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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2010.02.13 09:09:00 -
[1]
There are plenty of other posts about how to 'fix' FW but I thought I'd add my own analysis and ideas to the mix...
1) What is FW for?
I believe that FW is intended to encourage small scale PvP and to provide a framework for those players interested in role playing within the eve universe.
The ideas I offer are always intended to improve one or other of these aspects.
2) What are the problems with FW?
A - Not enough reward. FW is essentially an isk sink. This is not a problem in itself but is an issue for newer players looking to get straight into the action. Sure, they can fly T1 fit, insured frigates but they'll have trouble doing much solo and when they inevitably want a bigger and better ship/guns, they'll need to go mission running or something to raise the cash. (Note: Even FW missions take people away from PvP and as arole playing framework they offer little more than normal missions so I don't consider them a good solution)
B - Plex system is broken. Pexing provides almost no benefit. Ships optimised for running plexes are usually no use for PvP. Imabalance between NPcs between races. NPCs provide too much advantage in 1v1 and smaller enagements. Alts with high standings to the defenders running plexes in backwater systems. The list goes on... The bottom line is, the current plexing mechanics are not great at promoting conflict or enhancing role-playing.
3) What are the solutions?
A - There are two core activities in FW - plexing and PvP. These should both give better rewards. However, they should not be exploitable.
B - Plexing needs to be completely revamped so that it rewards the particpents more and drives conflict between players.
i - Remove NPCs from plexes. ii - Add structures to plexes. These would NOT need to be destroyed to capture the plex but would drop randomised lot. Possible chance of some appropriate tasty faction stuff. iii - When a plex starts to be capped, display a message in the oposing militia channel something like '<race> facilities are under attack in <system>'. Also have a list in the militia office of offensive and defensive plexes that are currently being taken by the opposing side. iv - When a plex is captured, award LPs equivalent to all the opposing ships that have died in there. i.e. effectively doubling LP reward for killing players but only in plexes and only if you actually capture the plex. v - remove FW missions.
In this way, NPCs are removed from the equation and players themselves become the defenders. 'silent' plex running becomes impossible, this can only serve to increase conflict.
I believe that these changes would really drive PvP within FW. They would also give a (little) more RP flavour to plexing and FW itself. --------------------------------------
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The Yzzerman
Royal Order of Security Specialists
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Posted - 2010.02.13 10:04:00 -
[2]
I agree more awards to plexers and more lps to the pvpers.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.13 11:02:00 -
[3]
First off, get thread moved to Feature/Ideas forum where it belongs.
- Adding a warning will only act as spam and does absolutely nothing to enhance gameplay, pvp or anything else for that matter. The frig will just move to next plex/system when challenged, same as now. - Removing NPCs will only further encourage the semi-AFK plexing alt frigs. - Your post has no mention of how to mitigate the blobbing that has become standard fare. - If FW is an ISK sink for you, then removing missions is counter productive. Making them integral to the VP accumulation and allowing a hostile to disrupt them (ie. force a "fail" = standings hit) would make them lucrative PvP magnets.
Read these threads if you are interested in knowing what was happening in the FW corner of the sandbox: FW: My Vision (or how I learned to love mayhem) The Definitive FW Thread
Numerous suggestions on top of those in Assembly Hall and F/I but those I had bookmarked so easier.
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olzi
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.02.13 11:04:00 -
[4]
The problems and even needed bugfixes of FW are well known, what is lacking is CCP's commitment to do something about those things.
CCP's view of FW seems to be '0.0-lite', and so we're stuck with things like timers not stopping when running down to zero, or solar system occupancy without any meaningful rewards.
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2010.02.13 14:09:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Adding a warning will only act as spam and does absolutely nothing to enhance gameplay, pvp or anything else for that matter. The frig will just move to next plex/system when challenged, same as now.
And when they move to a different plex, another warning will appear in opposing militia chat. It's hardly spam. It's tactical information. The point of the warning is that 'silent' plexing becomes non-viable.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Removing NPCs will only further encourage the semi-AFK plexing alt frigs.
Not with the warnings in place. With the warnings, it is that actual players will become the defenders. Lets face it the NPCs do almost nothing to discourage semi-afk plexing as it stands.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Your post has no mention of how to mitigate the blobbing that has become standard fare.
No, I'm not really worried about blobbing since it's almost never an issue for me. If there is an enemy blob then join a fleet to take it on or avoid it. Certainly some people seem to have a problem with the other side bringing more pilots but I can't see that it's really an issue that needs tackling through game mechanics.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida If FW is an ISK sink for you, then removing missions is counter productive. Making them integral to the VP accumulation and allowing a hostile to disrupt them (ie. force a "fail" = standings hit) would make them lucrative PvP magnets.
I think you must have missunderstood something somewhere. The idea is to improve the payoff from plexing and PvP encounters to the point where missions are no longer needed. CCP added them to try and give rewards to FW players but instead they just remove people from the PvP side of things. By incentivising plexing and PvP, you remove the need for missions to be there in the first place.
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2010.02.13 14:49:00 -
[6]
Biggest problems I've experienced in FW are:
1. spies (and no mechanic to label or get confirmed spies kicked from miltia etc)
2. standings - 3 months ago I was at 9.1 Gallente faction standing and a respectable -2 or so Caldari (by derived standing). Due to remote repping in a fleet last night (where I think someone shot a miltia spy) and a pod kill myself of a spy I'm now at -1.6 Gallente faction standing.
3. Lack of incentive to "win" systems - There's no real reason to strive for Occupancy currently other than bragging rights.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.13 16:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ambo And when they move to a different plex, another warning will appear in opposing militia chat. It's hardly spam. It's tactical information. The point of the warning is that 'silent' plexing becomes non-viable.
You can not seriously be that naive. Imagine just five people starting plexes all over the place while 1-2 actual plexers do their thing .. the feedback will drown out everything. Is only a good idea if the entire spawn mechanic and plex system is fundamentally changed. The fact that a notification goes out still allows for the "silent" captures, defensive forces still have to travel, re-ship etc. Changes nothing as I said.
Originally by: Ambo Not with the warnings in place. With the warnings, it is that actual players will become the defenders. Lets face it the NPCs do almost nothing to discourage semi-afk plexing as it stands.
Because there is such an insane disparity between them and they are do riddled with bugs. Removing them is treating a symptom not a disease.
Originally by: Ambo No, I'm not really worried about blobbing since it's almost never an issue for me. If there is an enemy blob then join a fleet to take it on or avoid it. Certainly some people seem to have a problem with the other side bringing more pilots but I can't see that it's really an issue that needs tackling through game mechanics.
So to you blobs have earned the right to win simply because they can field higher numbers? Makes for crappy game-play in null-sec, even crappier in Empire. The differences in militia sizes are huge .. Caldari have 25% more signed on than Gallente and Minmatar have a whopping 33% more than Amarr. Without an artificial mechanism one might as well just change occupancy in all systems to whichever side has the numbers .. it is just a matter of time at any rate.
Originally by: Ambo I think you must have missunderstood something somewhere. The idea is to improve the payoff from plexing and PvP encounters to the point where missions are no longer needed. CCP added them to try and give rewards to FW players but instead they just remove people from the PvP side of things. By incentivising plexing and PvP, you remove the need for missions to be there in the first place.
Giving rewards for something that is done AFK? Never going to happen. Removing NPCs and massive increase of rewards plus the ability to spam the frack out of enemy militia feedback tool = Print ISK button.
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Kijo Rikki
Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees
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Posted - 2010.02.13 16:11:00 -
[8]
I happen to think both plexing and FW mission running (especially FW mission running) promotes pvp. I always fit my ships with some form of tackle, even my plexers, and I'd like to think most people do that so these ships are not pvp-unworthy.
FW missions force you to roam, preferably in small gangs but its doable with just two people but you are essentially roaming and hot dog if the enemy spots you they often give chase. You can't tell me theres not pvp there. As for that being a time sink? You realize how quickly you gain LP through missioning and that you use your LP to buy nice ships for practically nothing and turn around and sell said ships for a cool 30 mil or something like that and to be honest, its better money vs time spent comparing level 4 high sec missions with loot/salvage. and less hassle too.
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Hellfury Resurrected
Incura
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Posted - 2010.02.13 17:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ambo FW missions offer little more than normal missions
You're doing it wrong. -------------------------------------------
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Feyona
Locus Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.13 20:59:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Feyona on 13/02/2010 20:59:11 FW missions are great for isk making. A few hundred mil isk from a couple hours work? Yes thanks. I'm sorry if you think that you should actually make money from PvP, but that's sorta wrong...
Where else in the game do you consistently make money from PvP besides pirating, unless you are very top end? (In which case you'll be okay in FW too, really.) Yeah, you make money BEING in 0.0 from ratting and whatnot but not from fighting there for the most part. And lots of people that live out there have mission running alts and stuff anyway.
Since they've fixed the lag, FW has actually been pretty nice. Good fights to be had with small numbers, where a 'blob' is 30 people? Won't find this very many other places in EVE.
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2010.02.14 17:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hellfury Resurrected
Originally by: Ambo FW missions offer little more than normal missions
You're doing it wrong.
Actually, I've never done one. I stopped missioning years ago. I know they offer more than normal missions in terms of isk per hour... that's not what I'm talking about here though.
Originally by: Feyona
FW missions are great for isk making. A few hundred mil isk from a couple hours work? Yes thanks. I'm sorry if you think that you should actually make money from PvP, but that's sorta wrong...
Why should it be wrong? The whole point of FW is to encourage PvP. If CCP are not going to reward players for plexing or PvP then those players that need to will just have to earn isk elsewhere. (e.g. FW missions) That takes them away from the whole point of FW: PvP.
Hirana Yoshida, I think you're just wrong in general... I don't think either of us are going to convince the other of our point of view here so I'll just agree to disagree.
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