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Alice Silversong	Posted - 2010.02.19 05:26:00 - [1] Can anyone explain WTF is with these 2 mods? Large Shield Extender II MID SLOT +2625 Shield +25 Signature Radius 1600MM Reinforced Steel Plates II LOW SLOT +4200 Armor +3750000 Mass It looks to me shield tankers get the shaft when it comes to pvp. Armor tankers get more EHP and can fit lots of EWAR compared to their shield counterparts. Not to mention the rigs that go along with those. Shield tankers have to suffer massive sig radius increase for less EHP (Yay my Cruiser has the Sig of BS!) while Armor tankers only have to suffer from less speed (omg click ur AB/MWD!) Can someone explain how the heck this is "balanced"?
Admiral Pelleon White Shadow Imperium	Posted - 2010.02.19 05:27:00 - [2] Perhaps you don't know what a cruiser with a 1600 feels like to fly. ________ Real men fly Amarr.
Last Wolf Rage For Order	Posted - 2010.02.19 05:50:00 - [3] 46 cpu + 132pg (at skill level 4) is A LOT easier to fit than 38 cpu and 500 grid. (not sure if those are the accurate numbers, pulled'em from memory.) Also, it regains hp, armor does not. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.02.19 05:51:00 - [4] Look at fitting requirements also. LSE is easy to fit, and no penalties to speed. IE. good for nano ships, or straight up max gank/glass cannon fits. See shield gank brutix,cane all nano fast ships, vaga, ishtar, stabber.
Shadowy Assistant	Posted - 2010.02.19 05:53:00 - [5] If shield tankers get a X-L Shield Extender, I demand armor tankers get an active omni hardener.
Akuma Tsukai Amarr	Posted - 2010.02.19 06:04:00 - [6] Edited by: Akuma Tsukai on 19/02/2010 06:04:18 i demand it right now, its one of the reasons active armor tank sucks even more it should ---- Drones eat everything. Trust me.
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20	Posted - 2010.02.19 07:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Akuma Tsukai Edited by: Akuma Tsukai on 19/02/2010 06:04:18 i demand it right now, its one of the reasons active armor tank sucks even more it should Active armor tank sucks? lmao -for PVE, active armor tank is just fine, same as any other tank (remember kids, you only need 'enough' tank for your mission, no EFT-peen please) -for PVP, active armor tank is already mandatory in a lot of fights. Or you think remote repping is a 'passive' endeavor? -for most non-RR pvp, buffer is the way to go anyway, and if you fit a plate or an extender depends on the ship your in and on the way you wish to fly it. _______________________________________________
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.19 07:30:00 - [8] I used to think this way but more and more I am seeing it as Balanced-ish I think LSE 2`s need a cool 3k HP or 1/3rd less for the Regen factor, but guys please don`t use the cruiser 1600 plate thing since we cant fit a decent non lol fit on our cruisers with LSE`s. But with the Weight to Shield size issue I think its a wash, Slow=EZ target Hugesig radius=EZ target. But where armor guys get the huge advantage is RR it is just rediculous how much ezer fitting it is for Armor than shields and because of this Shields aren`t viable for big fleets. Not anything bigger than 15 on 15 with BS`s IMO. So basically its fair but in large fleets its not at all and we all know it. Hell it costs barely any more to use RR than local tank. The regen factor also doesnt play a big role in PVP as much as it used to because of buffer tanks and the HUge amounts of Blob DPS output these days. In other words ships dont get alot of time to regen....It may matter solo but then as a rule armor ships have more buffer which means longer time also. I think a bigger tragedy is Caldari ships and there weak ass power grids Night Hawk almost half the grid as the sleip and basically they share a very similiar slot and fit with the sleip able to fit a xl booster also most our cruisers are garbage compared to others like Ruppy and Rax...Oh yeah and hybrids need a look at also. TL;DR There are bigger probs like -Rockets and gimped Af [Hawk] -Cald ship power grids [Night Hawk ETC] -RR totally favoring armor in every way If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Slade Hoo Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.02.19 07:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Kail Storm -RR totally favoring armor in every way ever heard of shield transporters? ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum!
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20	Posted - 2010.02.19 07:38:00 - [10] Originally by: Kail Storm we cant fit a decent non lol fit on our cruisers with LSE`s. Fitting a 1600mm plate is a LOT harder than fitting an LSE, and both can be done. In 'non-lol' fits. In fact, fitting a MSE is strictly for frigates/destroyers, in my opinion. _______________________________________________

Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.19 07:40:00 - [11] Edited by: Kail Storm on 19/02/2010 07:41:19 Originally by: Slade Hoo Originally by: Kail Storm -RR totally favoring armor in every way ever heard of shield transporters? Lol have you looked at the Grid/Cpu reqs its night and day Esp since we are low on grid as it is... If they were equal than all the good fleets would be mixed...LOl they arent at all its strictly Armor. And panderas please show me these NOn lol fits of yours, especially the Rax or Vexxor 1600mm vs the Cara LSE. If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.19 07:44:00 - [12] Cara fits LSE so much easier than thorax fits 1600mm it isnt even funny.
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:04:00 - [13] Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE. I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax. Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor? If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Kail Storm And panderas please show me these NOn lol fits of yours, especially the Rax or Vexxor 1600mm vs the Cara LSE. Pft caracal. Even put 2 on it for ya. [Caracal, LSE cal] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II 10MN Digital Booster Rockets Stasis Webifier II Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Hornet EC-300 x2 Some other examples: [Rupture, LSE ruppie] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile or [Stabber, LSEber] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Hope you weren't expecting a HAM caracal _______________________________________________
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:10:00 - [15] Edited by: Kail Storm on 19/02/2010 08:14:58 Lol I was expecting a HM or Ham lol thats my point the Cara is rigged as a frig killer and not much else. Lol if I fit any T1 cruiser with frig weps I can make 2 Plates work Also I wanted Vexxor or Ruppy 1600`s or 800 fits as opposed to LSE on Cald ships my point was they arent well grided If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Kail Storm Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE. I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax. Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor? How the F did we go from 'you can't fit LSE on cruisers' to 'whaaa the caracal sucks'? MEDIUM neutrons and a 1600 plate on a rax? Fit or it didn't happen. [Thorax, pwated] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M is already 400 over grid. Now what? _______________________________________________
Slade Hoo Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:15:00 - [17] Edited by: Slade Hoo on 19/02/2010 08:15:00 Originally by: Pandares [Caracal, LSE cal] 10MN Digital Booster Rockets Fitting a 140mil MWD on a t1 cruiser isn't a good example on how to fit ships, right? ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum!
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:19:00 - [18] Sorry it was electrons anyways, its not whining it was a simple fact IMO...It went along the lines of ships lining up and fittings between shields and armor. Anyways IMO its under in PWR grid as are alot of Cald ships compared to there others in same classes. I just hope you never ever point out any flaws in game or Ill be there with the WhaaaammmBulance If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Slade Hoo Edited by: Slade Hoo on 19/02/2010 08:15:00 Originally by: Pandares [Caracal, LSE cal] 10MN Digital Booster Rockets Fitting a 140mil MWD on a t1 cruiser isn't a good example on how to fit ships, right? Oh fine, then use a single LSE like a normal person and fit whatever MWD you like _______________________________________________
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:32:00 - [20] Originally by: Kail Storm Sorry it was electrons anyways, its not whining it was a simple fact IMO...It went along the lines of ships lining up and fittings between shields and armor. Anyways IMO its under in PWR grid as are alot of Cald ships compared to there others in same classes. The reason the caracal has less grid is because launchers use less grid compared to guns. Heavy assault missile launcher II's, the most grid-intense of the cruiser-sized launchers, use 124 grid. Compare that to 154 for 425mm autocannon II's, 254 for 720 Howitzer artillery II, or the 212 of heavy neutron blaster II's. The Moa, which is the Caldari gunship, has almost 1200 grid compared to the caracal's 660-ish, so it can fit rails. It all makes perfect sense, really. _______________________________________________

Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Kail Storm Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE. I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax. Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor? [Caracal, Caracal import 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Target Painter II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Faint Warp Disruptor I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile And if you want heavy launchers, lets first try to fit this: [Thorax, Snipe] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] 10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot] 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M A caracal can fit mwd + LSE + hm launchers with one RCU, that thorax doesnt fit with one RCU without the plate, it needs 3 RCUs just to fit the equivalent of an LSE (800mm plate).
Pandares Gallente hindsight is 20-20	Posted - 2010.02.19 08:55:00 - [22] Originally by: Kail Storm Sorry it was electrons anyways, its not whining it was a simple fact IMO...It went along the lines of ships lining up and fittings between shields and armor. Anyways IMO its under in PWR grid as are alot of Cald ships compared to there others in same classes. I just hope you never ever point out any flaws in game or Ill be there with the WhaaaammmBulance Don't worry about the whaaambulance; you just caught me on a day that I'm sick at home And shield and armor is really quite balanced. People just need to learn to think of these things (all things really; weapons/tanks/ships) as tools that are equally available to everyone. If you need a buffer on your gank gunship, grab a shield extender and as many damagemods as you can fit, but if you're fitting for RR grab an armor plate or 2 and some decent resists. If you want a HAM platform, don't look at the Caracal; look at a drake. If you want to kill frigates, then the Caracal is awesome. The 1600mm plated Thorax is not something that pops up on scan very often where I live. It's slow, needs to get far too close and it isn't THAT impressive to begin with. But then again, I live in 0.0. Tech 1 cruisers, if flown at all, tend to be blackbirds (go go caldari), with maybe the occasional Stabber (cuz it's so damn fun to fly). _______________________________________________
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.19 09:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Shadowy Assistant If shield tankers get a X-L Shield Extender, I demand armor tankers get an active omni hardener. In which case shield tankers want a passive omni hardener and a -50% reduction in the CPU requirement for remote shield reps and an increase in active hardener duration to 20 seconds...
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.19 09:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Kail Storm Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE. I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax. Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor? [Caracal, Caracal import 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Target Painter II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Faint Warp Disruptor I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile And if you want heavy launchers, lets first try to fit this: [Thorax, Snipe] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] 10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot] 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M A caracal can fit mwd + LSE + hm launchers with one RCU, that thorax doesnt fit with one RCU without the plate, it needs 3 RCUs just to fit the equivalent of an LSE (800mm plate). Nice bait and switch comparing the lowest possible grid missile launcher with the highest possible grid hybrid. Fit the Caracal with heavies like he said, and compare them then. Or fit the Thorax with Dual 150mms.
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.19 10:20:00 - [25] Edited by: Kail Storm on 19/02/2010 10:25:02 Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Kail Storm Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE. I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax. Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor? [Caracal, Caracal import 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Target Painter II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Faint Warp Disruptor I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile And if you want heavy launchers, lets first try to fit this: [Thorax, Snipe] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] 10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot] 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M A caracal can fit mwd + LSE + hm launchers with one RCU, that thorax doesnt fit with one RCU without the plate, it needs 3 RCUs just to fit the equivalent of an LSE (800mm plate). Lol worst 3 card monty ever LOL So you compare almost frig sized weps to the largest in class ones LOL...You sir failed this time. Also who the hell fits a slow ass 1600mm plate to a sniper RAX I said no lol fits. Plus you compare a sniper to a standard missle fit the range alone is not suited.... Now try to fit 5 Hams on there so its even but better yet match general DPS numbers 5 Hams with a BCS barely is in the same catagorey as 5 electrons on a rax. Furb you had to try alot of combos to get it that slanted. Very very bent. About the guns using more grid its somewhat true except. Proportionally the Guns dont use twice the hams power grid so why does the Moa get double? If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.19 10:37:00 - [26] [Thorax, Thorax: Solo PVP] Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Wow well you can say you need more Mag stabs but in a cara you only get 1, Now I dont know how you were doing numbers but this fit is fine with my pathetic Adv wep fitting only at 4 you have 20 grid to spare. So I dont know what the hell you were talkin about saying you needed 3 Power mods its just not true. This fit does 330+ DPS thats way more than the AML Cara and with rigs it has 30k+ EHP so you cant say they are they sameat all. If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.19 11:50:00 - [27] Would be nice if people would bother reading the post they are responding too. I clearly said IF you would want to compare to HMs you would also need to fit your thorax as sniper. I never compared to the AML setup like you claim. I explicitly said for HM setup you need one RCU, but if you are going to compare to HMs you also should compare with similar weapons on thorax, and comparing blaster thorax with lowest tier blasters with a HM caracal that has 100km+ range makes no sense. Now if you would have compared it to a HAM caracal you could have had some kind of point (although you should still then compare it to rail thorax looking at the range). And yes that is really a problem to fit, but then just use a drake, caracal isnt good with HAMs.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.02.19 11:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Last Wolf 46 cpu + 132pg (at skill level 4) is A LOT easier to fit than 38 cpu and 500 grid. (not sure if those are the accurate numbers, pulled'em from memory.) Also, it regains hp, armor does not. still say that meta4 are better than T2, both shield and armor. well more for armor tbh, considering the pros vs cons on meta4 shield extenders/armor plates vs T2 --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Mona X Caldari C0VEN	Posted - 2010.02.19 14:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Grimpak still say that meta4 are better than T2, both shield and armor. Armor yes, RTs are even better than faction. For Shield I call it BS.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.02.19 14:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Mona X Originally by: Grimpak still say that meta4 are better than T2, both shield and armor. Armor yes, RTs are even better than faction. For Shield I call it BS. it's mostly because of fittings. the hp gained comes at a high fitting cost and some signature increase, sometimes too high for frigate and cruiser sized ships, but yes, the F-S9 extender vs T2 usage is debatable. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.



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