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Dietz0r Saraki
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi folks,
when i recently read the DevBlog about the Miningbarge overhaul and the new mining frigate i started to think about mining a fair bit of my freetime. Having skilled up two toons to mining myself and doing it a fair amount of time, either with friends or solo i figured out a few things that could enhance the expirienc of some miners (not everyone will be pleased as usual) or just make it a bit more of a real profession. I will list my ideas in the order that makes the most sense (alteast to me). Please be free to add or discuss my ideas here openly there may always be something that i have not thought off. And here we go.
At first a small glimps of how i see mining today:
The beste real life analogy for mining in eve i could think of was filling a wheelbarrow with a shoffle and then dumping the contents 2 houses along the street. It kind of feels like this at the moment. You dont realy get the feel of setting out to an asteroid field, slowly filling your cargohold with precious ores and then dumping a good hours or two of work to a nearby factory for reprocessing. It just too fast of a job to get that feeling. Some EVE Chronicles capture this feeling i speak of quite well. they can be found here and here I would like to get mining closer to this image.
#1 Deployment Time
To Achiev that the first obvious thing is the time you actually mine in a ship. (Not talking about getting "good" minerals and/or hauling the stuff to the station) You're flying a mining ship so you should be able to stay out and do your job a fair while before running out of free cargo. CCP already stated they will change the mining barges to a point where the Hulk will have the most throughput but the lowest cargo. I like that quiet a lot but i highly advise that even a Hulk should be able to operate solo for atleast a solid hour (more may be up to taste but an hour will be enough in my opinnion).
To achiev that there are 2 ways. Making the Ore Cargohold so big they can take the amount or cutting down the mining amount and the ore volume the same. If we were to decrease the mining amount and the ore volume by the factor 2(5) we could achiev times of about an hour (2,5 h maybe to much) for a ALL V hulk without fiddling with market prices or other stuff. (A positiv side effect of this idea could be that Ore itself has the highest mineral densitiy, though it would be the best way to transport minerals with the added drawback that you would need the proper installations at the location you're shipping too (eg: places without a perfect refinery, aka nullsec)
#2 Asteroid composition and the Survey Scanner
The next thing on the list is the "keep the ship busy until i scan something good" part of the feeling i'm aiming for. To get to that we remove the diffrent Oretype asteroids and add generic ones. (Visual effects may give good astroids away, eg: greenish for zydrine or metallic stuff for megacyte ore) These new asteroids will be made out of diffrent Ores and the only way you could see the composition is by using a survey scanner, which now is a targeted, low cycle time device and gives you the estimated (hello skills! ^^) composition and estimated (hello tech2 and skills again) Volume of the Asteroid you just scanned.
Lets play this Ideas thorugh so far.
You arrive at your favorite miningspot, instantly lock up a target and fire of your lazers. While they Cycle you scan your surroundings for an Asteroid with an unusual ore or a good composition. If you use and Tech1 Scanner and dont have the best skills you might get a reading like this:
Asteroid #21124 - 13000m-¦ 54% Veldspar 34% Scordite 12% Omber
if you scan the same Asteroid with full skills and a tech 2 scanner you'd get this:
Asteroid #21124 - 14520m-¦ 25% Veldspar, 18% Concentrated Veldspar, 11% Dense Veldspar 20% Scordite, 14% Condensed Scordite, 10% Omber , 2% Golden Omber
The Tech2 Scanner gives far more accurate readings and can differ in the ore types which a miner that pays attention can use to calculate the best roid to suck on.
So you find a roid with a nice composition and suck it dry. Meanwhile you scan for the next good candiate and stumble upon an asteroid that has a fairly uncommon ore for you sector, you take that next. And you do all that, checking prices, calculating ore compositions for profit while slowboating through an Asteroidfield and you actually have stuff to do instead of sitting there and reading a book while mining.
BUT if you choose to, you still could afk mine. You could warp in, fire your lasers and dont care about the composition you stuff your cargohold with. Which is perfectly fine. You will still get Ore and Minerals but it MAY be not as efficient as when you survey scan the asteroids and you might miss out on a vein of rarer ore.
This idea should be relativly easy to implement for CCP, because i strongly belive they already have these percentages as configurations somewhere in their backend and asteroids inerhertly have diffrent sizes so it should not be a big deal to have asteroids with diffrent oretypes and derivation of the percentages. Also a pro for this idea is, it wouldn't ad load to the server. The server doesnt care if he places 10000 veldspar or 5000veldspare and 5000 scordite every minute into your cargohold. Also the calculations to determine how much of every ore you get per cycle is simple math and doesnt need a costly algorithm.
[continued] |
Dietz0r Saraki
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
[continue]
#3 Building on this System.
To further give miners something to care about i thought about the recent change to the drone regions. We could use all these compounds and Alloys wich are already in the game to give miners something to think about without being able to calculate the direct profit. Imagin this, you just scanned an asteroid and it gives you this reading:
Asteroid #24124 - 24520m-¦ 15% Veldspar, 8% Dense Veldspar, 16% Scordite, 14% Condensed Scordite, 10% Omber , 4% Golden Omber 33% Alloys
You dont get to know what kind these alloys are and i would strongly advice that they change from cycle to cycle. So you could even get some morphite out of those compounds or other rare minerals. But you wouldn't know what you got unti the cycle of your lasers finished. (Rarer mineral alloys haveing a higher chance to be mined in lower security space obviously)
So. Thats it for me, i'm excited to hear if i sparked some imagination on that topic. Please feel free to discuss and don't mind some mistakes, english is not my native language.
Greetings Dietz0r Saraki |
Dietz0r Saraki
Panzerwaschanlage
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 05:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Didnt i even upset anyone with these ideas?!
I figured atleast the deployment time thing would ignite a discussion, but oh well. :) I'm fine with no critics :D |
Dede Kelmalu
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Personally i could care less about the ore types being visible i move in and clear out entire fields then move on most of the time however the biggest issue with mining isn't the process it's the ships. Eve mining ships for the isk they cost to make or buy are more in line with battleships and should have relevant defense taking out a 300m isk hulk or a 200m isk mack should require at least a similar investment not a 5m isk frig or destroyer at less then 15 seconds. There should be some level of risk vs reward but as it is mining anywhere is dangerous for relitively little reward and mining in high sec is worst of all as it can take a hulk 20+ hours of mining and more of hauling to pay for itself yet for 5 m isk you can fit up a frig or destroyer warp to a belt and make more then enough capping a hulk to pay for your ship. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
As the previous poster pointed out. To make mining worth while for anything but bots is to make the mining ships actually have a tank. Not the current 'you stare too hard and the ship explodes' mentality. It is rather sad that people that do want to make some ISK but have busy lifes are limited to: Hulk getting destroyed by a destroyer scenarios. It does limit ones motivation to mine.
Hell, I would like to afk mine once in a while when I am too busy in RL. But so far the knowledge of instantly wasting 200 mil on a ship that gets annihilated by a 5 mil ship is laughable at best.
Your overall ideas would improve the current mining AFTER the mining barge balance. |
admaril bluebeard
Zues Minning
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 02:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
also make those rough asteriods hav some rare as well |
McOboe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
141
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 02:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
I agree with FireT and Dede Kelmalu above. I wouldn't mind semi-AFK mining as well from time to time, while I chat it up with associates on EVE. The problem is that the Hulk is an expensive, juicy target, while the T1 mining barges can be taken out by even a poorly fitted destroyer. The mining ship changes for this winter will solve a great deal of my mining woes. |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
710
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 03:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
See my thread in my sig. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
Dietz0r Saraki
Panzerwaschanlage
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 13:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:See my thread in my sig.
I realy like your idea with the "useless stone roids" that could add greatly to my composition idea. :) Having Asteroids with diffrent levels of "useless rock" would be cool. :) But you'd have to factor that percentage in, in order to not hurt the common miners throughput.
and to the others.
I'm aware that Barges are to easy to kill at the moment, but i stated that i want to build upon the barge overhaul, so i didnt put an emphasis on that, i just suggested some further improvments and i'm glad that they're considered a nice addition once the barges are "fixed"
Greetings |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 15:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
your idea about giving the hulk a 100k+m3 ore bay prompted me to stop reading as the rest of the post would more than likely be equally stupid.
tl;dr no. |
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Dietz0r Saraki
Panzerwaschanlage
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 19:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:your idea about giving the hulk a 100k+m3 ore bay prompted me to stop reading as the rest of the post would more than likely be equally stupid.
tl;dr no.
bad reading comprehension, hmm? i didnt suggest that. ;) having this large of an ore bay could become a sirious problem when you look at the other logistic ships, so i approached the problem from an diffrent angle, but thanks for trying anyway. :) |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
101
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 11:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dietz0r Saraki wrote:Dave stark wrote:your idea about giving the hulk a 100k+m3 ore bay prompted me to stop reading as the rest of the post would more than likely be equally stupid.
tl;dr no. bad reading comprehension, hmm? i didnt suggest that. ;) having this large of an ore bay could become a sirious problem when you look at the other logistic ships, so i approached the problem from an diffrent angle, but thanks for trying anyway. :)
"I like that quiet a lot but i highly advise that even a Hulk should be able to operate solo for atleast a solid hour"
to do that the ore bay would need to be almost 100km3.
i can pull in like 80km3 in an hour without maxed skills, without drones, without implants, etc.
so yes, you were suggesting a 100k m3 ore bay. if you don't even understand what you're suggesting.... |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3983
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 12:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
I heard mining! Would need to add this to the survey scanner interface though - Linkage
/c
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Dietz0r Saraki
Panzerwaschanlage
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 14:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dave stark wrote: "I like that quiet a lot but i highly advise that even a Hulk should be able to operate solo for atleast a solid hour"
to do that the ore bay would need to be almost 100km3.
i can pull in like 80km3 in an hour without maxed skills, without drones, without implants, etc.
so yes, you were suggesting a 100k m3 ore bay. if you don't even understand what you're suggesting....
mfw u didnt even read :P lol
Chribba wrote: I heard mining! Would need to add this to the survey scanner interface though - Linkage
/c
Neat overview change. :)
also: chribba aproves ... omg omg omg omg omg *faints* |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
101
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 16:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dietz0r Saraki wrote:Dave stark wrote: "I like that quiet a lot but i highly advise that even a Hulk should be able to operate solo for atleast a solid hour"
to do that the ore bay would need to be almost 100km3.
i can pull in like 80km3 in an hour without maxed skills, without drones, without implants, etc.
so yes, you were suggesting a 100k m3 ore bay. if you don't even understand what you're suggesting....
mfw u didnt even read :P lol Chribba wrote: I heard mining! Would need to add this to the survey scanner interface though - Linkage
/c
Neat overview change. :) also: chribba aproves ... omg omg omg omg omg *faints*
of course i didn't, it started with an awful idea.
|
Dietz0r Saraki
Panzerwaschanlage
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 19:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
of course i didn't, it started with an awful idea.
i will just lay back and watch until you realize you made an ass of yourself, okay? ;) try thinking outside the box though and you might find the solution i found for that 100k m-¦ ore bay problem (wich i didnt suggest, realy^^) or you might find a better one in which case i would love you to state it here. :) |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 12:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
i do not like the idea of a hulk beeing able to mine on its own for a longer period than 2 cycles either. it would make the proposed mining barge changes useless. i like the idea of the max yield ship to be a team player and relying on the support of orca and co. take the new retriever for solo mining.
but
the rest is awesome: variable composition, higher grade stuff like alloys. love it. please forward it directly to ccp?
and just a thought: since ring mining was mentioned on fan fest and ccp soundwave told us he wants to put moon goo inside, how about moving all mining (ice, gas, ore, elements (moon goo) into those rings and make them one system surrounding a planet? obviously gas giants would have more and bigger rings, while smaller planets would have one, if any.
- make the belt warp-ins as they are now warp in points in the big planetary belt. but since the ring is literally thousands of kilometers long (depending on the planet) it would make sence to take fast crafts to fly along the ring into new grids, looking for sweet spots and gankers would make the effort to scan down the ships (still rather easy...). people who do not want to make the survey can mine at the warp-ins as it is now.
-composition of the rings could depent on the planet they are surounding, maybe have two, three rings, getting more dense with decreasing distance to planet (outer ring - gas, inner ring - ore); planet on the edge of the system: has ice rings composition of rings and roids is coupled to sec status at it is now.
and
make mobile ALL the things. normal ore and ice could moce with speeds like 0-20 m/s so mining fleets with orca and hulk can keep up easily but some planing of course is needed, while smaller ore roids and more precious things could move faster. mining frig and all. over all creating a more dynamic environment. |
Dietz0r Saraki
Panzerwaschanlage
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 15:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:i do not like the idea of a hulk beeing able to mine on its own for a longer period than 2 cycles either. it would make the proposed mining barge changes useless. i like the idea of the max yield ship to be a team player and relying on the support of orca and co. take the new retriever for solo mining.
it's up to taste i guess, but it would be completly fine by me if i had to sacrifice some yield to get to stay out for an hour or so. (ie hulk == yield king, retriever can stay out for a long time) fair enough trade off.
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: but
the rest is awesome: variable composition, higher grade stuff like alloys. love it. please forward it directly to ccp?
and just a thought: since ring mining was mentioned on fan fest and ccp soundwave told us he wants to put moon goo inside, how about moving all mining (ice, gas, ore, elements (moon goo) into those rings and make them one system surrounding a planet? obviously gas giants would have more and bigger rings, while smaller planets would have one, if any.
- make the belt warp-ins as they are now warp in points in the big planetary belt. but since the ring is literally thousands of kilometers long (depending on the planet) it would make sence to take fast crafts to fly along the ring into new grids, looking for sweet spots and gankers would make the effort to scan down the ships (still rather easy...). people who do not want to make the survey can mine at the warp-ins as it is now.
-composition of the rings could depent on the planet they are surounding, maybe have two, three rings, getting more dense with decreasing distance to planet (outer ring - gas, inner ring - ore); planet on the edge of the system: has ice rings composition of rings and roids is coupled to sec status at it is now.
and
make mobile ALL the things. normal ore and ice could moce with speeds like 0-20 m/s so mining fleets with orca and hulk can keep up easily but some planing of course is needed, while smaller ore roids and more precious things could move faster. mining frig and all. over all creating a more dynamic environment.
I like that ring mining and "moving" asteroids quite a lot. xD imagine you'd have to chase an arkonor roid which is just barely slower than you are. :D hilarity ensues
and thanks for the praise =) |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 08:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
what do you think are our chances to get something like the proposed stuff implemented? |
Dietz0r Saraki
Panzerwaschanlage
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 04:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
depends on what CCP already has planned for mining, they said they wanted to do ring mining and i doubt they will just go and put the system they have now in rings.
It sounds more like a complete rebuild that could come with some nice changes, maybe even some we didn't think about until now. but there's no way to be sure other than a dev stumbling here and giving a "been there, done that" posting. Then i guess there are more popular thread about mining out there which would get a reply first (but i wouldn't mind one in here .. you read that ccp? xD )
Buest chances i'll see for the future are 50/50 at the moment. The hope they'll do it from scratch with ring mining is still there.
Greeting Dietz0r |
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