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xythyl
Gallente Scientia Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.14 10:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: xythyl on 14/02/2010 10:35:19 Than
1. Taking the time to Excel Spreadhseet my arse off to find a good item to trade at volume with a generous margin.
2. Taking the time hauling it to the station I need it at.
3. Whilst putting the order up I check my old ones to find... THAT SOMEONE HAS UNDERCUT THE WHOLE MARKET ORDER.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-
SO MUCH RAGE.
But honestly, who does this benefit? As you can see, the desperate / dumb traders follow suit and adjust their orders to undercut the initial uber-under-cutter. It's like a special-Olympics version of dominoes.
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Melleia
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Posted - 2010.02.14 10:35:00 -
[2]
Originally by: xythyl But honestly, who does this benefit?
You. Buy all the stock that is undercutting "normal" prices and relist it at "normal" prices. Fast way to make some profit.
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xythyl
Gallente Scientia Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.14 10:37:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Melleia
Originally by: xythyl But honestly, who does this benefit?
You. Buy all the stock that is undercutting "normal" prices and relist it at "normal" prices. Fast way to make some profit.
~627m spent on a market recovery? If someone has the balls to manipulate it, then they can undercut again I presume.
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Ran Khanon
Amarr Vengeance Innovations
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Posted - 2010.02.14 10:48:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Ran Khanon on 14/02/2010 10:49:07
Originally by: xythyl
Originally by: Melleia
Originally by: xythyl But honestly, who does this benefit?
You. Buy all the stock that is undercutting "normal" prices and relist it at "normal" prices. Fast way to make some profit.
~627m spent on a market recovery? If someone has the balls to manipulate it, then they can undercut again I presume.
Probably :)
Whoever said that trading = carebearing should try for himself. Let the market wars commence!
On a side note: A friend of mine used to trade Khumaaks back in 2003/2004 and he was annoyed by people arriving with their load just a second before him and filling out the fat buying orders or undercutting his selling orders (not sure what the details where) ... so he found out the main traderoute went through a few lowsec systems and decided to cull the competition somewhat while lining his own wallet. Much profit was made. Support Lana's new bounty system. |
Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2010.02.14 10:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Cista2 on 14/02/2010 10:51:03
Originally by: xythyl ~627m spent on a market recovery? If someone has the balls to manipulate it, then they can undercut again I presume.
Yes, it is a matter of having greater balls than him.
Also btw, when in Heimatar you cannot ignore the other semi-hubs with large orders (like the one in Eystur) - buyers will just go there. -----------------------
Phoenix Mutual Fund / MD stock market / Audits 001 |
Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.02.14 11:01:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 14/02/2010 11:02:04
Originally by: xythyl But honestly, who does this benefit? As you can see, the desperate / dumb traders follow suit and adjust their orders to undercut the initial uber-under-cutter.
Sometimes you want a fast turnaround and hope to be bought out.
Other times you hope you won't be bought out and intend to bring down prices to buy and relist at some later point. (when enough volume is below the price tag you have in mind, cancel your own large sell order und buy up all volume below the mark; if the lemmings are fast you won't have sold too much of your items at a low price; relist bought up volume at "normal" price)
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ITSAssassin
Royal Manufacturing and Blueprint Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.02.14 11:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 14/02/2010 11:02:04
Originally by: xythyl But honestly, who does this benefit? As you can see, the desperate / dumb traders follow suit and adjust their orders to undercut the initial uber-under-cutter.
Sometimes you want a fast turnaround and hope to be bought out.
Other times you hope you won't be bought out and intend to bring down prices to buy and relist at some later point. (when enough volume is below the price tag you have in mind, cancel your own large sell order und buy up all volume below the mark; if the lemmings are fast you won't have sold too much of your items at a low price; relist bought up volume at "normal" price)
All of these posts are valid points. Trading=Finding ways to still make a profit REGARDLESS of what other people do against you. The best or most creative person seems to win at the end, so if you think you can compete and win, then find a way. Where there's a will there's a way
ITSAssassin Royal M&B Enterprises CEO
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La faraona
Alhambra Consulting
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Posted - 2010.02.14 11:50:00 -
[8]
The market, source of infinite ragequits.
Some possibilities:
- Casual player (not a trader) trying to get a quick sale. - Noob trader who is not aware of lemmings psychology. - Advanced trader manipulating to buy cheap stuff then resell. - Any of the above, who did it for the lulz (market grief).
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Rykker Bow
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Posted - 2010.02.14 13:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: xythyl
~627m spent on a market recovery? If someone has the balls to manipulate it, then they can undercut again I presume.
If the stock moves, yes. A good trader will make money off of other traders as well.
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Taram Caldar
Blackwater USA Inc. Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.02.14 17:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: xythyl
Originally by: Melleia
Originally by: xythyl But honestly, who does this benefit?
You. Buy all the stock that is undercutting "normal" prices and relist it at "normal" prices. Fast way to make some profit.
~627m spent on a market recovery? If someone has the balls to manipulate it, then they can undercut again I presume.
If you're that worried about it:
1) Buy the super undercut price 2) Take to another market hub (where you can probably relist even higher than here. 3) Profit
Think outside the box
Market Alerts Mailing List
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Alater Caedo
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Posted - 2010.02.14 18:49:00 -
[11]
MMmmMmmm... Market pvp tears.. Taste.. So good..
:)
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Wieting Foyu
Gallente Foyu Trading World
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Posted - 2010.02.14 20:49:00 -
[12]
Funny you didn't show the buy orders. Maybe that individual just got his huge buy order filled. If you just bought a huge amount somewhere else in hopes to sell here then it was obviously already overpriced and someone decided to put the median price. Either way I can guarantee that person is making a profit. If you aren't then who really is the "dumb trader".
As its been said... If the price is that low buy out and relist. If you can't handle that then GTFO of my market.
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La faraona
Alhambra Consulting
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Posted - 2010.02.14 22:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Wieting Foyu Funny you didn't show the buy orders. Maybe that individual just got his huge buy order filled. If you just bought a huge amount somewhere else in hopes to sell here then it was obviously already overpriced and someone decided to put the median price. Either way I can guarantee that person is making a profit. If you aren't then who really is the "dumb trader".
As its been said... If the price is that low buy out and relist. If you can't handle that then GTFO of my market.
The undercutter is the dumb, as everybody knows lemmings will follow anyway.
Notice how the undercutting order has a round number, lmao, he has not sold a single unit and everybody loses now.
Market follows the same rules as the classic prisoner game, if you act dumb both you lose.
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Capitalist Swineherder
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Posted - 2010.02.14 22:33:00 -
[14]
Its probably a valid tactic. Most traders are like you out there looking for the sweet deal. If you let margins on what you're trading in balloon too high you may find yourself awash in rabid .01 isk fiends. But if you instead constrain the margins to something profitable but not eye popping the lemming fair weather traders will pass right on buy that item and bug somebody else.
Often times the extra volume you get from offering a "good price" and keeping other traders from noticing a market make up for the loss of income on each individual item. I'll take a 5 - 10% margin with little competition versus a 100%+ margin that requires constant updates to move product. Plus its loads of fun if you have a cheap supply to let those margins balloon from time to time, watch the lemmings come rushing in with their product from Jita sell orders hoping to score a quick profit and then crushing the margin forcing them to sell at a loss or pack up and move out. Sometimes I hear they'll even come to the forums to complain.
Oh wait...
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Galactic Tycoon
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Posted - 2010.02.14 22:40:00 -
[15]
I often buy the whole Jita collection of one good and relist it much higher.
I did this today and bumped the price from 5m to 8.5m and I made 250m but could have made 1.2b. Some runt decided to put 10 items on at 5m and lose the difference of 3m per unit x 10 = 30m.
Personally I don't buy the arguement of oh he just wants a fast sale. Everything in Jita, especially items in the low millions will sell very quickly. Sometimes I sell 40 megathrons in one go so that doesnt add up as an arguement to me. It's just thick traders no understand how to bleed the market not just for themselves but for all traders.
I gave people a massive opportinity to make billions tonight and all those people who didn't use their head blew it.
Now i have so much ISK that when I see some clown cutting the prices down by millions and listing 50+ items himself, I just undercut him by further millions to serve the same medicine.
If you can't manipulate the market properly you get what you serve.
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xythyl
Gallente Scientia Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.15 06:57:00 -
[16]
THE BASTARD STRIKES AGAIN
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Wieting Foyu
Gallente Foyu Trading World
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Posted - 2010.02.15 07:31:00 -
[17]
looks like he is going by the regional low. so buy up what's in lust and eyst as well.
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xythyl
Gallente Scientia Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.15 07:58:00 -
[18]
Edited by: xythyl on 15/02/2010 07:57:46
Originally by: Wieting Foyu looks like he is going by the regional low. so buy up what's in lust and eyst as well.
Spending that much on _______ isn't on my agenda right now.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.15 08:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: xythyl THE BASTARD STRIKES AGAIN
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2889/11283451.png
so what do all the big red squiggles mean?
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xythyl
Gallente Scientia Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.15 08:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: xythyl THE BASTARD STRIKES AGAIN
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2889/11283451.png
so what do all the big red squiggles mean?
Dey pwetty decowashunz.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.15 08:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: xythyl
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: xythyl THE BASTARD STRIKES AGAIN
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2889/11283451.png
so what do all the big red squiggles mean?
Dey pwetty decowashunz.
well then, nom nom nom nom nom nom nom!
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Amrumm
Rhetorical Devices
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Posted - 2010.02.15 10:01:00 -
[22]
I'm guessing that is faction ammo? Probably a trader/hauler who is happy to make a quick buck at Jita price level? Buy him out or wait him out. In the meantime, please keep us updated so we can continue laughing at your tears.
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2010.02.15 12:05:00 -
[23]
either buy him out, and continue to sink money into it...or, undercut him, sell your stuff and trade something else _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.02.15 12:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: xythyl ...find a good item to trade at volume with a generous margin.
This was where you went wrong. Volume/margin/highsec - choose any 2. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
skurv
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Posted - 2010.02.15 14:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro This was where you went wrong. Volume/margin/highsec - choose any 2.
quoted for truth....
Stop complaining because people don't play the same way as you. if you're not my friend (ie i personally know you either in game or IRL, and i actually like you), you're the competition.
any isk someone spends on your goods are goods they're not buying from me and as such you won't get much help with your emo rage cries.
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.02.15 18:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: xythyl Edited by: xythyl on 14/02/2010 10:35:19 Than
1. Taking the time to Excel Spreadhseet my arse off to find a good item to trade at volume with a generous margin.
2. Taking the time hauling it to the station I need it at.
3. Whilst putting the order up I check my old ones to find... THAT SOMEONE HAS UNDERCUT THE WHOLE MARKET ORDER.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-
SO MUCH RAGE.
But honestly, who does this benefit? As you can see, the desperate / dumb traders follow suit and adjust their orders to undercut the initial uber-under-cutter. It's like a special-Olympics version of dominoes.
This happened to me yesterday and I bought out the entire market and relisted for what it was going for prior to the madness. Making a killing off of it too since the undercut was 30% below value for the item and just like your situation the whole world followed in turn.
Most of those dumb/desperate traders are actually bots that don't care what the sell price is listed as so long as they are the lowest price. If you know they are bots you can seriously have fun at their expense some times.
When I bought out that market 2 out of every 3 sellers was a bot. Do the math.
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2010.02.15 20:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Cista2 Edited by: Cista2 on 14/02/2010 10:51:03
Originally by: xythyl ~627m spent on a market recovery? If someone has the balls to manipulate it, then they can undercut again I presume.
Yes, it is a matter of having greater balls than him.
Also btw, when in Heimatar you cannot ignore the other semi-hubs with large orders (like the one in Eystur) - buyers will just go there.
actually you can often ignore them, hardly anyone flies even 1 jump to even save 5 mill from my experience, i can increase an items price by 3x and i'll still sell 95% of the usual volume with items at normal price within 1-4 jumps. -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
nether void
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.02.15 20:52:00 -
[28]
Hehe. The market. Almost as bad as the roulette wheel. =D Sorry to hear about your woes, dude. Chin up and try again!
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.02.15 23:28:00 -
[29]
Seems like every few weeks, someone posts one of these "why don't you just 0.01 me???" threads.
When is it rational?
1. High Volume + Low Profits > Low Volume + High Profits
Factors that influence? 1. No interest/time for 0.01 ISK games (which reinforces low volumes if you *do* play the 0.01 ISK game). 2. Other players who, unwilling to compete for low margins, will simply move their money somewhere else (which helps prop volumes).
No need to resort to "lulz" as a justification. Sometimes you have to kill the profit (margin) to make the profit (gross).
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Stevea
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Posted - 2010.02.16 07:14:00 -
[30]
Oh good effing lord. I cant even believe that i have to reply to this.
Yeah, i undercut you by almost 1k. This was the evemail you sent me, in quite a cute fit of rage.
Quote: You're selling Fullerides in Moon 8 Brutor Tribe in Rens for 1884.00ISK.
The second lowest sell order in this trade hub is 2891.96ISK.
You're:
a) Losing profit b) Making everyone, not just yourself, poorer
Jesus H Christ. Youre an idiot.
For the record, and to start things off, everyone is not getting poorer. The average wealth isnt going up or down by my actions, as whatever i lose is gained by whoever buys my supposedly underpriced good.
-Now first of all, i just barely undercut almost 2m units 4/5 jumps away. I expect the bulk buyer to go those 4/5 jumps. As im selling in small quantity, that shouldnt be an issue, but i wanted to chase down those odds one way or another. I need quick turnover. -Buy orders were at 1400, indicating that the huge spike in prices wasnt a true shift in prices, and rather a temporary, possibly artificial, price spike. -Selling volume confirms the above. Before the spike, fullerides traded around 4m volume at around 1200. After the price spike, volume shot to 200k and prices neared 2000. -Jita prices were at 1400. Again, this indicates 2800 rens prices are unrealistic and going to crash at least 1k. -If i posted for 2.8k, like you so kindly whined xyth, and prices crashed below 1890 by the next morning before my fullerides sold, i would lose out. I fully expected this to happen at the volume that was being traded.
TL;DR: Im turning a heft profit the way im running buisness, and i have no reason to believe that you know jack ****. If you want to sink time and isk into market fluctuations, then dont whine when it curves back down. Your tears affect my bottom line not at all. Do they help yours?
EDIT: I guess they dont help yours either. The only time fullerides sold above 2k, they only sold 58k units, compared to usual trading upwards of 4m. So, no, i would have gained nothing by selling where you were.
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