
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 02:41:00 -
[319] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Cutter, you crack me up. If I had a dollar for every time you've used the word "incorrect" in your forum replies, I'd be able to buy myself something nice. Just fyi, opinions cannot be incorrect. They're opinions. Debate isn't about telling people they're wrong. Agree or disagree. Those are your options. I find it odd that anyone would argue that players aren't the game in a pvp sandbox mmo. Take away the players, or the "p" in pvp, and you are left with a "v." Vs what? spinning in station? old age? Incarna already proved that CCP doesn't have free license to just do what they will. There is also nothing "moot" about the determination of content value being an impossible decision, imo. It's impossible. All the training in the world matters not. You can't quantify the value of art. You can censor certain types of expression, but if that censorship is open to interpretation, there will always be claims of bias. Rules need to be clearly defined. And lastly when someone uses lots of words like: "incorrect, wrong, delusions, moot, discontent, bad apples, vocal minority, attack, abusing," etc, while on the hunt for posters without mutual respect... I'd politely suggest a mirror. Yonis Kador Cutter already addressed your previous rebuttal towards my statement and basically hit the nail on the head. However, I won't be as magnanimous as he was regarding this latest reply from you. Your posted reply is condescending and borderline sarcastic personal attacks towards Cutter due to him disproving your previous statements.
What I see is a lot of young characters posting here all trying to dictate to CCP how they should run their business, this game and these forums.
If you say all these younger characters are alts of older characters, then they all need to post with the older characters to give credence to their replies. The use of multiple alts to meta-game an issue in this forum needs to stop. If it's due to being 'Banned' from the forums, then obviously they did the crime and now have to do the time. If you say they have been unjustly convicted, please list the name and we can all look through Eve Search together.
The Forum Rules are clearly defined. This is an international forum and what you may deem as acceptable behavior others won't. If you have doubts about a statement you want to post, then pretty much it is in noncompliance with the Forum Rules. If you want to have everything expressly listed, forget it. That just allows loopholes to be exploited.
Obviously the statement to look in a mirror also applies to you as well. |
Mallak Azaria
211
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 03:28:00 -
[320] - Quote
Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote:"It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums."
Don't confuse an extremely loud minority of forum warriors and meta gamers with the players of this game.
Well they were talking about the forums, not the players of the game that happen to make up the silent majority. |
|
Mallak Azaria
211
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 03:32:00 -
[321] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:Cutter, you crack me up. If I had a dollar for every time you've used the word "incorrect" in your forum replies, I'd be able to buy myself something nice. Just fyi, opinions cannot be incorrect. They're opinions. Debate isn't about telling people they're wrong. Agree or disagree. Those are your options. I find it odd that anyone would argue that players aren't the game in a pvp sandbox mmo. Take away the players, or the "p" in pvp, and you are left with a "v." Vs what? spinning in station? old age? Incarna already proved that CCP doesn't have free license to just do what they will. There is also nothing "moot" about the determination of content value being an impossible decision, imo. It's impossible. All the training in the world matters not. You can't quantify the value of art. You can censor certain types of expression, but if that censorship is open to interpretation, there will always be claims of bias. Rules need to be clearly defined. And lastly when someone uses lots of words like: "incorrect, wrong, delusions, moot, discontent, bad apples, vocal minority, attack, abusing," etc, while on the hunt for posters without mutual respect... I'd politely suggest a mirror. Yonis Kador Your posted reply is condescending and borderline sarcastic personal attacks.
You say this about every poster that disagrees with either you, or someone you agree with. Bringing up good points & well thought out arguments on a fairly consistent basis doesn't give you the right to claim everyone is making a personal attack just because they don't agree with you. |
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
183
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:00:00 -
[322] - Quote
DMC, I haven't attacked anyone. My post is not condescending and I make no apologies for what I wrote. (I thought I was polite.) Cutter uses the words "incorrect" and "wrong" all the time. I've been laughing about it for over a week. So I must unfortunately reject your accusations and as I do not write about things I know nothing about, I stand behind my words.
You may think I should post with an older character, a different character or maybe even while wearing a mohawk. I couldn't care less. That's your problem. I'm sure you'll probably think that statement was also condescending and vicious. It's still your problem either way.
As I have pointedly stated on many occasions, the value of an opinion is in the opinion - not the person writing it.
YK
"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
RAP ACTION HERO
120
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:07:00 -
[323] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:DMC, I haven't attacked anyone. My post is not condescending and I make no apologies for what I wrote. (I thought I was polite.) Cutter uses the words "incorrect" and "wrong" all the time. I've been laughing about it for over a week. So I must unfortunately reject your accusations and as I do not write about things I know nothing about, I stand behind my words.
You may think I should post with an older character, a different character or maybe even while wearing a mohawk. I couldn't care less. That's your problem. I'm sure you'll probably think that statement was also condescending and vicious. It's still your problem either way.
As I have pointedly stated on many occasions, the value of an opinion is in the opinion - not the person writing it.
YK
Thank you, for not posting with npc alt. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3303
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:09:00 -
[324] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Won't bother arguing with most of your post, difference of opinions and all that. Just one thing... DeMichael Crimson wrote:The best way to look at it is like this. Moderators are the school teachers, the forums are the classrooms and we are the students. For too long the teachers have been out of the classrooms allowing us students to run a muck in the classrooms. The problem with this is that those "teachers" are still just students. They are no different than the student who gets to help the teacher hand out classwork. In the end those students have no real power (and if anything happened related to their helping, the teacher would be the one in trouble, not the students). This is the problem, having people who are at the same level, but at the same time treating them as if they are not. This is the problem with the volunteer program that so many have. OK, you want to get technical, fine. The CCL are actually Substitute Teachers standing in for the actual Teachers who can't be in the Classroom for whatever reason. Doesn't matter anyway since they are still in fact a Teacher. Since you want to nit pic my analogy, let's expand on it.
The Forum Rules define conduct in School. These Forums are the School. Each sub-forum is a separate Classroom. Regular forum posters are the Students. CCL are the Teachers. CCP is the Principle. Internal Affairs is the School Board.
Students who disrupt the Classroom and do not abide by the Rules of Conduct for the School are reprimanded by the Teacher. If those Students continue, they are sent to the Principle, usually resulting in being expelled from the Classroom for a short time. If those Students are again sent to the Principle, a longer expulsion is applied and if continued, eventually end up being kicked out of the School. Students can appeal that action with a review conducted by the School Board, plain and simple.
The problem is that players have been allowed to abuse and blatantly disregard the Forum Rules for way too long. Now that those Rules are being enforced, they feel they are entitled to dictate how those Rules should be interpreted and demand that moderation be subject to their review, hopefully allowing them to continue posting like they have in the past.
Mallak Azaria wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Your posted reply is condescending and borderline sarcastic personal attacks. You say this about every poster that disagrees with either you, or someone you agree with. Bringing up good points & well thought out arguments on a fairly consistent basis doesn't give you the right to claim everyone is making a personal attack just because they don't agree with you.
Nope, only when it's evident. The remarks I was referring to are :
Quote:Cutter, you crack me up. If I had a dollar for every time you've used the word "incorrect" in your forum replies, I'd be able to buy myself something nice. - - And lastly when someone uses lots of words like: "incorrect, wrong, delusions, moot, discontent, bad apples, vocal minority, attack, abusing," etc, while on the hunt for posters without mutual respect... I'd politely suggest a mirror.
|
Mallak Azaria
212
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:11:00 -
[325] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Nope, only when it's evident. The remarks I was referring to are : Quote:Cutter, you crack me up. If I had a dollar for every time you've used the word "incorrect" in your forum replies, I'd be able to buy myself something nice. - - And lastly when someone uses lots of words like: "incorrect, wrong, delusions, moot, discontent, bad apples, vocal minority, attack, abusing," etc, while on the hunt for posters without mutual respect... I'd politely suggest a mirror.
And exactly how was this a personal attack? |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
191
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:12:00 -
[326] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The Forum Rules define conduct in School. These Forums are the School. Each sub-forum is a separate Classroom. Regular forum posters are the Students. CCL are the Teachers. CCP is the Principle. Internal Affairs is the School Board.
Students who disrupt the Classroom and do not abide by the Rules of Conduct for the School are reprimanded by the Teacher. If those Students continue, they are sent to the Principle, usually resulting in being expelled from the Classroom for a short time. If those Students are again sent to the Principle, a longer expulsion is applied and if continued, eventually end up being kicked out of the School. Students can appeal that action with a review conducted by the School Board, plain and simple.
The problem is that players have been allowed to abuse and blatantly disregard the Forum Rules for way too long. Now that those Rules are being enforced, they feel they are entitled to dictate how those Rules should be interpreted and demand that moderation be subject to their review, hopefully allowing them to continue posting like they have in the past.
I don't remember students volunteering and becoming Teachers in school. Maybe I went to a weird school, but I seem to remember that the volunteer positions available were something like Hall Monitor. And I have a distinct impression of the type of kids who signed up for that. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
183
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:14:00 -
[327] - Quote
There's nothing evident in my posts DMC. I'm noticing an evident bias on your part as a matter of fact. I quoted those words directly from Cutter's previous reply. After he used all of them (and more,) he asked for mutual respect. That's a bit hypocritical imo so I called him on it. If you'd prefer I use the word hypocrit instead of a nice allegory like a mirror, I'd be happy to do so. But my opinion will be unchanged for it.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3303
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 05:17:00 -
[328] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Nope, only when it's evident. The remarks I was referring to are : Quote:Cutter, you crack me up. If I had a dollar for every time you've used the word "incorrect" in your forum replies, I'd be able to buy myself something nice. - - And lastly when someone uses lots of words like: "incorrect, wrong, delusions, moot, discontent, bad apples, vocal minority, attack, abusing," etc, while on the hunt for posters without mutual respect... I'd politely suggest a mirror. And exactly how was this a personal attack? Stop trying to twist my statement around in an attempt to discredit it. I said 'Borderline'.
My actual statement : Quote:Your posted reply is condescending and borderline sarcastic personal attacks. If you need specifics, the first part of his statement is sarcastic which is personally directed towards Cutter. The first and second part is condescending..much like his replies directed towards me.
sarcastic Adjective: 1 - Marked by or given to using irony in order to mock or convey contempt.
irony Noun: 1 - The use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning.
condescending Adjective: 1 - Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority. 2 - (of an action) Demonstrating such an attitude.
patronizing Verb: 1 - Treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.
Pipa Porto wrote: I don't remember students volunteering and becoming Teachers in school. Maybe I went to a weird school, but I seem to remember that the volunteer positions available were something like Hall Monitor. And I have a distinct impression of the type of kids who signed up for that. You know what, it's an analogy but now that you bring it up, those students helping the Teachers in class or being 'Hall Monitors' can be compared to us regular forum posters who use the 'Report' option.
|
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
183
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 06:42:00 -
[329] - Quote
While it annoys me slightly that my contributions to this topic have become the discussion at hand due to a completely unbiased, always-objective forum poster (that's sarcasm btw before I get compared to Atilla the Hun) repeatedly quoting my posts and projecting his own feelings onto what he has read, I do think its a good example of why these open-to-interpretation rules should not be allowed. When two people can read the same thing and come to very different conclusions, what then?
Now I'm condescending AND patronizing. It keeps getting worse. What's next? A God complex? How does anyone suppose to know my state of mind? I've conveyed zero contempt. I don't even get angry. I disagreed with what I read in the forum. So I posted my opinion. That's all. I usually post once or twice a day. I have a sense of humor, but it is hugely unfair that I'm now being labled as patronizing and condescending when there's zero ability to have any clue whatsoever as to my motivations. I can assume things too. You read what you wanted to read because you're prejudiced on this issue and as a result your interpretation is faulty. See how that works?
Oh and FYI: pre.ju.dice - an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand without cause.
What I see happening here is troubling. No one should be attacking my character because they disagree with my opinion. I would never presume to know whether those who are being critical are condescending or patronizing because I am incapable of doing so. Why is this even about me at all? We deal in opinions. Agree or disagree. Taken out of context, words are meaningless. In the past two pages of this topic, the flaw in interpretive rules is made plain.
Rules, like my motivations, should not be subject to interpretation.
Yonis Kador "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
192
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 06:56:00 -
[330] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote: I don't remember students volunteering and becoming Teachers in school. Maybe I went to a weird school, but I seem to remember that the volunteer positions available were something like Hall Monitor. And I have a distinct impression of the type of kids who signed up for that. You know what, it's an analogy but now that you bring it up, those students helping the Teachers in class or being 'Hall Monitors' can be compared to us regular forum posters who use the 'Report' option.
Hall monitors are students who volunteer, get training, and wear a uniform and get certain powers over their fellow students.
That sounds a lot like the ISD. They're volunteers.
Teachers tend to get much more intensive training, have larger responsibilities and get paid. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
674
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 11:48:00 -
[331] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote: No one should be attacking my character because they disagree with my opinion. I would never presume to know whether those who are being critical are condescending or patronizing because I am incapable of doing so
Perhaps you should not have taken my post so personally. After all, the only part of it where I specifically directed a comment toward you, was when I pointed out that stating personal opinion as fact is incorrect. As to my use of the word moot, your original comment read;
Yonis Kador wrote:There is no power more absolute in a forum than the power to determine content value. That determination shouldn't ever be made lightly so it is little wonder chaos ensued from the frequency of its casual application.
I have highlighted the part I considered moot. I made this determination based on the fact that any ISD member who had (and I am in no way saying I agree with this) previously taken their duties "lightly" as you put it, would now be receiving extra training, and any recruits who have yet to start would benefit from the lessons learned by those who went before them. I do not disagree with you at all on this point, and perhaps I should have made that clearer, for that I apologise.
As to my use of descriptors when discussing a specific group or subset of a group, I find nothing wrong with my word choice. The people to whom I was referring would indeed be considered bad apples, and my assertion that they attack and abuse people is also correct, and finally they are a vocal minority. These are not personal opinions, they are facts. These people have been spotted, categorised and exemplified many times, so I fail to understand why you took this so personally.
As to your opinion that I am somehow being hypocritical, I defend your right to your opinion, but for obvious reasons I disagree with it. I should have made it clearer whom I was addressing with my call for mutual respect, so I shall attempt to do so now. I was calling to all those who felt affected by recent events, both players and staff alike. Because without mutual respect, trust can be a difficult thing to foster, as can hope, and if we do not have these things then this community will suffer.
My call for mutual respect was not, however, aimed at that vocal minority I mentioned, the "bad apples", as these people have no desire to be a part of the community, only to sow the seeds of discontent. I would no more ask for or want their respect than a cow would welcome the slaughter-man.
I hope you see now that my responses to that particular post of yours were not personal attacks, nor was I in any way saying that your opinions are invalid, and nor was I being condescending or hypocritical. This thread contains some very frank discussions and some solid ideas on the future progress of not only the ISD, but of these forums and this community and I do not wish for that to become muddied by personal recriminations. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
None ofthe Above
289
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 12:37:00 -
[332] - Quote
Forums software making your post very difficult to respond to. Grrr. May have to resort to breaking my response up.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:What's uncool is all the demands and accusations being made in this thread by the same 4 people with blood-lust in their eyes. What I see here is players trying to control and dictate how moderation should be conducted. The rules have already been established which everybody needs to abide by.
You seriously think I have blood-lust in my eyes? You should reread my posts my friend.
Its true that I am getting frustrated that there has been no substantive take of change in this thread, that perhaps I misunderstood, but thought it was opened to do just that.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:Again, we need a discussion on how to change policy to improve for the future. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432Mea culpas are all very heartfelt and appreciated but without policy changes we are fated to come right back here again. Lets have some straight talk on this subject. Sorry to say but it appears that CCP and CCL aren't interested in having a frank discussion on this. Apologize and act as if it never happened? Sorry but that's uncool. What's uncool is all the demands and accusations being made in this thread by the same 4 people with blood-lust in their eyes. What I see here is players trying to control and dictate how moderation should be conducted. The rules have already been established which everybody needs to abide by. As for your list : 1 - This is a difficult job, and not everyone is cut out for it. You do need to be prepared to get someone to stand down and get off the team. Not sure if that's applicable to the last couple of days, but in spite the urge to circle the wagons when one of your own gets in trouble, the option to thank someone for their time and telling them that its not a good fit needs to be on the table.Sorry, this is just wrong and counter-productive. This looks like you're asking for a scapegoat to hang. All people make mistakes in all professions. The point is to allow them to learn from it and progress. That's like saying if you do one wrong thing at work, you should be fired.
Actually I phrased that very carefully to avoid calling for a scape goat. Reread it.
You seem to be proposing a workplace where no one can ever get fired, we all know that would not create a successful company. I am detecting tribalism, us vs them, in the CCL. I think that's a problem. Am I calling for someone to get "fired" from their volunteer job right now? No. Just put it out there that it is possible. And its up to CCL to decide when someone is not a good fit. (While taking community responses into account of course.)
|
None ofthe Above
289
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 12:51:00 -
[333] - Quote
Continued from the previous page. Bold italic is my post that DeMicheal is responding to.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
2 - I won't be using the word censorship here, as its inappropriate. This is a private forum and CCP has the right to set the rules of the forums. But it also needs to set them in a way that fosters the kind of community it wants. Setting policies are actions, and actions have consequences. Its perfectly reasonable that the community would want to discuss or protest policies and and specific moderations, and get upset if they feel they are prevented from doing so.
The rules and policies have already been established. If the community has an issue with it they can voice their opinion and protest it in the correct venue, such as file a petition with Customer Service and or contact Internal Affairs.
Can't discuss it here? Way to make a mockery of this thread. You carefully sidestepped the whole point about consequences to this type of policy, FYI.
DeMichael Crimson wrote: 3 - The no discussing moderation rule makes some sense, but causes more difficulties than just about anything else on the forums. Perhaps a moderation discussion forum? All that in one place so discussions (something like this fine thread) can take place but not overwhelm everything else. Clear ability to dispute specific incidents and moderation policy is needed in environments like this.
Again this is another bad idea. Basically this can be easily exploited by players trying to gain control and dictate how moderation should be conducted as well as openly crucify moderators. That is not our place to decide that. CCP set's the rules and policies. This is their house. Again as in the previous point, if the community has a problem or issue, they need to voice it in the correct venue, Customer Service and Internal Affairs.
Ugh like that is likely to work. Again no public discussions. This creates an echo chamber for all CCL to sit around and get farther and farther out of touch, convinced that they are doing just fine.
DeMichael Crimson wrote: 4 - Moderation needs to back off at least a little, IMHO, when substantive topics are being discussed. It really sucks to see valid points squashed just because the poster got a little heated. Forums become useless if people can't communicate.
No, the community needs to follow the policies as set forth in the Forum Rules. If Moderation backs off, the forums will just go back to how it was before. Too many times a topic has quickly derailed into a massive flame war due to posters becoming a little heated. There's a big difference between constructive communication and verbal assault. Where there's smoke, there's a fire and as such, it needs to be put out asap.
I sort of agree here, but have seen instances of over zealous moderation smother proper communication, there has to be a balance.
FYI - I never suggested that moderation should back off to the point of letting things go back to the way it was. I just want to see some intelligent moderation of the moderation.
DeMichael Crimson wrote: 5 - Threads should probably not be locked because other posters are spamming it and its gone off topic. This opens the door to abuse as people who do not want something discussed can "shiptoast" up the thread and get it locked.
This I agree with, those replies should be removed and the thread put back on track. The offending character should be warned via Eve mail along with account Email address. If they continue after being warned, they should be banned. A good rule for that is the 3 strike count. However, if the thread continues to derail, it should be locked. Again the 3 strike rule could apply. If it's in the wrong sub forum, it needs to be moved. Also if the thread is non conforming to forum rules, it needs to be deleted.
Wow almost an agreement on a change of policy. Good thing we can discuss such things, yes?
You still leave it open for malfeasant forum warriors to organize and squelch discussions by getting off topic on a valid thread three times. It's not like the thread is a thing in itself that willfully went off-topic and should be punished.
DeMichael Crimson wrote: 6 - There are times when a truly offensive post needs to stand. For example, during the last CSM election season several candidates made posts so bad they had to be removed by moderation (not sure that was ISD at that point, but I am sure the issue is bound to come up next year). The problem with this is it essentially white-washed the incident from the voters mind. At least one of said candidates went on to win a seat. Imagine if the news suppressed American presidential candidate Perry's "OOPS" moment as a mistake, or refused to discuss Romney's bullying incident? Lets not let moderation overwhelm important points and information. (While personal attacks against candidates, if not properly substantiated, are probably off limits and rightly moderated.) Alternatively, if it's so bad you can't leave it on the forums, maybe that person should be removed from the ballot.
There's a very fine line here. Letting an offensive post stand only breeds discontent and rage. There was an excessive amount of trolling happening in candidates threads trying to derail them right and left. A lot of mud slinging going on as well as posting off topic replies intended to berate, demean and incite rage. All of which is against the forum rules. If there is factual truth to counter their candidacy platform, it should be presented in a civil manner as per forum rules.
Missing the point that the candidates themselves were the ones out of line. Cleaning up their mess may have shaped the election. May do so again in the future.
|
RAP ACTION HERO
120
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 15:54:00 -
[334] - Quote
in da dmc zone, spam report button enough and a few will hit. |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 16:47:00 -
[335] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:4 - Moderation needs to back off at least a little, IMHO, when substantive topics are being discussed. It really sucks to see valid points squashed just because the poster got a little heated. Forums become useless if people can't communicate.DeMichael Crimson wrote: No, the community needs to follow the policies as set forth in the Forum Rules. If Moderation backs off, the forums will just go back to how it was before. Too many times a topic has quickly derailed into a massive flame war due to posters becoming a little heated. There's a big difference between constructive communication and verbal assault. Where there's smoke, there's a fire and as such, it needs to be put out asap.
I sort of agree here, but have seen instances of over zealous moderation smother proper communication, there has to be a balance.
Point 4 is very true but also ...... kind of trival. Every moderator may close thread topic hulkageddon the 114th without hesitation while too much moderation of a thread like Goon 4X4 ing thread might just breed rage.
1. Different moderation for different forums 2. Different moderation for different topics
Checking the content of the ISD seminars ISD seminar gave me some mixed feeling about CCL moderator education ..... as i see none of the issues we discussed here listed as seminar content.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The best way to look at it is like this. Moderators are the school teachers/ social workers, the forums are the classrooms and we are the students. For too long the teachers have been out of the classrooms allowing us students to run a muck in the classrooms.
For moderating a thread like Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included - Free wardec inside) one may need social skills. Knowledge about fleet Maneuvering is secondary.
None ofthe Above wrote:6 - There are times when a truly offensive post needs to stand. For example, during the last CSM election season several candidates made posts so bad they had to be removed by moderation (not sure that was ISD at that point, but I am sure the issue is bound to come up next year). The problem with this is it essentially white-washed the incident from the voters mind. DeMichael Crimson wrote:
There's a very fine line here. Letting an offensive post stand only breeds discontent and rage. There was an excessive amount of trolling happening in candidates threads trying to derail them right and left. A lot of mud slinging going on as well as posting off topic replies intended to berate, demean and incite rage. All of which is against the forum rules. If there is factual truth to counter their candidacy platform, it should be presented in a civil manner as per forum rules.
Missing the point that the candidates themselves were the ones out of line. Cleaning up their mess may have shaped the election. May do so again in the future.
Moderation of CSM threads is a special case .... which we probaply shouldn't tackle here as long as CCL hasn't achieved/decided about its primary goal.
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
674
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 16:54:00 -
[336] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote:Checking the content of the ISD seminars ISD seminar gave me some mixed feeling about CCL moderator education ..... as i see none of the issues we discussed here listed as seminar content.
Just thought I should point out that the ISD Seminars have absolutely nothing to do with CCL, nor forum moderation. They are seminars held by ISD STAR members to aid players in learning about the game, and to assist in moderating the ingame help channels. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 17:52:00 -
[337] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Just thought I should point out that the ISD Seminars have absolutely nothing to do with CCL, nor forum moderation. They are seminars held by ISD STAR members to aid players in learning about the game, and to assist in moderating the ingame help channels.
I followed the link navigator provided at the topic start
CCP Navigator wrote:...... GÇóThe Community team will hold regular Skype voice chats with volunteers and address their concerns, assist them with any training they may require and help answer any of their queries GÇóWe will aim to have an ISD Seminar for the CCL at the earliest opportunity. Hopefully this can be sometime in July but may run over into August due to vacations and Alliance Tournament. GÇóWe will provide moderation log access to the Admirals and Captains so that they can fully see what the ISD team are editing/deleting. This access does not compromise any of your personal information or show any warning or ban history. It literally shows the content of deleted posts, edited/original content and who carried that out. GÇóIncrease the volunteer team by a further six people over the coming weeks and provide a stable structure for an easier flow of communication between CCP and the volunteers so that they can get advice on moderation actions if they are required. Thank you for your time. The EVE Community and CCL teams |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
674
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 17:54:00 -
[338] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote:GÇóWe will aim to have an ISD Seminar for the CCL at the earliest opportunity. Hopefully this can be sometime in July but may run over into August due to vacations and Alliance Tournament.
I think you may have jumped the gun ever so slightly.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 18:06:00 -
[339] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Kyshonuba wrote:GÇóWe will aim to have an ISD Seminar for the CCL at the earliest opportunity. Hopefully this can be sometime in July but may run over into August due to vacations and Alliance Tournament. I think you may have jumped the gun ever so slightly.
My rants are about ISD seminar content ... not about the timing. Follow the link and you get a summary of ISD seminar content. ....it looks all to technical for my taste. But maybe CCP Navigator is just unclear about which kind of seminars ISD members and which kind CCL members get.
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
675
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 18:12:00 -
[340] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Kyshonuba wrote:GÇóWe will aim to have an ISD Seminar for the CCL at the earliest opportunity. Hopefully this can be sometime in July but may run over into August due to vacations and Alliance Tournament. I think you may have jumped the gun ever so slightly. My rants are about ISD seminar content ... not about the timing. Follow the link and you get a summary of ISD seminar content. ....it looks all to technical for my taste. But maybe CCP Navigator is just unclear about which kind of seminars ISD members and which kind CCL members get.
Current ISD seminars are aimed at teaching players about the game. I believe Navigator is talking about the possibility of starting seminars for the CCL members as part of their training, and that these may start sometime this month. Having long standing ISD STAR members taking part in those seminars in conjunction with CCP staff makes sense, as STAR members not only assist players in the in-game chat channels, they also have to moderate those channels, so they have a wealth of experience. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
|
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
121
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 18:38:00 -
[341] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Kyshonuba wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Kyshonuba wrote:GÇóWe will aim to have an ISD Seminar for the CCL at the earliest opportunity. Hopefully this can be sometime in July but may run over into August due to vacations and Alliance Tournament. I think you may have jumped the gun ever so slightly. My rants are about ISD seminar content ... not about the timing. Follow the link and you get a summary of ISD seminar content. ....it looks all to technical for my taste. But maybe CCP Navigator is just unclear about which kind of seminars ISD members and which kind CCL members get. Current ISD seminars are aimed at teaching players about the game. I believe Navigator is talking about the possibility of starting seminars for the CCL members as part of their training, and that these may start sometime this month. Having long standing ISD STAR members taking part in those seminars in conjunction with CCP staff makes sense, as STAR members not only assist players in the in-game chat channels, they also have to moderate those channels, so they have a wealth of experience.
That is not correct, Cutter. The ISD Seminar, we have planned is a Q&A session with the Community Team and the CCL team.
More details about it will follow soon. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
677
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 19:15:00 -
[342] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Kyshonuba wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Kyshonuba wrote:GÇóWe will aim to have an ISD Seminar for the CCL at the earliest opportunity. Hopefully this can be sometime in July but may run over into August due to vacations and Alliance Tournament. I think you may have jumped the gun ever so slightly. My rants are about ISD seminar content ... not about the timing. Follow the link and you get a summary of ISD seminar content. ....it looks all to technical for my taste. But maybe CCP Navigator is just unclear about which kind of seminars ISD members and which kind CCL members get. Current ISD seminars are aimed at teaching players about the game. I believe Navigator is talking about the possibility of starting seminars for the CCL members as part of their training, and that these may start sometime this month. Having long standing ISD STAR members taking part in those seminars in conjunction with CCP staff makes sense, as STAR members not only assist players in the in-game chat channels, they also have to moderate those channels, so they have a wealth of experience. That is not correct, Cutter. The ISD Seminar, we have planned is a Q&A session with the Community Team and the CCL team. More details about it will follow soon.
Oooh, shiny!! Happy to be proven wrong in this instance. Will these seminars become a regular thing? Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3324
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 23:59:00 -
[343] - Quote
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:in da dmc zone, spam report button enough and a few will hit. Don't know what your problem is but you've been stalking me in quite a few different threads. Since you're bound and determined to dance with me, it's time to tango. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3324
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 01:28:00 -
[344] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:4 - Moderation needs to back off at least a little, IMHO, when substantive topics are being discussed. It really sucks to see valid points squashed just because the poster got a little heated. Forums become useless if people can't communicate.DeMichael Crimson wrote: No, the community needs to follow the policies as set forth in the Forum Rules. If Moderation backs off, the forums will just go back to how it was before. Too many times a topic has quickly derailed into a massive flame war due to posters becoming a little heated. There's a big difference between constructive communication and verbal assault. Where there's smoke, there's a fire and as such, it needs to be put out asap. I sort of agree here, but have seen instances of over zealous moderation smother proper communication, there has to be a balance. Point 4 is very true but also ...... kind of trival. Every moderator may close thread topic hulkageddon the 114th without hesitation while too much moderation of a thread like Goon 4X4 ing thread might just breed rage. 1. Different moderation for different forums 2. Different moderation for different topics Checking the content of the ISD seminars ISD seminar gave me some mixed feeling about CCL moderator education ..... as i see none of the issues we discussed here listed as seminar content. That 4x4 thread needed to be deleted, plain and simple. It consistently broke a multitude of different forum rules. The OP was a 3 post rant created specifically to incite rage and insult various groups of players. It contained personal attacks and gloated about exploiting a bug within the game. This type of thread is unacceptable and proves how desperately these forums need moderation.
Different moderation for different forums? Different moderation for different topics?
That is completely counter productive, not to mention places undue hardship on moderators. Basically you're trying to dictate how moderation should be conducted, thus allowing players a way to manipulate and exploit the Forum Rules.
There's only one issue here that needs to be addressed - Certain specific players have been willfully and blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. They were held accountable for their actions and now after inciting forum rage, are trying to dictate how the forum rules should be interpreted as well as gain some sort of control over moderation.
Kyshonuba wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote: The best way to look at it is like this. Moderators are the school teachers/ social workers, the forums are the classrooms and we are the students. For too long the teachers have been out of the classrooms allowing us students to run a muck in the classrooms. For moderating a thread like Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included - Free wardec inside) one may need social skills. Knowledge about fleet Maneuvering is secondary. Please do not edit something else into a quoted statement of mine and then try to use that to justify your own viewpoint. You added "/ social workers" to my statement.
The one may need social skills are the players who feel they are entitled to disregard the Forum Rules. |
RAP ACTION HERO
120
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 02:32:00 -
[345] - Quote
That 4x4 thread needed to be deleted, plain and simple. It consistently broke a multitude of different forum rules. The OP was a meaningless 1 liner created specifically to incite rage and insult those who abide by the original intent of the like system. It contained nothing but gloating about how people can post gibberish and get likes. That thread is devoid of content, which is the most sited charge when locking threads, yet it stands. That type of thread is unacceptable and proves how desperately these forums need unbiased moderation.
|
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 02:44:00 -
[346] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The one may need social skills are the players who feel they are entitled to disregard the Forum Rules.
You made it clear, that you wish CCL to go hard on the trolls and you wont accept some extent of polemic/trolling in some special forum area's because Quote : "That is completely counter productive, not to mention places undue hardship on moderators"
CCP Navigator made this statement on page 3
CCP Navigator wrote:Quaaid wrote:
Making plans around self-defining GD when the community has already defined it for you will end poorly.
I have years of gaming forum moderation experience under my belt, and hold three things to always be true: - There needs to be an outlet for crap posts - People want their crap posts to be seen - Your most popular board will therefore be the natural home of crap posts
You can solve this problem in a number of ways: - Create a feedback forum for your intentions, leaving General to be General (Quaaid Approved) - Create a crap post forum, and let the trolls have it as you repurpose General to be your feedback hub ( mild end user change, harder to impliment) - Stay the course, and learn the hard lessons, perhaps succeed where others have failed (constricting end user change, imminent failure)
'Crap posts' are not necessarily a problem. Abusive, spiteful and hateful posts most certainly are. There are a wealth of forums which cater to this type of posting but this will not be one of them.
|
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
185
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 03:11:00 -
[347] - Quote
"I" certainly wasn't banned and I'm here trying to debate the merits of forum moderation relative to its enforcement.
Some of you guys (two with particular zest) are advocating such a strict adherence to the rules that imo it wouldn't necessarily be beneficial. How's it working out so far? The effects are uncertain because so are the rules. Obedience to rules isn't even something readily cultivated by this particular community. The people who frequent these forums aren't stupid. An iron grip based on inconsistent, interpretive rules is going to challenged - consistently. So I'm not at all sold on these predictions of forum Shangri-La if the military moves into town.
I support a more balanced approach. My position is that language and personal attacks (with an attack being blatantly obvious) should of course be moderated. But people need to feel secure that bias and favoritism will not be a factor here and for that all we have are other players' words. Which means nothing. Trust isn't an asset in EvE. Even the people I like I suspect could abuse the privilege at any time.
So today for example, I logged onto GD and the first topic was: "So The Mittani is Invading rest of free Eve?! ( Sarcasms sign hold up )"
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=127453&p=1
and I thought, as usual, the obligatory Goon topic, let's see what's inside.
In the very first comment I read:
"ISD Stenneson wrote: Edit: Title changed. No associations with real life politicians and offenders please. Bringing real life in the game is not good idea. - ISD Stensson
This was written yesterday. Now where in the rules does it say that talking about "real life" is not a good idea? Forum rules state topics must be eve-related. That's it. So how are real-world comparisons, when used to demonstrate an in-game situation, a bad idea? Yes, I know the subject matter in this particular case is sensitive. But as long as the reference is in a historical context and not about glorifying real-world politics, a historical reference should be OK. We are adults. Should slavery also fall under this umbrella of moderation to protect the sensibilities of certain ethnicities? There are slaves in the game! I mean where does it end.
There is no end, because it's going to be selectively enforced, so it's these personal determinations I take issue with.
All I know is that there's only one sure outcome of iron grip moderation and rampant "no content" locks...
less communication.
And in a public forum, that is an odd thing to celebrate.
Whether you agree/disagree that what's left is better or worse, forum rules should be clearly defined and not open to these personal interpretations of content. If CCLs are locking a 150 page thread that is actively being participated in, "no content" shouldn't even be an option anymore. And the specific rule violated should be posted following EVERY correction imo.
No officer issues a ticket without telling you what law you broke.
Yonis Kador
"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3335
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 06:41:00 -
[348] - Quote
Such a flair for the dramatics. Talk about blowing things out of proportion. While there is definite insinuations being directed to 2 specific players (by the way, there's more than just us 2 players with the same viewpoint), I'll try to maintain a respectful reply. For the past few years there has been a very noticeable relaxed adherence to the rules, basically a lack of moderation which many believe has been detrimental to the overall community spirit.
How has that been beneficial to the community and this sub-forum?
Yonis Kador wrote:So today for example, I logged onto GD and the first topic was: "So The Mittani is Invading rest of free Eve?! ( Sarcasms sign hold up )" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=127453&p=1and I thought, as usual, the obligatory Goon topic, let's see what's inside. In the very first comment I read: " ISD Stenneson wrote: Edit: Title changed. No associations with real life politicians and offenders please. Bringing real life in the game is not good idea. - ISD Stensson This was written yesterday. Now where in the rules does it say that talking about "real life" is not a good idea? Forum rules state topics must be eve-related. That's it. So how are real-world comparisons, when used to demonstrate an in-game situation, a bad idea? Yes, I know the subject matter in this particular case is sensitive. But as long as the reference is in a historical context and not about glorifying real-world politics, a historical reference should be OK. We are adults. Should slavery also fall under this umbrella of moderation to protect the sensibilities of certain ethnicities? There are slaves in the game! I mean where does it end. There is no end, because it's going to be selectively enforced, so it's these personal determinations I take issue with. Yonis Kador
Instead of just quickly jumping on the bandwagon and claiming 'Biased' and 'Favoritism' moderation, how about doing a little bit of research?
http://eve-search.com/thread/127453-1
That was definitely a good move by moderation and he even gave a reason for it. I don't care for 'The Mittani' myself but that thread title was way out of line and needed to be changed. Even after 65 years, that historical name and events associated with that name is still the most hated topic existing in the world today.
Most people would not like being tagged with that historical entity and would be greatly offended by it. The OP of that thread picked a specific real life historical entity that is known to generate a lot of hate and rage. I guess some people like it and think it's acceptable behavior to incite rage in other people. Obviously the only reason they do it is due to hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet. Guarantee they wouldn't be doing it in person.
I could post all sorts of counter points to those wanting to dictate and control how moderation is conducted but I actually like playing this game and quite frankly, responding to all of them will take too much time. Obviously the 4 or 5 people in this thread who keep pushing for that have a vested interest in being able to incite rage and verbally assault other players at leisure.
All societies have rules set in place for their communities to follow. Those who willfully and habitually break those rules will suffer the consequences for their actions. The FORUM RULES are clearly stated and need to be enforced. Those who don't want to abide by those rules don't have to post in these forums. |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 07:54:00 -
[349] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Instead of just quickly jumping on the bandwagon and claiming 'Biased' and 'Favoritism' moderation, how about doing a little bit of research?
.
Care to prove where Yonis Kador is "jumping on the bandwagon and claiming 'Biased' and 'Favoritism' moderation" ? Maybe you are only a fan of irongrip based forum moderation ...... because you yourself fail in realizing your own insulting posting style.
Quoting a wall of text, then subsummizing the posters intensions (willingly) in a wrong way without text proof is usually one of the very first steps before a topic goes into trolling & Off-topic |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
212
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 08:31:00 -
[350] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Instead of just quickly jumping on the bandwagon and claiming 'Biased' and 'Favoritism' moderation, how about doing a little bit of research? http://eve-search.com/thread/127453-1That was definitely a good move by moderation and he even gave a reason for it. I don't care for 'The Mittani' myself but that thread title was way out of line and needed to be changed. Even after 65 years, that historical name and events associated with that name is still the most hated topic existing in the world today.
Nobody ever claimed that the ISDs never made the right call in their moderation actions, or that topics and posts should never have their content moderated. The issue was that they went overboard and moderated many posts and threads that did not require moderation because, under even the strictest interpretation of the rules, they were fine.
Unless... maybe there's a rule against tucking in one's shirt... -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
678
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 12:39:00 -
[351] - Quote
I think this thread has pretty much come to a shuddering halt now. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
215
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 12:43:00 -
[352] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:I think this thread has pretty much come to a shuddering halt now.
It's all a matter of waiting and seeing if there's improvement. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
678
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 12:44:00 -
[353] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I think this thread has pretty much come to a shuddering halt now. It's all a matter of waiting and seeing if there's improvement.
There isn't. We've gone 17 pages and what was your last comment about? Shirts. We have gone 17 pages to precisely no-where. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
215
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 13:01:00 -
[354] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I think this thread has pretty much come to a shuddering halt now. It's all a matter of waiting and seeing if there's improvement. There isn't. We've gone 17 pages and what was your last comment about? Shirts. We have gone 17 pages to precisely no-where.
My last comment was about countering DMC's assertion that all moderation actions were justified because one moderation action was.
Shirts was the counterexample proving that not all moderation actions were justified. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3341
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 13:41:00 -
[355] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote: Care to prove where Yonis Kador is "jumping on the bandwagon and claiming 'Biased' and 'Favoritism' moderation" ? Maybe you are only a fan of irongrip based forum moderation ...... because you yourself fail in realizing your own insulting posting style.
Quoting a wall of text, then subsummizing the posters intensions (willingly) in a wrong way without text proof is usually one of the very first steps before a topic goes into trolling & Off-topic
The text proof you're looking for is in the preceding paragraph to his 'example' which I quoted. I'm not going to quote his entire reply nor do I want to nit pic it to death. He's entitled to voice his opinion about moderation. I merely showed how the moderator was justified in changing that thread title. Often times there's more to it than what meets the eye.
One can only surmise there's an ulterior motive for needlessly wasting time with this. The very first steps of a thread being trolled and going off-topic is when someone picks out one little sentence from an entire post, demands 'Proof' while saying the posting style is 'insulting'. The second step is somebody like me posting in defense.
Pipa Porto wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I think this thread has pretty much come to a shuddering halt now. It's all a matter of waiting and seeing if there's improvement. There isn't. We've gone 17 pages and what was your last comment about? Shirts. We have gone 17 pages to precisely no-where. My last comment was about countering DMC's assertion that all moderation actions were justified because one moderation action was. Shirts was the counterexample proving that not all moderation actions were justified.
Cutter is right. This topic has gone full circle and reached an impasse.
You keep harping and ranting about that one little mistake which has already been addressed. I can show 100 times more examples where moderation has been justified. Obviously you won't let that one incident go since it's fuel for flames.
Anyway, I've wasted enough time with this thread. I'm tired of seeing all the allegations being posted against CCP, ISD and the CCL by players feigning sincere intentions to help come up with a solution to insure that won't happen again.
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
217
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 13:46:00 -
[356] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote: Cutter is right. This topic has gone full circle and reached an impasse.
You keep harping and ranting about that one little mistake which has already been addressed. I can show 100 times more examples where moderation has been justified. Obviously you won't let that one incident go since it's fuel for flames.
Anyway, I've wasted enough time with this thread. I'm tired of seeing all the allegations being posted against CCP, ISD and the CCL by players feigning sincere intentions to help come up with a solution to insure that won't happen again.
And I could show many more examples of unjustified moderation. The fire had already been lit when the shirt thread happened. That lock just threw gasoline on it. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1859
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 14:16:00 -
[357] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic. I think the problem on the post I linked was a failure to understand the intent. He/she didn't "read between the lines." Stating that I have to pee seems non sequitur, but the implication of the post was that I'm in dangerous space and need to step away, so I cloak up to take a few minutes' break. As that would technically be "AFK cloaking", according to the OP I would be botting. I suspect much of the excessive editing going on is due to a lack of comprehension. http://eve-search.com/thread/126324-1/page/3#70Quote:Posted - 2012.06.27 14:33:00 - [70] - brb guys, I gotta go pee
*banned for botting* Nobody is a mind reader and that definitely looks like it's off-topic to me. It actually looks like a fail attempt to be funny and derail the thread. "Read Between The Lines"? "Lack Of Comprehension"? Maybe if you had clarified your statement like you're doing now, then the intent would have been clear and it wouldn't have been removed. I see no wrong doing from the CCL in that yet you're trying to turn it into a Federal Case. Looking at Eve Search definitely paints a different story from what's being presented here in this thread by the same 4 people on a war path looking to scalp someone. If you don't put every post regarding game mechanics in the context of the game, then you're not reading the forums properly. I suspect that most players who fly in dangerous space with cloaks fully understood my meaning. Beyond that, the thread suggests that afk cloaking is botting, and I SAID SOMETHING ABOUT BOTTING, just after saying I was going afk. Frankly, I expect Eve players to be bright enough to catch that.
Nobody is a mind reader, but I do expect people to be able to think about what they read and apply context. The ISD didn't do that.
edit: and "federal case"? Really? I made a whopping TWO posts about it. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3341
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 15:10:00 -
[358] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:This post is a good example of what the ISDs are doing wrong. Something completely relevant to the topic at hand was edited out as off-topic. I think the problem on the post I linked was a failure to understand the intent. He/she didn't "read between the lines." Stating that I have to pee seems non sequitur, but the implication of the post was that I'm in dangerous space and need to step away, so I cloak up to take a few minutes' break. As that would technically be "AFK cloaking", according to the OP I would be botting. I suspect much of the excessive editing going on is due to a lack of comprehension. http://eve-search.com/thread/126324-1/page/3#70Quote:Posted - 2012.06.27 14:33:00 - [70] - brb guys, I gotta go pee
*banned for botting* Nobody is a mind reader and that definitely looks like it's off-topic to me. It actually looks like a fail attempt to be funny and derail the thread. "Read Between The Lines"? "Lack Of Comprehension"? Maybe if you had clarified your statement like you're doing now, then the intent would have been clear and it wouldn't have been removed. I see no wrong doing from the CCL in that yet you're trying to turn it into a Federal Case. Looking at Eve Search definitely paints a different story from what's being presented here in this thread by the same 4 people on a war path looking to scalp someone. If you don't put every post regarding game mechanics in the context of the game, then you're not reading the forums properly. I suspect that most players who fly in dangerous space with cloaks fully understood my meaning. Beyond that, the thread suggests that afk cloaking is botting, and I SAID SOMETHING ABOUT BOTTING, just after saying I was going afk. Frankly, I expect Eve players to be bright enough to catch that. Nobody is a mind reader, but I do expect people to be able to think about what they read and apply context. The ISD didn't do that. edit: and "federal case"? Really? I made a whopping TWO posts about it.
Heh, I read the forums properly and I also fly in dangerous space with cloak. My statement still stands and regardless of how you try to whitewash that, it is lacking substance and can easily be viewed as off-topic as well as being a fail attempt at humor. One of the main things that's always being preached in these forums is DETAILS and that statement is definitely lacking details, other than the fact that you gotta go pee..
And yes, a Federal Case. Which is exactly what you're trying to turn this into.
Anyway, I'm definitely out of here now. Good luck to all of you with your revenge quest.
|
None ofthe Above
292
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 15:30:00 -
[359] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote: There's only one issue here that needs to be addressed - Certain specific players have been willfully and blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. They were held accountable for their actions and now after inciting forum rage, are trying to dictate how the forum rules should be interpreted as well as gain some sort of control over moderation.
While that may be some posters agenda, I submit that its not the only thing that needs to be addressed.
I don't believe I have ever been moderated, or held accountable for any misdeeds here on the forums.
Overzealous moderation of other's posts has, however, has adversely affected me here. The usefulness of the forums to discuss important issues has been curtailed by premature closing of threads, deleting and snipping posts that, IMHO, didn't deserve to be snipped.
If it continues, it may drive serious discussion off of these forums.
I am not trying to pull CCL down or get anyone punished for the recent events, but there would seem to be room for improvement.
Can we please have a discussion about this? Why is dev, gm, and ISD posting to this thread, but studiously avoiding discussing changes to policy?
CCP & CCL Please reply to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432
Or other people's similar posts
Thank you
|
None ofthe Above
292
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 15:40:00 -
[360] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I think this thread has pretty much come to a shuddering halt now. It's all a matter of waiting and seeing if there's improvement. There isn't. We've gone 17 pages and what was your last comment about? Shirts. We have gone 17 pages to precisely no-where.
Oh by all means have this thread locked. That would solve all the problems.
Honestly a much bigger part of this thread than discussion of shirts, has been two people trying to overwhelm and dismiss as irrelevant the concerns of many others.
While I am interested in valid discussion and your counterpoints, I find your attempts to squelch the conversation transparent and counterproductive.
|
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
680
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 17:09:00 -
[361] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I think this thread has pretty much come to a shuddering halt now. It's all a matter of waiting and seeing if there's improvement. There isn't. We've gone 17 pages and what was your last comment about? Shirts. We have gone 17 pages to precisely no-where. Oh by all means have this thread locked. That would solve all the problems. Honestly a much bigger part of this thread than discussion of shirts, has been two people trying to overwhelm and dismiss as irrelevant the concerns of many others. While I am interested in valid discussion and your counterpoints, I find your attempts to squelch the conversation transparent and counterproductive.
I suggest you re-examine what I said carefully. I am not trying to have the thread locked, nor am I attempting to squelch the conversation. I am merely pointing out that at the moment the conversation seems to have gotten stuck in a loop, thus it is not progressing, thus it is not really a discussion but merely a cyclical argument.
And as far as I can tell, and I have been keeping a very close eye on this thread as well as participating, no-one is trying to dismiss peoples concerns, it is just that now that we know what peoples concerns are, there is no need to constantly repeat them.
What we need is to draw up a concise list of issues that CCP and the ISD can assess and address, something we have so far failed to do because too many people are content with said cyclical argument. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
949
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:27:00 -
[362] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:What we need is to draw up a concise list of issues that CCP and the ISD can assess and address, something we have so far failed to do because too many people are content with said cyclical argument. Pretty much why I tried to limit my posting after a while. Even though I had things to say, they really wouldn't help the bigger issue. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3341
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 19:12:00 -
[363] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote: There's only one issue here that needs to be addressed - Certain specific players have been willfully and blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. They were held accountable for their actions and now after inciting forum rage, are trying to dictate how the forum rules should be interpreted as well as gain some sort of control over moderation.
While that may be some posters agenda, I submit that its not the only thing that needs to be addressed. I don't believe I have ever been moderated, or held accountable for any misdeeds here on the forums. Overzealous moderation of other's posts has, however, has adversely affected me here. The usefulness of the forums to discuss important issues has been curtailed by premature closing of threads, deleting and snipping posts that, IMHO, didn't deserve to be snipped. If it continues, it may drive serious discussion off of these forums. I am not trying to pull CCL down or get anyone punished for the recent events, but there would seem to be room for improvement. I'm sorry but your statements seem to be conflicting and or uninformed. Either you're a naive new player or an alt of a banned character.
If players want a serious discussion about a specific aspect of Eve, they go to it's specific sub forum. Want some info about Agents or Exploration, go to Missions & Complexes sub-forum. Got questions about Trade, go to Market sub-forum. etc. Most of the people who frequent those sub-forums won't tolerate trolling and usually report it when it happens.
However, General Discussion has over the years turned into nothing more than a Mosh-Pit of hate and rage due to players not abiding by the forum rules. That has definitely driven away serious discussions. This sub-forum has been dubbed Troll Central for good reason. Ask various players in-game if they participate in the forums and most will say no. When asked why, they usually say because of the constant trolling.
First you say overzealous moderation has adversely affected you, that the usefulness of the forums to discuss serious topics has been curtailed by premature closing of threads, deleting and sniping posts that don't deserve it. Then you say you don't want to pull CCL down or punish anyone yet in another posted reply the very first thing you suggest is for CCP to consider giving someone their walking papers..
I'm sorry but this sounds like an alt of a banned character trying to silence or discredit those with opposing viewpoint..
Quote:Honestly a much bigger part of this thread than discussion of shirts, has been two people trying to overwhelm and dismiss as irrelevant the concerns of many others. Concerns of many others?
If there really was a major issue, this thread would have already become a mega thread-naught by now.
I gotta say in my 4 years of being an active member on these forums, this thread takes the cake. 1/2 dozen characters trying to force CCP into making concessions as to how the Forum Rules should be interpreted and how moderation should be conducted. Looking to gain control or extract revenge by constantly posting very debatable and easily dismissed fail examples of 'Unjustified Moderation'.
I came to this thread and posted my viewpoint to CCP, ISD and CCL which was immediately attacked by other players. I don't want to stay in this thread so now I ask everyone, please stop directing replies towards me so I can stay away from this thread.
|
None ofthe Above
292
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:29:00 -
[364] - Quote
Sorry for replying in spite your request not to, but it's hard to avoid when you assert a bunch of things and try to leave it as a last word.
Feel free not to respond.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:None ofthe Above wrote: I don't believe I have ever been moderated, or held accountable for any misdeeds here on the forums.
Overzealous moderation of other's posts has, however, has adversely affected me here. The usefulness of the forums to discuss important issues has been curtailed by premature closing of threads, deleting and snipping posts that, IMHO, didn't deserve to be snipped.
If it continues, it may drive serious discussion off of these forums.
I am not trying to pull CCL down or get anyone punished for the recent events, but there would seem to be room for improvement.
I'm sorry but your statements seem to be conflicting and or uninformed. Either you're a naive new player or an alt of a banned character. If players want a serious discussion about a specific aspect of Eve, they go to it's specific sub forum. Want some info about Agents or Exploration, go to Missions & Complexes sub-forum. Got questions about Trade, go to Market sub-forum. etc. Most of the people who frequent those sub-forums won't tolerate trolling and usually report it when it happens. However, General Discussion has over the years turned into nothing more than a Mosh-Pit of hate and rage due to players not abiding by the forum rules. That has definitely driven away serious discussions. This sub-forum has been dubbed Troll Central for good reason. Ask various players in-game if they participate in the forums and most will say no. When asked why, they usually say because of the constant trolling. First you say overzealous moderation has adversely affected you, that the usefulness of the forums to discuss serious topics has been curtailed by premature closing of threads, deleting and sniping posts that don't deserve it. Then you say you don't want to pull CCL down or punish anyone yet in another posted reply the very first thing you suggest is for CCP to consider giving someone their walking papers.. I'm sorry but this sounds like an alt of a banned character trying to silence or discredit those with opposing viewpoint..
Well I've never been banned on any account. My age is a matter of record in my aborted CSM candidacy thread. Yes I am less than a year "old" still, although rapidly coming up on that anniversary. A rookie in the classic sense of things, if that helps you dismiss me. I don't think of my self as naive however. The naive never do I suppose.
My goal then as it is now is to help foster better communication. That's my agenda, as it were.
Not sure why you are trying to recast this to just EVE General. I was referring to the whole of the forums.
As for giving someone the "walking papers", I simply suggested that its a hard job and some people may not be suited to it. This is speaking as community forums moderator myself for many years. Please don't let that tickle your paranoia, what you are afraid of is not my intention.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Quote:Honestly a much bigger part of this thread than discussion of shirts, has been two people trying to overwhelm and dismiss as irrelevant the concerns of many others. Concerns of many others? If there really was a major issue, this thread would have already become a mega thread-naught by now. I gotta say in my 4 years of being an active member on these forums, this thread takes the cake. 1/2 dozen characters trying to force CCP into making concessions as to how the Forum Rules should be interpreted and how moderation should be conducted. Looking to gain control or extract revenge by constantly posting very debatable and easily dismissed fail examples of 'Unjustified Moderation'.
I see people commenting in frustration of moderation all over, not just here. Twitter, other forums, in game. I think the recent "crisis" and people posting all over these boards are sufficient evidence of that. Just because this thread is only a minor "threadnaught" 17 pages instead of hundreds? Doesn't mean there isn't an issue here.
Its good that CCL has two die-hard fans though, I am sure you and Cutter are much appreciated.
DeMichael Crimson wrote: I came to this thread and posted my viewpoint to CCP, ISD and CCL which was immediately attacked by other players. I don't want to stay in this thread so now I ask everyone, please stop directing replies towards me so I can stay away from this thread.
Perhaps they were offended by your posts? You are dismissive here as you were earlier. It's actually rather insulting. I try to keep polite in spite that. Others may not have.
Anyway I'll let you go as you want to leave this thread.
Fly safe!
|
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 00:52:00 -
[365] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
There isn't. We've gone 17 pages and what was your last comment about? Shirts. We have gone 17 pages to precisely no-where.
If CLL wants further input here is I suggest cleaning up the thread and subsummizing the best poster statements in a Q & A style at the beginning of the thread (as noneone wants to read 17 pages before posting here). NoisyGamer articel in eve news show what i mean
Nosy Gamer: Interview with CCP Sreegs GÇô The $175,000 Faction Warfare Exploit
NoisyGamer wrote:
As is his custom after publishing dev blogs CCP Sreegs hung around and answered questions on the Eve Online forums. Since a lot of people refuse (for very good reasons) to visit the official forums, I have extracted the best of the questions and answers from the first few hours of the thread. Having put this together, I think it reads like a press conference. Hopefully this will give some greater insight into CCPGÇÖs response. Enjoy!
|
Daltzi
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 06:15:00 -
[366] - Quote
After selling Multiple characters numerous time on a single thread with each character for sale, stating that he or she is for sale Ive just run into an ISD commenting on my thread. I am sure that they are just trying to do what they think is right but i am kind of flustered as to how all of a sudden after 3 years selling multiple characters with no issues popping up the new ISD influx is in my opinion "trying to hard" I reiterate i am not one to complain that much but I do try to avoid straying off the beaten path & do my best NOT to break rules
example #1 On 2 Nyx sitters I have currently on market Linked here Soley for Example
Nyx sitter 1 has made the for sale thread and immediately afterwards in the 2nd post Nyx sitter #2 Confirms he is for sale as well, I am sure that if each individual character up for sale confirms that he or she is for sale that is conforming to the rules,
example #2
If that is frowned upon I'm sure that the other People that pay FOR THIS GAME WITH REAL MONEY will have to resort to making multiple threads for every single character they are putting up for sale, I am almost certain that most other pod pilots DO NOT want to see multiple threads up for every single character taking up an entire page or 2 on the character bazaar as there are 30 threads per page
Yes there are those of us that make our isk training up Multiple characters for sale, I myself have 10 accounts active while a few are not active
CCP please give Us your PAYING CUSTOMERS the option to to sell multiple characters on a single thread As long as every single character for sale CONFIRMS he or she is for sale as well?
I like this game and I am sure that i am Not the only one thinking about the potential hassle selling multiple characters taking up a page or 2 can do PLEASE DON'T KICK SAND in the eyes of your Loyal Paying customers
CCP please give Us your PAYING CUSTOMERS the option to to sell multiple characters on a single thread As long as every single character for sale CONFIRMS he or she is for sale as well?
|
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
123
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 08:15:00 -
[367] - Quote
No promises here, but i will discuss this with them Daltzi. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
None ofthe Above
292
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 13:55:00 -
[368] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:No promises here, but i will discuss this with them Daltzi.
Okay.... I give up. A little moderation of the moderation? CCP & CCL please reply to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432
|
Armtoe
DOUBLE IDENTITY Fatal Ascension
177
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 15:50:00 -
[369] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Rer Eirikr wrote:Oh hey look, we're having a discourse about the ISD and forum moderation. Was that so hard? Having forum moderation is great, it streamlines discussion and gets rid of (most) of the badposting/spam. However, the line between moderation and outright censorship is a dangerous one, and sometimes I've seen sincerely legitimate threads, with actual discussion about EVE, be locked for rather odd reasons. One of the most prominent is seeing word "Jew" edited out,even if the word isn't being used in a negative connotation or with any hatred/anger behind it. If this is offensive to some, or against CCP's forum rules, then so be it, but things like this need to be clearly defined for all parties, and defined in a way that doesn't just seem robotic. (IE: Thread Locked, Generic Reason, Don't Try Contacting Me) Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.
Finally! Its good to see CCP stand up for civility and decency on their forums. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:02:00 -
[370] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I think this thread has pretty much come to a shuddering halt now. It's all a matter of waiting and seeing if there's improvement. There isn't. We've gone 17 pages and what was your last comment about? Shirts. We have gone 17 pages to precisely no-where. Oh by all means have this thread locked. That would solve all the problems. Honestly a much bigger part of this thread than discussion of shirts, has been two people trying to overwhelm and dismiss as irrelevant the concerns of many others. While I am interested in valid discussion and your counterpoints, I find your attempts to squelch the conversation transparent and counterproductive. I suggest you re-examine what I said carefully. I am not trying to have the thread locked, nor am I attempting to squelch the conversation. I am merely pointing out that at the moment the conversation seems to have gotten stuck in a loop, thus it is not progressing, thus it is not really a discussion but merely a cyclical argument. And as far as I can tell, and I have been keeping a very close eye on this thread as well as participating, no-one is trying to dismiss peoples concerns, it is just that now that we know what peoples concerns are, there is no need to constantly repeat them. What we need is to draw up a concise list of issues that CCP and the ISD can assess and address, something we have so far failed to do because too many people are content with said cyclical argument.
That's where all discussions (bar a few) on the forums end up, in circles. You say no one is dismissing peeps concerns but last time I looked you where ignoring mine and others as empty rants at CCP (even though it was those actions that started this thread)
This thread need to stay as a continuing dialogue with ISD anyway's.
I also think ISD have already changed tack, lot less locking going on, threads I would have expected to be locked arn't.
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
744
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:14:00 -
[371] - Quote
Rats wrote:
That's where all discussions (bar a few) on the forums end up, in circles. You say no one is dismissing peeps concerns but last time I looked you where ignoring mine and others as empty rants at CCP (even though it was those actions that started this thread)
This thread need to stay as a continuing dialogue with ISD anyway's.
I also think ISD have already changed tack, lot less locking going on, threads I would have expected to be locked arn't.
Tal
I have ignored no-one, in fact I have been paying close attention to those people who are making suggestions for changes. The people I tend to end up dismissing are those who just keep reiterating what the initial problem was. If you care to take a look at some of my other posts elsewhere on the forums, you would see that I had actually held Ruby up as an example of someone who had gone from empty ranting, to contributing.
You may also note the suggestion I made in that post of mine you quoted, where I pointed out that what we need people to do now is make a distinct list of their grievances along with possible changes to address those grievances. How can you or anyone else expect CCP or the ISD to comment in here, when there is still nothing concrete for them to work from? Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:31:00 -
[372] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Rats wrote:
That's where all discussions (bar a few) on the forums end up, in circles. You say no one is dismissing peeps concerns but last time I looked you where ignoring mine and others as empty rants at CCP (even though it was those actions that started this thread)
This thread need to stay as a continuing dialogue with ISD anyway's.
I also think ISD have already changed tack, lot less locking going on, threads I would have expected to be locked arn't.
Tal
I have ignored no-one, in fact I have been paying close attention to those people who are making suggestions for changes. The people I tend to end up dismissing are those who just keep reiterating what the initial problem was. If you care to take a look at some of my other posts elsewhere on the forums, you would see that I had actually held Ruby up as an example of someone who had gone from empty ranting, to contributing. You may also note the suggestion I made in that post of mine you quoted, where I pointed out that what we need people to do now is make a distinct list of their grievances along with possible changes to address those grievances. How can you or anyone else expect CCP or the ISD to comment in here, when there is still nothing concrete for them to work from?
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
744
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:35:00 -
[373] - Quote
Did your browser just eat your post? Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:40:00 -
[374] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did your browser just eat your post?
It does often grrrrr
Tal
p.s its bottom of previous page. -áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
744
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:42:00 -
[375] - Quote
Rats wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did your browser just eat your post? It does often grrrrr Tal
Google Chrome by any chance? Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:43:00 -
[376] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Rats wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did your browser just eat your post? It does often grrrrr Tal Google Chrome by any chance?
Yep
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
744
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:48:00 -
[377] - Quote
Rats wrote:
As I mentioned they have already changed there habits (in my opinion)
I don't believe they need a long list from the player base, 3 words "common sense" and "communication" that's it, that's all they need.
It looks like common sense is already being applied and communication has been addressed with this thread.
Tal
P.S You can complain about an issue without supplying a fix, that's their job. Doesn't mean the complaint isn't valid.
Ah I see you retrieved it, good.
Yes, you may be right, maybe the staff have changed their habits, or maybe its just that less people are trashing the forums left right and centre and are now posting in just a few places, meaning less obvious instances of moderation? Though I do agree, things on both sides appear to be changing.
As for the list, if a customer has a complaint and wishes it solved, they must first be prepared to list those complaints in a well organised fashion, and as for adding suggestions for fixes well, that seems to be the attitude amongst most people who invest time and money in to something. They like to feel a part of things, and suggesting possible fixes is a part of that. Wouldn't you agree?
After all, we are supposed to be a community, that's what everyone keeps repeating in their complaints right? We are a community, respect the community, listen to the community? What sort of a community doesn't try to help fix itself if they think something is broken? Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
132
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 00:30:00 -
[378] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Hmmm, I will pass this on to the right people first thing in the morning.
Apologies for this, but do you have any news relating to this? |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
76
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 11:46:00 -
[379] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:RAP ACTION HERO wrote:in da dmc zone, spam report button enough and a few will hit. Don't know what your problem is but you've been stalking me in quite a few different threads. Seems you're bound and determined to dance the tango with me.
You realize you broke forums rule here, right?
There is no worse self-righteousness than that of moral hypocrite who exclaims and calls for the rules, and is unable to follow them himself. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Mallak Azaria
272
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 14:49:00 -
[380] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:RAP ACTION HERO wrote:in da dmc zone, spam report button enough and a few will hit. Don't know what your problem is but you've been stalking me in quite a few different threads. Seems you're bound and determined to dance the tango with me. You realize you broke forums rule here, right?
I really wouldn't bother trying to mention it to him. We've already discovered that he suffers from a very extreme case of the Backfire Effect. |
|
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 20:45:00 -
[381] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:RAP ACTION HERO wrote:in da dmc zone, spam report button enough and a few will hit. Don't know what your problem is but you've been stalking me in quite a few different threads. Seems you're bound and determined to dance the tango with me. You realize you broke forums rule here, right? I really wouldn't bother trying to mention it to him. We've already discovered that he suffers from a very extreme case of the Backfire Effect.
What worries me is that his continued and repeated violations of the rules are:
1) Always accompanied with a clamor for the enforcement of rules.
2) Supported by CCP employees.
In effect, his continued presence without the enforcement of the rules essentially means that CCP's position is that people can violate forum rules repeatedly as long as they do so in expressing positions sympathetic to CCP employees. Someone needs to officially tell him I have raised him and his behavior twice in petitions with no apparent action or even acknowledgement from CCP.
It is a case in point of the "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" issue.
On another note, I actually have seen an improvement on the moderation decisions and style of even the worse offenders. This is a good thing.
So one good and one bad. C'est la vie. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
949
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 22:13:00 -
[382] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:...
It is a case in point of the "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" issue. ... C'est la vie. Only English on these forums.
I too have noticed an improvement, especially with the more descriptive statements when a post is edited. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 23:43:00 -
[383] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:...
It is a case in point of the "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" issue. ... C'est la vie. Only English on these forums. I too have noticed an improvement, especially with the more descriptive statements when a post is edited.
Indeed. I even gave a like to the ISD I was hating on before, because, well, he did it right. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
ShipToaster
169
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 01:46:00 -
[384] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1580771#post1580771
Time for ISD to gtf and this sums it up for me. Begin |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 02:07:00 -
[385] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1580771#post1580771
Time for ISD to gtf and this sums it up for me.
They shot Grandpa Bill! -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
950
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 02:12:00 -
[386] - Quote
To be fair, the post was off topic.
In character, but still off topic. Next time, he should try to include an on topic message in his awesome character posting. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 02:15:00 -
[387] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:To be fair, the post was off topic.
In character, but still off topic. Next time, he should try to include an on topic message in his awesome character posting.
Isn't crossposting against the rules too? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
951
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 02:18:00 -
[388] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:To be fair, the post was off topic.
In character, but still off topic. Next time, he should try to include an on topic message in his awesome character posting. Isn't crossposting against the rules too?
I'm not perfect. |
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
185
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 02:55:00 -
[389] - Quote
Every post Granpa Bill has ever posted is off topic. I guess that's my biggest issue with this cowboy diplomacy. If the rules are indeterminant, then there will always inconsistent enforcement and the potential for bias. If you're unlucky enough to walk into the CCL line of fire, too bad. Sorry Bill.
There are so many negative influences in these forums and what are the CCLs worried about? A harmless troll who entertains consistently.
But who needs player-generated content on the forums? We've got rules. So I'd suggest you guys delete every post Grandpa Bill posts from now on. They'll all be off topic.
Yee-haw! You got a nudder un Tyrozan!
Mount it on da hood!
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
88
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 21:57:00 -
[390] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Every post Granpa Bill has ever posted is off topic. I guess that's my biggest issue with this cowboy diplomacy. If the rules are indeterminant, then there will always inconsistent enforcement and the potential for bias. If you're unlucky enough to walk into the CCL line of fire, too bad. Sorry Bill.
There are so many negative influences in these forums and what are the CCLs worried about? A harmless troll who entertains consistently.
But who needs player-generated content on the forums? We've got rules. So I'd suggest you guys delete every post Grandpa Bill posts from now on. They'll all be off topic.
Yee-haw! You got a nudder un Tyrozan!
Mount it on da hood!
YK
Yeah, this is what CCP doesn't seem to get when it got defensive with "we cannot enforce everything" - ok, fair enough, but when you enforce, don't mess with Gramps.
Also, going off topic in an unofficial GD thread should be less harmful (therefore, less enforced) than in other topic areas. I can understand strict enforcement in Features and Ideas, but in GD?
Its all about nuance and not being bulls in china shops. Even the most hardnosed cop will let you off the hook if you are funny enough. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
Anhenka
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 02:48:00 -
[391] - Quote
Are ISD members able to delete posts as well as simply lock threads?
Saw one thread locked for "Excessive bumping" where the guy had bumped like clockwork, once every 24 hours, never on the same eve day.
The OP was the only person posting for the entire page, but that's just cause he sucked at selling and nobody posted on his thread.
Not the only one like this locked I have seen recently either.
would be explainable if the ISD member deleted all the posts besides the one per day, but I never knew they could selectively cherry pick out posts and delete them. Can they? |
None ofthe Above
299
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 03:02:00 -
[392] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Are ISD members able to delete posts as well as simply lock threads?
Saw one thread locked for "Excessive bumping" where the guy had bumped like clockwork, once every 24 hours, never on the same eve day.
The OP was the only person posting for the entire page, but that's just cause he sucked at selling and nobody posted on his thread.
Not the only one like this locked I have seen recently either.
would be explainable if the ISD member deleted all the posts besides the one per day, but I never knew they could selectively cherry pick out posts and delete them. Can they?
Yes, they very definitely can.
You can use http://eve-search.com/ if you like to compare. Eve-search runs a mirror on the forums. It is not perfect but usually captures things before they get moderated. A little moderation of the moderation? CCP & CCL please reply to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 15:29:00 -
[393] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. The CCL have been set up to assist the Community team in talking to players, assisting them with queries and moderating the forums to ensure that EVE related discussions remain on-topic in a relatively calm environment.
Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering. Okay, I've been fairly layed back about all this, however, I'm going to be critical now.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1586447#post1586447
I've been "bumping" my service posting the same way for nearly a year - once a day (usually when I get to work) - and now suddenly it's being locked for 'excessive' bumping?
Or is this simply more of a "you're competing against another 'prefered' service provider" stealth service nerf ??
Or is this simply a case of ISD not knowing what a once/day bump actually is?
/off critcal posting HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
962
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 16:46:00 -
[394] - Quote
Its a case of you being told to stop and you didn't. You just kept on going.
You could have tried to make your case then, instead you bumped on. You deserve it. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 16:57:00 -
[395] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Its a case of you being told to stop and you didn't. You just kept on going.
You could have tried to make your case then, instead you bumped on. You deserve it. I was asked to use "complete" sentences. Learn to read. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
97
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 18:54:00 -
[396] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Its a case of you being told to stop and you didn't. You just kept on going.
You could have tried to make your case then, instead you bumped on. You deserve it. I was asked to use "complete" sentences. Learn to read.
Which you didn't do, at least not in spirit.
Also the two posts before the (24h) lock were not 24 hours apart:
2012.07.04 19:23
2012.07.05 15:05
so it was righteous, and not excessive (ie not a forever lock). Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 19:07:00 -
[397] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Which you didn't do, at least not in spirit.
Right now - go to the Buy/Sell threads and tell me how many service / sell order posts, that have been up for multiple days, do you see that only use the word "bump" to bring them to the top - that do not get warnings / bans or locks?
I could care less if a person uses a "bump" or "bring up my post" or some long-winded sentence that accomplishes the same thing. ISD Stensson wanted me to use more than "Bump", so I did - and he even liked a couple of my posts for it!
Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Also the two posts before the (24h) lock were not 24 hours apart:
2012.07.04 19:23
2012.07.05 15:05
so it was righteous, and not excessive (ie not a forever lock).
Since it seems that so many people do not understand the bumping rules, I leave you with the official Thread bumping guide.
And I quote from the end of that post:
CCP Spitfire wrote: Please note:
Starting a topic at 23:58 Bumping the topic at 23:59 AND Bumping the topic at 00:01 are all allowed.
Therefore, I am in perfect compliance with the thread bumping rules - they are once per DAY, not once per 24 hours. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
97
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 19:32:00 -
[398] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Which you didn't do, at least not in spirit.
Right now - go to the Buy/Sell threads and tell me how many service / sell order posts, that have been up for multiple days, do you see that only use the word "bump" to bring them to the top - that do not get warnings / bans or locks? I could care less if a person uses a "bump" or "bring up my post" or some long-winded sentence that accomplishes the same thing. ISD Stensson wanted me to use more than "Bump", so I did - and he even liked a couple of my posts for it!
Do you understand the difference between spirit and word? You basically mocked the ISD. You trolled and got trolled back. And you expect sympathy and support in your butthurt after basically asking for it. Yes the ISD should get a sense of humor etc, but we also need to do our part and not be total asses.
Infinite Force wrote:CCP Spitfire wrote: Please note:
Starting a topic at 23:58 Bumping the topic at 23:59 AND Bumping the topic at 00:01 are all allowed.
Therefore, I am in perfect compliance with the thread bumping rules - they are once per DAY, not once per 24 hours.
This is true, I apologize.
Infinite Force wrote: Now, CCP / ISD, I ask you, politely, to unlock my post.
Thanks!
Open a petition. The rules are indeed explicit about this. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 19:50:00 -
[399] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Do you understand the difference between spirit and word? You basically mocked the ISD. You trolled and got trolled back. And you expect sympathy and support in your butthurt after basically asking for it. Yes the ISD should get a sense of humor etc, but we also need to do our part and not be total asses. I completely understand. I didn't get hurt and wasn't mocking (okay, maybe a little miffed at first, but I can adapt and deal with it). I've been bumping my post for longer than most, so it naturally should get a little more scrutiny. Not a big deal really.
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Infinite Force wrote:...once per DAY, not once per 24 hours. This is true, I apologize. Infinite Force wrote:Now, CCP / ISD, I ask you, politely, to unlock my post. Open a petition. The rules are indeed explicit about this. This was my whole point - only to remind people what the rules are and to show that they are not being followed - due to lack of understanding or just flat out ignorance, I don't know.
I've been considering petitioning it all day. Since I kind of got a free 'bump' from ISD, I just haven't done it yet, but I'l do it now. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
969
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 23:14:00 -
[400] - Quote
I also apologize, I was a little quick on that (nor aware of the policy for that area of the forums).
Fortunately, it was only a 24 hour lock... |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
265
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 23:43:00 -
[401] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Which you didn't do, at least not in spirit.
Right now - go to the Buy/Sell threads and tell me how many service / sell order posts, that have been up for multiple days, do you see that only use the word "bump" to bring them to the top - that do not get warnings / bans or locks? I could care less if a person uses a "bump" or "bring up my post" or some long-winded sentence that accomplishes the same thing. ISD Stensson wanted me to use more than "Bump", so I did - and he even liked a couple of my posts for it! Do you understand the difference between spirit and word? You basically mocked the ISD. You trolled and got trolled back. And you expect sympathy and support in your butthurt after basically asking for it. Yes the ISD should get a sense of humor etc, but we also need to do our part and not be total asses.
He was asked to bump in a sentence. The example sentence is "Auction Still Up," which shows how detailed the sentence must be.
He clearly passed the hurdle of being that informative after being told to shape up. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 10:34:00 -
[402] - Quote
I see common sense is still a work in progress ...
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3474
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 11:21:00 -
[403] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. The CCL have been set up to assist the Community team in talking to players, assisting them with queries and moderating the forums to ensure that EVE related discussions remain on-topic in a relatively calm environment.
Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering. Okay, I've been fairly layed back about all this, however, I'm going to be critical now. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1586447#post1586447I've been "bumping" my service posting the same way for nearly a year - once a day (usually when I get to work) - and now suddenly it's being locked for 'excessive' bumping? Or is this simply more of a "you're competing against another 'prefered' service provider" stealth service nerf ?? Or is this simply a case of ISD not knowing what a once/day bump actually is? /off critical posting Yeah, I agree that was uncalled for. I see nothing wrong with a vendor advertising their service once every 24 hours, especially in the 'Sell Orders' sub forum. Guess you could always meta-game it and alternate with alt characters posting good referrals and or asking questions about the service.
I think the problem is that the forum mods are now afraid to do their job where it's most needed, here in General Discussion. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
989
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 03:20:00 -
[404] - Quote
Gotta appreciate the ISDs patience a little bit ago. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
276
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 04:03:00 -
[405] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Gotta appreciate the ISDs patience a little bit ago.
What was happening? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 22:49:00 -
[406] - Quote
Hi. Been away because *Alaska*.
Havn't really seen progress beyond what we discussed those first 48 hours + the apologies and promise to change from ISD.
I have not seen any of those promises followed through with actions or any further elaboration on policy.
Are they at least enforcing things more consistently?
CCP, have you taken a position on what you want this community to be?
"Could I request that ISD please lock my shirt into my trousers?" --áLilliana Stelles 2012.06.25 Never forget. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 02:02:00 -
[407] - Quote
Would it be possible to create a forum section, much like the CSMs section. That would contain a copy of, or the locked post itself. Where we could then upvote or downvote the moderators actions?
"Could I request that ISD please lock my shirt into my trousers?" --áLilliana Stelles 2012.06.25 Never forget. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
992
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 02:47:00 -
[408] - Quote
Jason Auralis wrote:Would it be possible to create a forum section, much like the CSMs section. That would contain a copy of, or the locked post itself. Where we could then upvote or downvote the moderators actions?
Unfortunately, that would be abused by trolls, which the forum has plenty of. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 02:54:00 -
[409] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Jason Auralis wrote:Would it be possible to create a forum section, much like the CSMs section. That would contain a copy of, or the locked post itself. Where we could then upvote or downvote the moderators actions?
Unfortunately, that would be abused by trolls, which the forum has plenty of.
I think that with the simple "Yes this mod did a good job. fair, and just given the tone of the community." "No, I dont think this mod acted correctly"
But yes. Trolls. =\ always trolls.
"Could I request that ISD please lock my shirt into my trousers?" --áLilliana Stelles 2012.06.25 Never forget. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
288
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 02:56:00 -
[410] - Quote
So, ISD Barstorlode, while I appreciate the fact that you're trying do something to interact with the community, white knighting CCP is not the best way to do it. In fact, it only serves to anger and insult the players eagerly waiting for the promised DevBlog (as it clearly did*), while not adding anything constructive to the conversation (in fact, derailing the conversation entirely)**. When you make comments like that without any input from above (if you had input, you would have been able to give some details on timing), and are clearly being glib, you fall right into rumor.
If CCP wants to strictly enforce all 30 of it's forum rules (30 is a big number), then the people representing it should hold themselves to following all 30 rules. If CCP doesn't want to strictly enforce all of its rules, it should strip the ones it doesn't like out.
Being funny is fine, Barstorlode, but trying to do so while WhiteKnighting for CCP (help that they usually don't need), especially under an official title, smacks of Glibness and annoys the hell out of people (as you saw).
Finally, saying that people calling you out for bad posting under color of ISDness is uncalled for is ridiculous(especially when you try to get the last word in a thread you ran off the rails). When you badpost, you get called out on it. If you don't want to get called out for badposting, well then, don't badpost.
On a more general note, I'm seeing a disturbing return to the ISD crew acting as WhiteKnights for CCP and largely ignoring nastiness directed between players.
*"7. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums."
**"20. Post constructively. Posts that are not constructive, insulting or rude may be deleted, no matter how valid the ideas behind them may be."
***"30. Rumor threads and posts Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. Players who engage in these type of threads can expect to receive a warning and ban."
****Directing comments here as instructed https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1599219#post1599219 -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
992
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 03:05:00 -
[411] - Quote
That wasn't Whiteknighting. That was telling us to be patient and that the Dev blog is coming soon. And if it ends up coming within the week, everyone in that thread better issue a public apology.
What he posted was constructive, and on topic. And it was not a rumor (for Dev blogs are always coming Soon).
The only possible thing he might be guilty of is trolling, but we can't know that until the Dev Blog does not come out Soon.
Edit: sorry Ruby, you didn't deserve that last bit...
Edit2: adding on
If other people derail a thread because they can't get over themselves, it isn't the posters fault. The ISD did nothing wrong (other than maybe not being clear that he was trying to encourage, rather than potentially sound trolly). |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
288
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 04:11:00 -
[412] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:That wasn't Whiteknighting. That was telling us to be patient and that the Dev blog is coming soon. And if it ends up coming within the week, everyone in that thread better issue a public apology.
What he posted was constructive, and on topic. And it was not a rumor (for Dev blogs are always coming Soon).
The only possible thing he might be guilty of is trolling, but we can't know that until the Dev Blog does not come out Soon.
Edit: sorry Ruby, you didn't deserve that last bit...
Edit2: adding on
If other people derail a thread because they can't get over themselves, it isn't the posters fault. The ISD did nothing wrong (other than maybe not being clear that he was trying to encourage, rather than potentially sound trolly).
[sigh] Now I have to look it up on EvEsearch. (You Ninja'd the Edit in before Chribba, you sly fox)
Anyway, the reason for the thread was that a promised Devblog (which IIRC was promised with a timeframe [silly, I know]) was being delayed.
Looking at it from the perspective of people who are keen on hearing about the issue and worked up over it, telling them SoonGäó with no new timeline and a condescending "You've been waiting for a week+, so checking in is being impatient" is pretty clearly going to stir up trouble.
The better option as an ISD would have been to sit down, resist the urge to post, fire off a mail to the pertinent CCP, and either post "I sent X a mail about it, and hope to get a timeline or progress report/but they're on vacation/but they're dangling over lava in Dr. Evil's lair, and I'm sorry for the delay" or not posted anything until you get return correspondence with a progress report/timeline/link to devblog.
It's not the Match's fault the powderkeg explodes when you stick the match in, it's the powder. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Dio Chrysostom
8 Bit Redux
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 06:56:00 -
[413] - Quote
Just remember guys just like you banned those speaking out during the jita protests a few months ago you guys can silence any voices that don't agree with your profit model or way of creating the game. but in the end you don't silence the unrest and the player base that you know has been dwindling due to poor decisions over the past few expansions. I wonder if this comment will get moderated ? I wonder if I didn't agree with CCP enough ? or maybe their judgement is that I am off topic because they don't like what I am saying. Either way you can give us a history on your forum thugs/player base laison's all you want but as long as you keep locking topics people will know what is really going on. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
995
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 14:42:00 -
[414] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:That wasn't Whiteknighting. That was telling us to be patient and that the Dev blog is coming soon. And if it ends up coming within the week, everyone in that thread better issue a public apology.
What he posted was constructive, and on topic. And it was not a rumor (for Dev blogs are always coming Soon).
The only possible thing he might be guilty of is trolling, but we can't know that until the Dev Blog does not come out Soon.
Edit: sorry Ruby, you didn't deserve that last bit...
Edit2: adding on
If other people derail a thread because they can't get over themselves, it isn't the posters fault. The ISD did nothing wrong (other than maybe not being clear that he was trying to encourage, rather than potentially sound trolly). [sigh] Now I have to look it up on EvEsearch. (You Ninja'd the Edit in before Chribba, you sly fox) Anyway, the reason for the thread was that a promised Devblog (which IIRC was promised with a timeframe [silly, I know]) was being delayed. Looking at it from the perspective of people who are keen on hearing about the issue and worked up over it, telling them SoonGäó with no new timeline and a condescending "You've been waiting for a week+, so checking in is being impatient" is pretty clearly going to stir up trouble. The better option as an ISD would have been to sit down, resist the urge to post, fire off a mail to the pertinent CCP, and either post "I sent X a mail about it, and hope to get a timeline or progress report/but they're on vacation/but they're dangling over lava in Dr. Evil's lair, and I'm sorry for the delay" or not posted anything until you get return correspondence with a progress report/timeline/link to devblog. It's not the Match's fault the powderkeg explodes when you stick the match in, it's the powder. I agree that would have been a much better way of handling it. However, the reaction of the posters was still uncalled for. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
321
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 18:49:00 -
[415] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:That wasn't Whiteknighting. That was telling us to be patient and that the Dev blog is coming soon. And if it ends up coming within the week, everyone in that thread better issue a public apology.
What he posted was constructive, and on topic. And it was not a rumor (for Dev blogs are always coming Soon).
The only possible thing he might be guilty of is trolling, but we can't know that until the Dev Blog does not come out Soon.
Edit: sorry Ruby, you didn't deserve that last bit...
Edit2: adding on
If other people derail a thread because they can't get over themselves, it isn't the posters fault. The ISD did nothing wrong (other than maybe not being clear that he was trying to encourage, rather than potentially sound trolly). [sigh] Now I have to look it up on EvEsearch. (You Ninja'd the Edit in before Chribba, you sly fox) Anyway, the reason for the thread was that a promised Devblog (which IIRC was promised with a timeframe [silly, I know]) was being delayed. Looking at it from the perspective of people who are keen on hearing about the issue and worked up over it, telling them SoonGäó with no new timeline and a condescending "You've been waiting for a week+, so checking in is being impatient" is pretty clearly going to stir up trouble. The better option as an ISD would have been to sit down, resist the urge to post, fire off a mail to the pertinent CCP, and either post "I sent X a mail about it, and hope to get a timeline or progress report/but they're on vacation/but they're dangling over lava in Dr. Evil's lair, and I'm sorry for the delay" or not posted anything until you get return correspondence with a progress report/timeline/link to devblog. It's not the Match's fault the powderkeg explodes when you stick the match in, it's the powder. I agree that would have been a much better way of handling it. However, the reaction of the posters was still uncalled for.
It may have been over the top, but when you're annoyed at a company and their representative fumbles the ball trying to placate you (with, "doodz, you're being impatient, everything's fine"), there's a good chance that that's exactly what's going to happen.
When you have a powderkeg, you don't go sticking matches into it (even a small one like that thread). -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
None ofthe Above
300
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 20:56:00 -
[416] - Quote
I wonder when it will be realized that closing a thread because it's gone off topic, the trolls have come out, etc, is a bad idea?
Also would recommend that an ISD should probably not be the one to deal with attacks on himself, should probably bring in another ISD for at least patina of protection against the accusation of conflict of interest.
If I where the mod for that thread we are discussing re: devblogs, I would have deleted every attack and the ISDs comment and left it open (based on current policies anyway). Maybe with a note here or somesuch.
Anyway, ISD please revisit your policies. There is room for improvement, and hopefully there is time before irreparable damage is done in your relationship with the community. A little moderation of the moderation? CCP & CCL please reply to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1552432#post1552432
|
Alayna Le'line
6
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 10:01:00 -
[417] - Quote
It seems that instead of locking threads they've resorted to just butchering the contents of anything deemed "offensive" or "trolling". This has, in quite a few cases, lead to OPs that are partially or just entirely unreadable as stuff is just cut without replacing it. Furthermore often the OP is quoted quite a few times further down the thread and left unchanged there.
From such a few quoted OPs it seems that expressing a strong opinion is considered trolling by some moderators, this to me either rings as if said person had a stake in the discussion or is simply overzealous (I'm inclined to go with the latter). While it could be argued that an entire post is trolling or not cutting out parts isn't the solution, it can change the message the poster wanted to bring across and entirely derail the discussion due to extra misunderstandings created this way. Either lock it or leave it alone and if in doubt: leave it alone.
Selectively censoring parts of a post is NOT the way to go.
The thing I liked about these forums (and this game in general) as a relatively new player is how people could express the dumbest (and that is an opinion, of course, I'm sure the posters thought differently) opinions without being cracked down on by the censoring police that forum moderators on other games' boards tend to be. A serious breath of fresh air.
If you want to turn these forums into "fluffy ponies and rainbows"-land I'm afraid you're making the wrong game or creating a huge disconnect between the forums and the game.
Yours respectfully,
Al |
|
CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
1557
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 10:40:00 -
[418] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:So, ISD Barstorlode, while I appreciate the fact that you're trying do something to interact with the community, white knighting CCP is not the best way to do it. In fact, it only serves to anger and insult the players eagerly waiting for the promised DevBlog (as it clearly did*), while not adding anything constructive to the conversation (in fact, derailing the conversation entirely)**. When you make comments like that without any input from above (if you had input, you would have been able to give some details on timing), and are clearly being glib, you fall right into rumor.
Just chiming in with a few comments. First of all, we will have dev blogs coming soon, but right now (with summer being what it is) some people are on vacation, which obviously affects the dev blog publication schedule. Unfortunately, I can't give you any exact dates right now, and neither can ISD. Furthermore, to be honest, I don't see any whiteknighting here. While the joke in question may or may not have been actually funny, it is not a reason to derail the thread and insult other players and volunteers.
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
|
Ruger Cynbal
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 12:50:00 -
[419] - Quote
CCP Spitfire wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:So, ISD Barstorlode, while I appreciate the fact that you're trying do something to interact with the community, white knighting CCP is not the best way to do it. In fact, it only serves to anger and insult the players eagerly waiting for the promised DevBlog (as it clearly did*), while not adding anything constructive to the conversation (in fact, derailing the conversation entirely)**. When you make comments like that without any input from above (if you had input, you would have been able to give some details on timing), and are clearly being glib, you fall right into rumor.
Just chiming in with a few comments. First of all, we will have dev blogs coming soon, but right now (with summer being what it is) some people are on vacation, which obviously affects the dev blog publication schedule. Unfortunately, I can't give you any exact dates right now, and neither can ISD. Furthermore, to be honest, I don't see any whiteknighting here. While the joke in question may or may not have been actually funny, it is not a reason to derail the thread and insult other players and volunteers.
I appreciate the update. You have to understand that without confirmations like this we have no way of knowing if you (CCP) is listening. Id love to say we can all assume you take some interest in what the community is saying but your actions have proven over and over again that you would rather have a wall between yourselves and the community.
It would go along ways to have a random dev post anytime they checked a big issue thread. We need to rebuild our confidence, and we cant do that if you are constantly hiding behind devblog schedules. For what they are, they still feel very distant.
Having said that. Let me reiterate that I (and I hope alot more) appreciate this update. Definitely-ánot Jason Marshall. |
Ben Youssef Noban
Sons of the Prophet
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 14:20:00 -
[420] - Quote
Alayna Le'line wrote:It seems that instead of locking threads they've resorted to just butchering the contents of anything deemed "offensive" or "trolling". This has, in quite a few cases, lead to OPs that are partially or just entirely unreadable as stuff is just cut without replacing it. Furthermore often the OP is quoted quite a few times further down the thread and left unchanged there.
From such a few quoted OPs it seems that expressing a strong opinion is considered trolling by some moderators, this to me either rings as if said person had a stake in the discussion or is simply overzealous (I'm inclined to go with the latter). While it could be argued that an entire post is trolling or not cutting out parts isn't the solution, it can change the message the poster wanted to bring across and entirely derail the discussion due to extra misunderstandings created this way. Either lock it or leave it alone and if in doubt: leave it alone.
Selectively censoring parts of a post is NOT the way to go.
The thing I liked about these forums (and this game in general) as a relatively new player is how people could express the dumbest (and that is an opinion, of course, I'm sure the posters thought differently) opinions without being cracked down on by the censoring police that forum moderators on other games' boards tend to be. A serious breath of fresh air.
If you want to turn these forums into "fluffy ponies and rainbows"-land I'm afraid you're making the wrong game or creating a huge disconnect between the forums and the game.
Yours respectfully,
Al
It become bad though when forum for game is racist, insult, poor education, mental matters only. If post is bad it is bad and will not encourage others with adult opinions if only trolling remains.
|
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
352
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 16:53:00 -
[421] - Quote
CCP Spitfire wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:So, ISD Barstorlode, while I appreciate the fact that you're trying do something to interact with the community, white knighting CCP is not the best way to do it. In fact, it only serves to anger and insult the players eagerly waiting for the promised DevBlog (as it clearly did*), while not adding anything constructive to the conversation (in fact, derailing the conversation entirely)**. When you make comments like that without any input from above (if you had input, you would have been able to give some details on timing), and are clearly being glib, you fall right into rumor.
Just chiming in with a few comments. First of all, we will have dev blogs coming soon, but right now (with summer being what it is) some people are on vacation, which obviously affects the dev blog publication schedule. Unfortunately, I can't give you any exact dates right now, and neither can ISD. Furthermore, to be honest, I don't see any whiteknighting here. While the joke in question may or may not have been actually funny, it is not a reason to derail the thread and insult other players and volunteers.
I know you can't promise any dates, and I know the ISD can't either. That wasn't the problem in that thread. The problem is wading hip deep into annoyed people with an attempt to be funny about something they're ticked off about. While I understand the impulse to do exactly that, it's still a bad idea.
One of the first things I learned in the field was the simple truth that telling someone who's worked up to "Calm Down" never [Forum-Unfriendly Word] works. Even better, it almost always works the angry/crazy/drunk/whatever person up more. Better suggestions for this type of thread: "I hear what you're saying, and I want to help; it's just going to take some time" "I understand your concerns, and I've made sure the right people will see them" "I appreciate that you're angry, so I'll try to get you a response soon"
I know that I didn't hit the tone (or really the whole thing, I'm not particularly pleased with it, tbh ) I wanted to hit with that post, and I'm sorry for that.
I really think that some communications lessons for the ISDs would go a LONG way. There are some great products that a lot of Emergency Services agencies use because the skills they teach work wonders when you're talking to angry people, and I would guess that they'd work pretty well for a lot of this kind of moderation (the talking kind, which I applaud the ISDs for using more of). Talking to people who are worked up is not like talking to normal people. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
76
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 20:45:00 -
[422] - Quote
Most of you are correct; I didn't verbalize my intentions properly in that thread. I didn't need to say what I did, and for that I apologize. I'll be sure to post in a way that's more helpful to what people are asking in the future. I've already looked at ways to handle situations like that better, so I'll aim for those goals in future posts. Hope that helps. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Ensign Community Communication Liasions (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
357
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 21:00:00 -
[423] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Most of you are correct; I didn't verbalize my intentions properly in that thread. I didn't need to say what I did, and for that I apologize. I'll be sure to post in a way that's more helpful to what people are asking in the future. I've already looked at ways to handle situations like that better, so I'll aim for those goals in future posts. Hope that helps.
I want to apologize again for my post on the previous page, it was really cruddy of me.
I think that this thread could easily become a very good way for the ISD team to receive feedback (it'll mostly be negative, but that's a sad truth of customer service, it's ignored unless it's bad, or perceived as bad) when things go off the rails in threads destined to be locked, and I'm glad to see you're open to receiving it.
The problem, of course, if this thread evolves into that, is figuring out a way to cull rants and other nonconstructive feedback without leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
Again, I'm glad you're actively learning from your missteps, and being open about doing so. I think that openness will go a long way to building the bridge you need to build with the rest of the community to be effective here.
For my part, I'll try to keep an eye out for ISD comments that I think are deserving of positive callouts as well. I know how taxing reading a constant stream of negative comments can be. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3540
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 01:01:00 -
[424] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:That wasn't Whiteknighting. That was telling us to be patient and that the Dev blog is coming soon. And if it ends up coming within the week, everyone in that thread better issue a public apology.
What he posted was constructive, and on topic. And it was not a rumor (for Dev blogs are always coming Soon).
The only possible thing he might be guilty of is trolling, but we can't know that until the Dev Blog does not come out Soon.
Edit: sorry Ruby, you didn't deserve that last bit...
Edit2: adding on
If other people derail a thread because they can't get over themselves, it isn't the posters fault. The ISD did nothing wrong (other than maybe not being clear that he was trying to encourage, rather than potentially sound trolly). [sigh] Now I have to look it up on EvEsearch. (You Ninja'd the Edit in before Chribba, you sly fox) Anyway, the reason for the thread was that a promised Devblog (which IIRC was promised with a timeframe [silly, I know]) was being delayed. Looking at it from the perspective of people who are keen on hearing about the issue and worked up over it, telling them SoonGäó with no new timeline and a condescending "You've been waiting for a week+, so checking in is being impatient" is pretty clearly going to stir up trouble. The better option as an ISD would have been to sit down, resist the urge to post, fire off a mail to the pertinent CCP, and either post "I sent X a mail about it, and hope to get a timeline or progress report/but they're on vacation/but they're dangling over lava in Dr. Evil's lair, and I'm sorry for the delay" or not posted anything until you get return correspondence with a progress report/timeline/link to devblog. It's not the Match's fault the powderkeg explodes when you stick the match in, it's the powder. As for your analogy, some of the players posting in these forums are like old sticks of dynamite, dripping with nitro. They don't need a 'match' to go off and as such, need to be removed from the rest of the munitions within the armory asap.
From previous experience, the only players I've seen who use the term 'Whiteknighting' actually use that as an insult while posting abusive negative replies directed towards another person with an opposing viewpoint. In other words, I've seen forum trolls use that term. That type of mentality or attitude is definitely not needed in these forums, plain and simple.
Honestly, I see nothing wrong with the CCL's statements in that thread. However, the comments being posted against the CCL member was uncalled for and definitely was personal attacks. Quite frankly, I think everyone in that thread who decided to troll and attack the CCL should incur a forum ban. For too long they have been allowed to get away with that crap and it needs to be stopped now.
The CCL member has nothing to apologize for and I'm really getting tired of seeing people demand that. It's pathetic to see a select few players in this community constantly trying to find one little thing to use as leverage in an attempt to dictate and gain control of forum moderation. |
Alayna Le'line
6
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 10:08:00 -
[425] - Quote
Ben Youssef Noban wrote:Alayna Le'line wrote:It seems that instead of locking threads they've resorted to just butchering the contents of anything deemed "offensive" or "trolling". This has, in quite a few cases, lead to OPs that are partially or just entirely unreadable as stuff is just cut without replacing it. Furthermore often the OP is quoted quite a few times further down the thread and left unchanged there.
From such a few quoted OPs it seems that expressing a strong opinion is considered trolling by some moderators, this to me either rings as if said person had a stake in the discussion or is simply overzealous (I'm inclined to go with the latter). While it could be argued that an entire post is trolling or not cutting out parts isn't the solution, it can change the message the poster wanted to bring across and entirely derail the discussion due to extra misunderstandings created this way. Either lock it or leave it alone and if in doubt: leave it alone.
Selectively censoring parts of a post is NOT the way to go.
The thing I liked about these forums (and this game in general) as a relatively new player is how people could express the dumbest (and that is an opinion, of course, I'm sure the posters thought differently) opinions without being cracked down on by the censoring police that forum moderators on other games' boards tend to be. A serious breath of fresh air.
If you want to turn these forums into "fluffy ponies and rainbows"-land I'm afraid you're making the wrong game or creating a huge disconnect between the forums and the game.
Yours respectfully,
Al It become bad though when forum for game is racist, insult, poor education, mental matters only. If post is bad it is bad and will not encourage others with adult opinions if only trolling remains.
Maybe the message I was trying to bring accross wasn't clear (English is not exactly my first language). I'm not defending racist banter or other downright offensive language (though some people have just stupidly long toes when it comes to their country/race/religion, but that's neither here nor there). Although what is offensive tends to vary per person, some moderators seem to have a very low threshold.
What I am speaking out against is the censorship I've seen applied to various threads, by deleting (parts of) sentences and replacing them usually with "--snip--" (or something along those lines) seemingly without making much of an attempt at conserving the readability of the post. In quite a few cases this censorship was entirely unjustified (if I felt it was justified I wouldn't bother posting here, obviously) and downright obstructive to following the discussion.
As I said before: if in doubt about something leave it alone or before we know it "consolized" will be a censored word as it is on the Steam forums. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3547
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 11:49:00 -
[426] - Quote
Alayna Le'line wrote:Ben Youssef Noban wrote:Alayna Le'line wrote:It seems that instead of locking threads they've resorted to just butchering the contents of anything deemed "offensive" or "trolling". This has, in quite a few cases, lead to OPs that are partially or just entirely unreadable as stuff is just cut without replacing it. Furthermore often the OP is quoted quite a few times further down the thread and left unchanged there.
From such a few quoted OPs it seems that expressing a strong opinion is considered trolling by some moderators, this to me either rings as if said person had a stake in the discussion or is simply overzealous (I'm inclined to go with the latter). While it could be argued that an entire post is trolling or not cutting out parts isn't the solution, it can change the message the poster wanted to bring across and entirely derail the discussion due to extra misunderstandings created this way. Either lock it or leave it alone and if in doubt: leave it alone.
Selectively censoring parts of a post is NOT the way to go.
The thing I liked about these forums (and this game in general) as a relatively new player is how people could express the dumbest (and that is an opinion, of course, I'm sure the posters thought differently) opinions without being cracked down on by the censoring police that forum moderators on other games' boards tend to be. A serious breath of fresh air.
If you want to turn these forums into "fluffy ponies and rainbows"-land I'm afraid you're making the wrong game or creating a huge disconnect between the forums and the game.
Yours respectfully,
Al It become bad though when forum for game is racist, insult, poor education, mental matters only. If post is bad it is bad and will not encourage others with adult opinions if only trolling remains. Maybe the message I was trying to bring accross wasn't clear (English is not exactly my first language). I'm not defending racist banter or other downright offensive language (though some people have just stupidly long toes when it comes to their country/race/religion, but that's neither here nor there). Although what is offensive tends to vary per person, some moderators seem to have a very low threshold. What I am speaking out against is the censorship I've seen applied to various threads, by deleting (parts of) sentences and replacing them usually with "--snip--" (or something along those lines) seemingly without making much of an attempt at conserving the readability of the post. In quite a few cases this censorship was entirely unjustified (if I felt it was justified I wouldn't bother posting here, obviously) and downright obstructive to following the discussion. As I said before: if in doubt about something leave it alone or before we know it "consolized" will be a censored word as it is on the Steam forums.
First of all, if those players had followed the forum rules their replies wouldn't have been moderated with --snip--. Secondly, leaving it alone will basically encourage others to post the same way. Thirdly, there hasn't been 'quite a few cases' of unjustified censorship.
What's unjustified is how a few select people keep trying to make a Federal Case out of a couple rare occurrences, trying to exploit it and gain control of how forum moderation should be done, more than likely to their own benefit. Rules are set in place for a reason, to establish order and act as guidelines for social interaction. Without them, there would only be Anarchy.
|
Mallak Azaria
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:17:00 -
[427] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:That wasn't Whiteknighting. That was telling us to be patient and that the Dev blog is coming soon. And if it ends up coming within the week, everyone in that thread better issue a public apology.
What he posted was constructive, and on topic. And it was not a rumor (for Dev blogs are always coming Soon).
The only possible thing he might be guilty of is trolling, but we can't know that until the Dev Blog does not come out Soon.
Edit: sorry Ruby, you didn't deserve that last bit...
Edit2: adding on
If other people derail a thread because they can't get over themselves, it isn't the posters fault. The ISD did nothing wrong (other than maybe not being clear that he was trying to encourage, rather than potentially sound trolly). [sigh] Now I have to look it up on EvEsearch. (You Ninja'd the Edit in before Chribba, you sly fox) Anyway, the reason for the thread was that a promised Devblog (which IIRC was promised with a timeframe [silly, I know]) was being delayed. Looking at it from the perspective of people who are keen on hearing about the issue and worked up over it, telling them SoonGäó with no new timeline and a condescending "You've been waiting for a week+, so checking in is being impatient" is pretty clearly going to stir up trouble. The better option as an ISD would have been to sit down, resist the urge to post, fire off a mail to the pertinent CCP, and either post "I sent X a mail about it, and hope to get a timeline or progress report/but they're on vacation/but they're dangling over lava in Dr. Evil's lair, and I'm sorry for the delay" or not posted anything until you get return correspondence with a progress report/timeline/link to devblog. It's not the Match's fault the powderkeg explodes when you stick the match in, it's the powder. As for your analogy, some of the players posting in these forums are like old sticks of dynamite, dripping with nitro. They don't need a 'match' to go off and as such, need to be removed from the rest of the munitions within the armory asap. From previous experience, the only players I've seen who use the term 'Whiteknighting' actually use that as an insult while posting abusive negative replies directed towards another person with an opposing viewpoint. In other words, I've seen forum trolls use that term. That type of mentality or attitude is definitely not needed in these forums, plain and simple. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with the CCL's statements in that thread. However, the comments being posted against the CCL member was uncalled for and definitely was personal attacks. Quite frankly, I think everyone in that thread who decided to troll and attack the CCL should incur a forum ban. For too long they have been allowed to get away with that crap and it needs to be stopped now. The CCL member has nothing to apologize for and I'm really getting tired of seeing people demand that. It's pathetic to see a select few players in this community constantly trying to find one little thing to use as leverage in an attempt to dictate and gain control of forum moderation.
Like yourself? |
Mallak Azaria
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:19:00 -
[428] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:First of all, if those players had followed the forum rules their replies wouldn't have been moderated with --snip--.
You seem to have selectively ignored the whole part about posts being snipped that weren't in violation of the forum rules. Granted that some posts were in violation, but many, many more had broken no rules whatsoever. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3551
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:55:00 -
[429] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Like yourself?
We can definitely cross reference each others forum posting history with Eve Search if you wanna pursue this. In fact I think that's a good idea, especially since you seem determined to start something with me.
Mallak Azaria wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:First of all, if those players had followed the forum rules their replies wouldn't have been moderated with --snip--.
You seem to have selectively ignored the whole part about posts being snipped that weren't in violation of the forum rules. Granted that some posts were in violation, but many, many more had broken no rules whatsoever. Got any proof to back up your allegations? I've only seen a couple rare occurrences but you and others who keep saying there's a multitude of so called 'innocent' replies being unjustly moderated is simply an exaggeration.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1008
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 13:40:00 -
[430] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:First of all, if those players had followed the forum rules their replies wouldn't have been moderated with --snip--.
You seem to have selectively ignored the whole part about posts being snipped that weren't in violation of the forum rules. Granted that some posts were in violation, but many, many more had broken no rules whatsoever. Got any proof to back up your allegations? I've only seen a couple rare occurrences but you and others who keep saying there's a multitude of so called 'innocent' replies being unjustly moderated is simply an exaggeration. Translation: I didn't see it so it doesn't happen. |
|
Quaaid
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
45
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 13:48:00 -
[431] - Quote
Either host events that let us punish the ISDs in game via warfare for their heavy handed and poorly executed moderation, or just abandon the effort entirely.
I would not mind being edited and reading through all the lame "-- snip --" garbage so long as I could find the responsible people once in awhile and shoot missiles at them.
All's fair, right? |
Lord Zim
1019
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 13:51:00 -
[432] - Quote
Again, let's not forget the fact that literally the only way of seeing the extent of the problem with deleted posts and ---snip--- ---edit--- etc would be to make meticulous records of your own posting, then regularly go through your entire posting history and note discrepancies.
If you do that, up up and away, gadget OCD boy. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1011
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 14:08:00 -
[433] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Again, let's not forget the fact that literally the only way of seeing the extent of the problem with deleted posts and ---snip--- ---edit--- etc would be to make meticulous records of your own posting, then regularly go through your entire posting history and note discrepancies.
If you do that, up up and away, gadget OCD boy. One thing I did notice is you keep likes for posts that are deleted (one of mine was in a troll thread that vanished after a few minutes). |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
368
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 19:45:00 -
[434] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Like yourself? We can definitely cross reference each others forum posting history with Eve Search if you wanna pursue this. In fact I think that's a good idea, especially since you seem determined to start something with me. Mallak Azaria wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:First of all, if those players had followed the forum rules their replies wouldn't have been moderated with --snip--.
You seem to have selectively ignored the whole part about posts being snipped that weren't in violation of the forum rules. Granted that some posts were in violation, but many, many more had broken no rules whatsoever. Got any proof to back up your allegations? I've only seen a couple rare occurrences but you and others who keep saying there's a multitude of so called 'innocent' replies being unjustly moderated is simply an exaggeration.
Ah, the Ostrich method of detecting wrongdoing.
It seems the only person trying to start something here is you. The rest of us here (CCP included) recognize that the ISD team made mistakes. Because of that recognition, they can improve their behavior, and it looks a lot like they're working on improving their behavior.
Yelling that they didn't need to change in the first place isn't constructive at this point. But hey, Authority is always right, huh. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3557
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 04:41:00 -
[435] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ah, the Ostrich method of detecting wrongdoing.
It seems the only person trying to start something here is you. The rest of us here (CCP included) recognize that the ISD team made mistakes. Because of that recognition, they can improve their behavior, and it looks a lot like they're working on improving their behavior.
Yelling that they didn't need to change in the first place isn't constructive at this point. But hey, Authority is always right, huh.
lol, you say I'm doing the Ostrich method of detecting wrongdoing?
Quite frankly, there's only been a couple rare occurrences of mistakes made by the CCL presented in this thread by a very small group of players.
Seems the one here trying to start something is you acting like Chicken Little running around yelling "The Sky Is Falling", constantly trying to incite others to join in the crusade, claiming there's been a multitude of unjustified acts of moderation committed.
|
Lord Zim
1022
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 07:28:00 -
[436] - Quote
Where there is smoke, there is usually also fire. vOv |
Mallak Azaria
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 11:19:00 -
[437] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Like yourself? We can definitely cross reference each others forum posting history with Eve Search if you wanna pursue this. In fact I think that's a good idea, especially since you seem determined to start something with me. Mallak Azaria wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:First of all, if those players had followed the forum rules their replies wouldn't have been moderated with --snip--.
You seem to have selectively ignored the whole part about posts being snipped that weren't in violation of the forum rules. Granted that some posts were in violation, but many, many more had broken no rules whatsoever. Got any proof to back up your allegations? I've only seen a couple rare occurrences but you and others who keep saying there's a multitude of so called 'innocent' replies being unjustly moderated is simply an exaggeration.
It's slightly impossible to provide proof here when those posts were snipped or completely edited in out, like in most cases. |
Mallak Azaria
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 11:20:00 -
[438] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Seems the one here trying to start something is you
You seem very fond of saying this. Where I come from, only jobless no-hopers, usually on drugs use this. |
Mallak Azaria
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 11:35:00 -
[439] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Quite frankly, there's only been a couple rare occurrences of mistakes made by the CCL presented in this thread by a very small group of players.
You are just as capable as anyone else of going back through the last few months of threads to find these occurences. If you want proof so badly, take the initiative of finding it yourself. |
Lord Zim
1022
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 11:58:00 -
[440] - Quote
http://eve-search.com and comparing every post in various threads. Have fun. |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:31:00 -
[441] - Quote
I've lost the thread of the argument here a bit. Are people being upset that they have trolling snipped out of threads now - or is it a genuine concern that they have feedback or criticism for CCP snipped out of threads?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
373
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 16:10:00 -
[442] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: I've lost the thread of the argument here a bit. Are people being upset that they have trolling snipped out of threads now - or is it a genuine concern that they have feedback or criticism for CCP snipped out of threads?
The second one. But I'm seeing less of it, and I'm seeing more attempts at interaction by the ISD team.
Which is excellent.
Think of the ISD team as a new set of boulders, freshly dropped into a river. At first, they dam it up entirely, but the river keeps pushing and the dam bursts. The boulders are no longer stopping up the river, but they're still able to affect it. At first, their rough edges cause a great froth when the river rushes past. After a while, they begin to smooth out. Eventually, they're polished and smooth, able to affect the river's currents with barely a ripple. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
89
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 16:11:00 -
[443] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Think of the ISD team as a new set of boulders, freshly dropped into a river. At first, they dam it up entirely, but the river keeps pushing and the dam bursts. The boulders are no longer stopping up the river, but they're still able to affect it. At first, their rough edges cause a great froth when the river rushes past. After a while, they begin to smooth out. Eventually, they're polished and smooth, able to affect the river's currents with barely a ripple. That was an excellent analogy! +1 HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
234
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 15:28:00 -
[444] - Quote
The bottom line here is the same as I posted 2-3 months ago when this concept of a volunteer moderation team was first floated: This new team is another potential meta-game tool that has immense potential to control the information on the Eve forums.
CCP can promise all they want that the volunteers will be total neutral and unbiased in what they information they censor and who they will eventually ban, but there is zero chance that the null sec zealots will not attempt to subvert this hugely powerful meta-game tool.
And with CCP standing by the statement that all ISD members will be anonymous, there is now way to prove that any power bloc has infiltrated the ISD team with a large quantity of "neutral" moderators.
CCP at the very beginning stated that if someone was going to be banned, they would not only ban that offending account, but ALL accounts held by the offender. Clearly, that means they are going to be using an IP address, or personal information when people set up the account to track the accounts of a target. Why can't they do the same due diligence on the ISD volunteers? It would not stop the sophisticated infiltrators from hiding their allegiances, but it would stop a lot.
Imagine a situation where the ISD members are anonymous, but CCP can easily collate how many ISD members have chars affiliated with certain power blocs, and those aggregate numbers can be posted publicly.
If CCP does not think that goons/CFC and the rest of the null sec zealots are not going to try to control this tool as they try to control every other tool in the game, CCP is well beyond naive. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1038
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 19:06:00 -
[445] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Tin foil hattery. CCP can see a lot more than we can. Including ISPs. I'm pretty sure they would not let too many of one group be on the same volunteer team (unless of course those are the only ones who have volunteered, in which case its "our" fault).
Either way though, it is a good idea that has worked on hundreds of forums. Its just a little more difficult here.
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
809
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 21:14:00 -
[446] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: CCP can promise all they want that the volunteers will be total neutral and unbiased in what they information they censor and who they will eventually ban, but there is zero chance that the null sec zealots will not attempt to subvert this hugely powerful meta-game tool.
ISD cannot ban people. All bans are done by CCP staff, so there is zero chance that any null sec zealots will be able to exert such an influence.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: And with CCP standing by the statement that all ISD members will be anonymous, there is now way to prove that any power bloc has infiltrated the ISD team with a large quantity of "neutral" moderators.
CCP have all the proof they need as to the affiliations of whomever they employ, they have already clearly stated as such. They have also clearly explained why volunteers remain anonymous.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: CCP at the very beginning stated that if someone was going to be banned, they would not only ban that offending account, but ALL accounts held by the offender. Clearly, that means they are going to be using an IP address, or personal information when people set up the account to track the accounts of a target. Why can't they do the same due diligence on the ISD volunteers? It would not stop the sophisticated infiltrators from hiding their allegiances, but it would stop a lot.
Whoever said that they did not do the same kind of due diligence on the volunteers? CCP already stated that they check the main account of the applicant, along with any other connecting accounts. They also stated that they collect photographic identity from them as well, either in the form of a passport, ID card or drivers licence. Do you honestly believe for one moment that someone could bypass CCP's internal security checks in the game that THEY own?
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Imagine a situation where the ISD members are anonymous, but CCP can easily collate how many ISD members have chars affiliated with certain power blocs, and those aggregate numbers can be posted publicly.
If CCP does not think that goons/CFC and the rest of the null sec zealots are not going to try to control this tool as they try to control every other tool in the game, CCP is well beyond naive.
As stated before, CCP would know exactly whom they were hiring.
I will attempt to find some relevant links for you, but perhaps in the meantime you may want to re-read some of the other posts in this thread, specifically ones from CCP staff. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 07:52:00 -
[447] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: CCP can promise all they want that the volunteers will be total neutral and unbiased in what they information they censor and who they will eventually ban, but there is zero chance that the null sec zealots will not attempt to subvert this hugely powerful meta-game tool.
ISD cannot ban people. All bans are done by CCP staff.... CCP have all the proof they need as to the affiliations of whomever they employ, they have already clearly stated as such. They have also clearly explained why volunteers remain anonymous. As stated before, CCP would know exactly whom they were hiring.
Corina Jarr wrote: I'm pretty sure they would not let too many of one group be on the same volunteer team (unless of course those are the only ones who have volunteered, in which case its "our" fault).
The problem is that there usually aren't many competent volunteers "outside the powerblocks" willing to devote time and efford for such work. Its a not a problem of "identfying" biased volunteer admins but its a problem of "getting/hiring" unbiased volunteer admins.
A good example are the commentators of the current alliance tournament. Imagine CCP trying to organize the event without speakers from goons, PL, test etc. to prevent any sort of biased moderation .... its probaply impossible.
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
254
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 08:08:00 -
[448] - Quote
Here's an article questioning ISD 'neutrality': http://www.evenews24.com/2012/07/14/shooting-your-own-foot-atx-sisi-practice/ sort of off topic I guess from the forums allegations of abuse but still... it looks exploightable in my eyes in no smaller way then the goons FW exploight . This is EVE & CCP should be aware that there are spys in ISD just like there are spies in every major alliance ( and many smaller ones) with thier own agendas. An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
254
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 08:11:00 -
[449] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote: ISD cannot ban people. All bans are done by CCP staff....
Is it true ISD can give the boot in Sisi? If so you may have to eat your hat... http://www.evenews24.com/2012/07/14/shooting-your-own-foot-atx-sisi-practice/ An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 10:38:00 -
[450] - Quote
It has been said somewhere here in the dev blog & forum that ISD CLL members can not impose forum bans. Forum bans can only be executed by CCP staff.
CCP Navigator wrote: Volunteers CCL will be granted roles which allow them to:
Edit threads and posts GÇô Volunteers can remove offensive, trolling, flame and spam content in threads and posts. These edits will be monitored by the Community team daily.
Move threads GÇô If a thread is created in the incorrect forum subsection then volunteers can move it to the correct area . Moderate thread titles GÇô If a thread has been created with a misleading or incorrect title then a volunteer can change it to something more appropriate.
Delete posts GÇô Posts which contain keyloggers, pornography or inappropriate links can be deleted. These deletions will be monitored by the Community Team
After reading the CCL dev blog once again I'am getting the impression, that excate those reason put down the first volunteer team in 2007.
CCP Navigator wrote:
What is the role of the Community Communication Liaisons?
Those who have been a part of the EVE player community for a while may remember that we had volunteer moderators in the past. In fact, I used to be one. Growing concerns about information those volunteers had access to (such as the names of other playersGÇÖ alts) and their ability to issue forum bans to other players led to the decision to shut the program down in 2007. We believe that these revised plans will ensure that players feel comfortable with the CCL and will be able to collaborate with them andthe Community team to enhance communication on important issues
Quite interessting story DarthNefarius http://www.evenews24.com/2012/07/14/shooting-your-own-foot-atx-sisi-practice/. Thanks for the link
|
|
|
ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 21:56:00 -
[451] - Quote
Hello everyone!!
Just thought I would take a moment to introduce myself to you all, I'm Type40 and I am a member of the CCL. I've been a part of the EVE community for a little over 6 years and have tried pretty much everything that EVE has to offer, from high sec mission running to zooming round in null sec chasing down enemy fleets, even after all this time I still find myself learning new things.
Over the years EVE and its community has become a big part of my life, I have given a lot to it, and received even more in return. I have played a handful of other MMO's, some I have even taken a small break from EVE to play, but I always find myself coming back here and it feels like coming home. I have a great deal of affection for this game and everyone in it, that is why I applied to the CCL, so that I might have a chance to give back to a community that has given me so much.
I will be doing the best that I can for everyone, so hopefully you will be patient with me as I find my feet, and in return I promise to work hard for all of you. Thanks for reading this and I'll see you out there in forum land, post safe!
Type40 ISD Type40 Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Quaaid
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
50
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 14:21:00 -
[452] - Quote
ISD TYPE40 wrote:Hello everyone!!
-- snip --
Type40
^ I got you first. Tag, you're it! |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 15:01:00 -
[453] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Ah, the Ostrich method of detecting wrongdoing.
It seems the only person trying to start something here is you. The rest of us here (CCP included) recognize that the ISD team made mistakes. Because of that recognition, they can improve their behavior, and it looks a lot like they're working on improving their behavior.
Yelling that they didn't need to change in the first place isn't constructive at this point. But hey, Authority is always right, huh.
lol, you say I'm doing the Ostrich method of detecting wrongdoing? Quite frankly, there's only been a couple rare occurrences of mistakes made by the CCL presented in this thread by a very small group of players. Seems the one here trying to start something is you acting like Chicken Little running around yelling "The Sky Is Falling", constantly trying to incite others to join in the crusade, claiming there's been a multitude of unjustified acts of moderation committed.
No This thread is hear due to player actions caused by ISD moderation. CCP has apologised, so why are you ignoring those facts rather than arguing already moot points ?
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Mallak Azaria
340
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 14:56:00 -
[454] - Quote
Rats wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Ah, the Ostrich method of detecting wrongdoing.
It seems the only person trying to start something here is you. The rest of us here (CCP included) recognize that the ISD team made mistakes. Because of that recognition, they can improve their behavior, and it looks a lot like they're working on improving their behavior.
Yelling that they didn't need to change in the first place isn't constructive at this point. But hey, Authority is always right, huh.
lol, you say I'm doing the Ostrich method of detecting wrongdoing? Quite frankly, there's only been a couple rare occurrences of mistakes made by the CCL presented in this thread by a very small group of players. Seems the one here trying to start something is you acting like Chicken Little running around yelling "The Sky Is Falling", constantly trying to incite others to join in the crusade, claiming there's been a multitude of unjustified acts of moderation committed. No This thread is here due to player actions caused by ISD moderation. CCP has apologised, so why are you ignoring those facts rather than arguing already moot points ? Tal
I would like to add at this time that ISD still have a long way to go. If you're going to edit a persons post for personal attacks, you should probably edit the posts by other people that also have the exact same personal attacks.
Picking on one person is mean & not very nice. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
459
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 04:18:00 -
[455] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=135514&find=unread
Dear ISD Type40,
How in the world is that thread Trolling? At worst, it's good advice (I know how much that anger's me). A guide to escaping the cycle of "I need more stuff before..." is something that a lot of players would find useful if they were willing to read it.
Looking further into the OP, I know how much people working together angers me, but I don't see how suggesting something as radical as people being rewarded for doing so is trolling.
I know I love it when my enemies/targets don't know basic game mechanics, and it annoys me when they learn to play better, but I don't think that suggesting that people learn about game mechanics is trolling.
I know how I like it when people I kill are on their last ISK, and it's disappointing when someone only flies what they actually can afford to lose, but I don't think that suggesting caution is trolling.
I know I love telling people that the mechanics they use every day are bad when I have no earthly idea how they work, and it's upsetting to me when someone points out the fact that I know nothing about the subject, but I don't think that suggesting a basic familiarity be a prerequisite for discussing a topic is trolling. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1090
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 04:44:00 -
[456] - Quote
I'm a little confused on that one myself. It didn't seem any more trollish than the usual on GD. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
460
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 07:46:00 -
[457] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1672671#post1672671
Thanks ISD DB (I'm sorry, your name is just a nightmare to try and spell). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1091
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:52:00 -
[458] - Quote
I do hope Type40 continues working. He did well up till then, and one mistake should not be the end of it.
I also found him rather funny in the terrible threads a day or so ago. |
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:54:00 -
[459] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:I do hope Type40 continues working. He did well up till then, and one mistake should not be the end of it.
I also found him rather funny in the terrible threads a day or so ago.
He will continue, im sure ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
461
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:44:00 -
[460] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:I do hope Type40 continues working. He did well up till then, and one mistake should not be the end of it.
I also found him rather funny in the terrible threads a day or so ago.
Wouldn't the best punishment be forcing him to try and herd angry cats? Oh, wait...
I think at this point, so long as the ISD team continues to fix mistakes that they make and learn from them, I, for one, won't be calling for anyone's head. The perfect moderation team has finesse, learns from their mistakes, and is willing to fix their mistakes. 2 out of 3 ain't bad, and I'm seeing signs of finesse starting to show up. Keep up the good work.
I'd still like to hear what CCP's vision for the tone of the forums is, why they want to change the tone of the forums, and how they plan on changing it. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
|
|
ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 21:58:00 -
[461] - Quote
Hello there, pardon my blushes.
First of all I'd like to thank Pipa and Corina and offer my apologies to the OP of the thread involved.
Your understanding is a great help, knowing that I can make an honest mistake and not have it be the end of my time at the ISD is a great comfort. In my haste to do good, I ended up doing the wrong thing, thankfully I am part of a great team of people who look out for one another as well as everyone who uses these forums.The learning curve for being an ISD member is quite steep, at least in the beginning, so to know that I have the support of my co-workers as well as the forum users, helps to level off that curve to a manageable level.
Being a part of the EVE community in the way I am now has been a dream of mine for a very long time, and my personal goal is to help everyone involved, both players and staff alike, make these forums a place where everyone can express their views, dreams and hopes. In my rush to achieve this I made a mistake, one which I intend to learn from as best I can. In future I will do my best to make sure something like this doesn't happen again
PS. Corina, thanks for the comment about my funnies, that cheered me up, and Pipa, herding cats is a cruel task to give someone, but It's probably easier than herding angry EVE players (I should know, I've been one)
And to Dorrim, thanks for the help
ISD Type40 Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Lord Zim
1087
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 22:01:00 -
[462] - Quote
Herding cats is easy, just wave some tuna or some sort of fish around and you'll have no problems getting them to follow you. |
Pipa Porto
462
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 22:14:00 -
[463] - Quote
ISD TYPE40 wrote:The learning curve for being an ISD member is quite steep, at least in the beginning
Kind of like the rest of EVE
Quote:Pipa, herding cats is a cruel task to give someone
Well, you did volunteer for it, so it kind of makes it a poor way to punish you, huh.
Anyway, keep up the good work. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
127
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 18:03:00 -
[464] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1672671#post1672671
Thanks ISD DB (I'm sorry, your name is just a nightmare to try and spell).
No problem. Glad I could help.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Ensign Community Communication Liasions (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
599
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 19:39:00 -
[465] - Quote
So, I want to start by saying that ISD Type40 is doing a fine job.
However, when an ISD posts:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:Thread cleaned of trolling and personal attacks. Please keep your posting on topic and constructive in future, thank you.
Personal attacks and trolling removed - ISD Type40.
on a long thread, I want to know if my posts got caught in the sweep. I'm not a nice poster, but I don't do personal attacks and trolling, as a art, is subject to interpretation (in fact, by the EVE-O rules, a post can be on-topic, constructive, and still trolling if you get the tone and wording just right).
Can we get a notification for edits and post deletions (especially edits)? I know we asked for this earlier in this thread, but I don't think we got an answer. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
612
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:22:00 -
[466] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1735151#post1735151
Another one that did not need to be locked.
With a 130 page threadnaught, there's obviously going to be a share of trolls. Most of them probably won't listen to you when you tell them not to troll. The way to deal with that is to keep cleaning the thread, not to lock it right after a Dev post. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
2048
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 21:33:00 -
[467] - Quote
I would like to remind you that discussions of warnings, bans or other specific moderation actions are not allowed on our forums. However, you can contact always the EVE Community team via the petition system in case of serious questions regarding specific moderation actions. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
Pipa Porto
614
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 22:19:00 -
[468] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:I would like to remind you that discussions of warnings, bans or other specific moderation actions are not allowed on our forums. However, you can contact always the EVE Community team via the petition system in case of serious questions regarding specific moderation actions.
1) I understand that rule, and the rationale behind it, but this thread has been ignoring that rule for a bit with plenty of ISD interaction giving the impression that this thread's tacitly exempt.
2) We don't trust the black hole that is the petition system. IMHO, Public Commentary is the best way to achieve improvement. (In the past, CCP has shown that Public Commentary has been the only way to get results.)
3) The posts you left un-culled (i.e. all of the positive response to specific good moderation actions) are interesting.
4) In any discussion, having examples is the only way to not sound like a wavering ninny. "I feel that some threads are being locked without needing to be, but I can't say which, and I can't discuss why they might have been locked, nor how they might be better treated in the future" does not make for high minded discussion. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 07:45:00 -
[469] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:I would like to remind you that discussions of warnings, bans or other specific moderation actions are not allowed on our forums. However, you can contact always the EVE Community team via the petition system in case of serious questions regarding specific moderation actions. 1) I understand that rule, and the rationale behind it, but this thread has been ignoring that rule for a bit with plenty of ISD interaction giving the impression that this thread's tacitly exempt. 2) We don't trust the black hole that is the petition system. IMHO, Public Commentary is the best way to achieve improvement. (In the past, CCP has shown that Public Commentary has been the only way to get results.) 3) The posts you left un-culled (i.e. all of the positive response to specific good moderation actions) are interesting. 4) In any discussion, having examples is the only way to not sound like a wavering ninny. "I feel that some threads are being locked without needing to be, but I can't say which, and I can't discuss why they might have been locked, nor how they might be better treated in the future" does not make for high minded discussion.
This, leaving only positive discussion in a thread that was opened to allow the community to discuss moderation after ISD went a bit overboard turns this into a "ra ra ISD" thread rather than a two way discussion.
CCP moderation so full of fail ( See I didn't mention anything specific there), that's what you get when you don't allow examples to be discussed.
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
607
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 08:42:00 -
[470] - Quote
They are trying to improve the forums through trust. We don't need examples because we TRUST you. When you said ISD moderation is bad, they trust you and believe so.
See there is no reason for examples.
I almost like their moderation, since they only lock threads, instead of banning people. I propably would have been banned in WOW for the stuff I have said in here. But I only faced total eraser for it. My mind is turning more into total recall with every passing ISD punishment. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
|
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 09:59:00 -
[471] - Quote
rodyas wrote:They are trying to improve the forums through trust. We don't need examples because we TRUST you. When you said ISD moderation is bad, they trust you and believe so.
See there is no reason for examples.
I almost like their moderation, since they only lock threads, instead of banning people. I propably would have been banned in WOW for the stuff I have said in here. But here I only faced total eraser for it. My mind is turning more into total recall with every passing ISD punishment.
Err no they do ban ppl, and what are you talking about Trust ? what has that got to do with it ??
If I'm going to argue a point I'll back it up with examples as you would normally do with a discussion, and no they don't believe us as it took a forum rebellion before they started talking to us after we told them that certain aspects of their moderation was flawed.
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
609
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 10:15:00 -
[472] - Quote
But in a way your not banned. You are letting them know who you are. The same poster who was banned. But they let you keep posting anyhow.
That is the total eraser part. Here you are still talking, but nothing from your past identity is present or can be found.
p.s. Have they forced you to confess your sins to CCP navigator yet, for you to get unbanned? I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 11:29:00 -
[473] - Quote
rodyas wrote:But in a way your not banned. You are letting them know who you are. The same poster who was banned. But they let you keep posting anyhow.
That is the total eraser part. Here you are still talking, but nothing from your past identity is present or can be found.
p.s. Have they forced you to confess your sins to CCP navigator yet, for you to get unbanned?
"I would like to remind you that discussions of warnings, bans or other specific moderation actions are not allowed on our forums"
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Pipa Porto
623
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:07:00 -
[474] - Quote
rodyas wrote:But in a way your not banned. You are letting them know who you are. The same poster who was banned. But they let you keep posting anyhow.
That is the total eraser part. Here you are still talking, but nothing from your past identity is present or can be found.
p.s. Have they forced you to confess your sins to CCP navigator yet, for you to get unbanned?
CCP Phantom wrote:I would like to remind you that discussions of warnings, bans or other specific moderation actions are not allowed on our forums.
Also, nobody in here has been talking about anyone getting banned. We were discussing some examples of the ISD's moderation not quite measuring up, and how they could improve. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
615
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 06:59:00 -
[475] - Quote
Rats wrote:rodyas wrote:But in a way your not banned. You are letting them know who you are. The same poster who was banned. But they let you keep posting anyhow.
That is the total eraser part. Here you are still talking, but nothing from your past identity is present or can be found.
p.s. Have they forced you to confess your sins to CCP navigator yet, for you to get unbanned? "I would like to remind you that discussions of warnings, bans or other specific moderation actions are not allowed on our forums" Tal
Your moderation isn't allowed to be discussed.
It is easy to tell the moderation of the ISD and CCP though. Its all business. Just try to see the business cycle. Then when players go past it, they come in and moderate. Its just hard to always stay inside the business curve for players,(as well as the circle can feel small at times) why ISD so bad at times. Of course, players being sad and changing actions does help to expand that business cycle or curve. Allowing us to go farther.
Just for communication to be present I suppose, that business curve must cleanse the forum, Then we are free to discuss ideas. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1178
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 21:54:00 -
[476] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:I would like to remind you that discussions of warnings, bans or other specific moderation actions are not allowed on our forums. However, you can contact always the EVE Community team via the petition system in case of serious questions regarding specific moderation actions. I think the reason Pipa/Ruby would like to see a way to know when a post has been edited/removed is a good one.
In a very long thread, posts can end up edited without us being aware of it. There are times that a person may not realize they have crossed a line, and they will continue oblivious unless they check every post of theirs every day.
I understand that this could be used by some as a way to argue their moderation. This is the unfortunate nature of forums.
It still woudl be beneficial for us to know when we have crossed the line, even for minor things. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
616
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 08:33:00 -
[477] - Quote
Well just stop posting before you read the thread. Its usually easy to detect what was deleted. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1185
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 17:16:00 -
[478] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well just stop posting before you read the thread. Its usually easy to detect what was deleted. Not in a 100+ page thread when editing could be anywhere within those 100 pages.
Some of us post a lot, especially in more active threads.
I understand the issues with the request, which is why I am not pushing for it as much as I would like.
On a side note: I was edited!!! Yay. Well, a quote was edited... |
Pipa Porto
641
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 18:28:00 -
[479] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well just stop posting before you read the thread. Its usually easy to detect what was deleted.
Yes, because I want to read hundreds of pages of material that I already wrote, read, and probably only foggily remember to look for the hidden: "Edited By: ISD...."
I'd be happy if re-edits of ISD edited posts had to be approved before posting (maybe with a cooldown to avoid spam?), but I'd like to be notified when somebody makes changes to things I've written that have my name next to them.
Which again comes down to trust. I think the ISDs have made great strides in their skills in moderation, but I don't trust them yet. Not being notified of edits essentially denies the poster a chance to petition and argue their case, or re-write the post to fix whatever's wrong (and put it back into their own words). I stand by my words. Ninja-Edits force me to inadvertently stand by someone else's words*.
*There was a thread before the initial kerfuffle whose OP got edited multiple times by ISDs to the point where it didn't reflect the OP's intent at all, then moved to an inappropriate place, then one of the CCP's told the OP that he posted in the wrong place and should fix his OP. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 18:47:00 -
[480] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
*There was a thread before the initial kerfuffle whose OP got edited multiple times by ISDs to the point where it didn't reflect the OP's intent at all, then moved to an inappropriate place, then one of the CCP's told the OP that he posted in the wrong place and should fix his OP.
Thats just funny, sure it wasn't a mod having a giggle
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
|
Pipa Porto
641
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 18:59:00 -
[481] - Quote
Rats wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
*There was a thread before the initial kerfuffle whose OP got edited multiple times by ISDs to the point where it didn't reflect the OP's intent at all, then moved to an inappropriate place, then one of the CCP's told the OP that he posted in the wrong place and should fix his OP.
Thats just funny, sure it wasn't a mod having a giggle Tal
I'm not sure that's better. I love it when Devs and Mods troll people by posting. Trolling people using mod tools just isn't sporting. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
617
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:14:00 -
[482] - Quote
But Pipa, if you don't like people using mod tools to troll, why don't you support miners rather then pvpers?
I am just trying to get people to use skills when they forum post, to help avoid the ISD gank. But you aren't helping me out, like you would help pvpers vs the miners. Fine maybe you guys should just get buffed at forum posting, that no one is allowed to gank you, and nothing bad happens, even though you don't use skills to post, or fit a good forum tank. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Pipa Porto
644
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:27:00 -
[483] - Quote
rodyas wrote:But Pipa, if you don't like people using mod tools to troll, why don't you support miners rather then pvpers?
I am just trying to get people to use skills when they forum post, to help avoid the ISD gank. But you aren't helping me out, like you would help pvpers vs the miners. Fine maybe you guys should just get buffed at forum posting, that no one is allowed to gank you, and nothing bad happens, even though you don't use skills to post, or fit a good forum tank.
Yeah...
The Tools that Gankers use are available to everyone. Make Mod Tools available to everyone, and I won't be bothered by ISDs and Devs using them to troll people. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
617
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:59:00 -
[484] - Quote
Or you could give everyone skills, and tanking knowledge.
Giving everyone mod tools, would be a fun sub category in a forum.
Also read, crime and punishment. The give everyone mod tools, is a Nietzsche's Superman. But crime and punishment, shows how nietzche's superman doesn't always work out best for society. So you could make everyone a nietzche superman with dev tools, but the society of our forums would crumble.
But if, everyone being a god was bad for society, how can we have a god, or allow one to live?
Perhaps the ISD should come down then. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Pipa Porto
646
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 22:28:00 -
[485] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Or you could give everyone skills, and tanking knowledge.
Giving everyone mod tools, would be a fun sub category in a forum.
Also read, crime and punishment. The give everyone mod tools, is a Nietzsche's Superman. But crime and punishment, shows how nietzche's superman doesn't always work out best for society. So you could make everyone a nietzche superman with dev tools, but the society of our forums would crumble.
But if, everyone being a god was bad for society, how can we have a god, or allow one to live?
Perhaps the ISD should come down then.
Getting notified when your posts are edited is the Tank against ISD/Dev Trolling with Mod tools.
As for :stuff: about Nietzsche, :thbbth: EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
617
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 00:35:00 -
[486] - Quote
Well good luck getting it, perhaps ya will who knows. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 08:40:00 -
[487] - Quote
Maybe you could get skills for the forums
Forum Tanking, 10% chance of posts not getting edited per lvl Forum Editing, 10% chance of editing someone else s post successfully per lvl Forum Trolling, 10% chance of not getting posts deleted per lvl
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
92
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 15:39:00 -
[488] - Quote
Bring back ISD Banhammer. They were the hero that the Forums deserved. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 21:13:00 -
[489] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:Bring back ISD Banhammer. They were the hero that the Forums deserved.
You know if it was a film Arnold Schwarzenegger would play the part of ISD Banhammer, I can just hear him saying it .....
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
263
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:09:00 -
[490] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums.
Not only that, but locking of legitimate fun threads created with honest intentions.
There is a double standard going on with the "fun" threads throughout the forums (specifically General Discussion). This kind of inconsistency undermines your entire team.
The "fun" threads being those threads:
The Like and Get Likes Thread What is the avatar above you thinking? What would you say if you woke up to the Avatar above you in your bed?
While ISD locks all other fun threads instead of letting them die out as they usually do. They even go as far to call these threads "spam threads" and "troll threads" but this shows bias because how are the 3 threads I listed considered valid by their standards? I am the Kingpin of the Crime and Punishment forum.
I am the rightful heir to the CSM 8 throne.
|
|
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
136
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:45:00 -
[491] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. Not only that, but locking of legitimate fun threads created with honest intentions. There is a double standard going on with the "fun" threads throughout the forums (specifically General Discussion). This kind of inconsistency undermines your entire team. The "fun" threads being those threads: The Like and Get Likes Thread What is the avatar above you thinking? What would you say if you woke up to the Avatar above you in your bed? While ISD locks all other fun threads instead of letting them die out as they usually do. They even go as far to call these threads "spam threads" and "troll threads" but this shows bias because how are the 3 threads I listed considered valid by their standards?
I think we all can agree that 3 threads of this nature are enough in General Discussion. I-¦m sure the majority of forum users dont want to see the first page of GD consisting of "What is the avatar ...." threads.
However, you are welcome to file a petition under the "community" tab to have your case looked into by a CCP employee. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
782
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:52:00 -
[492] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:I think we all can agree that 3 threads of this nature are enough in General Discussion. I-¦m sure the majority of forum users dont want to see the first page of GD consisting of "What is the avatar ...." threads.
However, you are welcome to file a petition under the "community" tab to have your case looked into by a CCP employee.
I think his point is "Why those 3 Specific Threads?" and "Why any of those threads, since you're admitting that threads of that nature don't belong in GD by locking other threads of that nature."
And I'd say that the nature and application (or not) of rules that govern our behavior here is a matter of public interest and thus should be discussed publicly (since posting petition replies is a no-no, petitions don't fit that bill). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
638
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 04:46:00 -
[493] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Eshtir wrote:I think we all can agree that 3 threads of this nature are enough in General Discussion. I-¦m sure the majority of forum users dont want to see the first page of GD consisting of "What is the avatar ...." threads.
However, you are welcome to file a petition under the "community" tab to have your case looked into by a CCP employee. I think his point is "Why those 3 Specific Threads?" and "Why any of those threads, since you're admitting that threads of that nature don't belong in GD by locking other threads of that nature." And I'd say that the nature and application (or not) of rules that govern our behavior here is a matter of public interest and thus should be discussed publicly (since posting petition replies is a no-no, petitions don't fit that bill).
Of course, one would have to be slightly educated to discuss the nature and applications (or not) of rules that govern behavior.
And you have already stated earlier in this thread, you have no interest in education. So just getting anything you want easily, has been something you have brown nosed already in other threads. So I am not sure how to help you out really. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 07:43:00 -
[494] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Eshtir wrote:I think we all can agree that 3 threads of this nature are enough in General Discussion. I-¦m sure the majority of forum users dont want to see the first page of GD consisting of "What is the avatar ...." threads.
However, you are welcome to file a petition under the "community" tab to have your case looked into by a CCP employee. I think his point is "Why those 3 Specific Threads?" and "Why any of those threads, since you're admitting that threads of that nature don't belong in GD by locking other threads of that nature." And I'd say that the nature and application (or not) of rules that govern our behavior here is a matter of public interest and thus should be discussed publicly (since posting petition replies is a no-no, petitions don't fit that bill). Of course, one would have to be slightly educated to discuss the nature and applications (or not) of rules that govern behavior. And you have already stated earlier in this thread, you have no interest in education. So just getting anything you want easily, has been something you have brown nosed already in other threads. So I am not sure how to help you out really.
Didn't see where he was asking fro your help, as your not ISD but another pleb like the rest of us. Funny did Pipa upset you at some point, as your post came across as "you mad bro" to use the local vernacular ?
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
680
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 08:22:00 -
[495] - Quote
Pipa, is usually a bane to me, in most topics. This thread is mostly fun, since it seems the tables were turned for once.
Read as: Pipa usually likes the attack and is usually good at it, except for when it comes to ISD relations. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
548
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 03:27:00 -
[496] - Quote
I have become concerned that all the fun is being sucked out of General Discussion. I am perfectly aware of the no rumor rule subsequently no longer making this part of the Meta game.
But killing of threads like the funny CQ hamburger one and now "proof of sekret alliancia between goonswrm y triple a" is just a bit ridiculous. They were just good fun threads with some harmless fun involved.
Or Is GD to just be replaced with a factual library of topics. If so it would be less boring if you just replaced it with a corrected and updated WiKi. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1247
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 19:25:00 -
[497] - Quote
GD is for discussion that does not fall into the other categories. It is not for off topic threads whose only purpose is an attention grab. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
555
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 02:37:00 -
[498] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:GD is for discussion that does not fall into the other categories. It is not for off topic threads whose only purpose is an attention grab. Actually almost all of what is posted in GD does fall under another category except the whacky threads. Its just that most of them are not moved. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
AcT-Damien
Red Star Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 00:11:00 -
[499] - Quote
We all make mistakes.
Admin accidentaly slips bad word. |
Lachrimosis
Defense Industry International
87
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 19:46:00 -
[500] - Quote
Character Bazaar ISD's (namely Type40) need to learn the definition of "bump" before locking threads/etc.
A selling character should be able to reply, in non-discussion provoking language, to offers and questions in thread for the benefit of all other potential purchasers. |
|
Aurora2012
Sacred Templars RED.OverLord
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 21:15:00 -
[501] - Quote
Lachrimosis wrote:Character Bazaar ISD's (namely Type40) need to learn the definition of "bump" before locking threads/etc.
A selling character should be able to reply, in non-discussion provoking language, to offers and questions in thread for the benefit of all other potential purchasers.
This is some think i can agree with 100%. the last 3 months of these new ISD'S has been a nightmare i mean ok there trying to do there job but maybe CCP/GM/ISD/BH and so on should ask the players that pay for the game what they think should be done different. Dont just let the have there fun on the posts we put up.
Im not just saying this because i have had post locked in the past im saying it because its what needs to be done and im saying it from some one that is all ways on the forum more then eve i read lots of post by people and see what they like and dont like about this and i do also agree with the new helpers some times but like i said what needs to happen is.
1. Look back before the new ISD'S where here and see what people did not like and what they did like.
2. Ask some new eve players what they think about the forum's.
3. get in touch with the older player's because we are have played for a long time and know a little more.
4. Get some poles going to see what every one thinks as one group.
5. Make a video about what the community has told EvE and what you are going to do about it.
6. Put the new rules in place
7. Follow some of the posts to see how things are going.
8. Sit back and chill out as you wont have so much work to do any more.
Remember this is just what i think should happen there are so many more people out there so listen to them all if you have the time.
Thanks for taking the time to read this every one.
Give me a little mail/like if you agree what what i have said but also tell me if you think i am wrong it all helps Once again thanks all. |
HaltHammerzeit
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 08:22:00 -
[502] - Quote
Lachrimosis wrote:Character Bazaar ISD's (namely Type40) need to learn the definition of "bump" before locking threads/etc.
A selling character should be able to reply, in non-discussion provoking language, to offers and questions in thread for the benefit of all other potential purchasers.
Couldn't agree more, the thread-locking frenzy in character bazaar is nearly an epidemic atm.
ISD TYPE 40 in particular is someone who I feel is having a negative impact on the smooth-running of the forum. For example, last week, out of 5 auctions I bid in (no discussion/questions, just number only bids) the guy locked 3 of them at some stage. It used to be that people were given a warning and although I welcome tougher rules, this borders on the ridiculous.
I noticed his latest trick is posting in normal, straight-forward sales at the end to comment that the sale is done and to lock the thread. WHY??? Isn't this free bumping to topics that are already closed? Total waste of peoples' time and it seems to be just done to aggravate the forum community. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1254
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 20:15:00 -
[503] - Quote
He may not be aware of the lax bumping policy of the Bazaar. Someone should say something... oh wait. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
609
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 01:32:00 -
[504] - Quote
Given that a now banned member of this forum community has brought up possible corruption by ISD's (I myself am not saying there is)
But what safety measures are in place to prevent ISDs from receiving bribes to lock posts or for that matter just lock them as they perceive is beneficial for their corp?
Besides us throwing more petitions into the already overloaded system Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
296
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 01:53:00 -
[505] - Quote
ISD has been on a tear lately.
Some of the funniest faux paus I have seen though is thier 'editing' of thread names which make little sense
=========================================================
EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents. EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Pipa Porto
846
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:50:00 -
[506] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Given that a now banned member of this forum community has brought up possible corruption by ISD's (I myself am not saying there is)
But what safety measures are in place to prevent ISDs from receiving bribes to lock posts or for that matter just lock them as they perceive is beneficial for their corp?
Besides us throwing more petitions into the already overloaded system
Hey, it's the NickyYo tinfoil hat brigade.
Has NickyYo brought forth any evidence to support his assertion of corruption? No? Ah...
Got any evidence of favoritism (besides their well established habit of whitewashing anything critical of CCP)? No? Ah...
If you have any solid evidence of anything, I believe [email protected] is your destination.
Anyway, the safety measures are the same as with CCP Devs. We're not allowed to know who their IG characters are, and it's hard to bribe someone whom we can't identify. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
609
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 05:45:00 -
[507] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Given that a now banned member of this forum community has brought up possible corruption by ISD's (I myself am not saying there is)
But what safety measures are in place to prevent ISDs from receiving bribes to lock posts or for that matter just lock them as they perceive is beneficial for their corp?
Besides us throwing more petitions into the already overloaded system Hey, it's the NickyYo tinfoil hat brigade. Has NickyYo brought forth any evidence to support his assertion of corruption? No? Ah... Got any evidence of favoritism (besides their well established habit of whitewashing anything critical of CCP)? No? Ah... If you have any solid evidence of anything, I believe [email protected] is your destination. Anyway, the safety measures are the same as with CCP Devs. We're not allowed to know who their IG characters are, and it's hard to bribe someone whom we can't identify. Actually I can't say I do believe him but it would be nice to know they have safeguards in place because unlike DEVs, ISDs don't have to worry about loosing their jobs if they are caught telling their alliance members who they are and taking bribes. As the ISD is just a volunteer position. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Pipa Porto
846
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 06:40:00 -
[508] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Actually I can't say I do believe him but it would be nice to know they have safeguards in place because unlike DEVs, ISDs don't have to worry about loosing their jobs if they are caught telling their alliance members who they are and taking bribes. As the ISD is just a volunteer position.
I just hate it when my arguments from earlier get thrown back at me.
Unless CCP's gonna ban fallen ISD accounts, that's always going to be a concern. Of course, historically CCP hasn't fired Devs for misconduct within the game, so I'm not sure how a game ban for an ISD would compare with a... whatever internal punishment they give Devs.
It's really not something we can have much insight into either way. Either we trust the IA department to do their job or we don't. They're not going to tell us what they have and haven't done.
If we trust the IA department, we can trust that the ISDs are unlikely to get away with taking bribes for moderation (silly as that sounds). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
610
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 07:08:00 -
[509] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Actually I can't say I do believe him but it would be nice to know they have safeguards in place because unlike DEVs, ISDs don't have to worry about loosing their jobs if they are caught telling their alliance members who they are and taking bribes. As the ISD is just a volunteer position. I just hate it when my arguments from earlier get thrown back at me. Unless CCP's gonna ban fallen ISD accounts, that's always going to be a concern. Of course, historically CCP hasn't fired Devs for misconduct within the game, so I'm not sure how a game ban for an ISD would compare with a... whatever internal punishment they give Devs. It's really not something we can have much insight into either way. Either we trust the IA department to do their job or we don't. They're not going to tell us what they have and haven't done. If we trust the IA department, we can trust that the ISDs are unlikely to get away with taking bribes for moderation (silly as that sounds). Pretty much why I was wondering if they had active safeguards. I understand the passive ones, of us the players sending an email to internal affairs but do they actually have any active measures them selves to discover this kind of behaviour them selves.
For instance are they regularly checking the ISDs player accounts for large sums or gifts and requesting an explanation of these? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
685
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 08:27:00 -
[510] - Quote
Hm, maybe we could all just relax a bit, and remember what the ISD's favorite words are.
If you have any problems with moderation, feel free to send a petition about it.
Of course someone powerful in a null sec alliance, could bribe GMs as well as the ISD, so those petitions go unanswered. As well as someone offering beer to CCP for the moderation problem, to just be ignored. Also a powerful person in null sec, could offer a great job to a person in IA, which he would then ignore the moderation problems, to get said job. I could go on of course, but hopefully, they just respond to your petition. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
610
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 08:39:00 -
[511] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Hm, maybe we could all just relax a bit, and remember what the ISD's favorite words are.
If you have any problems with moderation, feel free to send a petition about it.
Of course someone powerful in a null sec alliance, could bribe GMs as well as the ISD, so those petitions go unanswered. As well as someone offering beer to CCP for the moderation problem, to just be ignored. Also a powerful person in null sec, could offer a great job to a person in IA, which he would then ignore the moderation problems, to get said job. I could go on of course, but hopefully, they just respond to your petition. Subsequently making the purpose of this thread? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
685
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 08:47:00 -
[512] - Quote
Yeah or post in this thread. either one I suppose ya want, just seemed, petitions are more serious in nature then this thread. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
|
CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2673
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 14:05:00 -
[513] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Given that a now banned member of this forum community has brought up possible corruption by ISD's (I myself am not saying there is)
But what safety measures are in place to prevent ISDs from receiving bribes to lock posts or for that matter just lock them as they perceive is beneficial for their corp?
Besides us throwing more petitions into the already overloaded system
The checks that are in place are pretty much the same as we have for others who have some access to our back end tools. We don't have any problem with people reporting their suspicions to us (on the contrary), through a petition or mail, but we want and need some evidence to be presented and when people spread rumors publicly without a shred of evidence, we don't take kindly to it any more than if people spread unsupported rumors about CCP staff. Rumors without evidence do nothing but stir up bad vibes.
Lets imagine that you knew of actual bad things, what would be more productive...presenting the same evidence that convinced you to the people responsible, or starting a thread about it without including any evidence? CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
|
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
72
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 14:34:00 -
[514] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Lets imagine that you knew of actual bad things, what would be more productive...presenting the same evidence that convinced you to the people responsible, or starting a thread about it without including any evidence? Let's make your strawman a bit more real. Let's assume that starting a thread about it gets the powers-that-be involved in a day or two, while submitting a petition (in late July) gets them involved in a month or two. Which do *you* think is more effective?
MDD
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
622
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 14:48:00 -
[515] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Given that a now banned member of this forum community has brought up possible corruption by ISD's (I myself am not saying there is)
But what safety measures are in place to prevent ISDs from receiving bribes to lock posts or for that matter just lock them as they perceive is beneficial for their corp?
Besides us throwing more petitions into the already overloaded system The checks that are in place are pretty much the same as we have for others who have some access to our back end tools. We don't have any problem with people reporting their suspicions to us (on the contrary), through a petition or mail, but we want and need some evidence to be presented and when people spread rumors publicly without a shred of evidence, we don't take kindly to it any more than if people spread unsupported rumors about CCP staff. Rumors without evidence do nothing but stir up bad vibes. Lets imagine that you knew of actual bad things, what would be more productive...presenting the same evidence that convinced you to the people responsible, or starting a thread about it without including any evidence? retracted
I saw the chicken launcher.
Just for the record I was not accusing the ISDs of anything I was just inquiring as to whether adequate security measures so prevent corruption where in place. My apologies if you believed I was rumor mongering on such a dangerous subject. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
297
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 18:04:00 -
[516] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:
Lets imagine that you knew of actual bad things, what would be more productive...presenting the same evidence that convinced you to the people responsible, or starting a thread about it without including any evidence?
We live in the age of blogger news & 'internet facts' every1 now & thier mothers post thier tinfoil hat conspiracies and respectable news organizations like Fox NEWS reports them as fact in the media w/o any collaberation or any scientific evidence then 6 months later if proven wrong FOX sayz they are sorry in the middle of the night in a 2 minute segment. That is how we know there is no global warming & we also know illeginamate rapes turn into pregnancies & legitimate ones are aborted by the magical preganacy fairy naturally =========================================================
EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents. EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Pipa Porto
846
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 22:46:00 -
[517] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:CCP Guard wrote:Lets imagine that you knew of actual bad things, what would be more productive...presenting the same evidence that convinced you to the people responsible, or starting a thread about it without including any evidence? Let's make your strawman a bit more real. Let's assume that starting a thread about it gets the powers-that-be involved in a day or two, while submitting a petition (in late July) gets them involved in a month or two. Which do *you* think is more effective? MDD
He's asking "why not post the evidence in the thread you're starting?"
If you have some evidence (the evidence that convinced you that there was a problem), why would you post a thread detailing the problem without providing that evidence that convinced you? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1261
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 04:55:00 -
[518] - Quote
For the record if it is a genuine issue (exploit, harassment etc) and is filed in the correct heading, it gets handled pretty fast.
Just don't expect a response right away for a reimbursement request, of which there are likely hundreds every day. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
695
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 06:34:00 -
[519] - Quote
I think a Dev touched my butt. Not gonna say who
IT WAS CCP ARROW I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Pipa Porto
846
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 08:09:00 -
[520] - Quote
rodyas wrote:I think a Dev touched my butt. Not gonna say who
IT WAS CCP ARROW
I used to be a Virgin, but then I took... EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Quantum Reality R n D GREATER ITAMO MAFIA
888
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 08:11:00 -
[521] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:rodyas wrote:I think a Dev touched my butt. Not gonna say who
IT WAS CCP ARROW I used to be a Virgin, but then I took...
You should be so ashamed...... My views are my own, not those of my Corp. or my Alliance. |
Pipa Porto
847
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 08:27:00 -
[522] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:You should be so ashamed......
I did make the shame face. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
698
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 22:39:00 -
[523] - Quote
I know Pipa, Its almost like the guy has some kind of overall map to human sexuality. Some kind of overall tree type map, that gives CCP Arrow all the options of what to do to you. Some kind of unified map of human sexuality.
Luckily though, his unified map seems a bit buggy, so his hand left fingerprints on my butt. Hopefully someone can email me a copy of his fingerprints, so I can do a check and make sure, I got the right guy. But who else, would know everything, know all the options at a glance? I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
48
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 17:40:00 -
[524] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. Not only that, but locking of legitimate fun threads created with honest intentions. There is a double standard going on with the "fun" threads throughout the forums (specifically General Discussion). This kind of inconsistency undermines your entire team. The "fun" threads being those threads: The Like and Get Likes Thread What is the avatar above you thinking? What would you say if you woke up to the Avatar above you in your bed? While ISD locks all other fun threads instead of letting them die out as they usually do. They even go as far to call these threads "spam threads" and "troll threads" but this shows bias because how are the 3 threads I listed considered valid by their standards?
I agree. Either lock the stupid threads listed above or GTFO of other similar threads.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1266
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 00:22:00 -
[525] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Private Pineapple wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums. Not only that, but locking of legitimate fun threads created with honest intentions. There is a double standard going on with the "fun" threads throughout the forums (specifically General Discussion). This kind of inconsistency undermines your entire team. The "fun" threads being those threads: The Like and Get Likes Thread What is the avatar above you thinking? What would you say if you woke up to the Avatar above you in your bed? While ISD locks all other fun threads instead of letting them die out as they usually do. They even go as far to call these threads "spam threads" and "troll threads" but this shows bias because how are the 3 threads I listed considered valid by their standards? I agree. Either lock the stupid threads listed above or GTFO of other similar threads. I have come to agree on this. Other than the rate avatar thread (it does have some legitimate purpose). |
DelBoy Trades
Trotter Independent Traders.
462
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 03:28:00 -
[526] - Quote
Not only the number of threads that ISD TYPE40 locks, frequently for no reason, but the venom with which he notifies posters in those threads of his actions. He does it with such snide. It's as if it's us against them when it comes to ISD's. In the interests of keeping the forums an enjoyable place to hangout, the semi-sociopathic ISDs such as ISD TYPE40 need purging and replacing with moderators who are actually fond of the EVE community.
At this very moment, 5 of the threads on the front page of GD are locked (all by ISD TYPE40) I will list a selection of comments he most politely left when enjoying his authority:
Quote:This thread is bad and you should feel bad. Thread locked for a lack of content
Quote:What an interesting thread. Oh, no it wasn't. Thread locked
Quote:Thread started off pretty bad and got progressively worse so I'm locking it
Personally I think, if you're going to excersize your powers to get your power trip off, you could at least do it politely. Damn nature, you scary! |
Pipa Porto
863
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 07:42:00 -
[527] - Quote
DelBoy Trades wrote:Personally I think, if you're going to excersize your powers to get your power trip off, you could at least do it politely.
You clearly don't remember the way heroes like Zymurgist locked threads. CCP employees used to pretty regularly troll people on these here forums, and that was a good thing.
I think ISD Type40 is being a little bit quick to lock some of those threads, but showing some personality in the messages used in the course of moderation isn't a bad thing. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
711
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 12:00:00 -
[528] - Quote
Yeah I am with Pipa, the ISD do respond with the same quips that CCP uses when they lock threads. But of course the devs usually have a more fun or joyous personality too at times, (probably comes from being paid, rather then doing voluntary work, but suppose the devs do voluntary work on the forums as well.) to make the slam not so personal or annoying.
But still reminds me of how "players" or devs post too. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Sexy Cakes
Poasting
89
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:14:00 -
[529] - Quote
ISD TYPE40 just locked a thread about graphics upgrades to how ships react to taking damage: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=150629&find=unread
No one likes a whistle blowing rulebook crazy volunteer moderator on a video game forum.
Either talk to him or get rid of him. He's about as annoying as they come. Not today spaghetti. |
minerdave
Mojave Express
17
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:25:00 -
[530] - Quote
Really? JUST locked? Are you sure you don't want to try that again? |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
734
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:27:00 -
[531] - Quote
minerdave wrote:Really? JUST locked? Are you sure you don't want to try that again? That is nit picking in its finest. It was 6 hours ago not a week Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Pook Nasty
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 15:55:00 -
[532] - Quote
He needs to go! His behavior is completely unacceptable. If removed the ISD may not be hated nearly as much. I realize he will edit my post to say something different, than delete it to cover how his crimes. I'm sure I'll be banned shortly after. But, I don't care! Type40 is a griefer, he has ruined my Eve experience. I realize you are protecting him be cause he's free labor. But when is free labor no longer worth it? I'm only one customer. One customer with 9 accounts who buys his plex directly from the account management page at an inflated rate. How many customers like me can you afford to lose? Those ones add up. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1275
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:01:00 -
[533] - Quote
Pook Nasty wrote:He needs to go! His behavior is completely unacceptable. If removed the ISD may not be hated nearly as much. I realize he will edit my post to say something different, than delete it to cover how his crimes. I'm sure I'll be banned shortly after. But, I don't care! Type40 is a griefer, he has ruined my Eve experience. I realize you are protecting him be cause he's free labor. But when is free labor no longer worth it? I'm only one customer. One customer with 9 accounts who buys his plex directly from the account management page at an inflated rate. How many customers like me can you afford to lose? Those ones add up. Thats a little excessive.
He is doing a decent job (aside from the character bazaar bit), and the majority of the threads he has locked have been legitimate.
He also has a nice sense of humor, so maybe you need to work on that. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1275
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:02:00 -
[534] - Quote
That thread should have been locked.
It was trolling (though cleverly hidden using a legitimate idea) and if serious was int he wrong area (F&I for ideas to die). |
Sexy Cakes
Poasting
90
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:14:00 -
[535] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:That thread should have been locked. It was trolling (though cleverly hidden using a legitimate idea) and if serious was int he wrong area (F&I for ideas to die).
As opposed to the normal flow of non-trolling strictly on topic posts of general discussion?
The point is that he's taking it too far and way too seriously, to the point he seems like hes on a power trip.
Sexy Cakes wrote:No one likes a whistle blowing rulebook crazy volunteer moderator on a video game forum. Not today spaghetti. |
Pook Nasty
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:31:00 -
[536] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Pook Nasty wrote:He needs to go! His behavior is completely unacceptable. If removed the ISD may not be hated nearly as much. I realize he will edit my post to say something different, than delete it to cover how his crimes. I'm sure I'll be banned shortly after. But, I don't care! Type40 is a griefer, he has ruined my Eve experience. I realize you are protecting him be cause he's free labor. But when is free labor no longer worth it? I'm only one customer. One customer with 9 accounts who buys his plex directly from the account management page at an inflated rate. How many customers like me can you afford to lose? Those ones add up. Thats a little excessive. He is doing a decent job (aside from the character bazaar bit), and the majority of the threads he has locked have been legitimate. He also has a nice sense of humor, so maybe you need to work on that.
He's doing his job? Only if his job is agitating the posters. If you spend enough time on the forums you'll see that most of his trolls are personal and have very little to do with rules. He's obviously been around for while and brought his grudges with him to his ISD alt.
Somewhere after the 20 or 25th time your attempt to respond to a thread with a well though out response is shot down because he decided to troll the OP after you started typing you start foucusing on how many people he's trolling. Than I decided my time is waisted discussing Eve and it should be spent discussing the real problem. At which point you are added to his trolling list. I'm not just going to set back and take it, I'm going to troll back. Petition is a waist of time, CCP is going to side with their free labor. Moderation can not be discussed because it's corrupt.
So I fight back untill each account is banned. Each account that's banned mean one less sub and one less plex to support that sub. $ is the only voice you have. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1277
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:57:00 -
[537] - Quote
Pook Nasty wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Pook Nasty wrote:He needs to go! His behavior is completely unacceptable. If removed the ISD may not be hated nearly as much. I realize he will edit my post to say something different, than delete it to cover how his crimes. I'm sure I'll be banned shortly after. But, I don't care! Type40 is a griefer, he has ruined my Eve experience. I realize you are protecting him be cause he's free labor. But when is free labor no longer worth it? I'm only one customer. One customer with 9 accounts who buys his plex directly from the account management page at an inflated rate. How many customers like me can you afford to lose? Those ones add up. Thats a little excessive. He is doing a decent job (aside from the character bazaar bit), and the majority of the threads he has locked have been legitimate. He also has a nice sense of humor, so maybe you need to work on that. He's doing his job? Only if his job is agitating the posters. If you spend enough time on the forums you'll see that most of his trolls are personal and have very little to do with rules. He's obviously been around for while and brought his grudges with him to his ISD alt. Somewhere after the 20 or 25th time your attempt to respond to a thread with a well though out response is shot down because he decided to troll the OP after you started typing you start foucusing on how many people he's trolling. Than I decided my time is waisted discussing Eve and it should be spent discussing the real problem. At which point you are added to his trolling list. I'm not just going to set back and take it, I'm going to troll back. Petition is a waist of time, CCP is going to side with their free labor. Moderation can not be discussed because it's corrupt. So I fight back untill each account is banned. Each account that's banned mean one less sub and one less plex to support that sub. $ is the only voice you have. I see no problem with him trolling trolls.
So what if he has a grudge against people who can't follow the rules. |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
100
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 19:37:00 -
[538] - Quote
For the most part the monitoring has seemed ok (or even lax on many occasions) but there have been a few instances where a thread was locked and I was surprised as much worse trolling or insulting threads were left open to go on and on.
Hard to judge really... and you can never make everyone happy. |
|
ISD BiscuitThief
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 20:37:00 -
[539] - Quote
I seem to have chosen a very opportune time to poke my head in and say hi, oh well...
Hi Everyone,
I've just joined the CCL team, you may have seen my face already in a couple of posts, moving them to the right place and general janitorial stuff like that, however, the time has come for me to come clean about my past.
As a player, I've been here since early 2004, created my second account that same year and have been playing pretty much constantly since (everyone takes a break once or twice though right?). I decided that EVE has given me enough over the last 8 years, and that I'd like to give it a little back.
Obviously I'll be spending my time here trying to make the forums a nicer place, and I'd like to make it clear from the outset that I have no axe to grind, but please bear with me as I find my feet and work out the difference between the like button and the lock button :)
BiscuitThief
ISD BiscuitThief Ensign Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department |
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
712
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 23:57:00 -
[540] - Quote
Ah, so your the reason, I have yet to find a biscuit in New Eden.
Suppose its better to be a janitor then a test dummy as well. But good luck on your first lock.
Can you do me a favor as well, and erase all of Pipa Porto's posts in all of the eve forums? I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
|
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 01:23:00 -
[541] - Quote
I'd really appreciate an answer to this question:
Why on earth hasn't the James 315 for CSM as hi-sec representative been moved from General Discussion to Jita Park Speakers Corner?
Fake edit: just moved, took nearly 23 hours.
This is frustrating for those who do try to post responsibly.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
|
ISD Praetoxx
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 06:22:00 -
[542] - Quote
Well, let's get this over and done with!
I am ISD Praetoxx, one of the newest additions to the CCL team. Having played EVE for several years I am glad to be able to give something back to the community and help to make it a better place for everyone, both new and old pilots alike. I have experienced first hand the aggro that fellow capsuleers have had to endure over the years both in-game and out. Times are changing and the path before us only leads upward. There has never been a better time to get involved with the community and take a proactive role in New Eden.
Spread the word, tell your friends, tell your wife, tell your imaginary girlfriend. EVE is where it's happening and they don't want to miss the fun!
My EVE career started out in late 2004 flying my trusty Cormorant doing L2 missions. Of course, at this point in the game I was completely unaware of how to fit my ship correctly or just what exactly I was supposed to be training for. Remember the days of Learning Skills to boost your skill training speed? Yeah, I never knew about those for the first 2 years. I can say that and be proud of it! At one point I remember fitting all 3 types of reppers to it (shield, armor and hull) so that I wouldn't get killed. That and I liked the graphic effects of the hull repper.
It wasn't until I joined a decent corporation and they showed me the error of my ways that my true adventure into the world of EVE started.
Fast forward about 7 years and I am now a top ranking officer in a very well established corporation. I am flying with several other accounts involved in almost every aspect EVE has to offer. One more account can't hurt right?
I am sure I will see many of you on my adventures on the forums, and you will see a lot of me as I take part in your discussions!
Until we meet again my fellow pod pilot's.
- ISD Praetoxx ISD Praetoxx Ensign Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department |
|
Lord Zim
1292
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 12:43:00 -
[543] - Quote
I'm going to just make yet another note in this thread, expressing my concern over the complete lack of feedback which is available if someone were to have their posts either deleted or edited by someone on the mod team. I've made a few posts over the last couple of months, and the only reason I've seen that a few of them have been edited or deleted is because I've been actively monitoring a specific thread where it happened. Apart from that, I am absolutely clueless, and as such there is absolutely no feedback to me (or anyone else) what they may or may not have done wrong, there's absolutely no recourse to dispute the removal or edit of a post (since we generally have absolutely no clue it has happened).
Is there any plans at all to rectify this, or will we have to either just assume all our posts are unmolested/undeleted, or will we have to regularly go through all our posts the last 2 weeks to see if there's any posts there which we're missing or has been edited? |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
714
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 13:30:00 -
[544] - Quote
I am here to testify that all my deleted or edited posts, were all justified. And were done on a fair basis.
Look forward to more inspirational posters on how to post well. Thanks to my probation sentence punishments. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 20:46:00 -
[545] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:I'd really appreciate an answer to this question: Why on earth hasn't the James 315 for CSM as hi-sec representative been moved from General Discussion to Jita Park Speakers Corner? Fake edit: just moved, took nearly 23 hours. This is frustrating for those who do try to post responsibly.
Hi Gulftobay,
I would like to apologize that you found our response time frustrating, I am grateful that you maintained a responsible attitude in the meantime.
I can only attempt to justify it by stating that we are as of yet a small team, and we can only cover so-much timezone.
We would be very happy to receive more applications to the volunteer programme to help with this, however! ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
192
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 07:55:00 -
[546] - Quote
Why aren't ISD consistent, i see quite minor infractions banned ore locked yet when a player says that another should "die badly" its ignored ?
ISD have been in the thread to move it but seemed to ignore the off topic, no content trolling which is very offensive and slightly creepy tbh
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1890739#post1890739
P.S that thread should not have been moved as you have now killed it, and it was a general discussion on solo play. Please move it back, or be consistent and move every thread discussing the game and how it should be played into the Ideas forum.
Tal -áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
|
ISD BiscuitThief
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 08:02:00 -
[547] - Quote
Rats wrote: ISD have been in the thread to move it but seemed to ignore the off topic, no content trolling which is very offensive and slightly creepy tbh
Oops, my bad, I'll go take another look through that thread now. Sorry if I left anything in there which should have been removed. If anyone thinks I miss something in the future (in any threads), please go right ahead and report the offending posts, so that we can go straight to them and check them out.
ISD BiscuitThief Ensign Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department |
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1289
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 18:53:00 -
[548] - Quote
Rats wrote:Why aren't ISD consistent, i see quite minor infractions banned or locked yet when a player says that another should "die badly" its ignored ? ISD have been in the thread to move it but seemed to ignore the off topic, no content trolling which is very offensive and slightly creepy tbh https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1890739#post1890739P.S that thread should not have been moved as you have now killed it, and it was a general discussion on solo play. Please move it back, or be consistent and move every thread discussing the game and how it should be played into the Ideas forum. Tal It is possible to miss a post.
Thats why, if I find something that I would moderate if I were an ISD, I use the report feature. |
Talus Veran
Valis Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 23:07:00 -
[549] - Quote
So much DRAMA in this thread (or on the Forums in General) "Zee Goggles, Zey Do Nothing!"
Message me on Twitter-á-á @talus_veran I follow -á #eveonline-á &-á #tweetfleet |
Pipa Porto
890
|
Posted - 2012.09.09 14:59:00 -
[550] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=149117&p=26
This isn't how GD works. You don't get to have your thread locked just because you're losing the argument. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1294
|
Posted - 2012.09.09 22:55:00 -
[551] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=149117&p=26
This isn't how GD works. You don't get to have your thread locked just because you're losing the argument. However it is standard policy to do so at the request of the OP.
Can't stand it, but its official. |
Pipa Porto
891
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 05:17:00 -
[552] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=149117&p=26
This isn't how GD works. You don't get to have your thread locked just because you're losing the argument. However it is standard policy to do so at the request of the OP. Can't stand it, but its official.
Really? You're kidding. That's their official policy?*
Combine that with the ban on resurrecting locked threads and there's some great potential there for getting the mods to troll for you.
*P.S. Any chance it's a public policy that you can link to? I mean, I know CCP and the idea of Publishing Policies and Rules aren't great friends, but... EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
206
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 11:35:00 -
[553] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Rats wrote:Why aren't ISD consistent, i see quite minor infractions banned or locked yet when a player says that another should "die badly" its ignored ? ISD have been in the thread to move it but seemed to ignore the off topic, no content trolling which is very offensive and slightly creepy tbh https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1890739#post1890739P.S that thread should not have been moved as you have now killed it, and it was a general discussion on solo play. Please move it back, or be consistent and move every thread discussing the game and how it should be played into the Ideas forum. Tal It is possible to miss a post. Thats why, if I find something that I would moderate if I were an ISD, I use the report feature.
Bully for you, but as ISD already came back to me in this thread that is here to discuss moderation then your input isn't needed.
Thanks anyway
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1299
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 18:50:00 -
[554] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=149117&p=26
This isn't how GD works. You don't get to have your thread locked just because you're losing the argument. However it is standard policy to do so at the request of the OP. Can't stand it, but its official. Really? You're kidding. That's their official policy?* Combine that with the ban on resurrecting locked threads and there's some great potential there for getting the mods to troll for you. *P.S. Any chance it's a public policy that you can link to? I mean, I know CCP and the idea of Publishing Policies and Rules aren't great friends, but... I remember it from the old forum, but a search isn't leading me anywhere helpful.
All I know is, they have been doing it for a while. If the OP requests a lock, a lock is received. |
Pipa Porto
891
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 00:45:00 -
[555] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=149117&p=26
This isn't how GD works. You don't get to have your thread locked just because you're losing the argument. However it is standard policy to do so at the request of the OP. Can't stand it, but its official. Really? You're kidding. That's their official policy?* Combine that with the ban on resurrecting locked threads and there's some great potential there for getting the mods to troll for you. *P.S. Any chance it's a public policy that you can link to? I mean, I know CCP and the idea of Publishing Policies and Rules aren't great friends, but... I remember it from the old forum, but a search isn't leading me anywhere helpful. All I know is, they have been doing it for a while. If the OP requests a lock, a lock is received.
I wasn't doubting you, it's the exact type of insanity that I kind of expect from CCP's forum policies. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Quaaid
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
127
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 23:34:00 -
[556] - Quote
If you can get the ISDs to get more in line with how Suvetar is handling things, you stand a chance. There is a distinct tone resonating with a few of the ISD that is edgier than the community will be receptive to. When you can tell an ISD is either growing impatient and/or taking a sadist pleasure in their tone while moderating then they (and their actions by proxy) are going to be hated.
More Suvetar, less Type40. I can't even watch Dr. Who now without feeling bad about myself now. |
|
ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 00:31:00 -
[557] - Quote
Salutation EVE Community
I am one of your brand new volunteers', and I am looking forward to helping out the EVE players base in any way I can. First things first, I am one of you. Although I have been playing EVE for years; I am by no means the end all in EVE lore or knowledge, I make no claims to be, and I will strive to provide the players accurate, timely, helpful information. I am also looking forward to interacting with the expansive EVE community in an effort to give back a little of what was freely given to me.
See you in the forums! ISD Flidais Asagiri Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1724
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 01:22:00 -
[558] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:I'd really appreciate an answer to this question: Why on earth hasn't the James 315 for CSM as hi-sec representative been moved from General Discussion to Jita Park Speakers Corner? Fake edit: just moved, took nearly 23 hours. This is frustrating for those who do try to post responsibly. Better question is why was that thread locked?
I reported this bizarre locking of James 315's CSM candidacy thread, but the thread is still locked and the mod who did it is still a mod, let alone not banned from EVE-O forums like I strongly recommended he should be
kind of curious about the backlog of this stuff, CCP/ISD |
TRUE ZER0
SILENT INC
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 01:29:00 -
[559] - Quote
I log on to evegate in a good mood. Find a couple interesting threads yeah some crappy ones* too. It's never long before 1 of 2 ISD have to interject their self in the thread in some way. Evegate and Eve online are a package deal for a lot of us If one sucks, both suck!
Lets compare this to in game. You're flying along a goon decides to grief you, you have a couple choices for revenge. You could fight back or hire someone to fight for you. An ISD griefs you, have no options! Anything you do will just result in a forum ban and or in game band.
So you get banned what are your options. You can't complain in public about the abuse of power and corruption, it's against the rules.
File a petition? What's the point! If CCP was willing to oppose their free labor, or deal with you fairly any in manner "discussion of moderation is not permitted" wouldn't exist. Gag orders exist for one reason to cover corruption.
I know ISD alts and fanboys disagree, so don't bother responding. We already know who you are and disregard your post just like CCP disregards ours.
As long as ISD exist people like the 2 will sign up. In before lock.
ISD= Forum cancer |
TRUE ZER0
SILENT INC
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 01:32:00 -
[560] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:^^^ ISD Praetoxx wrote:Thread Locked.
Fellow pilots are reminded to keep replies constructive, on-topic and friendly. The forum hamsters will love you for it! I'm confused. How can we reply in a constructive, on-topic, and friendly manner to a locked thread? Did you hit the lock button by accident? Regardless, don't be lazy. Trolling calls for cleaning the thread, not locking it.
Curious, how did eve forums exist for 8 or 9 years before ISD tampering? Old GMs didn't find the need to delete and edit post. In before lock.
ISD= Forum cancer |
|
Quaaid
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 01:35:00 -
[561] - Quote
They need to reinstate lSD Banhammer.
That ***** ruled. |
Pipa Porto
923
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 01:44:00 -
[562] - Quote
TRUE ZER0 wrote:Curious, how did eve forums exist for 8 or 9 years before ISD tampering? Old GMs didn't find the need to delete and edit post.
CCP Zymurgist and the rest of the Community Team at CCP. And they absolutely deleted and edited posts as appropriate. They were just good enough at moderating that they could often re-rail a derailing thread with a good post or two, limiting the need to edit or delete threads. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
ISD Athechu
ISD STAR
50
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 03:38:00 -
[563] - Quote
Hello Everyone,
I'm ISD Athechu I'm not a member of ISD:CCL but of ISD:STAR. For those that don't know the difference CCL are the Forum Moderators. STAR is the Support Training and Resources division of ISD we work mostly in the in-game Help Channels. Just thought that I should introducing myself mostly because I moonlight as a forum moderator to help out the team.
Little bit about me, I have been with the ISD program in STAR for about a year and eight months now. I hold the rank of Commander in STAR. Most of my forum moderation responsibility is in the New Citizens Q&A forum but you may see me from time to time posting in other sections beyond EVE Q&A to help with moderation or answer a question. I am happy to talk about EVE and questions you have about EVE or about the ISD Program and joining it (there are some topics I won't talk about so use common sense) if you are interested.
Well that's it for me I like to keep it short and sweet. See you in the help channels or else where. o/ ISD Athechu Commander ISD STAR (Support Training and Resources) EVE New Citizens Q&A Resources |
|
Pipa Porto
924
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 05:21:00 -
[564] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Hello Everyone,
Since you guys are here, mind bugging your bosses about getting us some feedback when moderation actions affect us? We accept that you may need to edit and delete posts. We do not accept that you need to do it in secret, nor do we trust any EVE players with the ability to do so in secret.
Nobody cared about getting notified when Zymurgist did moderation actions because we did trust him to do a good job and to be judicious in doing his job. It's very clear that the ISD team (if you don't want to be painted with the same brush, get the CCL team a CCL tag) is not being judicious in their moderation. It was looking like they were trying for a while after the debacle in June, but they're moving right back to heavy handed, uneven, and inappropriate moderation. And they're still getting to do it in secret.
Lord Zim wrote:I'm going to just make yet another note in this thread, expressing my concern over the complete lack of feedback which is available if someone were to have their posts either deleted or edited by someone on the mod team. I've made a few posts over the last couple of months, and the only reason I've seen that a few of them have been edited or deleted is because I've been actively monitoring a specific thread where it happened. Apart from that, I am absolutely clueless, and as such there is absolutely no feedback to me (or anyone else) what they may or may not have done wrong, there's absolutely no recourse to dispute the removal or edit of a post (since we generally have absolutely no clue it has happened).
Is there any plans at all to rectify this, or will we have to either just assume all our posts are unmolested/undeleted, or will we have to regularly go through all our posts the last 2 weeks to see if there's any posts there which we're missing or has been edited?
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
ISD Athechu
ISD STAR
50
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 06:02:00 -
[565] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Athechu wrote:Hello Everyone, Since you guys are here, mind bugging your bosses about getting us some feedback when moderation actions affect us? We accept that you may need to edit and delete posts. We do not accept that you need to do it in secret, nor do we trust any EVE players with the ability to do so in secret. Nobody cared about getting notified when Zymurgist did moderation actions because we did trust him to do a good job and to be judicious in doing his job. It's very clear that the ISD team (if you don't want to be painted with the same brush, get the CCL team a CCL tag) is not being judicious in their moderation. It was looking like they were trying for a while after the debacle in June, but they're moving right back to heavy handed, uneven, and inappropriate moderation. And they're still getting to do it in secret. Lord Zim wrote:I'm going to just make yet another note in this thread, expressing my concern over the complete lack of feedback which is available if someone were to have their posts either deleted or edited by someone on the mod team. I've made a few posts over the last couple of months, and the only reason I've seen that a few of them have been edited or deleted is because I've been actively monitoring a specific thread where it happened. Apart from that, I am absolutely clueless, and as such there is absolutely no feedback to me (or anyone else) what they may or may not have done wrong, there's absolutely no recourse to dispute the removal or edit of a post (since we generally have absolutely no clue it has happened).
Is there any plans at all to rectify this, or will we have to either just assume all our posts are unmolested/undeleted, or will we have to regularly go through all our posts the last 2 weeks to see if there's any posts there which we're missing or has been edited?
Each team has it's own corporation that is how you see which division we are in. Anyways I don't care if I'm painted with the same brush i'm just clarifying the difference in teams. I'm only a moonlighter (part-time) so I have no say in policy making for the CCL team, that stays with the teams captains and vice admiral.
As for feedback system best I can do for you is to poke the appropriate people and ask them to reply in here about it. I can't say if they will respond or not but that's the best I can do. The better idea is to just start a thread in F&I (if there isn't one already) about it because I know devs read that section of the forums. Since what you are talking about is an additional feature that needs to be programmed and written into the forum code. ISD Athechu Commander ISD STAR (Support Training and Resources) EVE New Citizens Q&A Resources |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1724
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 06:06:00 -
[566] - Quote
Hey so are any of you going to unlock this thread here James 315 for CSM as hi-sec representative that was locked up for no reason, or is this the thread for ISD officials to simply introduce themselves and debut their uselessness at resolving issues and answering questions? |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 06:53:00 -
[567] - Quote
If ISD is going to keep the peace in the R.I.P threads you have censor all sides. So far all I've seen censored are the anti-religion and let's-hug-the-world-panderers. We need to honor the man for all his contributions and accomplishments. Remove everything else because it's going to troll someone.
|
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 10:42:00 -
[568] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Athechu wrote:Hello Everyone, Since you guys are here, mind bugging your bosses about getting us some feedback when moderation actions affect us? We accept that you may need to edit and delete posts. We do not accept that you need to do it in secret, nor do we trust any EVE players with the ability to do so in secret.
Good morning,
We have made mention of this, both internally and to our chain of command. We actually discussed it as recently as Lord Zim posted his suggestion.
All I can offer you at this point is that it has been raised.
I hope you can see that where it is possible you do get feedback to the level that we can provide. A locked post will have a reply from the appropriate person stating the reason for the lock, An edited post will have a legend saying 'Edit: Reason - Volunteer Name' and a little flag saying Edited by '....'. If we delete posts, we will post in the thread to say that we've cleaned up, and why we've done so.
All of the above is current policy and should be followed at all times, although there may be a time delay between a thread being locked and a reply being posted.
Finally, I hope you can trust any ISD member in their moderation as much as you did Zymurgist, all of my team members have had full training and been subject to rigorous background checks by the GM team.
As I've stated before, if you believe that we have been anything less then impartial, then please either report the post in question, or raise a petition; I can assure you that all such reports are dealt with by the CCP Community team.
Lastly, as a matter of interest - are you aware of any standard forum software that tells users when their posts are moved, edited or deleted ? I am interested in understanding the features that are available, so that I can be better informed in our internal discussions about this.
Thanks and fly safe. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 10:54:00 -
[569] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:If ISD is going to keep the peace in the R.I.P threads you have censor all sides. So far all I've seen censored are the anti-religion and let's-hug-the-world-panderers. We need to honor the man for all his contributions and accomplishments. Remove everything else because it's going to troll someone.
Hi,
I can personally assure you that we have removed a number of distasteful and frankly disgusting posts in the last 24 hours. We have no intention of censoring anything, that is not our role here.
If we have ventured into politics it has only been where some forum denizens have entered into stereotypical and racial slurs against cultural groups.
I ask of you at this difficult time to appreciate that we're trying to balance between helping people to mark their condolences whilst ensuring that no single person or group is being victimized or otherwise.
Please use the report button to help us to do our job.
Thanks and fly safe. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 11:28:00 -
[570] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Hey so are any of you going to unlock this thread here James 315 for CSM as hi-sec representative that was locked up for no reason, or is this the thread for ISD officials to simply introduce themselves and debut their uselessness at resolving issues and answering questions?
Hi Nicolo,
This discussion isn't here to simply reverse decisions that were unfavorable to certain people, I'm sorry if that was the impression you received.
The thread in question was reviewed multiple times and each time, we reached the same conclusion, it needed to be locked.
Thanks and fly safe. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 13:37:00 -
[571] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:If ISD is going to keep the peace in the R.I.P threads you have censor all sides. So far all I've seen censored are the anti-religion and let's-hug-the-world-panderers. We need to honor the man for all his contributions and accomplishments. Remove everything else because it's going to troll someone.
Seems that several words I intended to be in one sentence of the post are not there. It was supposed to have read:
So far all I've seen censored are the anti-religion and not the let's-hug-the-world-panderers.
And frankly - if you alter a person's post in any manner - that is censorship. It doesn't matter what the motivation is (good or "bad") or the outcome.
|
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
142
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 13:46:00 -
[572] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:If ISD is going to keep the peace in the R.I.P threads you have censor all sides. So far all I've seen censored are the anti-religion and let's-hug-the-world-panderers. We need to honor the man for all his contributions and accomplishments. Remove everything else because it's going to troll someone.
Seems that several words I intended to be in one sentence of the post are not there. It was supposed to have read: So far all I've seen censored are the anti-religion and not the let's-hug-the-world-panderers. And frankly - if you alter a person's post in any manner - that is censorship. It doesn't matter what the motivation is (good or "bad") or the outcome.
As said above:
Quote:Please use the report button to help us to do our job.
If you think we censor posts / threads, file a petition. If you step over the line in a R.I.P. thread your post will be altered and if needed removed. If you post in a civil manner that doesnt break a forum rule, there is nothing to worry about. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 13:56:00 -
[573] - Quote
I find it hilarious that what you think you are doing is not censorship.
I'm adding this to be clear - I think keeping the R.I.P threads cleaned up of inflammatory comments is a good thing. IHMO. I just wanted to point out that *anything* beyond expressions of condolences and praise for the person could be a trolling attempt.
And yes, I flagged several of the posts. I know where that wee little flag is.
Edit: Clarity |
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
142
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 14:03:00 -
[574] - Quote
This a privatly run message board, it is not Hyde Parks's speaking corner, people tend to forget that.
I agree, trolling comments could be hidden in each and every comment. If we do not spot them right away, there is always the chance that it is get reported and we look into it. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Lord Ryan
True Xero
596
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 15:48:00 -
[575] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:This a privatly run message board, it is not Hyde Parks's speaking corner, people tend to forget that. I agree, trolling comments could be hidden in each and every comment. If we do not spot them right away, there is always the chance that it gets reported and we look into it. "I agree, trolling comments could be hidden in each and every comment." you mean like the one quoted above? Yes it's private and appears we are paying for the privilege of being trolled by you. Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Pipa Porto
927
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 17:42:00 -
[576] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:All I can offer you at this point is that it has been raised.
I hope you can see that where it is possible you do get feedback to the level that we can provide. A locked post will have a reply from the appropriate person stating the reason for the lock, An edited post will have a legend saying 'Edit: Reason - Volunteer Name' and a little flag saying Edited by '....'. If we delete posts, we will post in the thread to say that we've cleaned up, and why we've done so.
All of the above is current policy and should be followed at all times, although there may be a time delay between a thread being locked and a reply being posted.
Thank you for raising the issue.
The Edited by tag is woefully insufficient, so is a post saying that you've deleted posts because neither tell the person whose post you've edited or deleted that their specific post has been altered or removed. This means that people don't necessarily know if they're breaking the rules unless they're obsessive enough to regularly check every post of theirs. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Quaaid
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
130
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 21:11:00 -
[577] - Quote
Am I really reading an argument over "if editing and/or deleting posts is censorship"?
Like... holy ****.... really? Is it not as plain as day? Don't get me wrong, I understand the necessity and not arguing for or against Censoring the forums, I just don't understand how it is not crystal clear to someone that what they are being tasked to do is to Censor and I need to explain it clearly.
Does editing and/or deleting the thoughts and words of others not qualify as censorship to you? What is censorship if not that?
ISD TEST:
When there is a black bar over naked people on public television, what is that called? ________________
Tyoe the word "****" and hit post.. why does it not say "****" anymore? _____________
Delete or change someones post and the context or even ability for it to be seen is forever lost, what do we call this? ___________
If you answered anything except censoring, then you are a qualified ISD. |
Pipa Porto
929
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 22:49:00 -
[578] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:If you think we censor posts / threads, file a petition. If you step over the line in a R.I.P. thread your post will be altered and if needed removed.
You're participating in censorship every time you perform a moderation action that wasn't specifically asked for by the posters affected by it.
If you think otherwise, I suggest you speak to Mr. Webster and register your complaints with him (or being that time travel/speaking with the dead is hard, the Merriam-Webster company).
That does not mean that that censorship is always uncalled for or that it is a bad thing. But please, don't pretend that editing or deleting someone else's speech is not censorship. It just makes you look silly. Like asking us to file a petition for every moderation action you perform.
Quote:If you post in a civil manner that doesnt break a forum rule, there is nothing to worry about.
So which rule did the OP of the James 315 CSM thread break? Because the trolling of a thread by other people calls for cleaning, not locking (or are you suggesting that your policy is to reward trolls by punishing their victims?). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
63
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 23:37:00 -
[579] - Quote
Hi,
I'd like to put this down in simple terms without resorting to word-play to make points here.
One of the jobs of the CCL team is to enforce CCPs mandated terms of usage via the forum rules.
These are private forums and CCP have extended the right to limit what gets posted upon them. In order to do so, the terms of usage state in no-uncertain terms that they reserve the right to Edit, Limit or remove any content posted to the forums at their discretion.
I encourage you to read the Forum Rules and in particular the Website Terms of use.
Thanks, and as always, please fly safe. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
929
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 01:28:00 -
[580] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:These are private forums and CCP have extended the right to limit what gets posted upon them. In order to do so, the terms of usage state in no-uncertain terms that they reserve the right to Edit, Limit or remove any content posted to the forums at their discretion.
Where did anyone claim otherwise? We're just calling out ISD Eshtir on his insistance that a spade is, in fact, a fork. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
Smee1
the united Negative Ten.
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:00:00 -
[581] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153773&find=unread
My point exactly. We must sit back like mutes and let idiots with powertrips moderate as they like no questions.
I get it now we must not have opinions the ISD dont agree with or it gets moderated right out the door.
These forums are getting unreadable with every other post sniped for trivial reasons. Its utter bullshit and now i cant voice my concerns or opinions on said forum cause the idiots just lock it. |
Smee1
the united Negative Ten.
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:06:00 -
[582] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi, I'd like to put this down in simple terms without resorting to word-play to make points here. One of the jobs of the CCL team is to enforce CCPs mandated terms of usage via the forum rules. These are private forums and CCP have extended the right to limit what gets posted upon them. In order to do so, the terms of usage state in no-uncertain terms that they reserve the right to Edit, Limit or remove any content posted to the forums at their discretion. I encourage you to read the Forum Rules and in particular the Website Terms of use. Thanks, and as always, please fly safe.
Moderate what needs moderated and quit the bull snipping that makes the ability to follow a thread impossible. Wind ur neck in from ur newly found powertrip and do your job. All i see is CENSORING and removing ppls freedom of speech. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
352
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:11:00 -
[583] - Quote
Pipa Porto for CSM.
On a serious note, the censorship is getting to be a bit much. You can't hide behind the guise of "it's company policy." That's as bad as the banks we have to deal with every day when they pull out some hidden fee.
As a small business so involved with its community and so willing to listen to it, work with it, and have a beer with it, you should consider something; If a large portion of your paying customer base has a problem with a policy, review the policy.
It wouldn't take a massive amount of resources to research into policy implementation for ISD and forum rules, make it more robust, more detailed, or even less detailed. It's just a matter of going back to the underlying machine driving these unwarranted bans and saying, "Hmmm...maybe this rule is a little to open to interpretation."
And, I'm sorry to be rude but, just saying "It's a private forum and it's our policy" is equivalent to "deal with it." Why not just get rid of ship spinning again and show players the door? You're doing it verbally, just go all out. |
Smee1
the united Negative Ten.
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:14:00 -
[584] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pipa Porto for CSM.
On a serious note, the censorship is getting to be a bit much. You can't hide behind the guise of "it's company policy." That's as bad as the banks we have to deal with every day when they pull out some hidden fee.
As a small business so involved with its community and so willing to listen to it, work with it, and have a beer with it, you should consider something; If a large portion of your paying customer base has a problem with a policy, review the policy.
It wouldn't take a massive amount of resources to research into policy implementation for ISD and forum rules, make it more robust, more detailed, or even less detailed. It's just a matter of going back to the underlying machine driving these unwarranted bans and saying, "Hmmm...maybe this rule is a little to open to interpretation."
And, I'm sorry to be rude but, just saying "It's a private forum and it's our policy" is equivalent to "deal with it." Why not just get rid of ship spinning again and show players the door? You're doing it verbally, just go all out.
QFT
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
738
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:58:00 -
[585] - Quote
Smee1 wrote:
These forums are getting unreadable with every other post sniped for trivial reasons. Its utter bullshit and now i cant voice my concerns or opinions on said forum cause the idiots just lock it.
Just do what I do, when that happens. Tell yourself the players just don't deserve to hear what you have to offer. They just aren't grown up enough, or just enjoy childish endeavors too much still. (Helps explain the threads about avatars)
Also try to look at the bright side of things more often. Why just this evening, ISD, inspired me to start adding rumor mongering to my repertoire. That is something, I thought I never would be. It is indeed a sandbox now, it is indeed a sandbox. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Skogen Gump
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
115
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 13:01:00 -
[586] - Quote
Smee1 wrote:
These forums are getting unreadable with every other post sniped for trivial reasons. Its utter bull and now i cant voice my concerns or opinions on said forum cause the idiots just lock it.
Umm, apart from violating the no swearing rule - what are you doing right now?
You're voicing your concerns and opinions on 'said forum' and you haven't been locked or censored have you?
No, didn't think so. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
738
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 13:07:00 -
[587] - Quote
For example in my last post which I was being a terrible troll, and doing rumour mongering. I linked this article.
About growing up
Which is an interviewish article with CCP saying, how them growing up helped them handle their problems better with dealing with the community. Perhaps we too should learn from this, and grow up a little bit. But First I practice or hopefully attempt to learn new skills, then I shall ride the train of maturity till the tracks end. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 13:31:00 -
[588] - Quote
This is funny...
I find that CCP have purposefuly fostered smacktalking, scamming, and general poor behaviour as a key point in there game with slogans such as "HTFU"
But now they are having to take measures to prevent this very thing on there own forums.
"You cannot play God then wash your hands of the things you created"
You created this playerbase CCP, did you not see this coming?
So my question is this, considering the current state of your forums and all you have encouraged over the years in an attempt to set yourselves apart from other game companies, was it worth it?
In addition, and more on track for this forum, It was mentioned by a member of the ISD earlier in this thread that they play the game and that you may see them in game and not know it, in light of this what guarantee do you provide that in-game vendettas will not spill over into the forum, and I won't be punished for blowing up an ISD volunteer for example. |
|
ISD Praetoxx
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
94
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 13:52:00 -
[589] - Quote
Just for the record, I would like to add that the CCL team is watched very closely by CCP and if/when required, CCP will intervene should they feel it necessary, this includes speaking with CCL members IF they should step over the line. We do not have free reign on the forums to moderate threads as we please. CCP has laid down strict rules and policies that all ISD members agreed to follow and uphold when they volunteered to join the program. Like you, we love the game and love the community. We are trying to do our part to make it better for everyone.
To some pilots, it may seem like we are just abusing our 'powers' and editing threads/posts as we see fit. This is not the case and could not be further from the truth.
EVE Online has a PEGI 12 rating, and as such, CCP have a legal obligation to ensure that any content contained within the game (forums/website included) is suitable for persons aged as young as 12 years old. EVE provides a great opportunity for families to enjoy the game and above all else, EVE Online provides an escape from all the stresses that RL throws at us. Why would you want to come home after a long day at the office, just to sign onto the forums to read a bunch of threads that seem to represent your day at the office.
Come home, UNPLUG from the hectic day, and enjoy your evening blowing up space ships, or mining an asteroid belt with your corporation. Explore the depths of a wormhole you just discovered. Leave all the aggro and stress at the door.
The next time your post/thread is moderated. Take a good look at it and have a think about why it was moderated. How would others view it, would they be offended? Is it suitable for a 12 year old? Is it even understandable?
I hope I have been successful in defusing alot of the hate and misunderstanding toward the ISD's. Please take a moment to try and understand that what we are doing is for the benefit of the entire community. Even 12 year old Timmy who cannot wait to fly his first Falcon.
Fly safe and post smart! ISD Praetoxx Ensign Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department |
|
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
353
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 14:04:00 -
[590] - Quote
ISD Praetoxx wrote:Just for the record, I would like to add that the CCL team is watched very closely by CCP and if/when required, CCP will intervene should they feel it necessary, this includes speaking with CCL members IF they should step over the line. We do not have free reign on the forums to moderate threads as we please. CCP has laid down strict rules and policies that all ISD members agreed to follow and uphold when they volunteered to join the program, this includes having our main characters closely monitored by CCP for any hint of foul play or breach of the rules. We are governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else
Like you, we love the game and love the community. We are trying to do our part to make it better for everyone.
To some pilots, it may seem like we are just abusing our 'powers' and editing threads/posts as we see fit. This is not the case and could not be further from the truth..
And I'm sure CCP does moderate you. I and others are in no way saying you moderate as a method of vendetta for other actions in game or question your love of Internet Spaceships. You and the ISD/CCL are doing your jobs and you're following the policies set forth to you and doing so damn well. It's not necessarily you, but the policies themselves that CCP set forth that may have issues
Quote:EVE Online has a PEGI 12 rating, and as such, CCP have a legal obligation to ensure that any content contained within the game (forums/website included) is suitable for persons aged as young as 12 years old.
The ESRB does not rate online interactions. I can't speak for PEGI, but at least in the states, the forums and content made by other players, whether E, T, or M rated content, is not your responsibility (legally anyway...to an extent i.e. pr0nz, gore, etc)
Quote:EVE provides a great opportunity for families to enjoy the game and above all else, EVE Online provides an escape from all the stresses that RL throws at us. Why would you want to come home after a long day at the office, just to sign onto the forums to read a bunch of threads that seem to represent your day at the office.
The threads aren't really representative as a day of the office though. People fight and debate, and do it for fun. Some people simply enjoy debating for the sake for the sake of it. Why not let them to an extent? And there again in lies the problem; policy and definition of what is and is not acceptable may be too broadly defined and not exact enough.
Quote:The next time your post/thread is moderated. Take a good look at it and have a think about why it was moderated. How would others view it, would they be offended? Is it suitable for a 12 year old? Is it even understandable?
Again, rage threads or threads questioning game action, the community, or individual action does not call for censoring for the kids. Online interactions and content does not and should not be censored. You are responsible for the game content, the actual game, not our speech.
Quote:Even 12 year old Timmy who cannot wait to fly his first Falcon. And you say you do it for the kids...for shame... |
|
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 14:14:00 -
[591] - Quote
The problem is CCP created a product that generally is stressful, difficult and hectic, they don't discourage suicide ganking for example which is lets face it only a means to annoy others, they encourage scamming and other anti-social activities, and have slogans like I said before "HTFU" do you consider this slogan appropriate for 12 year old players?
As I see it, this community is exactly what CCP fostered it to be, so did they make a mistake? Are the ISD a prelude to major game changes/company changes in the future to bring the game closer to the 12 year old rating? |
|
ISD Praetoxx
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
100
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 14:18:00 -
[592] - Quote
I understand your points of view and thank you for the constructive posts. ISD Praetoxx Ensign Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department |
|
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 14:24:00 -
[593] - Quote
ISD Praetoxx wrote:I understand your points of view and thank you for the constructive posts.
And thank you, good luck in your post as ISD. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
353
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 14:34:00 -
[594] - Quote
Hiro Ceffoe wrote: I feel the opposite, In my office everyone is nice and polite because it's a proffesional prerequisite, I come to EVE because it is harsh and unforgiving, people in EVE may hate me and I may hate them but it's all in a sandbox where nobody gets hurt. If I don't want that in a game I would go play a different game.
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is, CCP need to settle on a direction before they can presume to tell there playerbase what that direction is, you cannot foster cruelty and then complain when people are cruel.
All of my this. Are we HTFU Online or Hello Kitty Online? Or are we a balance of the two?
|
|
ISD Praetoxx
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
104
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 14:55:00 -
[595] - Quote
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:ISD Praetoxx wrote:I understand your points of view and thank you for the constructive posts. And thank you, good luck in your post as ISD.
My place or yours? ISD Praetoxx Ensign Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department |
|
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 15:08:00 -
[596] - Quote
ISD Praetoxx wrote:My place or yours?
Depends, did CCP furnish you with shiny new digs or Is it one of those places with the leaky celing?
I sense continuation of this conversation would be considered innapropriate for EVEs target audience |
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
132
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 16:57:00 -
[597] - Quote
Ban all ISDs!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 17:11:00 -
[598] - Quote
ISD Praetoxx wrote:
EVE Online has a PEGI 12 rating, and as such, CCP have a legal obligation to ensure that any content contained within the game (forums/website included) is suitable for persons aged as young as 12 years old.
Wait, wait, excuse me while I get my laughter and tears under control... ok.. thanks.
Frankly there is NO WAY EVE should be played by anyone younger than 16, and I'd even say 18 would probably be appropriate. The game itself is okay for 12 year old, but the in-game community is a septic minefield. I've seen/heard every form of debauchery known to the human race displayed in the game. As an earlier poster mentioned - CCP reaps what it sows.
Which brings in a very, very interesting question - anyone want to take a guess how the fan is going to take the incredibly huge incoming hit from Dust? It's one thing to have mature content programmed into a game, it's another when a parent sees' or hears EVE's chat channels played out on the home big screen by EVE's best trollers (not to overlook the real ped's that are there as well).
|
RomeStar
Astra Research
45
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 17:21:00 -
[599] - Quote
Answer me this... I recetnly commented on a post about F2P inwhich I mentioned World Of Tanks and how much fun it is to play then I typed "W_O_P" with no space between letters which stands for World of Planes and guess what it was censored. Why was that censored on my post Im really curious. I understand some moderation but for crying out loud Signatured removed, CCP Phantom |
Smee1
the united Negative Ten.
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 00:22:00 -
[600] - Quote
ISD Praetoxx wrote:Just for the record, I would like to add that the CCL team is watched very closely by CCP and if/when required, CCP will intervene should they feel it necessary, this includes speaking with CCL members IF they should step over the line. We do not have free reign on the forums to moderate threads as we please. CCP has laid down strict rules and policies that all ISD members agreed to follow and uphold when they volunteered to join the program, this includes having our main characters closely monitored by CCP for any hint of foul play or breach of the rules. We are governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else.
Like you, we love the game and love the community. We are trying to do our part to make it better for everyone.
To some pilots, it may seem like we are just abusing our 'powers' and editing threads/posts as we see fit. This is not the case and could not be further from the truth.
EVE Online has a PEGI 12 rating, and as such, CCP have a legal obligation to ensure that any content contained within the game (forums/website included) is suitable for persons aged as young as 12 years old. EVE provides a great opportunity for families to enjoy the game and above all else, EVE Online provides an escape from all the stresses that RL throws at us. Why would you want to come home after a long day at the office, just to sign onto the forums to read a bunch of threads that seem to represent your day at the office.
Come home, UNPLUG from the hectic day, and enjoy your evening blowing up space ships, or mining an asteroid belt with your corporation. Explore the depths of a wormhole you just discovered. Leave all the aggro and stress at the door.
The next time your post/thread is moderated. Take a good look at it and have a think about why it was moderated. How would others view it, would they be offended? Is it suitable for a 12 year old? Is it even understandable?
I hope I have been successful in defusing alot of the hate and misunderstanding toward the ISD's. Please take a moment to try and understand that what we are doing is for the benefit of the entire community. Even 12 year old Timmy who cannot wait to fly his first Falcon.
Fly safe and post smart!
|
|
Pipa Porto
938
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 03:10:00 -
[601] - Quote
ISD Praetoxx wrote:Just for the record, I would like to add that the CCL team is watched very closely by CCP and if/when required, CCP will intervene should they feel it necessary, this includes speaking with CCL members IF they should step over the line. We do not have free reign on the forums to moderate threads as we please. CCP has laid down strict rules and policies that all ISD members agreed to follow and uphold when they volunteered to join the program, this includes having our main characters closely monitored by CCP for any hint of foul play or breach of the rules. We are governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else.
So, you're saying that a CCP employee checks every single moderation action you take and takes time to review it for appropriateness?
If not, why have we been denied the tools necessary to detect your moderation actions and report inappropriate ones?
Quote:EVE Online has a PEGI 12 rating, and as such, CCP have a legal obligation to ensure that any content contained within the game (forums/website included) is suitable for persons aged as young as 12 years old. EVE provides a great opportunity for families to enjoy the game and above all else, EVE Online provides an escape from all the stresses that RL throws at us. Why would you want to come home after a long day at the office, just to sign onto the forums to read a bunch of threads that seem to represent your day at the office.
PEGI Online Code wrote:Removal of inappropriate content License holders will use their best endeavours to ensure that online services under their control are kept free of content which is illegal, offensive, racist, degrading, corrupting, threatening, obscene or which might permanently impair the development of young people.
So, you're ready to explain how every one of your moderation actions was to remove content that would have "permanently impaired the development of young people" or how it specifically fits into one of the other categories there? If you're not, you can go ahead and stop waving your "it's PEGI's fault*" flag.
Nobody's arguing with CCP's right to remove cursing, National Socialist (their 4 letter acronym get's x'd out) references, threats, etc. We are saying that ISDs have a tendency to run well past that standard. We are simply asking for a mechanism to allow us to efficiently respond to overreach by ISDs.
*CCP is under no obligation to maintain a PEGI 12 rating. They can easily get themselves rated at something higher which might be more appropriate for the nature of EVE Online's average player age (IIRC, something like 28 years old).
Quote:The next time your post/thread is moderated. Take a good look at it and have a think about why it was moderated. How would others view it, would they be offended? Is it suitable for a 12 year old? Is it even understandable?
I hope I have been successful in defusing alot of the hate and misunderstanding toward the ISD's. Please take a moment to try and understand that what we are doing is for the benefit of the entire community. Even 12 year old Timmy who cannot wait to fly his first Falcon.
Fly safe and post smart!
I have no idea if my post gets moderated. I'm not obsessive compulsive and I do not regularly comb my posting history with EVE-Search open in another window to cross-reference for deleted posts. At the moment, that's what is required to discover moderation actions affecting your posts.
Anyway, I'll try this again, We are not talking about the moderation of obscene material. We're all on board with that.
We're talking about the instances where moderation stifles active discussion simply because it might be a contentious topic. One recent example would be the James 315 CSM thread, where (once it got moved to the appropriate location) was perfectly in line with the forum rules (aside from the trolls trying to derail the thread). Is it CCP's policy to reward such trolls by locking threads that said trolls are trying to get locked? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
938
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 03:13:00 -
[602] - Quote
RomeStar wrote:Answer me this... I recetnly commented on a post about F2P inwhich I mentioned World Of Tanks and how much fun it is to play then I typed "W_O_P" with no space between letters which stands for World of Planes and guess what it was censored. Why was that censored on my post Im really curious. I understand some moderation but for crying out loud
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/***
Your name, in combination with the obscure racial slur you happen to have a question about strikes me as humorous. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
John'eh
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
11
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 03:45:00 -
[603] - Quote
ISD Type40 is censoring my posts, they are being edited or deleted without my consent and I have been forced to file a petition as a result. I want him punished and want an explanation, as as I feel he is abusing his powers to censor attacks on the goons, as I have tried repeatably to tell people what is going on and all such attempts have been silenced in clear violation of the rules. |
TRUE ZER0
SILENT INC
33
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 04:28:00 -
[604] - Quote
John'eh wrote:ISD Type40 is censoring my posts, they are being edited or deleted without my consent and I have been forced to file a petition as a result. I want him punished and want an explanation, as as I feel he is abusing his powers to censor attacks on the goons, as I have tried repeatably to tell people what is going on and all such attempts have been silenced in clear violation of the rules. Good luck bro. As one of his previous victims I can tell you all your getting is banned. |
John'eh
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
13
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 05:08:00 -
[605] - Quote
The biggest problem I have is that my posts are edited to remove things or to edit what I said, for no reason other than to cast my post in a negative light as otherwise, it wouldn't be anything negative. They have to remove half a sentence to make it seem like anything bad, but they do it, and they they claim the edited version is what set them off even when the ISD guy is the one posting things he shouldnt.. as me.
This is an abuse of power. |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
15
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 05:09:00 -
[606] - Quote
Yeah, that ISD40 needs to go.
After the recent attack on the US embassy I posted some admittedly strong opinions about the current event. Yeah, it was somewhat political (critical of Hillary Clinton and her boss), and I slipped an fbomb in there. OK, I was kind of pissed off, but against the rules, probably right to have been locked.
What I didn't appreciate was ISD40 replacing the post with an accusation of racism. Disliking the president isn't automatically racism, nor is suggesting that Marines should be posted in dangerous Arab nations so they can kill or deter Islamic terrorists.
Yet the entire post was removed, the thread title edited from "Hillary Clinton, Two words: Hire Blackwater. Now." to LOCKED. and a snotty note left behind which implied that I made racial attacks.
These forums have taken a big turn for the worse lately and these new 'enforcers'' are a big part of the problem.
|
Ghazu
181
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 07:29:00 -
[607] - Quote
John'eh wrote:The biggest problem I have is that my posts are edited to remove things or to edit what I said, for no reason other than to cast my post in a negative light as otherwise, it wouldn't be anything negative. They have to remove half a sentence to make it seem like anything bad, but they do it, and they they claim the edited version is what set them off even when the ISD guy is the one posting things he shouldnt.. as me.
This is an abuse of power.
explain this "I posted a thread detailing how goons are profitiing from the alledged death of one of thier members who has a history of faking his own death for Goons benifit, and a member of the ISD is censoring any attempt by me to talk about the subject in a respectfull manner, as I feel the goons are being disrespectfull of the dead and I want to bring the topic up for the community to discuss." do you have any proof, really? a history of faking his death?
apart from breaking many forum rules your post is plain stupid. |
Pipa Porto
938
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 07:49:00 -
[608] - Quote
I want to be clear as well, nobody's arguing that the ISD's shouldn't be deleting the posts and locking the threads of the couple of people who posted above me (besides Ghazu).
John'eh, Bart Starr, and TRUE ZER0, we have EVESearch. We can easily look up your posts and discover exactly what flavor of scum (or scum sympathizer) you are. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
355
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 14:27:00 -
[609] - Quote
Post with your main or dont post at all. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
355
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 14:30:00 -
[610] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:I want to be clear as well, nobody's arguing that the ISD's shouldn't be deleting the posts and locking the threads of the couple of people who posted above me (besides Ghazu).
John'eh, Bart Starr, and TRUE ZER0, we have EVESearch. We can easily look up your posts and discover exactly what flavor of scum (or scum sympathizer) you are.
Scum or not, they have the the right to freedom of speech. By saying person x deserves free speech but not person y as their topic is "scum" (which judging by their descriptions, they aren't), you're just as bad as ISD TYPE40 |
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1307
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 15:55:00 -
[611] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:I want to be clear as well, nobody's arguing that the ISD's shouldn't be deleting the posts and locking the threads of the couple of people who posted above me (besides Ghazu).
John'eh, Bart Starr, and TRUE ZER0, we have EVESearch. We can easily look up your posts and discover exactly what flavor of scum (or scum sympathizer) you are. Scum or not, they have the the right to freedom of speech. By saying person x deserves free speech but not person y as their topic is "scum" (which judging by their descriptions, they aren't), you're just as bad as ISD TYPE40 No they don't.
It is a privilege to post on these forums, not a right. This is a privately owned forum. Rules of any given country do not apply. |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 17:17:00 -
[612] - Quote
I never claimed a right to free speech. I'm just saying these forums are a lot worse since the ISD's showed up. And my post probably did deserve a lock (although in the past political threads in OOPE were usually tolerated for at least a few pages). But being called out as a racist by an ISD, when no racial content was demonstrated is going a bit far. (and no, not everybody knows about EVE Search)
Of course, ISDs do not even enforce their own rules.....
Witness the multiple 'Avatar above me' threadnaughts that are content free. Witness the 'Like and Get Likes' thread.
Clear violations of forum rules, yet tolerated despite complaints. (Oh, but complaint threads are quickly locked.)
So, I am not in favor of strict forum rule enforcement - but I can deal with it. But strict and uneven rule enforcement, combined with ridiculous editing of context......
ISDs must go. |
Pipa Porto
939
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 17:56:00 -
[613] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:I want to be clear as well, nobody's arguing that the ISD's shouldn't be deleting the posts and locking the threads of the couple of people who posted above me (besides Ghazu).
John'eh, Bart Starr, and TRUE ZER0, we have EVESearch. We can easily look up your posts and discover exactly what flavor of scum (or scum sympathizer) you are. Scum or not, they have the the right to freedom of speech. By saying person x deserves free speech but not person y as their topic is "scum" (which judging by their descriptions, they aren't), you're just as bad as ISD TYPE40
The have the right to speech free from any Governmental constraint (at least in countries I'd consider living in). CCP is not a national government. CCP has the right to constrain speech on their private soapbox because that constraint is a form of Speech on CCP's part, and CCP has the right to freely speak.
And calling them scum (check EVESearch and see if you disagree) is the other side of the free speech coin. Freedom of Speech means it's your right to say whatever ignorant drivel you want, AND then it's everyone else's right to shout you off the stage or simply set up another stage across from you and shout the counter to your specific drivel as loud as they can.
Freedom of Speech is not the right to say what you want when you want without social repercussions or being exposed to opposing viewpoints. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
939
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 18:05:00 -
[614] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:I never claimed a right to free speech. I'm just saying these forums are a lot worse since the ISD's showed up. And my post probably did deserve a lock (although in the past political threads in OOPE were usually tolerated for at least a few pages). But being called out as a racist by an ISD, when no racial content was demonstrated is going a bit far. (and no, not everybody knows about EVE Search)
Go to EVESearch, find the post you posted, and re-read the first sentence. It's the 11th post down on the view posts list from your stats page.*
Now, try to figure out why you got called out.
*For normal, civilized people, only do this if you're interested in knowing exactly how far off base Bart is when he claims "No Racial Content." It's pretty standard Tea-Party Rally stuff, if you're American and have heard of that movement. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 02:57:00 -
[615] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Bart Starr wrote:I never claimed a right to free speech. I'm just saying these forums are a lot worse since the ISD's showed up. And my post probably did deserve a lock (although in the past political threads in OOPE were usually tolerated for at least a few pages). But being called out as a racist by an ISD, when no racial content was demonstrated is going a bit far. (and no, not everybody knows about EVE Search) Go to EVESearch, find the post you posted, and re-read the first sentence. It's the 11th post down on the view posts list from your stats page.* Now, try to figure out why you got called out. *For normal, civilized people, only do this if you're interested in knowing exactly how far off base Bart is when he claims "No Racial Content." It's pretty standard Tea-Party Rally stuff, if you're American and have heard of that movement.
OK, read it. Now explain to me where the racism lies? Calling Obama dickless? Calling him a Muslim sympathizer? Saying he cries at the thought of rampaging Libyans being shot dead?
Angry, sure. Political, sure. Lock-worthy, sure. Racist? Not at all. I understand calling people 'racist' makes self-righteous leftwingers instantly pop a boner, but its pretty sad when ISD reps simply slap the label on anything they don't like.
Or when posters start trying to instigate flame wars by calling other posters scumbags. (I believe that is called 'trolling' and is a forum violation - but don't worry, the rules are selectively enforced here)
|
Pipa Porto
945
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 05:41:00 -
[616] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:Or when posters start trying to instigate flame wars by calling other posters scumbags. (I believe that is called 'trolling' and is a forum violation - but don't worry, the rules are selectively enforced here)
Scumbag is truly an ugly insult. Nothing like the glowing and flowery words you limit yourself to in your posting.
So, it's a good thing I never called anyone a scumbag. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 05:55:00 -
[617] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Bart Starr wrote:Or when posters start trying to instigate flame wars by calling other posters scumbags. (I believe that is called 'trolling' and is a forum violation - but don't worry, the rules are selectively enforced here)
Scumbag is truly an ugly insult. Nothing like the glowing and flowery words you limit yourself to in your posting. So, it's a good thing I never called anyone a scumbag.
I put a great deal of care into what I say. You are a bad person and should feel bad for implying otherwise. |
Pipa Porto
945
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 06:05:00 -
[618] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Bart Starr wrote:Or when posters start trying to instigate flame wars by calling other posters scumbags. (I believe that is called 'trolling' and is a forum violation - but don't worry, the rules are selectively enforced here)
Scumbag is truly an ugly insult. Nothing like the glowing and flowery words you limit yourself to in your posting. So, it's a good thing I never called anyone a scumbag. I put a great deal of care into what I say.
Really?
Bart Starr wrote:And my post probably did deserve a lock
Quote:You are a bad person and should feel bad for implying otherwise.
Where have I ever stated that I am not a bad person? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
742
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 13:30:00 -
[619] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Bart Starr wrote:Or when posters start trying to instigate flame wars by calling other posters scumbags. (I believe that is called 'trolling' and is a forum violation - but don't worry, the rules are selectively enforced here)
Scumbag is truly an ugly insult. Nothing like the glowing and flowery words you limit yourself to in your posting. So, it's a good thing I never called anyone a scumbag. I put a great deal of care into what I say. You are a bad person and should feel bad for implying otherwise.
Glen Beck puts a great deal of care into the things you say.
Even if you weren't racist, you were copyrighting the work of Glen Beck without listing him as a source, of your words. Which is itself a violation, one which CCP could be lawsuited over. So the ISD have to censor or edit your posts.
If you don't want that to happen, show proof, Glen Beck gave you permission to use his words and tv shows in the forum. Or at least link to his show, that way you show some respect to him. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Sexy Cakes
Poasting
113
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 18:43:00 -
[620] - Quote
ISD Praetoxx wrote:Just for the record, I would like to add that the CCL team is watched very closely by CCP and if/when required, CCP will intervene should they feel it necessary, this includes speaking with CCL members IF they should step over the line. We do not have free reign on the forums to moderate threads as we please. CCP has laid down strict rules and policies that all ISD members agreed to follow and uphold when they volunteered to join the program, this includes having our main characters closely monitored by CCP for any hint of foul play or breach of the rules. We are governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else.
Like you, we love the game and love the community. We are trying to do our part to make it better for everyone.
To some pilots, it may seem like we are just abusing our 'powers' and editing threads/posts as we see fit. This is not the case and could not be further from the truth.
EVE Online has a PEGI 12 rating, and as such, CCP have a legal obligation to ensure that any content contained within the game (forums/website included) is suitable for persons aged as young as 12 years old. EVE provides a great opportunity for families to enjoy the game and above all else, EVE Online provides an escape from all the stresses that RL throws at us. Why would you want to come home after a long day at the office, just to sign onto the forums to read a bunch of threads that seem to represent your day at the office.
Come home, UNPLUG from the hectic day, and enjoy your evening blowing up space ships, or mining an asteroid belt with your corporation. Explore the depths of a wormhole you just discovered. Leave all the aggro and stress at the door.
The next time your post/thread is moderated. Take a good look at it and have a think about why it was moderated. How would others view it, would they be offended? Is it suitable for a 12 year old? Is it even understandable?
I hope I have been successful in defusing alot of the hate and misunderstanding toward the ISD's. Please take a moment to try and understand that what we are doing is for the benefit of the entire community. Even 12 year old Timmy who cannot wait to fly his first Falcon.
Fly safe and post smart!
Your skill in deflection has increased by 1.
Type40 going on a rulebook crazed nerdfest locking rage had nothing to do with pg-13 anything.
I'm glad to see he's been reined in though.
ISD's moderation has improved in the past 2 weeks, which is to say you've been doing less of it. Not today spaghetti. |
|
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 23:58:00 -
[621] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Bart Starr wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Bart Starr wrote:Or when posters start trying to instigate flame wars by calling other posters scumbags. (I believe that is called 'trolling' and is a forum violation - but don't worry, the rules are selectively enforced here)
Scumbag is truly an ugly insult. Nothing like the glowing and flowery words you limit yourself to in your posting. So, it's a good thing I never called anyone a scumbag. I put a great deal of care into what I say. You are a bad person and should feel bad for implying otherwise. Glen Beck puts a great deal of care into the things you say. Even if you weren't racist, you were copyrighting the work of Glen Beck without listing him as a source, of your words. Which is itself a violation, one which CCP could be lawsuited over. So the ISD have to censor or edit your posts. If you don't want that to happen, show proof, Glen Beck gave you permission to use his words and tv shows in the forum. Or at least link to his show, that way you show some respect to him.
Haha. Easy. Since you don't even know how the name is spelled, its clear you have no idea what is, or is not, said on the show. So, in reality, you'd have no idea if I was copying someone else's ideas or not. But you pretend otherwise, making you a typical internet dumbass. And I'm pretty sure those ideas are coming straight from you - can't think of any media personalities quite that stupid.
But, feel free to provide the link if you think I am incapable of calling our 1-term prez Obama a dickless Muslim sympathizer by myself.
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
742
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 05:38:00 -
[622] - Quote
So, since you do know how to spell it, you do watch it then?
Also most media personalities don't spend a lot of time covering, Copyright issues and content protection. Only when those ideas make it to the big game.
Most likely I would steal ideas from google, or wikipedia, or internet media personalities. But since I don't usually agree with them, it is hard for me to naturally copyright violate them. My disagreements would keep the content from being in its original state.
Who said "our" in the first place? Too bad you are gonna have to enjoy him for another 4 years, while I live a free and comfortable life. Looking forward to your special whining gracing us with its presence on this forum for the next 4 years or so. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
173
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 10:29:00 -
[623] - Quote
As i promised you an ISD Seminar with and about the CCL ISD team. We now have a date and time for it.
Linky!
October 13th 2200 Eve Time
Looking forward to see you there! ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
239
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 12:32:00 -
[624] - Quote
RomeStar wrote:Answer me this... I recetnly commented on a post about F2P inwhich I mentioned World Of Tanks and how much fun it is to play then I typed "W_O_P" with no space between letters which stands for World of Planes and guess what it was censored. Why was that censored on my post Im really curious. I understand some moderation but for crying out loud
W_O_P also a nick name for Italians, probably why is blocked, in this PC gone mad world. I want Peter from Family Guy moderating .... down with PC takes the humor out of life......
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Pipa Porto
961
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:11:00 -
[625] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:As i promised you an ISD Seminar with and about the CCL ISD team. We now have a date and time for it. Linky!October 13th 2200 Eve Time Looking forward to see you there!
I was under the impression that ISD Seminars were for ISDs to improve their skills and understanding. That's why it sounded good when it was announced 2 Months ago*.
TBH, I don't see what value in an outward facing Speech/Town Hall/Symposium/however you have the thing structured has for the goal of improved moderation from the ISD team**.
*I know it was Summer and all that, but seriously?
**Really, the best thing I can think of for that is the same stern instruction many first time posters recieve in other forums: Lurk More. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto
Woof. |
|
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
176
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:15:00 -
[626] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Eshtir wrote:As i promised you an ISD Seminar with and about the CCL ISD team. We now have a date and time for it. Linky!October 13th 2200 Eve Time Looking forward to see you there! I was under the impression that ISD Seminars were for ISDs to improve their skills and understanding. That's why it sounded good when it was announced 2 Months ago*. TBH, I don't see what value in an outward facing Speech/Town Hall/Symposium/however you have the thing structured has for the goal of improved moderation from the ISD team**. *I know it was Summer and all that, but seriously? **Really, the best thing I can think of for that is the same stern instruction many first time posters recieve in other forums: Lurk More.
You do not have to attend if you do not want to. But i know there are some people out there that would love to see this happen, and that is why we do it. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
965
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:20:00 -
[627] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Eshtir wrote:As i promised you an ISD Seminar with and about the CCL ISD team. We now have a date and time for it. Linky!October 13th 2200 Eve Time Looking forward to see you there! I was under the impression that ISD Seminars were for ISDs to improve their skills and understanding. That's why it sounded good when it was announced 2 Months ago*. TBH, I don't see what value in an outward facing Speech/Town Hall/Symposium/however you have the thing structured has for the goal of improved moderation from the ISD team**. *I know it was Summer and all that, but seriously? **Really, the best thing I can think of for that is the same stern instruction many first time posters recieve in other forums: Lurk More. You do not have to attend if you do not want to. But i know there are some people out there that would love to see this happen, and that is why we do it.
Where did I say that it was a bad idea in general or that you shouldn't do it? The problem that got this whole thing started was not one of familiarity. We were not unhappy with the quality of the moderation that came out of the ISD team because we hadn't gotten to know them. We were unhappy with the quality of the moderation that came out of the ISD team because it was terrible.
To phrase it differently, it was not (and is not) a PR problem. It is a training (and to a lesser extent experience) problem. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
965
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 21:48:00 -
[628] - Quote
So I did promise earlier in the tread to try to call out what I consider to be good moderation. I realized I haven't really been doing that. Squeaky wheels and kicks and all that.
So, without further ado, I want to call out ISD Dorrim Barstorlode. He seems to get what the third letter in your title means: CCL (Community Communications Liaison). Liaison means that the first job is to interact positively with the target of your Liaising (what an odd word), and that's something ISD DB (because there are just too many "r"s in his name to spell) does very well, frequently posting in threads as a positive contributor rather than simply reporting on what moderation action he's performed. In addition to being an effective Liaison, his judicious use of of his moderation powers have given him this spot on CCL Team Member of the [Indeterminate Time Period]. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
241
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 23:14:00 -
[629] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:So I did promise earlier in the tread to try to call out what I consider to be good moderation. I realized I haven't really been doing that. Squeaky wheels and kicks and all that.
So, without further ado, I want to call out ISD Dorrim Barstorlode. He seems to get what the third letter in your title means: CCL (Community Communications Liaison). Liaison means that the first job is to interact positively with the target of your Liaising (what an odd word), and that's something ISD DB (because there are just too many "r"s in his name to spell) does very well, frequently posting in threads as a positive contributor rather than simply reporting on what moderation action he's performed. In addition to being an effective Liaison, his judicious use of of his moderation powers have given him this spot on CCL Team Member of the [Indeterminate Time Period].
Liaising, wwoooooo look at you, with your big words
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
FyntiPT
Lisnave IRC Provisional Authority
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 19:46:00 -
[630] - Quote
Btw how it possible take more then 4days to answer to a petition???? at 1 year ago the support was better now.... hmmm maybe this support work better just only for some players...
Srsly... 1 or 2 days ok but 1 WEEK.... i must say to my friend that he must choose a "better" alliance loool |
|
Pipa Porto
989
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 01:41:00 -
[631] - Quote
FyntiPT wrote:Btw how it possible take more then 4days to answer to a petition???? at 1 year ago the support was better now.... hmmm maybe this support work better just only for some players...
Srsly... 1 or 2 days ok but 1 WEEK.... i must say to my friend that he must choose a "better" alliance loool
Hate to break it to you, but ISDs are not GMs, so whining about petition times isn't gonna do much in this thread.
Might try looking here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=117446&find=unread
The reason petitions take a long time is that many players fill the queue with the most ridiculous terrible crap possible.
GM Homonoia wrote:On average current creation rates fluctuate between 1100 and 1400 new petitions each day
That's why your petition is taking time. On top of that, there's the possibility that your petition is complex and needs extra research to respond to, or you weren't able to make it particularly intelligible, or any number of other individual reasons for delay. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
568
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 07:22:00 -
[632] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:Yeah, that ISD40 needs to go.After the recent attack on the US embassy I posted some admittedly strong opinions about the current event. Yeah, it was somewhat political (critical of Hillary Clinton and her boss), and I slipped an fbomb in there. OK, I was kind of pissed off, but against the rules, probably right to have been locked. What I didn't appreciate was ISD40 replacing the post with an accusation of racism. Disliking the president isn't automatically racism, nor is suggesting that Marines should be posted in dangerous Arab nations so they can kill or deter Islamic terrorists. Yet the entire post was removed, the thread title edited from "Hillary Clinton, Two words: Hire Blackwater. Now." to LOCKED. and a snotty note left behind which implied that I made racial attacks. These forums have taken a big turn for the worse lately and these new 'enforcers'' are a big part of the problem.
You should be grateful that ISD40 did not ban your sorry-arse forum rights. After having to peruse at least a dozen of your threads, it started to make more sense as to why ISDs were locking your threads.
You insisted that ISDs are showing some kind of favoritism here over "content-less" threads. How does Obama and Hilary's ineptitude, in any way, relates to EVE Online? And for Christ's sake, I am a Republican and I also have certain distaste against his policies, but I don't delve that low by writing something so childish and politically sensitive on a freaken gaming forum.
Are you so neglected by your peers and communities that you have to resort to writing your senseless political jibberish on EVE Online forum and berating on ISDs? Grow up man. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
865
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 05:05:00 -
[633] - Quote
I am more interested in ISD40's locks for necro titles.
Now I thought that if a title was unused for a period of time it was auto locked.
If it is not how is this necro'd, if CCP want to say a topic is necro why don't they just make the auto lock quicker.
No title should ever be locked by an ISD for necro, it should only be automatic. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 13:36:00 -
[634] - Quote
One thing, ISDs and even devs in some cases have repeatedly moved threads posted by NPC alts to CAOD, where posting with an NPC alt is disallowed. Can you not turn that forum into a dumping ground for really dumb threads posted by sockpuppet alts? please leave |
ShipToaster
173
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 13:41:00 -
[635] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I am more interested in ISD40's locks for necro titles.
Now I thought that if a title was unused for a period of time it was auto locked.
If it is not how is this necro'd, if CCP want to say a topic is necro why don't they just make the auto lock quicker.
No title should ever be locked by an ISD for necro, it should only be automatic.
I think CCP are doing a good job. Their work on the unified inventory was first class. Mining rebalance is spot on. Their plans for the future look superb.
Sorry even my trolling powers balk at such troll nonsense. |
ShipToaster
173
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 13:43:00 -
[636] - Quote
Saved drafts get eaten now too?
ShipToaster wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I am more interested in ISD40's locks for necro titles.
Now I thought that if a title was unused for a period of time it was auto locked.
If it is not how is this necro'd, if CCP want to say a topic is necro why don't they just make the auto lock quicker.
No title should ever be locked by an ISD for necro, it should only be automatic.
Agree with this. As I cannot see the rule about this I am hoping that an ISD can link the rule about no necroing threads. I think CCP are doing a good job. Their work on the unified inventory was first class. Mining rebalance is spot on. Their plans for the future look superb.
Sorry even my trolling powers balk at such troll nonsense. |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
41
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 04:33:00 -
[637] - Quote
The Antiquarian wrote:Bart Starr wrote:Yeah, that ISD40 needs to go.After the recent attack on the US embassy I posted some admittedly strong opinions about the current event. Yeah, it was somewhat political (critical of Hillary Clinton and her boss), and I slipped an fbomb in there. OK, I was kind of pissed off, but against the rules, probably right to have been locked. What I didn't appreciate was ISD40 replacing the post with an accusation of racism. Disliking the president isn't automatically racism, nor is suggesting that Marines should be posted in dangerous Arab nations so they can kill or deter Islamic terrorists. Yet the entire post was removed, the thread title edited from "Hillary Clinton, Two words: Hire Blackwater. Now." to LOCKED. and a snotty note left behind which implied that I made racial attacks. These forums have taken a big turn for the worse lately and these new 'enforcers'' are a big part of the problem. You should be grateful that ISD40 did not ban your sorry-arse forum rights. After having to peruse at least a dozen of your threads, it started to make more sense as to why ISDs were locking your threads. You insisted that ISDs are showing some kind of favoritism here over "content-less" threads. How does Obama and Hilary's ineptitude, in any way, relates to EVE Online? And for Christ's sake, I am a Republican and I also have certain distaste against his policies, but I don't delve that low by writing something so childish and politically sensitive on a freaken gaming forum. Are you so neglected by your peers and communities that you have to resort to writing your senseless political jibberish on EVE Online forum and berate on ISDs? Grow up man.
A) It was in Out of Pod Experience. Its where you talk about stuff other than EVE, genius. B) I don't need a B), I already destroyed the point of your entire post.
And I didn't have a problem with the thread being locked. It was political and a vent. I do have a problem with the post being edited, then being called out as a racist by an ISD when the post contained nothing of the sort. |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
41
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 05:56:00 -
[638] - Quote
Oh, and here's an example of why I am critical of the ISDs.
According to ISD's - "Not a rant" - Its been floating in Ships and Fits for over a month now, up to six pages.
Quote:"Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up"
Thats it, the entire OP. Yet, still it circulates on the front page.
On the other hand: "A rant" that was locked within 3 minutes of being posted on GD. Got one like and a positive response first.
Quote: #10. Replacing the old and useful with the new and ******. Off the top of my head, forums and inventory system. #9. Warp to Zero and Jump Freighters. (that noise you hear? Eve getting smaller) #8. War dec 'fix' - "Hey lets make them MORE expensive and just as useless. Its not like we want ships to die or anything..." #7. Introduction of ISD Ministry of Truth. (Minitrue) Its double plus good! Really. #6. Boot.ini - Deleted! #5. Continued failure to remove local chat from null sec. #4. Concord Buffs, #1, #2, #3, and #4. (not safe enough, nope still not safe enough. No, not yet. Yeah, thats the stuff...wait! no) #3. Ending Hulkageddon. (emergent play? Who needs it, they should be grinding LVL4s, I mean incursions, I mean milking FW) #2. Betting the company on Dust and Space Barbies. (the future is in the hands of....13 year old console players?????) #1. Letting Greyscale design anything that doesn't involve Crayons.
You may quibble with my rank order, but I'm pretty sure I'm spot on.
I'm working on a Top 10 list of "Bart's least favorite ISD/GM/DEVs as well." As of now, its a work in progress. Check back tomorrow, same bat-time, same bat-channel.
Note the humor, accuracy and the format is easy on the eyes. But its 'unconstructive and a rant' simply because, I don't know - I can't CCP's problems for them, maybe.
Don't even get me started about the grab-assing on the Like and Get Likes and Avatar above me threads. "Helloooo, Rule #17.....Posts must be EVE related"
Is it any surprise ISD's aren't taken seriously? |
ShipToaster
173
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 08:50:00 -
[639] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I am more interested in ISD40's locks for necro titles.
Now I thought that if a title was unused for a period of time it was auto locked.
If it is not how is this necro'd, if CCP want to say a topic is necro why don't they just make the auto lock quicker.
No title should ever be locked by an ISD for necro, it should only be automatic.
I agree with this. I cannot seem to find any forum rules relating to necroing threads and am hoping this information can be conveyed to the playerbase.
Yesterdays post I made on this topic appears to have been removed. It broke no forum rules and has been petitioned.
I think CCP are doing a good job. Their work on the unified inventory was first class. Mining rebalance is spot on. Their plans for the future look superb.
Sorry even my trolling powers balk at such troll nonsense. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
756
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 08:54:00 -
[640] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:Oh, and here's an example of why I am critical of the ISDs. According to ISD's - "Not a rant" - Its been floating in Ships and Fits for over a month now, up to six pages. Quote:"Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up" Thats it, the entire OP. Yet, still it circulates on the front page. On the other hand: "A rant" that was locked within 3 minutes of being posted on GD. Got one like and a positive response first. Quote: #10. Replacing the old and useful with the new and ******. Off the top of my head, forums and inventory system. #9. Warp to Zero and Jump Freighters. (that noise you hear? Eve getting smaller) #8. War dec 'fix' - "Hey lets make them MORE expensive and just as useless. Its not like we want ships to die or anything..." #7. Introduction of ISD Ministry of Truth. (Minitrue) Its double plus good! Really. #6. Boot.ini - Deleted! #5. Continued failure to remove local chat from null sec. #4. Concord Buffs, #1, #2, #3, and #4. (not safe enough, nope still not safe enough. No, not yet. Yeah, thats the stuff...wait! no) #3. Ending Hulkageddon. (emergent play? Who needs it, they should be grinding LVL4s, I mean incursions, I mean milking FW) #2. Betting the company on Dust and Space Barbies. (the future is in the hands of....13 year old console players?????) #1. Letting Greyscale design anything that doesn't involve Crayons.
You may quibble with my rank order, but I'm pretty sure I'm spot on.
I'm working on a Top 10 list of "Bart's least favorite ISD/GM/DEVs as well." As of now, its a work in progress. Check back tomorrow, same bat-time, same bat-channel.
Note the humor, accuracy and the format is easy on the eyes. But its 'unconstructive and a rant' simply because, I don't know - I can't CCP's problems for them, maybe. Don't even get me started about the grab-assing on the Like and Get Likes and Avatar above me threads. "Helloooo, Rule #17.....Posts must be EVE related" Is it any surprise ISD's aren't taken seriously?
Ah, someone was thrown out of their magical kingdom and is now angry. Hopefully ISD will come rub balm on your wounds. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
|
Pipa Porto
1025
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 10:53:00 -
[641] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:On the other hand: "A rant" that was locked within 3 minutes of being posted on GD. Got one like and a positive response first. Quote: #10. Replacing the old and useful with the new and ******. Off the top of my head, forums and inventory system. #9. Warp to Zero and Jump Freighters. (that noise you hear? Eve getting smaller) #8. War dec 'fix' - "Hey lets make them MORE expensive and just as useless. Its not like we want ships to die or anything..." #7. Introduction of ISD Ministry of Truth. (Minitrue) Its double plus good! Really. #6. Boot.ini - Deleted! #5. Continued failure to remove local chat from null sec. #4. Concord Buffs, #1, #2, #3, and #4. (not safe enough, nope still not safe enough. No, not yet. Yeah, thats the stuff...wait! no) #3. Ending Hulkageddon. (emergent play? Who needs it, they should be grinding LVL4s, I mean incursions, I mean milking FW) #2. Betting the company on Dust and Space Barbies. (the future is in the hands of....13 year old console players?????) #1. Letting Greyscale design anything that doesn't involve Crayons.
You may quibble with my rank order, but I'm pretty sure I'm spot on.
I'm working on a Top 10 list of "Bart's least favorite ISD/GM/DEVs as well." As of now, its a work in progress. Check back tomorrow, same bat-time, same bat-channel.
Note the humor, accuracy and the format is easy on the eyes. But its 'unconstructive and a rant' simply because, I don't know - I can't CCP's problems for them, maybe. Don't even get me started about the grab-assing on the Like and Get Likes and Avatar above me threads. "Helloooo, Rule #17.....Posts must be EVE related" Is it any surprise ISD's aren't taken seriously?
Hmm, could be because of [bolded].
Even without those, a simple list of one-liner complaints doesn't particularly lend itself to constructive discussion.
The barge thread made a single complaint and (with just some small amount of outside context*), explained that complaint reasonably well.
*You have to know about Cargo Hulks. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
756
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 12:43:00 -
[642] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I am more interested in ISD40's locks for necro titles.
Now I thought that if a title was unused for a period of time it was auto locked.
If it is not how is this necro'd, if CCP want to say a topic is necro why don't they just make the auto lock quicker.
No title should ever be locked by an ISD for necro, it should only be automatic. I agree with this. I cannot seem to find any forum rules relating to necroing threads and am hoping this information can be conveyed to the playerbase. Yesterdays post I made on this topic appears to have been removed. It broke no forum rules and has been petitioned.
Hopefully it is against the rules to necro. Or to keep things fair, they might wait a few months, then necro that petition and get back with you. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Pipa Porto
1030
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 17:38:00 -
[643] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I am more interested in ISD40's locks for necro titles.
Now I thought that if a title was unused for a period of time it was auto locked.
If it is not how is this necro'd, if CCP want to say a topic is necro why don't they just make the auto lock quicker.
No title should ever be locked by an ISD for necro, it should only be automatic.
There's a difference between necroing a thread to troll it and necroing a thread because you have something to add.
The Necro'd threads that I've seen locked have all fallen in the first category. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Ghazu
199
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 07:46:00 -
[644] - Quote
I think all ISDs should be given a big bag of 7 day read onlys that can be handed out like candy. |
Jason Marshall
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 13:26:00 -
[645] - Quote
After a 3 month forum ban for asking a question about pants. Im glad that I helped in some small way to make this thread happen. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
76
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 15:20:00 -
[646] - Quote
I know next to nothing about the "behind the scenes" machinations of the "report post" flag. Does it send reports to senior CCL people when the flagged post is one from ISD? If not, can it be altered to do so? I'm thinking that doing a "report post" on ISD posts that I disagree with might provide an effective feedback on the quality of their ISD members' moderation.
MDD |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
611
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 16:00:00 -
[647] - Quote
I think a mininum age of 21 to be a part of the ISD team would really help. You want fries with that? |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
124
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 17:07:00 -
[648] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:I know next to nothing about the "behind the scenes" machinations of the "report post" flag. Does it send reports to senior CCL people when the flagged post is one from ISD? If not, can it be altered to do so? I'm thinking that doing a "report post" on ISD posts that I disagree with might provide an effective feedback on the quality of their ISD members' moderation.
MDD
Hi there,
If a post by an ISD member is reported, then we're (CCL) forbidden from dealing with it and it is escalated to the community team at CCP.
Part of being in CCL is the requirement that all moderators have to be on-line in our special IRC channel, as we often have to discuss the actions that are about to be taken.
If an ISD post is reported then as a lead I may email the chat-logs to CCP, depending on what has happened; but that's as far as we get involved.
I hope this helps! ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1316
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 18:44:00 -
[649] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:I know next to nothing about the "behind the scenes" machinations of the "report post" flag. Does it send reports to senior CCL people when the flagged post is one from ISD? If not, can it be altered to do so? I'm thinking that doing a "report post" on ISD posts that I disagree with might provide an effective feedback on the quality of their ISD members' moderation.
MDD Hi there, If a post by an ISD member is reported, then we're (CCL) forbidden from dealing with it and it is escalated to the community team at CCP. Part of being in CCL is the requirement that all moderators have to be on-line in our special IRC channel, as we often have to discuss the actions that are about to be taken. If an ISD post is reported then as a lead I may email the chat-logs to CCP, depending on what has happened; but that's as far as we get involved. I hope this helps! That is awesome, I had no idea.
So we can use this as a tool for clearly reporting what we think was wrong with moderation, and as long as we are polite and don't abuse it, we won't get smacked (forumwise)? |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
138
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 19:40:00 -
[650] - Quote
Hi Corina,
Yes absolutely - we welcome all constructive feedback!
As long as folks don't start abusing it, then there is no problem that I can see; although of course that's up to CCP as it's their workload we're talking about.
The only potential problem as CCP Gargant said earlier is that there is no feedback loop built into the report system. If you want to to get feedback about actions that have been taken, (on a post of your own of course!) then the best bet is to raise a petition under the Other -> Community category.
Thanks and fly safe! ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4942
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 02:59:00 -
[651] - Quote
There's apparently a rule against posting killboard links in GD:
ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi, Please note that posting killboard links is not permitted, so I've taken the liberty of clearing them up in this thread. I'd normally say 'Thanks and fly safe' but I suspect things are going to get colourful for you, so I'm going to say: Thanks and be careful!* *and follow the forum rules
However, there's also this:
ISD Praetoxx wrote:Hmm, that is strange. The Forum Rules make no mention of such a rule against posting killmail links. Maybe you should re-read the rules to ensure you don't give out incorrect information. It could make you look like you don't know what you are talking about! The context in which said killmail links are posted is what matters.
Either you're enforcing a rule which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned outside of C&P, or the policy 'exists' but it's nowhere to be found, or it simply doesn't exist. Can we get some clarification on this apparent rule against linking killmails? please leave |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
177
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 13:34:00 -
[652] - Quote
Hi Andski,
Thanks for bringing to my attention.
The rule regarding Killboard posts is a specific extension of the no trolling rule as CCP Spitfire states here:
Crime and punishment rules
As that's posted by CCP, it can be considered as Canon for all purposes on all of the child forums here. I've cleared this up with my guys and we've escalated this to CCP to ask if it can be put in the full forum rules list, especially as some of the newer CCL team members weren't aware.
Sorry for the confusion!
tl,dr; You're only allowed to post killmails on Crime and Punishment, as long as you follow the rules. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
1102
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 14:01:00 -
[653] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:tl,dr; You're only allowed to post killmails on Crime and Punishment, as long as you follow the rules.
I don't see anything in that post that says or implies that.
CCP Spitfire wrote:Before posting in the Crime & Punishment forum, we ask that you please take a look at the following rules:
Killmails
The posting of killmails is permitted,
It simply says that posting killmails is allowed in C&P subject to certain restrictions. Nowhere does it say anything about any other boards.
Nor do I see anything in the forum rules about killmails, nor do I see how posting killmails constitutes "Trolling" as defined by the forum rules. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4945
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 15:05:00 -
[654] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi Andski, Thanks for bringing to my attention. The rule regarding Killboard posts is a specific extension of the no trolling rule as CCP Spitfire states here: Crime and punishment rulesAs that's posted by CCP, it can be considered as Canon for all purposes on all of the child forums here. I've cleared this up with my guys and we've escalated this to CCP to ask if it can be put in the full forum rules list, especially as some of the newer CCL team members weren't aware. Sorry for the confusion! tl,dr; You're only allowed to post killmails on Crime and Punishment, as long as you follow the rules.
How in the world does posting a killmail even resemble trolling? A guy asks "hey why does this API verified Chimera on eve-kill show 8 highs, 8 mids and 8 lows" and the killmail link gets removed from his post because he's apparently 'trolling' by asking why a popular EVE-related site is rendering a killmail inaccurately.
A blanket ban against killboard links on the forums does nothing towards any goal besides, possibly, shielding players from the fact that players shoot other players in "eve online," the "cold harsh universe." It only forces people to beat around the bush when trying to point out, for example, why titans were ridiculously overpowered when they'd pop afterburning frigates or solo Catalysts popping Hulks or whatever. Nothing can possibly be gained from a blanket ban against killboard links on the forums. please leave |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
179
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 15:22:00 -
[655] - Quote
CCP Spitfire wrote: Killmails
The posting of killmails is permitted, however following criteria must be met:
a) The name of the victim must be removed or covered up b) The killmail must be posted along with constructive text/content. This means no posting new threads with simply a killmail in it without a comment. c) The killmail must be posted directly into the post and may not be a link to a third-party site.
The reason behind these rules was a spate of threads seeking to embarrass other players, such as those with poor set-ups.
Killmails are not supported by us and given the ease of forgery, threads with killmails in them tended to descend into arguments about the veracity of them.
To foster a better community spirit, killmails will be removed from any post that do not follow the above rules.
I've italicized the relevant parts of CCP Spitfire's post to show why we consider Killmail posts as trolling.
I'm not going to get into a discussion about actions taken against other posts here, but you'll see that I've addressed that Chimera thread now.
As I mentioned before, I've raised the question about Killmails with my superiors at CCP. Until they've clarified what they want to happen, I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here.
You may also raise it directly with CCP by sending a petition in via the Other -> Community category. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
1103
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 16:03:00 -
[656] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:CCP Spitfire wrote: Killmails
The posting of killmails is permitted, however following criteria must be met:
a) The name of the victim must be removed or covered up b) The killmail must be posted along with constructive text/content. This means no posting new threads with simply a killmail in it without a comment. c) The killmail must be posted directly into the post and may not be a link to a third-party site.
The reason behind these rules was a spate of threads seeking to embarrass other players, such as those with poor set-ups.
Killmails are not supported by us and given the ease of forgery, threads with killmails in them tended to descend into arguments about the veracity of them.
To foster a better community spirit, killmails will be removed from any post that do not follow the above rules.
I've italicized the relevant parts of CCP Spitfire's post to show why we consider Killmail posts as trolling. I'm not going to get into a discussion about actions taken against other posts here, but you'll see that I've addressed that Chimera thread now. As I mentioned before, I've raised the question about Killmails with my superiors at CCP. Until they've clarified what they want to happen, I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here. You may also raise it directly with CCP by sending a petition in via the Other -> Community category.
You're forgetting the line that sets the scope for the rest of the post.
CCP Spitfire wrote:Before posting in the Crime & Punishment forum
Since when can you, as an ISD volunteer, create rules?
ISD Praetoxx wrote:Hmm, that is strange. The Forum Rules make no mention of such a rule against posting killmail links. Maybe you should re-read the rules to ensure you don't give out incorrect information. It could make you look like you don't know what you are talking about! The context in which said killmail links are posted is what matters.
It's clear that there's no internal rule prohibiting positing killmails, and as there's no public rule prohibiting them, where's this rule on killmails that you're claiming exists? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
2262
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 17:33:00 -
[657] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Since when can you, as an ISD volunteer, create rules? Our ISD CCL team interprets the forum rules to their best knowledge and intent. It is perfectly valid for the CCL team to act in accordance with their understanding of the forum rules and to contact the EVE Community team for confirmation that this interpretation is correct. This is not considered creating rules - especially not when it is mentioned that the EVE Community team has been contacted for confirmation or assistance.
Discussions around killmails usually belong to the Crime & Punishment forum channel and there we have special rules additional to the general forum rules. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
Pipa Porto
1104
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 18:35:00 -
[658] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Since when can you, as an ISD volunteer, create rules? Our ISD CCL team interprets the forum rules to their best knowledge and intent. It is perfectly valid for the CCL team to act in accordance with their understanding of the forum rules and to contact the EVE Community team for confirmation that this interpretation is correct. This is not considered creating rules - especially not when it is mentioned that the EVE Community team has been contacted for confirmation or assistance.
ISD Suvetar wrote:I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here.
Might want to tell your ISDs that.
Besides that, the publicly available rules are quite clear with regards to killmails outside C&P (that there aren't any), and there don't appear to be any internal rules that contradict that (as of ISD Praetoxx's post).
ISD Praetoxx wrote:Hmm, that is strange. The Forum Rules make no mention of such a rule against posting killmail links. Maybe you should re-read the rules to ensure you don't give out incorrect information. It could make you look like you don't know what you are talking about! The context in which said killmail links are posted is what matters.
Really? I think there's plenty of topics where killmails would be germane to the discussion that would not fit in C&P.
Besides that, we are not talking about killmails posted in C&P for which there are rules. Nobody's saying there aren't rules for posting killmails in C&P. What we're questioning is that the idea that one subforum's rules magically spreads to all the rest. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
179
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 19:29:00 -
[659] - Quote
Hi Pipa,
I'm only going to comment on the parts that are relevant to CCL here.
- I don't create the rules.
I had thought that my statement 'I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here' would have been taken in reference to the rules stated in in CCP Spitfire's post, I am sorry that it didn't come across clearly.
As I mentioned earlier, I have now raised this issue with the CCL team, not everyone was aware of rules against Killboard posts, I have raised this internally now so hopefully there will be no more misunderstandings.
I apologise again on behalf of the CCL team, the information given by ISD Praetoxx was incorrect.
Thanks and fly safe. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
None ofthe Above
337
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 03:07:00 -
[660] - Quote
If the C&P rules stating: "The posting of killmails is permitted" is meant in the "exception proves the rule"* sense, then CCP should probably update the forums rules to say "posting of killmails are not permitted except within C&P, and then only if the special rules there are followed" or somesuch wording.
As it is, it appears that the no killmail policy was an unwritten rule or born of a misinterpretation.
Before you do that, you might evaluate whether it is really necessary. After all there might be perfectly valid reasons to post killmails outside of C&P. Like say discussions of accuracy around seemingly impossible kills, just as a wild example.
Crime and Punishment Rules: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6302&find=unread
Forum rules: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules
Anyway... as you all decide, but I hope you can see why some folk might be surprised by this rule.
Oh and thanks ISD and CCP for keeping this thread open. A place to discuss such issues really helps, IMHO.
*FYI - This is the only accurate sense of the "exception proves the rule", meaning that an explicit exception actually proves the rule exists. Not the usual glib dismissal of counter-evidence that it is usually used for. EVE is a sandbox; The only "end-game" content in EVE is the crap that makes you rage-quit.
|
|
Pipa Porto
1109
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 09:19:00 -
[661] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi Pipa, I'm only going to comment on the parts that are relevant to CCL here.
- I don't create the rules.
I had thought that my statement 'I ask you to please follow the rules that have been stated here' would have been taken in reference to the rules stated in in CCP Spitfire's post, I am sorry that it didn't come across clearly.
Which, in plain reading, has no bearing on the topic of killmails posted outside C&P.
Quote:As I mentioned earlier, I have now raised this issue with the CCL team, not everyone was aware of rules against Killboard posts, I have raised this internally now so hopefully there will be no more misunderstandings.
What rule?
Quote:I apologise again on behalf of the CCL team, the information given by ISD Praetoxx was incorrect.
Thanks and fly safe.
Then I'm sure you'll be able to show us the rule against posting killmails outside of C&P, or Explain how posting a killmail outside of C&P necessarily means that post is trolling (per CCP's definition). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
762
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 11:39:00 -
[662] - Quote
Can I post Killmails in general discussion? I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
540
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:07:00 -
[663] - Quote
You still have not clarified the rules outside C+P. Are killmails and killboard links allowed in Warfare and Tactics? Wormholes? CAOD?
Also, there is something I don't get. Last expansion, you made it easy to share killmails ingame, just by linking them in chat. What sense does it make to make something easier ingame, but disallow it on the forums? What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
185
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:40:00 -
[664] - Quote
Good afternoon,
To answer your question specifically, Rodyas: You're not allowed to post killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards in General Discussion.
To expand on that answer, this rule extends to the whole of the forums with the exception of Crime and Punishment where you may post killmails but not killboard links or screenshots of killboards, following the rules stated in this post.
We realise there is not a specific rule forbidding posting killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards in the Forum rules, and we have asked CCP if they will clarify or formalize this particular rule in writing.
In the mean time, CCP Spitfire has stated in two places here and here that Killmails are considered a form of trolling.
CCP Spitfire wrote:Posting killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards will be considered as trolling or off-topic, and subject to removal or warning.
There is a specific rule that forbids Trolling (See the Forum Rules number 7) so therefore the removal of killmails, links to killboards or screenshots of killboards extends to the entire forum, with the exception of the specific case allowed in Crime and Punishment.
As I've said before, we are enforcing CCPs decision in the matter, not making the rules up ourselves. Any further discussion needs to be raised with CCP. Please use the Other -> Community petition category to do so.
Thanks and fly safe. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
1110
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:50:00 -
[665] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Good afternoon,
To answer your question specifically, Rodyas: You and your fellow forum users are not allowed to post killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards in General Discussion.
Feel like showing us where anything says that's a rule?
Quote:In the mean time, CCP Spitfire has stated in two places here and here that Killmails are considered a form of trolling.
In C&P, and in IG Summit, respectively. Since when do the rules of one subforum apply to other subforums?
Quote:As I've said before, we are enforcing CCPs decision in the matter, not making the rules up ourselves.
Feel like showing us where anything written by CCP staff says that posting killmails is trolling in EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
540
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:15:00 -
[666] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:In the mean time, CCP Spitfire has stated in two places here and here that Killmails are considered a form of trolling. CCP Spitfire wrote:Posting killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards will be considered as trolling or off-topic, and subject to removal or warning. He also says " Absolutely no out of character (OOC) comments or references are allowed." right above it. So I assume you will enforce that rule in General Discussion too? To the roleplay waggon, everyone! What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4957
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 14:09:00 -
[667] - Quote
Are you guys going to remove the restriction on posting on CAOD with alts since you're just moving all of the bad NPC alt threads there?
I mean that restriction exists for a reason doesn't it? please leave |
Pipa Porto
1115
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 14:10:00 -
[668] - Quote
Andski wrote:Are you guys going to remove the restriction on posting on CAOD with alts since you're just moving all of the bad NPC alt threads there?
I mean that restriction exists for a reason doesn't it?
It exists to prevent NPC posting in GD, of course. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
700
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 00:03:00 -
[669] - Quote
Is it just me, or are people trying to incite another forum protest today? Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
Pipa Porto
1147
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 01:27:00 -
[670] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Is it just me, or are people trying to incite another forum protest today?
Who knows. But the quality of ISD posts and moderation has been dropping again.
WOLOLOLOL Rules for Subdforums are applicable to all Forums. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
700
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 02:18:00 -
[671] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Is it just me, or are people trying to incite another forum protest today? Who knows. But the quality of ISD posts and moderation has been dropping again.
Agreed & it's happening very rapidly.
CCP; You really need to get this under control on a permanent basis or you could possibly end up with another forum riot such as the one in June. I would also suggest seriously reconsidering the need for unpaid forum moderators, considering that a large portion of the EVE community (Which you claim to love so dearly) disagrees with this course of action. Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
Pipa Porto
1149
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 10:45:00 -
[672] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Is it just me, or are people trying to incite another forum protest today? Who knows. But the quality of ISD posts and moderation has been dropping again. Agreed & it's happening very rapidly. CCP; You really need to get this under control on a permanent basis or you could possibly end up with another forum riot such as the one in June. I would also suggest seriously reconsidering the need for unpaid forum moderators, considering that a large portion of the EVE community (Which you claim to love so dearly) disagrees with this course of action.
Remember when you were a kid, and you'd be screwing around until your parents walked in, then on your best behavior until the instant your parents left the room?
The ISDs are kids, and CCP has left the room. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
766
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 02:47:00 -
[673] - Quote
^ I also remember always getting away with it too. So I suppose it looks good for ISD. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Pipa Porto
1149
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 04:38:00 -
[674] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Since when can you, as an ISD volunteer, create rules? Our ISD CCL team interprets the forum rules to their best knowledge and intent. It is perfectly valid for the CCL team to act in accordance with their understanding of the forum rules and to contact the EVE Community team for confirmation that this interpretation is correct. This is not considered creating rules - especially not when it is mentioned that the EVE Community team has been contacted for confirmation or assistance.
ISD Suvetar wrote:You and your fellow forum users are not allowed to post killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards in General Discussion. It's a rule.
ISD Suvetar wrote:We realise there is not a specific rule forbidding posting killmails, killboard links or screenshots of killboards in the Forum rules But it's not actually a rule.
In what way is this not creating rules?
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Corpse Bride
The Justified Ancients of Mu-Mu
19
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 19:17:00 -
[675] - Quote
Forum rules don't exactly state that I can't post racoon **** either, but it's pretty darned likely that it'll get the heck moderated out of it, if I did.
What makes you so special ?
They've said they interpret killmail posts as trolling, then link some very good explanations as to why and a blue post even tells you that it's their job to interpret the rules. (They being the ISD CCL).
Cut them some slack and stop bad posting; it's a lot better here when people are talking about the game and not whining at the help.
Do you really not think that asking CCP to *LIST ALL THE RULES* and every possible connotation is ridiculous ? Pro-tip: It is.
If you force them down this line, do you not think that might lead to the so-called censorship that people keep blattering about ? Pro-tip: It will and people will blame the likes of you for it.
Before you ask, no I'm not mad. I've been around for a while, I lurk more then I post (obviously) and all I see is ISD people being helpful in game, in the forums and in EVE Radio. |
Pipa Porto
1155
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 02:18:00 -
[676] - Quote
Corpse Bride wrote:Forum rules don't exactly state that I can't post racoon **** either, but it's pretty darned likely that it'll get the heck moderated out of it, if I did.
Sure they do. [Rule 3]Posting images and ASCII art on the forums is prohibited with the following exceptions:
Quote:They've said they interpret killmail posts as trolling, then link some very good explanations as to why and a blue post even tells you that it's their job to interpret the rules. (They being the ISD CCL).
No, CCP Spitfire's rule posts in One Subforum state that killmail posting in that forum is trolling. To say that rule applies to other subforums is patently rificulous.
Quote:Cut them some slack and stop bad posting; it's a lot better here when people are talking about the game and not whining at the help.
Try reading the whole thread. We went from ISDs providing terrible moderation (something CCP all but admitted in the OP) and calls for their disbanding, to "Hey they're improving," and now we're back to them shitting the bed again.
Quote:Do you really not think that asking CCP to *LIST ALL THE RULES* and every possible connotation is ridiculous ? Pro-tip: It is.
I'm saying that the rules of one subforum do not apply to all the rest. The ISD (and, I guess, you) is(are) saying the opposite.
Quote:If you force them down this line, do you not think that might lead to the so-called censorship that people keep blattering about ? Pro-tip: It will and people will blame the likes of you for it.
Before you ask, no I'm not mad. I've been around for a while, I lurk more then I post (obviously) and all I see is ISD people being helpful in game, in the forums and in EVE Radio.
If CCP wants to make this forum inhospitable to discussion, that's their right. People will move to other forums the same way most other MMOs' official forums are largely abandoned. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Corpse Bride
The Justified Ancients of Mu-Mu
24
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 04:19:00 -
[677] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote: Sure they do. [Rule 3]Posting images and ASCII art on the forums is prohibited with the following exceptions:
You just totally undermined your own argument; right there.
Did I mention images or ascii art ? No; I did not.
But you assumed intent and hurt, you interpreted my post and quoted forum rules at me; to make what I said *wrong*.
So likewise to the ones who post killmails, maybe they didn't mean any harm but other people assume intent, interpret and quote forum rules to make them look bad.
Like you just did.
You just interpreted a generalised forum rule to prove me wrong, by making it an exact rule; because you assumed I meant something I didn't. You don't know me and you did that, to *prove* your point.
The ISD people apply generalised forum rules, to make this place nice and constructive, and to make things right. Because they know that people rarely make intentionally hostile posts, but the best way to avoid that is to not have ambiguity.
|
Pipa Porto
1157
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 06:47:00 -
[678] - Quote
Corpse Bride wrote:You just totally undermined your own argument; right there.
Did I mention images or ascii art ? No; I did not.
But you assumed intent and hurt, you interpreted my post and quoted forum rules at me; to make what I said *wrong*.
So how else are you going to post "raccoon ****"? The word is censored, and evading that word filter is against the rules.
Posting the words "raccoon ****" without evading the word filter is perfectly legal unless the manner in which you post it violates a different rule.
Quote:The ISD people apply generalised forum rules, to make this place nice and constructive, and to make things right. Because they know that people rarely make intentionally hostile posts, but the best way to avoid that is to not have ambiguity.
Except that's not what they did. They applied a specific rule which properly applies to a specific subforum to the whole of the forums. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 10:33:00 -
[679] - Quote
This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later. CCP Gargant | Community Representative |
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
392
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 10:46:00 -
[680] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later. So the takeout is it's still not good compared to the pre 20% forum, but hell - it's free.
WARNING: The current poster is erratic, prone to error and generally blissfully unaware due to the taking of many hard drugs over the course of many years - most of them legal. |
|
Pipa Porto
1166
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 11:07:00 -
[681] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later.
It's been a year since your started the CCL program. You're well past the time when "growing pains" of this magnitude are acceptable. Trying to bury this thread isn't going to help that.
You're also not answering the question at hand. Why are you allowing ISD Volunteers to create new rules (or, and this is no better, enforce the rules of one subforum on the rest of the forum).
By the way, rushing to claim victory and bury the evidence doesn't work well on the internet. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
751
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 11:15:00 -
[682] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later. It's been a year since your started the CCL program. You're well past the time when "growing pains" of this magnitude are acceptable. Trying to bury this thread isn't going to help that. You're also not answering the question at hand. Why are you allowing ISD Volunteers to create new rules (or, and this is no better, enforce the rules of one subforum on the rest of the forum). By the way, rushing to claim victory and bury the evidence doesn't work well on the internet.
If you actually had paid employees for this (like you actually did, but sacked them because of your space barbie obsession) that we wouldn't be having all this trouble with volunteers now. Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
Alice Saki
9191
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 11:23:00 -
[683] - Quote
I want to be a better poster
Maybe I should Apply for ISD
Jim Says wat, I say Lock! Scottish Interweb Spaceshippy Person, Very Easily Confused. I like to show my Love by Smashing people in the face with a big Hammer.
|
|
CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 11:40:00 -
[684] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later. It's been a year since your started the CCL program. You're well past the time when "growing pains" of this magnitude are acceptable. Trying to bury this thread isn't going to help that. You're also not answering the question at hand. Why are you allowing ISD Volunteers to create new rules (or, and this is no better, enforce the rules of one subforum on the rest of the forum). By the way, rushing to claim victory and bury the evidence doesn't work well on the internet.
I mentioned nothing about victory and nowhere did I state that the future Navigator spoke about is here. That should do enough to indicate that our work isn't finished, shouldn't it? I'm not burying anything, I have the lock function for that.
We are aware of the issue that arose last week and we are simply still discussing it. I know that is a vague answer but it is the only one you will get for now. CCP Gargant | Community Representative |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
651
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 11:49:00 -
[685] - Quote
If ISD 40, or whatever his name is, came a cross as a bit less arrogant it might help.
On a personal level, I have little or no interest in which threads are modified, moved or locked. It is the attitude if the ISDs I find off-putting.
It just seems that the ISD folk are a little drunk on their power right now.
The idea is fine, just the implementation seems a bit off at the moment. Too old, tired and ugly to care. |
Pipa Porto
1171
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 14:43:00 -
[686] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later. It's been a year since your started the CCL program. You're well past the time when "growing pains" of this magnitude are acceptable. Trying to bury this thread isn't going to help that. You're also not answering the question at hand. Why are you allowing ISD Volunteers to create new rules (or, and this is no better, enforce the rules of one subforum on the rest of the forum). By the way, rushing to claim victory and bury the evidence doesn't work well on the internet. I mentioned nothing about victory and nowhere did I state that the future Navigator spoke about is here. That should do enough to indicate that our work isn't finished, shouldn't it? I'm not burying anything, I have the lock function for that. We are aware of the issue that arose last week and we are simply still discussing it. I know that is a vague answer but it is the only one you will get for now.
CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose.
Anyway, what this thread has become is a place to help try to improve the ISDs who you've foisted on us after shitcanning firing your well respected and effective paid moderators. The fact that it seems to bounce from crisis to crisis simply reflects the fact that the ISDs seem to feel the need to provide us with a crisis every week (it's like the TV drama with the world's least interesting visuals). On the odd week that we're without a crisis, it usually stays quiet or ends up talking up the ways ISDs have done better.
The fact that they haven't significantly improved overall (besides banishing one outrageous example to the Russian forums) in 4 months that this thread has been running is just sad.
Unsticking a Sticky is an attempt to bury a topic when Locking it might seem impolitic.
One last edit: By the way, as to this thread's purpose:
CCP Navigator wrote:Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
770
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 22:33:00 -
[687] - Quote
This thread would make an awesome sticky thread, then everyone could read it & see how you have nothing to hide... Oh wait, nevermind. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
1227
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 22:42:00 -
[688] - Quote
I blame the parents...
|
Pipa Porto
1178
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 07:46:00 -
[689] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:This thread would make an awesome sticky thread, then everyone could read it & see how you have nothing to hide... Oh wait, nevermind.
It's funny how the ISDs keep trying to make up new rules while having no idea how the current forum (or game) mechanics work.
WTB Stcky to prove that CCP isn't trying to bury the fact that their ISD experiment has failed. (Growing Pains this severe after a full year is a sign that you're going to have to suck it up and hire people). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
773
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 08:06:00 -
[690] - Quote
Nerf HML missiles. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
|
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
265
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 08:12:00 -
[691] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later.
Has it, I thought this thread was to be an ongoing discussion between the player base and the mods if things go sour and was put into place as there wasn't a forum for this type of discussion before.
Are you saying that as far as your (CCP) concerned the discussion is finished ? which goes against why this thread was created in the first place.
Does feel like your trying to bury it.
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
395
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 08:21:00 -
[692] - Quote
If a thread on community and CCL gets a bit derailed you could always... y'know - moderate it.
The alternative looks like the old "deep sixed".
Just saying. WARNING: The current poster is erratic, prone to error and generally blissfully unaware due to the taking of many hard drugs over the course of many years - most of them legal. |
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 12:04:00 -
[693] - Quote
I might have said some things I shouldn't have the otherday & got my main banned for life. I hold the ISD directly responsible for this, they deliberately provoked me into a fit of rage with their ridiculous & continuous interjections & locks.
I am prepared to accept an apology & reinstatement of my posting privileges & forget the whole matter. In return I promise never to say bad things about these valued volunteers again. (unless warranted) but I'll refrain from 'inappropriate' language in future.
I would like to suggest that everybody lighten up a little & perhaps these rampant control freaks ought to grow a thicker hide when dealing with the general discussion board, after all, sticks & stones & all that.
thank you. |
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone Caldari State
703
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:01:00 -
[694] - Quote
This thread will die anyway ,CCP will keep their mouth shut until this blows over . Happens all the time If Dust has social areas ,then vanishing the blog is not an CCP decision ,but an all exclusive Sony decision |
Pipa Porto
1179
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:18:00 -
[695] - Quote
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:This thread will die anyway ,CCP will keep their mouth shut until this blows over . Happens all the time
Unfortunately for them, as these past 4 months have shown, the fact that the problem keeps waving its **** bad moderation in people's faces keeps the problem (and annoyance) fresh. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
None ofthe Above
339
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:42:00 -
[696] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later.
Oh that is disappointing. The one place on the forums where moderation could be discussed has fulfilled it's purpose? You no longer feel that should be allowed?
Please reconsider. EVE is a sandbox; The only "end-game" content in EVE is the crap that makes you rage-quit.
|
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone Caldari State
703
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:51:00 -
[697] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:This thread will die anyway ,CCP will keep their mouth shut until this blows over . Happens all the time Unfortunately for them, as these past 4 months have shown, the fact that the problem keeps waving its **** bad moderation in people's faces keeps the problem (and annoyance) fresh.
Its indeed annoying, i had some replies removed some were trolls but a few were normal replies (at least i thought ,they were).
If Dust has social areas ,then vanishing the blog is not an CCP decision ,but an all exclusive Sony decision |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
389
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:04:00 -
[698] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:If CCP wants to make this forum inhospitable to discussion, that's their right. People will move to other forums the same way most other MMOs' official forums are largely abandoned.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Seriously. |
Trendon Evenstar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:16:00 -
[699] - Quote
What these forums need is the Hratli Smirks Guide to PostingGäó
Here you go: mods sticky this please tia
Hello, I'm Skymarshal H. Ratli Smirks, the hero of 49-U. I've been asked by Vinata to write a guide to help you eager Kugutsumen posters not smear virtual poop all over these forums. Which you persist in doing every time your webbed, cheeto-stained man-paw shoves your cursor over the GÇ£post new replyGÇ¥ button.
Yes, you are a bad poster. And by GÇ£youGÇ¥ I mean you personally. However, if you follow these guidelines you may become a less-bad poster, which is something we look forward to with the utmost anticipation.
1. No antiquated terrible meme posting. These are memes that were potentially at one point effective and maybe even amusing, then discarded, taken up by CAOD, SHC, and posters like you, and driven into the ground. They are obsolete. At this point seeing GÇ£u mad broGÇ¥ posted, or references to people GÇ£being mad,GÇ¥ is like listening to your grandparents use slang ten years out of date. It is wince-inducing.
2. Images you pulled off 4chan. Yes, we know 4chan is hilarious and the captions are soooo funny! Post all the pictures you want there! But post words here you ******* illiterate.
3. Various permutations of the word GÇ£failGÇ¥ that do not adhere to classic, pre-internet usage. Likewise "epic." Keep that **** at home.
4. I heartily encourage you to lurk before posting. Lurking is useful because it introduces you to local posting conventions and generally gives you a handle on the regular forum denizens.
5. When you find a good post, take a few moments to examine it critically and figure out what makes it a good post. What makes it amusing? What makes it enjoyable to read? Do the same to a bad post. What makes it garbage? What makes it painful to read? Try to incorporate what you learned into your next post.
6. Along the lines of #5, study the good posters and the good trolls. Look at their language, their tone, and even their gimmicks. What makes them effective? You don't have to copy them, but pay attention.
7. Don't do emotes in a post. This isn't a Vampire the Masquerade RP room on IRC.
8. Recognize ironicposting and written sarcasm.
Unless you are confident in your command of the Art of Posting, I recommend being succinct. Writing long, elaborate posts is really only fine if you are confident in your ability to hold the reader's attention and keep them interested/amused throughout the length of the post. You remember that scene from The Shawshank Redemption where Tim Robbins had to crawl five hundred yards through a raw sewage pipe? That's what reading a long bad post is like.
This goes for angry rageposting too. I don't personally endorse rageposting because it is terribly boring, but some of you ******* love rageposting like Suas loved *******. Whatever, I can't personally stop you. Just make it brief.
Posts about how awesome you and your legion of space badasses are and how you are about to rain **** and pit bulls onto your hapless space adversaries are also boring. If you post these, you will likely be trolled.
Don't get trolled. If someone posted something obviously provocatively wrong and you feel compelled to correct it and it wasn't posted by CrusaderKnight then you are probably about to get trolled. Looking at you, TEST.
Know when to get out of a thread. Threads usually degenerate into complete circular fuckery, and spending further time in that cesspit arguing is a waste. When it becomes clear that further debate is pointless, leave. |
|
CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
107
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:35:00 -
[700] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later. Oh that is disappointing. The one place on the forums where moderation could be discussed has fulfilled it's purpose? You no longer feel that should be allowed? Please reconsider.
Almost the first thing I did when I came into the forums was to acknowledge that there needs to be a place to discuss moderation in the general sense rather than specific instances of it. I am very much ready to discuss my own opinions regarding ways of moderation. This thread served that purpose, true, but it currently does more bad than good due to events that negatively affected it over the summer that I myself had nothing to do with because I wasn't a part of the Community Team yet.
Removing the sticky on this thread is not an attempt to bury it or hide it. I can lock and delete for that. I'm trying to convey the point that we know things aren't in their best possible state yet and we are actively working towards getting them there. The seminar will be held this week as I said, and we will continue on from there.
I'm not promising anything because I want to be able to deliver, but I can say that I have a specific goal and I am working towards that. CCP Gargant | Community Representative |
|
|
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
390
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:38:00 -
[701] - Quote
Gargant for CSM 8 |
Pipa Porto
1179
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:38:00 -
[702] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:Almost the first thing I did when I came into the forums was to acknowledge that there needs to be a place to discuss moderation in the general sense rather than specific instances of it. I am very much ready to discuss my own opinions regarding ways of moderation. This thread served that purpose, true, but it currently does more bad than good due to events that negatively affected it over the summer that I myself had nothing to do with because I wasn't a part of the Community Team yet.
Removing the sticky on this thread is not an attempt to bury it or hide it. I can lock and delete for that. I'm trying to convey the point that we know things aren't in their best possible state yet and we are actively working towards getting them there. The seminar will be held this week as I said, and we will continue on from there.
I'm not promising anything because I want to be able to deliver, but I can say that I have a specific goal and I am working towards that.
So where's the stickied thread to replace this as a place to discuss moderation?
I said you wanted to bury the topic, not explode it (as locking or deleting it would).
In the meantime, how has this thread "fulfilled its purpose" of
CCP Navigator wrote:Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering.
Oh, and it currently does more bad than good to CCP's interests because the ISDs keep shitting the bed. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
390
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:42:00 -
[703] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:So where's the stickied thread to replace this as a place to discuss moderation? I said you wanted to bury the topic, not explode it (as locking or deleting it would). In the meantime, how has this thread "fulfilled its purpose" of CCP Navigator wrote:Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering.
Because people like you turned something that could be potentially civilized and engage in constructive criticism instead utilized passive aggressive methods of communication and outright blasting the ISD and CCP.
Did they make mistakes? Yes, sure crap went down and they are trying to rectify it. But then you and others come along just blasting them instead of trying to do something constructive. It's a wonder this doesn't just get locked (and I hope it does).
Discussing forum moderation technically isn't even allowed. This is CCP's forum, not yours. If they have ISD running some parts of it, and the ISD mess up, that isn't your que to just bash CCP and ISD.
If you're going to criticize, do it with civility. Otherwise, kindly shut the **** up. You were previously civil and analytical in your posts here and I agreed with a lot you said, now you're just being an *******. A paragon like example of all that is wrong with the Eve Community. |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
1537
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:46:00 -
[704] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules?
Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.:
When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else.
If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem. CCP Navigator -Community Manager |
|
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
576
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:50:00 -
[705] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:So where's the stickied thread to replace this as a place to discuss moderation? I said you wanted to bury the topic, not explode it (as locking or deleting it would). In the meantime, how has this thread "fulfilled its purpose" of CCP Navigator wrote:Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering. Because people like you turned something that could be potentially civilized and engage in constructive criticism instead utilized passive aggressive methods of communication and outright blasting the ISD and CCP. Did they make mistakes? Yes, sure crap went down and they are trying to rectify it. But then you and others come along just blasting them instead of trying to do something constructive. It's a wonder this doesn't just get locked (and I hope it does). Discussing forum moderation technically isn't even allowed. This is CCP's forum, not yours. If they have ISD running some parts of it, and the ISD mess up, that isn't your que to just bash CCP and ISD. If you're going to criticize, do it with civility. Otherwise, kindly shut the **** up. You were previously civil and analytical in your posts here and I agreed with a lot you said, now you're just being an *******. A paragon like example of all that is wrong with the Eve Community.
Anslo is absolutely right.
Pipa Porto, if you are still eager to continue with your nonsensical crusade, there is always other alternatives. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
394
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 17:10:00 -
[706] - Quote
I like how Pipa suddenly stops replying when she tauted that this thread will stay active and on top since the "problem is still fresh and can't be buried."
Who's trying to bury things now |
Pipa Porto
1180
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 17:18:00 -
[707] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules? Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem.
And, as I keep trying to point out, the current rules do not prohibit the thing that ISD Suvetar claimed was prohibited.
To my knowledge, prohibiting something not previously prohibited is generally considered creating a new rule. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 17:21:00 -
[708] - Quote
Anslo wrote:I like how Pipa suddenly stops replying when she tauted that this thread will stay active and on top since the "problem is still fresh and can't be buried." Who's trying to bury things now
Pipa's point still stands and it is a perfectly valid one; why will we be leaving the forums without an official thread where we encourage people to discuss the moderation on the forums. Let's not cross over to bashing country as I will not allow it!
But to answer the point: I will put up a stickied thread after the seminar, probably at the start of next week. CCP Gargant | Community Representative |
|
Pipa Porto
1181
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 17:33:00 -
[709] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:Anslo wrote:I like how Pipa suddenly stops replying when she tauted that this thread will stay active and on top since the "problem is still fresh and can't be buried." Who's trying to bury things now Pipas point still stands and it is a perfectly valid one; why will we be leaving the forums without an official thread where we encourage people to discuss the moderation on the forums. Let's not cross over to bashing country as I will not allow it! But to answer the point: I will put up a stickied thread after the seminar, probably at the start of next week.
Wonderful. Hopefully it can be filled with pages of posts that look like the middle of this thread*.
*The most productive part, after the first part which had a lot of "welp the CCL idea has failed" and before we got bogged down in simply reporting on a series of crises.
As I've said a number of times. I hope the CCL can succeed. But I think they need much more training and experience (the old refrain "lurk moar" comes to mind) to be successful. There's only so many times you can claim growing pains without it becoming farcical. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
394
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 17:36:00 -
[710] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
Wonderful. Hopefully it can be filled with pages of posts that look like the middle of this thread*.
*The most productive part, after the first part which had a lot of "welp the CCL idea has failed" and before we got bogged down in simply reporting on a series of crises.
As I've said a number of times. I hope the CCL can succeed. But I think they need much more training and experience (the old refrain "lurk moar" comes to mind) to be successful. There's only so many times you can claim growing pains without it becoming farcical.
See, want moar posts like this.
I'm sorry to have called you out Pipa, I normally like your analytical ramblings, but you were just getting kind....
But yes, I agree. Less ranting and bashing, moar constructive problem solving \o/ |
|
mkint
893
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 17:37:00 -
[711] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules? Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem. And, as I keep trying to point out, the current rules do not prohibit the thing that ISD Suvetar claimed was prohibited. To my knowledge, prohibiting something not previously prohibited is generally considered creating a new rule. Were you being an ass with said moderation? Because there is a rule about that. Stop trying to be a rules lawyer and try being a human being. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
F'elch
Wall Street Trading
4
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 18:16:00 -
[712] - Quote
So due to the lack of moderation on the forums this evening, can I assume that the existing ISD helpy helpers have already been taken outside and shot? |
DarkSim Market
Gangnam Style.
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 18:29:00 -
[713] - Quote
These forums seriously need quadruple the amount of moderation and PERMANENT bans. You know its bad when a cesspit like kugu has higher quality discussion then the official forum. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
395
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 18:37:00 -
[714] - Quote
Mods are asleep. Post planets. |
F'elch
Wall Street Trading
4
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:18:00 -
[715] - Quote
Ooh... |
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:27:00 -
[716] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules?
Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem.
we have a problem all right, if you think the community is well served by the volunteers & your attitude you're out of your volcan mind. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
397
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:29:00 -
[717] - Quote
III ZiggyBang wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules?
Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem. we have a problem all right, if you think the community is well served by the volunteers & your attitude you're out of your volcan mind.
Can you blame him with all the crap the community gives him? There's a difference between tyrannical devs and devs reacting to an assholish community.
Rules are simple in respect to what Navigator said. You respect employees AND volunteers. No exceptions.
Their forums.
Their rules.
Can't deal with it? GTFO. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
265
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:31:00 -
[718] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:So where's the stickied thread to replace this as a place to discuss moderation? I said you wanted to bury the topic, not explode it (as locking or deleting it would). In the meantime, how has this thread "fulfilled its purpose" of CCP Navigator wrote:Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering. Because people like you turned something that could be potentially civilized and engage in constructive criticism instead utilized passive aggressive methods of communication and outright blasting the ISD and CCP. Did they make mistakes? Yes, sure crap went down and they are trying to rectify it. But then you and others come along just blasting them instead of trying to do something constructive. It's a wonder this doesn't just get locked (and I hope it does). Discussing forum moderation technically isn't even allowed. This is CCP's forum, not yours. If they have ISD running some parts of it, and the ISD mess up, that isn't your que to just bash CCP and ISD. If you're going to criticize, do it with civility. Otherwise, kindly shut the **** up. You were previously civil and analytical in your posts here and I agreed with a lot you said, now you're just being an *******. A paragon like example of all that is wrong with the Eve Community.
Oh please ........ you have your head so far up there a**, I'm truly surprised you can see to read let alone write this drivel
Tal -áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Lord Ryan
True Xero
699
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:31:00 -
[719] - Quote
III ZiggyBang wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules?
Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem. we have a problem all right, if you think the community is well served by the volunteers & your attitude you're out of your volcan mind.
+1 More hostile tha a drunk college kid. Think you might want to see if that petition system actually works. It doesn't, but maybe you should give it a go. Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:32:00 -
[720] - Quote
will you please just shutup, you are the worst shitposter I've seen in ages. |
|
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
265
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:33:00 -
[721] - Quote
Anslo wrote:III ZiggyBang wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules?
Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem. we have a problem all right, if you think the community is well served by the volunteers & your attitude you're out of your volcan mind. Can you blame him with all the crap the community gives him? There's a difference between tyrannical devs and devs reacting to an assholish community. Rules are simple in respect to what Navigator said. You respect employees AND volunteers. No exceptions. Their forums. Their rules. Can't deal with it? GTFO.
CCP Alt ?
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
397
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:33:00 -
[722] - Quote
III ZiggyBang wrote:will you please just shutup, you are the worst shitposter I've seen in ages.
When you stop bitching about company employee's acting well within their realm and rights, I might consider it. Otherwise, go biomass. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2655
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:35:00 -
[723] - Quote
III ZiggyBang wrote:will you please just shutup, you are the worst shitposter I've seen in ages.
Apparently you haven't been here long. I've seen worse "A genius throws a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that he's going to die choking in a maze of smoke and flame. A hero drinks a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that if he does a split in midair, he can hit twice as many zombies per kick. Drunk hero wins again, wusses." ~Cracked.com |
Reticle
Sight Picture
46
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:41:00 -
[724] - Quote
DarkSim Market wrote:These forums seriously need quadruple the amount of moderation and PERMANENT bans. You know its bad when a cesspit like kugu has higher quality discussion then the official forum. Quadruple? lol. You're an idiot.
I've got a "better" proposal. CCP needs to put out decent documentation on their game so people don't have to visit the goddamn forums for every little question. Since that will kill the majority of posts, that leaves us with intractable arguments (carebears are evil vs. pvp'ers are evil) and arguments about how things "should be," which are actually encouraged by CCP in their Features and Ideas type threads. Kill all the intractable argument threads and that will leave us with only the threads in which CCP solicits our feedback. Which they could also do by way surveys through the client/UI/game.
So, who needs the ******* forums? "Problem" solved.
If you're going to give people a place to talk about stuff, the moderators need to stay out of the way. They should be concerned only with the most egregious violations with stuff like hate speech and go back to blowing ships up rather than pretending they work for CCP. |
Reticle
Sight Picture
46
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:42:00 -
[725] - Quote
Anslo wrote:III ZiggyBang wrote:will you please just shutup, you are the worst shitposter I've seen in ages. When you stop bitching about company employee's acting well within their realm and rights, I might consider it. Otherwise, go biomass. EDIT: If you don't like me, block me. Feature is there for a reason. Why don't you apply that logic to the posters you think should be moderated?
Cause you're stupid. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
398
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:44:00 -
[726] - Quote
Reticle wrote:Anslo wrote:III ZiggyBang wrote:will you please just shutup, you are the worst shitposter I've seen in ages. When you stop bitching about company employee's acting well within their realm and rights, I might consider it. Otherwise, go biomass. EDIT: If you don't like me, block me. Feature is there for a reason. Why don't you apply that logic to the posters you think should be moderated? Cause you're stupid.
Because I hate you :) |
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 22:30:00 -
[727] - Quote
I think it's necessary to sticky another post with information on how to petition/email complaints. even if we can no longer discuss moderation anywhere people should have the information available to make formal complaints. |
None ofthe Above
340
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 02:24:00 -
[728] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later. Oh that is disappointing. The one place on the forums where moderation could be discussed has fulfilled it's purpose? You no longer feel that should be allowed? Please reconsider. Almost the first thing I did when I came into the forums was to acknowledge that there needs to be a place to discuss moderation in the general sense rather than specific instances of it. I am very much ready to discuss my own opinions regarding ways of moderation. This thread served that purpose, true, but it currently does more bad than good due to events that negatively affected it over the summer that I myself had nothing to do with because I wasn't a part of the Community Team yet. Removing the sticky on this thread is not an attempt to bury it or hide it. I can lock and delete for that. I'm trying to convey the point that we know things aren't in their best possible state yet and we are actively working towards getting them there. The seminar will be held this week as I said, and we will continue on from there. I'm not promising anything because I want to be able to deliver, but I can say that I have a specific goal and I am working towards that.
Thank you. Being able to discuss the moderation policies keeps things from getting out of hand. Even if things do get a little heated sometimes, its been a useful thread. I can understand the desire to not carry all the baggage.
Not sure if the "place" needs to be a pinned thread in eve general, but it suffices. Sub-forum somewhere might work too.
EVE is a sandbox; The only "end-game" content in EVE is the crap that makes you rage-quit.
|
Lord Ryan
True Xero
701
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 02:47:00 -
[729] - Quote
Quote:The future of Community and CCL
Hopefully a short one. Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
266
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 07:57:00 -
[730] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:This thread has fulfilled its purpose. It is about time to unsticky it as it has derailed in such a fashion that hurts the initial message we wanted to bring across. Yes we are still going through the growing pains and yes there is still room to improve, but this has become something else entirely.
The CCL seminar that Navigator mentioned will be held this week with the exact time and date to be announced later. Oh that is disappointing. The one place on the forums where moderation could be discussed has fulfilled it's purpose? You no longer feel that should be allowed? Please reconsider. Almost the first thing I did when I came into the forums was to acknowledge that there needs to be a place to discuss moderation in the general sense rather than specific instances of it. I am very much ready to discuss my own opinions regarding ways of moderation. This thread served that purpose, true, but it currently does more bad than good due to events that negatively affected it over the summer that I myself had nothing to do with because I wasn't a part of the Community Team yet. Removing the sticky on this thread is not an attempt to bury it or hide it. I can lock and delete for that. I'm trying to convey the point that we know things aren't in their best possible state yet and we are actively working towards getting them there. The seminar will be held this week as I said, and we will continue on from there. I'm not promising anything because I want to be able to deliver, but I can say that I have a specific goal and I am working towards that.
So why un sticky, this was put here for that reason in the first place. To un sticky this then say your going to create another thread to do the same thing sounds like someone acting first then thinking afterwards....
You should have just left it alone rather than again damaging relations...
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
399
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 10:09:00 -
[731] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:Quote:The future of Community and CCL Hopefully a short one. Thirty odd pages and finally the whole situation summed up in a few words.
Kudos to you. WARNING: The current poster is erratic, prone to error and generally blissfully unaware due to the taking of many hard drugs over the course of many years - most of them legal. |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
297
|
Posted - 2012.10.11 04:29:00 -
[732] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:OlRotGut wrote:Make posting cost ISK.
Make user rating increase or decrease said ISK fee to post
Allow the author of the thread to delete 'trolling' posts for a cost of ISK.
You suck at posting, your user rating suffers, your posts now cost xx more ISK
Just a thought and I know it could be expanded upon.
Unfortunately, this would be way too open to abuse. Hence why moderation should never be done by the OP (especially as we have OPs that troll too).
This is bunk because the abuse is confined to the OPs 1 thread where as censorship institutionalized is system wide. If I hate carebears and have mod power I can very subtlety censor threads from those who harbor that opinion.
It sounds like an injection of precondition from someone with a fringe opinion looking to justify their existence in everyone's thread.
It's also insulting to the majority of good people who post. Telling me i'm incapable of fairly handling moderation of my own thread but ISD magically becomes a neutral force of good. I'll end here as to not go too far. |
Pipa Porto
1191
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 10:45:00 -
[733] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:I think the real fear is that a few very eloquent posters who really capture the spirit of the community would have the ability to interject ideas that the majority likes and the vocal minority wouldn't be able to troll the thread into derailment skirting the rules of conduct.
No, the problem is that your idea would turn each thread into it's own fishbowl for the OP and whatever flunkies/sockpuppets they might have.
Your claim that other threads would check this behavior is ridiculous, as all the badposter OP would have to do would be claim the counter threads are just the result of that OP censoring their thread.
At best, it risks splitting every thread with a hint of contention into two threads yelling at each other. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Taranius De Consolville
Curse Of The Chosen
239
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 10:48:00 -
[734] - Quote
Your team is an effin joke
They are biased, un educated morons who lock topics they don't want to read about and keep open troll topics by moronic alliance people who cant string an educated idea together
Get a real forum officer
Not the idiots with no lives you currently have |
Alice Saki
10361
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 10:52:00 -
[735] - Quote
Taranius De Consolville wrote:Your team is an effin joke
They are biased, un educated morons who lock topics they don't want to read about and keep open troll topics by moronic alliance people who cant string an educated idea together
Get a real forum officer
Not the idiots with no lives you currently have
You make me laugh. Scottish Interweb Spaceshippy Person, Very Easily Confused. I like to show my Love by Smashing people in the face with a big Hammer.
|
Taranius De Consolville
Curse Of The Chosen
239
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 10:56:00 -
[736] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:Taranius De Consolville wrote:Your team is an effin joke
They are biased, un educated morons who lock topics they don't want to read about and keep open troll topics by moronic alliance people who cant string an educated idea together
Get a real forum officer
Not the idiots with no lives you currently have You make me laugh.
Post with your main u little coward and ill see how much you laugh then, easy to hide behind alts isnt it? |
Alice Saki
10366
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 11:16:00 -
[737] - Quote
Prrrf I've never hid my main, This one is just better :P Scottish Interweb Spaceshippy Person, Very Easily Confused. I like to show my Love by Smashing people in the face with a big Hammer.
|
Lord Ryan
True Xero
716
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 18:29:00 -
[738] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules?
Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem.
There needs to be some oversight here. This guy is clearly hostile toward the player base. We have no recourse. File petition, he'll just delete it. Someone at CCP who's not involved with the Eve community team needs to review the petitions. Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
415
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 18:41:00 -
[739] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules?
Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem. There needs to be some oversight here. This guy is clearly hostile toward the player base. We have no recourse. File petition, he'll just delete it. Someone at CCP who's not involved with the Eve community team needs to review the petitions.
Hostility begets hostility. People can frame certain questions certain ways. Pipa framed hers in a hostile manner, plain and simple. People are assholes in this thread, so assholery will be given back to them. Act civily, and you get civility.
They TRIED to be professional and you bittervet assholes just tear them up. They should have just outright ban people instead of giving them warning. Nothing would be lost anyway. |
Lord Ryan
True Xero
716
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 18:56:00 -
[740] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Lord Ryan wrote:CCP Navigator wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Any news on the ISDs new self appointed ability to create rules?
Here is the only rule you really need to be concerned about.: When you run the EVE Community team you can make all the rules you like and enforce them as you see fit. Until that time we would invite you to follow the current forum rules and show some respect to those staff and volunteers who aim to make it a better place for everyone else. If that is something you feel is not within your power then we may have a problem. There needs to be some oversight here. This guy is clearly hostile toward the player base. We have no recourse. File petition, he'll just delete it. Someone at CCP who's not involved with the Eve community team needs to review the petitions. Hostility begets hostility. People can frame certain questions certain ways. Pipa framed hers in a hostile manner, plain and simple. People are assholes in this thread, so assholery will be given back to them. Act civily, and you get civility. They TRIED to be professional and you bittervet assholes just tear them up. They should have just outright ban people instead of giving them warning. Nothing would be lost anyway.
You should be the first. Any part of my post vulgar? I try to contribute and enjoy the community I pay to be member. It goes good untill some ISD logs in and starts griefing a player. Nine times out of ten it's ISD's action towards one of you that sets me off. The other could have been found in the T2 BPO thread. Do you think the number of people who are tired of this whole business is small? How many of can Eve afford to lose?
And I'm no more of a Pipa fan than I am yours. I just can't believe the guy in charge, is the it's my house my rules I can change them any time I want screw you if you don't like guy! Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
|
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
416
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 18:58:00 -
[741] - Quote
That's the business world. ISD don't grief btw, they enforce. Unruly mobs beget unruly policing. |
Josef Djugashvilis
679
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 20:54:00 -
[742] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:I think the real fear is that a few very eloquent posters who really capture the spirit of the community would have the ability to interject ideas that the majority likes and the vocal minority wouldn't be able to troll the thread into derailment skirting the rules of conduct. No, the problem is that your idea would turn each thread into it's own fishbowl for the OP and whatever flunkies/sockpuppets they might have. Your claim that other threads would check this behavior is ridiculous, as all the badposter OP would have to do would be claim the counter threads are just the result of that OP censoring their thread. At best, it risks splitting every thread with a hint of contention into two threads yelling at each other.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a 'sockpuppet'? This is not a signature. |
Pipa Porto
1192
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 01:42:00 -
[743] - Quote
Anslo wrote: Hostility begets hostility. People can frame certain questions certain ways. Pipa framed hers in a hostile manner, plain and simple. People are assholes in this thread, so assholery will be given back to them. Act civily, and you get civility.
They TRIED to be professional and you bittervet assholes just tear them up. They should have just outright ban people instead of giving them warning. Nothing would be lost anyway.
I did phrase my question civilly. Back on page 32.
After a week and a half of dodging the initial question and focusing instead on trying to convince everyone that ISDs aren't making new rules when they prohibit something not prohibited by the rules, and an attempt to bury the thread, I got a little snippy.
Instead of answering the initial question, CCP Navigator decided to latch onto this and keep running the topic off the rails.
By the way, 2 weeks later, nobody's answered the initial question over whether Killmails can be posted in GD or whether (as ISD Suvetar claims) the rules of other subforums apply to posting in GD. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
1192
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 01:44:00 -
[744] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but what is a 'sockpuppet'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)
Essentially an alt used to make it appear as if there are multiple sources of independent support for something. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Mara Rinn
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1920
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 01:52:00 -
[745] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but what is a 'sockpuppet'?
Sock puppet: specifically in EVE terms, a forum posting alt used to provide the illusion that a forum poster has friends, supporters, or respect. Sock puppets are also useful for asking "Dorothy Dix" questions, or for making foolish statements which the controlling player can then refute in an attempt to improve their forum k/d ratio.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1920
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 01:58:00 -
[746] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:I think the real fear is that a few very eloquent posters who really capture the spirit of the community would have the ability to interject ideas that the majority likes and the vocal minority wouldn't be able to troll the thread into derailment skirting the rules of conduct.
The fear is that there are so few eloquent posters who really capture the spirit of the community, and so many trolls.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
294
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 02:17:00 -
[747] - Quote
Hi,
Just to give you an update on the Killmail thing.
As of right now, the position we're sticking to is that posting killmails leads to trolling, and will be dealt with as an application of forum rule 7.
forum rules wrote: 7. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.
You may be pleased to know however, that we've been discussing this internally, a lot. I don't know what the final decision is going to be, but I just wanted to assure you that we're not brushing this under the carpet.
Don't forget that there is a ISD seminar for the CCL team tomorrow and people will have the chance to ask questions of representatives of both the CCL team and the CCP Community team.
Have at look at this thread for details.
Thanks and fly safe. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
1194
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 02:27:00 -
[748] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi, Just to give you an update on the Killmail thing. As of right now, the position we're sticking to is that posting killmails leads to trolling, and will be dealt with as an application of forum rule 7. forum rules wrote: 7. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.
You may be pleased to know however, that we've been discussing this internally, a lot. I don't know what the final decision is going to be, but I just wanted to assure you that we're not brushing this under the carpet. Don't forget that there is a ISD seminar for the CCL team tomorrow and people will have the chance to ask questions of representatives of both the CCL team and the CCP Community team. Have at look at this thread for details. Thanks and fly safe.
Has anyone come up with the idea of, say, moderating the trolling posts that you claim posting killmails invariably leads to?
What justification are you using to claim that posting killmails is, in and of itself, "deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players"? So far, the only thing you've posted to back that claim was a subforum rule stating that posting killmails was to be considered trolling in that subforum. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
295
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 02:32:00 -
[749] - Quote
Pipa,
I am not going to get into word games with you about this.
Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Pipa Porto
1194
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 02:38:00 -
[750] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Pipa,
I am not going to get into word games with you about this.
Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with.
You're saying that posting killmails is a violation of rule 7. Rule 7 specifically defines what it prohibits. How is asking you to explain how posting a killmail will always fit that definition getting into "word games"?
By the way, specific example of how posting killmails is not trolling: The various miner ganking threads, where miners claimed that they were being ganked regardless of tank. If posting killmails were not allowed, they would be able to keep making that false claim without anyone being able to call them out on the fact that nobody's ever produced a killmail of a heavily tanked Hulk. How is posting killmails to provide evidence of a claim "deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players"? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
1924
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:08:00 -
[751] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Suvetar wrote:Pipa,
I am not going to get into word games with you about this.
Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with. You're saying that posting killmails is a violation of rule 7. Rule 7 specifically defines what it prohibits. How is asking you to explain how posting a killmail will always fit that definition getting into "word games"?
Here's a challenge for you then Pipa: classify the posts containing killmails into two groups: those where the thread degenerated into trolling, and those which didn't.
Go! Find! Report!
As an aside, do you agree with the philosophy of "nipping it in the bud" when it comes to controlling weeds and unwanted growth in a garden?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
417
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:12:00 -
[752] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Suvetar wrote:Pipa,
I am not going to get into word games with you about this.
Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with. rabble rabble."
You seriously have the loudest and most obnoxious attitude. I just wish they'd ban you with the rest of the undesirables. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
1924
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:15:00 -
[753] - Quote
Anslo wrote:You seriously have the loudest and most obnoxious attitude. I just wish they'd ban you with the rest of the undesirables.
How would Pipa learn to be a good citizen without the ability to try to be better?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Becka Goldbeck
10
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:21:00 -
[754] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Suvetar wrote:Pipa,
I am not going to get into word games with you about this.
Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with. rabble rabble." You seriously have the loudest and most obnoxious attitude. I just wish they'd ban you with the rest of the undesirables.
How will you express your sanctimoniousness without 'undesirables' around?
What would you even talk about?
Also, who says you aren't an undesirable? I think you just insulted Pipa. I know you won't be moderated for it because you're on the ISD's side. But isn't that "undesirable" behavior? |
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
714
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:34:00 -
[755] - Quote
Hi folks. I just want to remind you that arguing for the sake of arguing is counter productive. When we moderate, we do so as impartially as we can. So if someone attacks someone else, we have to step in and stop it. We don't pick sides, we just do the best we can to keep it civil. Hopefully that gets the point I'm trying to make across. Thank you. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Commander Community Communication Liasions (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5151
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:40:00 -
[756] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:As an aside, do you agree with the philosophy of "nipping it in the bud" when it comes to controlling weeds and unwanted growth in a garden?
In gardening, sure, because in 100% of cases weeds and unwanted growth lead to problems. But are killmails trollbait even in 50% of cases on these forums? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Federation posting cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online posting.
fofofofofo |
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:41:00 -
[757] - Quote
There are always a few morally bankrupt individuals ready to don the black shirts & do the unjust bidding of their corrupt overlords. Even if it is on a volunteer basis. delete away guys, just know by using these tactics to control discussion, thought, ideas, you are no better than the worst kind of Dictator & an enemy of everything that's worth fighting for on this planet. There are worse things than some trolling & inappropriate comments, I personally find the level of pithy, punitive, arbitrary moderation here an assault & offense far worse than anything else the community can come up with. CCP you are the bad guys here not the playerbase.
CCP you should be downright ashamed of yourselves for taking this approach, whoever came up with this idea, for whatever reasons, is an enemy of the people & a disgrace & has no respect for the things most of us hold dear. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
779
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:45:00 -
[758] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi,
Just to give you an update on the Killmail thing.
As of right now, the position we're sticking to is that posting killmails leads to trolling, and will be dealt with as an application of forum rule 7.
But what if we are already trolling, can we then link a killmail legally?
Or what if the only way to stop trolls is to link a killmail. Is it legal too?
What if I have fake permission from CCP to link killmails, will that work?
What if I am drunk? I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Corpse Bride
The Justified Ancients of Mu-Mu
29
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:53:00 -
[759] - Quote
III ZiggyBang wrote:There are always a few morally bankrupt individuals ready to don the black shirts & do the unjust bidding of their corrupt overlords.
There are worse things than some trolling & inappropriate comments
CCP you are the bad guys here not the playerbase.
CCP you should be downright ashamed of yourselves
This coming from the guy who openly associates the murderers of millions of innocent people and other atrocities, with forum volunteers who keep this place sane.
I don't have words to describe how sickening you are.
|
Becka Goldbeck
10
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 21:56:00 -
[760] - Quote
Does anyone remember Akita T? I'm not sure if he's still around but I'll use his posting as an example. Back when the old forums were closing Akita T was close to becoming the top poster, and accomplished this after a flurry of posts. Forum posting can be a hobby, some forum posters may lurk around a forum, searching, waiting for something they can comment on. They collect little thumbs ups or build their post count.
This becomes a problem when you introduce forum posters with special moderation privileges. These ISD posters lurk around this forum, searching, waiting for something to moderate on. Not only does this lead to overzealous moderation but because they're clearly doing it as a hobby, often after putting their 2 cents in they'll promptly lock the thread. They'll even go so far as to edit or delete dissenting posts.
When this happens, ISD's develop a sort of unholy following of regular forum posters who are quick to bandwagon against anything they think could be or will be moderated. This boosts the ISD's ego leading to even more enthusiastic moderation and it makes the regular forum posters feel good that they were on the 'winning' side. But it's really a false contest, there's no winning and losing side, the entire thing is being created by the overzealous moderators themselves.
I think that the ISD's should have their moderation powers immediately revoked as they're creating more hostility than they would have or could have ever solved.
(this thread was locked) |
|
Corpse Bride
The Justified Ancients of Mu-Mu
29
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:02:00 -
[761] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote: Edit: Snipped personal attack - ISD Suvetar.
Sorry...
Becka Goldbeck wrote:Does anyone remember Akita T? I'm not sure if he's still around but I'll use his posting as an example. Back when the old forums were closing Akita T was close to becoming the top poster, and accomplished this after a flurry of posts. Forum posting can be a hobby, some forum posters may lurk around a forum, searching, waiting for something they can comment on. They collect little thumbs ups or build their post count.
This becomes a problem when you introduce forum posters with special moderation privileges. These ISD posters lurk around this forum, searching, waiting for something to moderate on. Not only does this lead to overzealous moderation but because they're clearly doing it as a hobby, often after putting their 2 cents in they'll promptly lock the thread. They'll even go so far as to edit or delete dissenting posts.
When this happens, ISD's develop a sort of unholy following of regular forum posters who are quick to bandwagon against anything they think could be or will be moderated. This boosts the ISD's ego leading to even more enthusiastic moderation and it makes the regular forum posters feel good that they were on the 'winning' side. But it's really a false contest, there's no winning and losing side, the entire thing is being created by the overzealous moderators themselves.
I think that the ISD's should have their moderation powers immediately revoked as they're creating more hostility than they would have or could have ever solved.
(this thread was locked)
You realise your 'thread' was locked because you broke the rules ? You realise that ISD are here because people break the rules ? *all the time* You realise that almost everything you've ever posted has been slagging off ISD ?
Why are you projecting on to them so much - what happened to you ? |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1295
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:06:00 -
[762] - Quote
Becka Goldbeck wrote:These ISD posters lurk around this forum, searching, waiting for something to moderate on. Not only does this lead to overzealous moderation but because they're clearly doing it as a hobby, often after putting their 2 cents in they'll promptly lock the thread.
You see that little flag top of the posts? That's what others use to call in the ISD reinforcements. "Why god the enemy is within our own ranks!" |
Becka Goldbeck
12
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:09:00 -
[763] - Quote
Corpse Bride wrote: You realise your 'thread' was locked because you broke the rules ? You realise that ISD are here because people break the rules ? *all the time*
This doesn't address what I just said at all.
Quote:You realise that almost everything you've ever posted has been slagging off ISD ? Why are you projecting on to them so much - what happened to you ?
This character, yes. But I've posted on lots of different ones. I'm not projecting anything on them I think this entire idea is rubbish and a failed experiment resulting from a community team who wants to delegate the entirety of their workload onto the player-base.
|
Corpse Bride
The Justified Ancients of Mu-Mu
29
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:15:00 -
[764] - Quote
Becka Goldbeck wrote:Corpse Bride wrote: You realise your 'thread' was locked because you broke the rules ? You realise that ISD are here because people break the rules ? *all the time*
This doesn't address what I just said at all.
It addresses your need to write (this thread was locked) at the bottom of your post; you just proved your own reason for why ISD exists.
You know that there's been forum moderation practiced by volunteers since 2003 ? The only thing melting down here is your ripping this place apart to prove that ISD have some vendetta or god knows what else.
Edit: FYP - ISD Suvetar |
Becka Goldbeck
13
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:18:00 -
[765] - Quote
Corpse Bride wrote: The only thing melting down here is your ripping this place apart to prove that ISD have some vendetta or god knows what else.
I only posted in one other thread besides the one I made. I only included (thread was locked) because I copy and pasted it over from the thread I made. |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
324
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:21:00 -
[766] - Quote
Becka,
Let me draw your attention to something I wrote last night in another thread:
regarding ccl
I hope it might reassure you about the checks and balances that are maintained to ensure that we don't turn into a overzealous moderation monster. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:31:00 -
[767] - Quote
Becka Goldbeck wrote:Does anyone remember Akita T? I'm not sure if he's still around but I'll use his posting as an example. Back when the old forums were closing Akita T was close to becoming the top poster, and accomplished this after a flurry of posts. Forum posting can be a hobby, some forum posters may lurk around a forum, searching, waiting for something they can comment on. They collect little thumbs ups or build their post count.
This becomes a problem when you introduce forum posters with special moderation privileges. These ISD posters lurk around this forum, searching, waiting for something to moderate on. Not only does this lead to overzealous moderation but because they're clearly doing it as a hobby, often after putting their 2 cents in they'll promptly lock the thread. They'll even go so far as to edit or delete dissenting posts.
When this happens, ISD's develop a sort of unholy following of regular forum posters who are quick to bandwagon against anything they think could be or will be moderated. This boosts the ISD's ego leading to even more enthusiastic moderation and it makes the regular forum posters feel good that they were on the 'winning' side. But it's really a false contest, there's no winning and losing side, the entire thing is being created by the overzealous moderators themselves.
I think that the ISD's should have their moderation powers immediately revoked as they're creating more hostility than they would have or could have ever solved.
(this thread was locked) excellent, so well put. |
Becka Goldbeck
17
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:33:00 -
[768] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Becka, Let me draw your attention to something I wrote last night in another thread: regarding cclI hope it might reassure you about the checks and balances that are maintained to ensure that we don't turn into a overzealous moderation monster.
To be honest it doesn't, I don't think your intentions are bad and I'm not directing anything at you individually. But I think the track record thus far of the ISD as a whole has been overzealous and I think the problems I elaborated on above can't be avoided by good intentions. It's just the nature of this arrangement and how people are. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1296
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:48:00 -
[769] - Quote
Becka Goldbeck wrote: and how people are. Direct CCP moderation would be no less impervious to bias and personal feelings as any other individual volunteer slippage. People are people and they can get carried away. CCP employees can be players just like the rest of us and have their own allegiances. The job and duty is to ignore the game and enforce the rules. So it doesn't matter where the moderation comes from, the effect is the same. As ISD has mentioned time and again, there is a checks and balance system. Same thing would exist if CCP was covering it internally. |
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:53:00 -
[770] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Becka Goldbeck wrote: and how people are. Direct CCP moderation would be no less impervious to bias and personal feelings as any other individual volunteer slippage. People are people and they can get carried away. CCP employees can be players just like the rest of us and have their own allegiances. The job and duty is to ignore the game and enforce the rules. So it doesn't matter where the moderation comes from, the effect is the same. As ISD has mentioned time and again, there is a checks and balance system. Same thing would exist if CCP was covering it internally.
yeah, that's not true, you're new I get it. please limit your comments, I assume to wit; sucking up to the ISD to advance your application, to subjects you actually know about. That should reduce you post count to nearly zero for the foreseeable future, not a bad thing imho. |
|
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1296
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 22:56:00 -
[771] - Quote
III ZiggyBang wrote: yeah, that's not true.
Once upon a time, there was a little alliance called BoB... |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
324
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 23:07:00 -
[772] - Quote
Becka Goldbeck wrote: To be honest it doesn't, I don't think your intentions are bad and I'm not directing anything at you individually. But I think the track record thus far of the ISD as a whole has been overzealous and I think the problems I elaborated on above can't be avoided by good intentions. It's just the nature of this arrangement and how people are.
Hi,
There have been incidents of overzealousness in the past, I'll grant you that. If you attended the seminar yesterday you'll know that part of my job is to manage these incidents and coach my moderators on how to better apply the very limited tools that we have at our disposal.
I can't and won't mention names but I have been involved with people being removed from ISD entirely for gross violations of player trust.
You're clearly intelligent and you care a lot about this community; believe me when I say that I'd rather have you posting on-topic then not!
You know - perhaps you should apply to join the team ? We can always use people of passion for the community, it's the one common thing that we all have in our team. If you got in, it'd also prove to you that we're not doing what you think we're doing.
As a last thought just occurred to me, there is another plausible reason why we appear to be over-zealous at times. There are generally 3 of us who are active at this time, and we are the first line of people to deal with reported posts (unless the report is about a post that a CCL member has made) so that might explain why the same people are always seen to be applying the rules and therefore appearing heavy handed because of sheer volume.
It really isn't about good intentions though; it's my job to deal with ISD members who've not done their moderation correctly. You can help me though, if you see this overzealous behaviour it then report it. You can put "FAO CCL Leads" at the start of your report and it will get through to myself or ISD Eshtir, who's in charge of this team.
I mean this sincerely.
Edit - Regarding reports, don't use the enter key - it looks like it can take a large block of text but it truncates everything after the first carriage return. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
39
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 23:40:00 -
[773] - Quote
This is so simple it's embarrassing to CCP.
Employees care and follow rules because they get paid. (no matter what they say. Tell them paychecks aren't coming at the end of the week and see how many are still there the next)
Volunteers are just doing something because they have an ulterior motive. (no matter what they say. Yes, even your 90 year old granny that volunteers at the local children's hospital is doing it because she needs a reason to get up in the morning)
ISDs are by far one of the worst ideas in forum history. Below is perfect example of why. I had to lecture this guy in the new player forums because he didn't like my wording.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1869146#post1869146 |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
417
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 23:45:00 -
[774] - Quote
This thread needs locked and specific undesirable elements to the community and CCP's corporate interest need banned. |
Bane Necran
525
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 23:56:00 -
[775] - Quote
If they can't put their own bias and opinions aside to perform their task objectively, they should be removed. I think many times they're also taking the side of the negative and abusive forces you hope to control, and punishing anyone who stands up to them.
For example, if an ISD was behind my last forum ban, they should be fired into the sun. I know i'm not allowed to discuss details, but i believe it was conjured out of thin air due to something i said in a thread which they didn't like, but couldn't take action against me for that post in particular, because i'm generally polite to people even when they're frothing at the mouth and screaming obscenities, so they searched through my posts from weeks and weeks earlier until they found something in a long dead thread that could be considered mildly offensive and used that as an excuse to ban me. I can't think of any other reason it would have happened the way it did. I've been posting here for many years and was never banned until these ISD cowboys started running around.
note: technically i'm not discussing actual moderator actions, only theoretical ones that may have happened, so i don't think it's bannable, but feel free to ban me anyway if you're just itching to. I'll be sure to get the message this time. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham
Totally quitting this time for sure, maybe. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1296
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 23:56:00 -
[776] - Quote
Anslo wrote:This thread needs locked and specific undesirable elements to the community and CCP's corporate interest need banned. NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to CCP, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn! |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
325
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 00:06:00 -
[777] - Quote
Hi Minmatar Citizen,
I should like to point out that the post you're referring to was made by a member of the STAR team, not the CCL team, that this thread is specifically about.
But yes, of course we volunteers have an ulterior motive, no body is denying that - what I take objection to is the suggestion that the motive is to 'get one over' other forum posters or anything of that nature.
For one, you can't - I see what gets moderated and if I notice any odd patterns then I talk to the person involved and undo the action taken. Two, you can't do all that much, CCL team members are not permitted to be in-game or to moderate in any thread that involves their mains corp or alliance. As a lead, I can see the details of my team members and know who they are so I can also enforce this.
Of course you might argue then that it's my ulterior motive that could be suspect, but I'll be open about it: I do this because I enjoy this aspect of the community. I do it because I get to talk to CCP staff members and having been in ISD is helpful when getting employment with CCP. I do it, because I get my game account for free.
It's not much but its a payment of sorts.
Lastly, to suggest that a single misunderstanding between two people is a perfect example of ISD being 'by far one of the worst ideas in forum history; is ad hominem.
Have a look at the evelopedia ISD entry, we're a lot more than mere forum moderators. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
41
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:22:00 -
[778] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote: Lastly, to suggest that a single misunderstanding between two people is a perfect example of ISD being 'by far one of the worst ideas in forum history; is ad hominem.
Argumentum ad hominem? No, it's my personal opinion based on the abuses I've seen and experienced. I made no irrelevant personal attack to win an argument. My opinion is not based on that one experience. I merely referenced a good example.
As a customer, I don't have to understand the different job duties and who is "STAR" team...which does...who cares? PLAYERS are moderating your forums at such a rate that I have a hard time believing anyone has a handle on them and what they are doing to the OTHER customers voicing their personal opinions. I could understand having some guys on hand to remove pony pictures and other egregious violations but general moderation? No, I'm sorry put paid professionals with a background in something related to moderating other than "being an avid poster" is needed. Period. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2208
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 00:57:00 -
[779] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:ISD Suvetar wrote:Pipa,
I am not going to get into word games with you about this.
Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with. You're saying that posting killmails is a violation of rule 7. Rule 7 specifically defines what it prohibits. How is asking you to explain how posting a killmail will always fit that definition getting into "word games"? Here's a challenge for you then Pipa: classify the posts containing killmails into two groups: those where the thread degenerated into trolling, and those which didn't. Go! Find! Report! As an aside, do you agree with the philosophy of "nipping it in the bud" when it comes to controlling weeds and unwanted growth in a garden?
By that logic, my challenge to you would be to classify all the posts containing the word "the" into those two groups. I have noticed that most posts which lead into trolling contain that word, and thus the word must be banned, right?
Weeds are bad for gardens. Beans are not. Both are plants. Trolling is bad for the forums. Legitimate discussion is not. Both can involve killmails or the word "the."
By the way, the examples of trolling via killmails that have been pointed out (along the lines of "Durhurr look at this idiot") easily fit into the definition of Rule 7 with the killmail removed. Indicating that the presence or absence of a killmail is not at all a good test for trolling. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Guess Who's Back. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2208
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 01:07:00 -
[780] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Lastly, to suggest that a single misunderstanding between two people is a perfect example of ISD being 'by far one of the worst ideas in forum history; is ad hominem.
No, it's not. It doesn't follow the right form to be an ad hominem argument.
"You are wrong because you're a bad" is an ad hominem argument.
"You are bad" is not an argument, it is a statement. Therefore, it cannot be an example of argumentum ad hominem.
Saying that "a policy or program is a terrible idea because it produced terrible results" is a valid argument. You're free to argue that the results aren't terrible. You're free to argue that the policy or program isn't terrible even if the results are. Dismissing it as a fallacy is simply poisoning the well (a real fallacy).
I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong, but I don't think ISD's should be attempting to poison the well of discourse between them and a player. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Guess Who's Back. |
|
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
43
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 13:06:00 -
[781] - Quote
Just to not be all "ad hominem" here's another example. Where is there a personal attack that would cause a fast lock? A guy doing songs by request for isk to buy a super isn't in the spirit of sandbox games like EvE?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=167644&find=unread
(I'm not trying to discuss moderation, which I know is against the rules, nor cross post. I am giving examples of ISD moderation gone wild in a thread made by moderators about the future of PLAYER moderation. You asked for it; you got it.) |
|
CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
202
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 14:19:00 -
[782] - Quote
If you guys have something to say about the ISDs, petition it like we have asked you to do countless times now. Last week CCP Navigator made an announcement that we now have a zero tolerance policy towards berating the ISD. Please try to cooperate with us in our efforts. CCP Gargant | Community Representative |
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2210
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 14:49:00 -
[783] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:If you guys have something to say about the ISDs, petition it like we have asked you to do countless times now. Last week CCP Navigator made an announcement that we now have a zero tolerance policy towards berating the ISD. Please try to cooperate with us in our efforts.
So you're saying we can't discuss instances where ISD behavior is bad, only when it's good?
What's the point of this or the other moderation discussion thread then?
Pointing out bad acts in public is not "berating" anyone. It's pointing out actions and explaining why the actions are bad. Why you seem to have decided that the fact that those actions are attached to individuals and thus commentary about those actions is equivalent to commentary about the individuals is beyond me.
Wrongly accusing someone of making an argumentum ad hominem can be (and in this case is) an example of an attempt to poison the well.
Minmatar Citizen's statement that the ISD Program is bad also cannot be described as berating ISDs because the Program is not a person.
As for petitions, I'll use petitions to discuss problems with CCP employees the moment I'm allowed to make the content of those petitions public. Secret discussions are not valuable in discussing public policy. (Especially since I've seen the contents of a number of petitions where the GMs ended up getting quite nasty towards the players they're meant to be assisting. Including one that ended in a reversal and apology from a higher up to the player in question, though no apology from the GM who was being belligerent.) This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Guess Who's Back. |
flakeys
Angels of Anarchy Interstellar Confederation
391
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 15:02:00 -
[784] - Quote
Quote: Unfortunately I didn't actually see what happened, but it sounds like a thread was posted, replies were made that devolved into trolling, and the entire thread was locked wholesale without the OP getting an answer. Then a repeating feedback loop was created as subsequent threads were made to get that answer and of course, threads were locked for duplication and/or discussing moderation (first thread locked, continued BZZT! discussing moderation, etc.)
What probably should have happened was the moderators should have taken the time to remove or edit the offensive posts and make a post reminding people to politely stay on topic. Afterwards if the thread continued on course it could be locked wholesale and the forum users would not have much of a leg to stand on if they opposed the action.
I was following that thread and in my opinion what went wrong was the OP showed his concern about the eve-o forums wich he claimed to not have visited untill a few days back even if he was a 2003 player and then asked for a thread lock while the discussion still was going on because of a select few playing a bit of troll.In short he had a VERRY thin skin when it came to how people tend to behave on these forums.I was even surprised to be honest how little trolling that topic had compared to normal eve player behaviour on the forums.The OP of that thread new perfectly well what the forum behaviour was as his topic WAS just about that so i found it sad to say the least that he asked for a threadlock after some minor trolling.
I'm all for removing posts and locking threads in wich the language has taken an aggresive stance regarding rl threats , plain trolling page after page , etc but if you post on a forum you should also be prepared to get some kicking left and right.Hell i got my own share of kicks on the forums from people either plain trolling me or disagreeing with me in a not too healthy way but that never made me ask for a threadlock or a post removal.
In short if you post on public forums you gotta have some skin or just don't post there at all.You can perfectly play eve without using the forums so no one is forcing you to engage in this verbal pvp .There need to be rules but there also needs to be freedom in the same line of the game.Acting like 'my little pony' on the forum from a game where you play 'lick the dead skull' doesn't quite make sense to me.
I find the behaviour on this forum not that far off from the behaviour in the game and as we are still chatting here with the same avatar , corp tag and alliance tag it is normal to make the forum an enhancement of your character don't you think? There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed.-á |
|
CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
203
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 15:20:00 -
[785] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: So you're saying we can't discuss instances where ISD behavior is bad, only when it's good?
What's the point of this or the other moderation discussion thread then?
Pointing out bad acts in public is not "berating" anyone. It's pointing out actions and explaining why the actions are bad. Why you seem to have decided that the fact that those actions are attached to individuals and thus commentary about those actions is equivalent to commentary about the individuals is beyond me.
Wrongly accusing someone of making an argumentum ad hominem can be (and in this case is) an example of an attempt to poison the well.
Minmatar Citizen's statement that the ISD Program is bad also cannot be described as berating ISDs because the Program is not a person.
As for petitions, I'll use petitions to discuss problems with CCP employees the moment I'm allowed to make the content of those petitions public. Secret discussions are not valuable in discussing public policy. (Especially since I've seen the contents of a number of petitions where the GMs ended up getting quite nasty towards the players they're meant to be assisting. Including one that ended in a reversal and apology from a higher up to the player in question, though no apology from the GM who was being belligerent.)
For general discussions regarding the broad strokes of our moderation actions, for example asking why we lock some threads but not others, belongs in the moderation thread here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=163320
For specific instances of moderation, file a petition. Yes, discussing correspondence with CCP personnel is not allowed but this is the way we handle specific criticisms.
Any comments on the ISD moderators should be petitioned. Discussing anything regarding them directly on the forums will result in a timeout from the forums. Note that their moderation efforts are the same as ours so bring the broad strokes to the thread and the specifics for the petitions. They equal us in that sense.
Now. Stop twisting our words. Stop ignoring our instructions. Please direct all further discussions on our moderation methods to the thread I linked. I will delete all posts discussing that topic from this and all other threads as well. CCP Gargant | Community Representative |
|
Twoso
Hedion University Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 15:39:00 -
[786] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:Now. Stop twisting our words. Stop ignoring our instructions. Please direct all further discussions on our moderation methods to the thread I linked. I will delete all posts discussing that topic from this and all other threads as well.
I am really tired of this sort of thing from Devs/ISD. Stop power tripping. Stop giving commands. Stop being like this. You guys spend more time moderating than solving basic game problems. You want to power trip? Go do something about the clusterfuck you've created with the war dec system. |
|
CCP Dolan
C C P C C P Alliance
86
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 15:42:00 -
[787] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:For specific instances of moderation, file a petition. Yes, discussing correspondence with CCP personnel is not allowed but this is the way we handle specific criticisms.
Any comments on the ISD moderators should be petitioned. Discussing anything regarding them directly on the forums will result in a timeout from the forums. Note that their moderation efforts are the same as ours so bring the broad strokes to the thread and the specifics for the petitions. They equal us in that sense.
The other important aspect to note is that we CANNOT discuss or address issues of specific moderation or actions UNLESS you submit a petition. We have a system like this to ensure security and ethical behaviour in our CCP and CCL teams, and posting in the general forum about any specific instances does absolutely nothing to get your problems solved. If you have a problem, get it petitioned as soon as possible, get an answer from a CCP Employee, if you still feel unsatisfied then escalate your petition. Following the rules actually works, not following them creates a huge mess, doesn't get problems solved, makes everyone's job harder, and worst of all hurts the player community. CCP Dolan | Community Representative
Twitter: @CCPDolan
Gooby pls |
|
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
477
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 15:44:00 -
[788] - Quote
Twoso wrote:I am really tired of this sort of thing from Devs/ISD. Stop power tripping. Stop giving commands. Stop being like this. You guys spend more time moderating than solving basic game problems. You want to power trip? Go do something about the clusterfuck you've created with the war dec system.
Power tripping? Dev's ARE the game. That's not a power trip. That's their JOB. Stop treating Dev's like scum. Stop whining. Stop being disrespectful. You guys spend more time whining about moderating than even playing the game. Do you pay $15 a month to whine on a forum? Go learn to post respectfully before posting inflammatory remarks at the people who make the game. |
|
CCP Falcon
363
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 15:52:00 -
[789] - Quote
Twoso wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:Now. Stop twisting our words. Stop ignoring our instructions. Please direct all further discussions on our moderation methods to the thread I linked. I will delete all posts discussing that topic from this and all other threads as well. I am really tired of this sort of thing from Devs/ISD. Stop power tripping. Stop giving commands. Stop being like this. You guys spend more time moderating than solving basic game problems. You want to power trip? Go do something about the clusterfuck you've created with the war dec system.
CCP developers have their own specific departments to work in within the company.
Community Developers do not deal with game mechanics, we're here to work with and alongside the Community. Asking us to fix game mechanics is like asking a car mechanic to style your hair, or an airline pilot to cook you a 7 course meal.
We have our specific roles within the company.
I'm going to stress what CCP Dolan has said here. We value positive criticism to our moderation techniques, but it must be done through the proper channels, so that we can address it correctly.
For specific issues with ISD or Developers then file a petition under the correct category and we'll look into it.
For more general comments and queries we have a specific thread set up on the General Discussion forum for people to post in regarding moderation.
If you simply choose to rant on the forums about issues, then you're going to end up in breach of the Forum Rules.
This thread is also about two steps away from being locked permanently due to how badly discussion has degenerated into persecution of our volunteers by a select few individuals who fail to understand the rules and policies we have in place.
CCP Falcon -á-á||-á-áEVE Community Developer -á-á|| -á-áEVE Illuminati -á-á||-á-á@CCP_Falcon |
|
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
43
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 16:39:00 -
[790] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering.
Quote: If you guys have something to say about the ISDs, petition it like we have asked you to do countless times now
Which is it comment and hope it doesn't fall under someone's definition of berate or only say nice things here and petition bad things in secret?
If you don't want words twisted be very clear to cause no confusion.
Since I have the paid pros ears now:
Implement a very strict rule set for ISD moderators if they are going to remain. They could also be moved to a lower position as a high priority reporter to lessen the load on CCP guys.
Examples: "Trolling" is a word that could be used to define almost anything written. That should not be handled by amatures especially ones with an in-game interest in what's being discussed.
Zero tolenace for locking threads for no good reason should be the norm.
Deleting posts is not allowed only edits on obvious violations...not "trolling" but profanity, racism, etc... |
|
|
CCP Falcon
367
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 16:45:00 -
[791] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:CCP Navigator wrote: Finally, the Community team will be locking the myriad of threads on criticizing ISD. You can direct all comments to this thread only as this is the only one we will be following and answering.
Quote: If you guys have something to say about the ISDs, petition it like we have asked you to do countless times now
Which is it comment and hope it doesn't fall under someone's definition of berate or only say nice things here and petition bad things in secret? If you don't want words twisted be very clear to cause no confusion.
Since I have the paid pros ears now: Implement a very strict rule set for ISD moderators if they are going to remain. They could also be moved to a lower position as a high priority reporter to lessen the load on CCP guys. Examples: "Trolling" is a word that could be used to define almost anything written. That should not be handled by amatures especially ones with an in-game interest in what's being discussed. Zero tolenace for locking threads for no good reason should be the norm. Deleting posts is not allowed only edits on obvious violations...not "trolling" but profanity, racism, etc...
See my post above regarding clarification on where to post what.
CCP Falcon -á-á||-á-áEVE Community Developer -á-á|| -á-áEVE Illuminati -á-á||-á-á@CCP_Falcon |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 27 :: [one page] |