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Alice Silversong
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Posted - 2010.02.19 05:26:00 -
[1]
Can anyone explain WTF is with these 2 mods?
Large Shield Extender II MID SLOT +2625 Shield +25 Signature Radius
1600MM Reinforced Steel Plates II LOW SLOT +4200 Armor +3750000 Mass
It looks to me shield tankers get the shaft when it comes to pvp. Armor tankers get more EHP and can fit lots of EWAR compared to their shield counterparts. Not to mention the rigs that go along with those. Shield tankers have to suffer massive sig radius increase for less EHP (Yay my Cruiser has the Sig of BS!) while Armor tankers only have to suffer from less speed (omg click ur AB/MWD!)
Can someone explain how the heck this is "balanced"?
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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
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Posted - 2010.02.19 05:27:00 -
[2]
Perhaps you don't know what a cruiser with a 1600 feels like to fly. ________
Real men fly Amarr. |
Last Wolf
Rage For Order
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Posted - 2010.02.19 05:50:00 -
[3]
46 cpu + 132pg (at skill level 4) is A LOT easier to fit than 38 cpu and 500 grid. (not sure if those are the accurate numbers, pulled'em from memory.)
Also, it regains hp, armor does not. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down |
Ammy Azimuth
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Posted - 2010.02.19 05:51:00 -
[4]
Look at fitting requirements also.
LSE is easy to fit, and no penalties to speed. IE. good for nano ships, or straight up max gank/glass cannon fits.
See shield gank brutix,cane all nano fast ships, vaga, ishtar, stabber.
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Shadowy Assistant
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Posted - 2010.02.19 05:53:00 -
[5]
If shield tankers get a X-L Shield Extender, I demand armor tankers get an active omni hardener.
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Akuma Tsukai
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.02.19 06:04:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Akuma Tsukai on 19/02/2010 06:04:18 i demand it right now, its one of the reasons active armor tank sucks even more it should ---- Drones eat everything. Trust me. |
Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.19 07:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akuma Tsukai Edited by: Akuma Tsukai on 19/02/2010 06:04:18 i demand it right now, its one of the reasons active armor tank sucks even more it should
Active armor tank sucks? lmao
-for PVE, active armor tank is just fine, same as any other tank (remember kids, you only need 'enough' tank for your mission, no EFT-peen please) -for PVP, active armor tank is already mandatory in a lot of fights. Or you think remote repping is a 'passive' endeavor? -for most non-RR pvp, buffer is the way to go anyway, and if you fit a plate or an extender depends on the ship your in and on the way you wish to fly it. _______________________________________________
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Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.19 07:30:00 -
[8]
I used to think this way but more and more I am seeing it as Balanced-ish
I think LSE 2`s need a cool 3k HP or 1/3rd less for the Regen factor, but guys please don`t use the cruiser 1600 plate thing since we cant fit a decent non lol fit on our cruisers with LSE`s.
But with the Weight to Shield size issue I think its a wash, Slow=EZ target Hugesig radius=EZ target.
But where armor guys get the huge advantage is RR it is just rediculous how much ezer fitting it is for Armor than shields and because of this Shields aren`t viable for big fleets. Not anything bigger than 15 on 15 with BS`s IMO.
So basically its fair but in large fleets its not at all and we all know it. Hell it costs barely any more to use RR than local tank.
The regen factor also doesnt play a big role in PVP as much as it used to because of buffer tanks and the HUge amounts of Blob DPS output these days. In other words ships dont get alot of time to regen....It may matter solo but then as a rule armor ships have more buffer which means longer time also.
I think a bigger tragedy is Caldari ships and there weak ass power grids Night Hawk almost half the grid as the sleip and basically they share a very similiar slot and fit with the sleip able to fit a xl booster also most our cruisers are garbage compared to others like Ruppy and Rax...Oh yeah and hybrids need a look at also.
TL;DR There are bigger probs like -Rockets and gimped Af [Hawk] -Cald ship power grids [Night Hawk ETC] -RR totally favoring armor in every way
If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Slade Hoo
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.02.19 07:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kail Storm
-RR totally favoring armor in every way
ever heard of shield transporters? ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.19 07:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kail Storm we cant fit a decent non lol fit on our cruisers with LSE`s.
Fitting a 1600mm plate is a LOT harder than fitting an LSE, and both can be done. In 'non-lol' fits. In fact, fitting a MSE is strictly for frigates/destroyers, in my opinion. _______________________________________________
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Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.19 07:40:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Kail Storm on 19/02/2010 07:41:19
Originally by: Slade Hoo
Originally by: Kail Storm
-RR totally favoring armor in every way
ever heard of shield transporters?
Lol have you looked at the Grid/Cpu reqs its night and day Esp since we are low on grid as it is...
If they were equal than all the good fleets would be mixed...LOl they arent at all its strictly Armor.
And panderas please show me these NOn lol fits of yours, especially the Rax or Vexxor 1600mm vs the Cara LSE.
If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.19 07:44:00 -
[12]
Cara fits LSE so much easier than thorax fits 1600mm it isnt even funny.
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Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:04:00 -
[13]
Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE.
I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax.
Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor?
If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kail Storm And panderas please show me these NOn lol fits of yours, especially the Rax or Vexxor 1600mm vs the Cara LSE.
Pft caracal. Even put 2 on it for ya.
[Caracal, LSE cal] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II 10MN Digital Booster Rockets Stasis Webifier II
Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Hornet EC-300 x2
Some other examples:
[Rupture, LSE ruppie] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile
or
[Stabber, LSEber] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile
Hope you weren't expecting a HAM caracal _______________________________________________
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Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:10:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kail Storm on 19/02/2010 08:14:58 Lol I was expecting a HM or Ham lol thats my point the Cara is rigged as a frig killer and not much else. Lol if I fit any T1 cruiser with frig weps I can make 2 Plates work
Also I wanted Vexxor or Ruppy 1600`s or 800 fits as opposed to LSE on Cald ships my point was they arent well grided If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kail Storm Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE.
I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax.
Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor?
How the F did we go from 'you can't fit LSE on cruisers' to 'whaaa the caracal sucks'?
MEDIUM neutrons and a 1600 plate on a rax? Fit or it didn't happen.
[Thorax, pwated] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M
is already 400 over grid. Now what?
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Slade Hoo
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:15:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 19/02/2010 08:15:00
Originally by: Pandares
[Caracal, LSE cal]
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
Fitting a 140mil MWD on a t1 cruiser isn't a good example on how to fit ships, right? ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:19:00 -
[18]
Sorry it was electrons anyways, its not whining it was a simple fact IMO...It went along the lines of ships lining up and fittings between shields and armor.
Anyways IMO its under in PWR grid as are alot of Cald ships compared to there others in same classes.
I just hope you never ever point out any flaws in game or Ill be there with the WhaaaammmBulance If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Slade Hoo Edited by: Slade Hoo on 19/02/2010 08:15:00
Originally by: Pandares
[Caracal, LSE cal]
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
Fitting a 140mil MWD on a t1 cruiser isn't a good example on how to fit ships, right?
Oh fine, then use a single LSE like a normal person and fit whatever MWD you like _______________________________________________
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Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kail Storm Sorry it was electrons anyways, its not whining it was a simple fact IMO...It went along the lines of ships lining up and fittings between shields and armor.
Anyways IMO its under in PWR grid as are alot of Cald ships compared to there others in same classes.
The reason the caracal has less grid is because launchers use less grid compared to guns. Heavy assault missile launcher II's, the most grid-intense of the cruiser-sized launchers, use 124 grid. Compare that to 154 for 425mm autocannon II's, 254 for 720 Howitzer artillery II, or the 212 of heavy neutron blaster II's.
The Moa, which is the Caldari gunship, has almost 1200 grid compared to the caracal's 660-ish, so it can fit rails. It all makes perfect sense, really.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kail Storm Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE.
I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax.
Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor?
[Caracal, Caracal import 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Target Painter II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Faint Warp Disruptor I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile
And if you want heavy launchers, lets first try to fit this: [Thorax, Snipe] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
A caracal can fit mwd + LSE + hm launchers with one RCU, that thorax doesnt fit with one RCU without the plate, it needs 3 RCUs just to fit the equivalent of an LSE (800mm plate).
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Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kail Storm Sorry it was electrons anyways, its not whining it was a simple fact IMO...It went along the lines of ships lining up and fittings between shields and armor.
Anyways IMO its under in PWR grid as are alot of Cald ships compared to there others in same classes.
I just hope you never ever point out any flaws in game or Ill be there with the WhaaaammmBulance
Don't worry about the whaaambulance; you just caught me on a day that I'm sick at home
And shield and armor is really quite balanced. People just need to learn to think of these things (all things really; weapons/tanks/ships) as tools that are equally available to everyone. If you need a buffer on your gank gunship, grab a shield extender and as many damagemods as you can fit, but if you're fitting for RR grab an armor plate or 2 and some decent resists. If you want a HAM platform, don't look at the Caracal; look at a drake. If you want to kill frigates, then the Caracal is awesome.
The 1600mm plated Thorax is not something that pops up on scan very often where I live. It's slow, needs to get far too close and it isn't THAT impressive to begin with. But then again, I live in 0.0. Tech 1 cruisers, if flown at all, tend to be blackbirds (go go caldari), with maybe the occasional Stabber (cuz it's so damn fun to fly). _______________________________________________
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.19 09:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shadowy Assistant If shield tankers get a X-L Shield Extender, I demand armor tankers get an active omni hardener.
In which case shield tankers want a passive omni hardener and a -50% reduction in the CPU requirement for remote shield reps and an increase in active hardener duration to 20 seconds...
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.19 09:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Kail Storm Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE.
I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax.
Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor?
[Caracal, Caracal import 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Target Painter II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Faint Warp Disruptor I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile
And if you want heavy launchers, lets first try to fit this: [Thorax, Snipe] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
A caracal can fit mwd + LSE + hm launchers with one RCU, that thorax doesnt fit with one RCU without the plate, it needs 3 RCUs just to fit the equivalent of an LSE (800mm plate).
Nice bait and switch comparing the lowest possible grid missile launcher with the highest possible grid hybrid.
Fit the Caracal with heavies like he said, and compare them then. Or fit the Thorax with Dual 150mms.
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Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.19 10:20:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Kail Storm on 19/02/2010 10:25:02
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Kail Storm Show me the fit Furb. Its hard to fit Heavies on a MWD`d Cara let alone a LSE.
I have plenty of friends who use Nuetrons I think and 1600`s on Rax.
Plus ontop of it all are you saying a Cara could compete with a Rax? Or Ruppy? Or Vexxor?
[Caracal, Caracal import 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Target Painter II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Faint Warp Disruptor I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile
And if you want heavy launchers, lets first try to fit this: [Thorax, Snipe] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
A caracal can fit mwd + LSE + hm launchers with one RCU, that thorax doesnt fit with one RCU without the plate, it needs 3 RCUs just to fit the equivalent of an LSE (800mm plate).
Lol worst 3 card monty ever LOL So you compare almost frig sized weps to the largest in class ones LOL...You sir failed this time. Also who the hell fits a slow ass 1600mm plate to a sniper RAX I said no lol fits.
Plus you compare a sniper to a standard missle fit the range alone is not suited....
Now try to fit 5 Hams on there so its even but better yet match general DPS numbers 5 Hams with a BCS barely is in the same catagorey as 5 electrons on a rax.
Furb you had to try alot of combos to get it that slanted. Very very bent.
About the guns using more grid its somewhat true except. Proportionally the Guns dont use twice the hams power grid so why does the Moa get double?
If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.19 10:37:00 -
[26]
[Thorax, Thorax: Solo PVP] Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Wow well you can say you need more Mag stabs but in a cara you only get 1,
Now I dont know how you were doing numbers but this fit is fine with my pathetic Adv wep fitting only at 4 you have 20 grid to spare. So I dont know what the hell you were talkin about saying you needed 3 Power mods its just not true.
This fit does 330+ DPS thats way more than the AML Cara and with rigs it has 30k+ EHP so you cant say they are they sameat all. If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.19 11:50:00 -
[27]
Would be nice if people would bother reading the post they are responding too.
I clearly said IF you would want to compare to HMs you would also need to fit your thorax as sniper. I never compared to the AML setup like you claim. I explicitly said for HM setup you need one RCU, but if you are going to compare to HMs you also should compare with similar weapons on thorax, and comparing blaster thorax with lowest tier blasters with a HM caracal that has 100km+ range makes no sense.
Now if you would have compared it to a HAM caracal you could have had some kind of point (although you should still then compare it to rail thorax looking at the range). And yes that is really a problem to fit, but then just use a drake, caracal isnt good with HAMs.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.19 11:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Last Wolf 46 cpu + 132pg (at skill level 4) is A LOT easier to fit than 38 cpu and 500 grid. (not sure if those are the accurate numbers, pulled'em from memory.)
Also, it regains hp, armor does not.
still say that meta4 are better than T2, both shield and armor.
well more for armor tbh, considering the pros vs cons on meta4 shield extenders/armor plates vs T2 ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Mona X
Caldari C0VEN
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Posted - 2010.02.19 14:12:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Grimpak
still say that meta4 are better than T2, both shield and armor.
Armor yes, RTs are even better than faction. For Shield I call it BS.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.19 14:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mona X
Originally by: Grimpak
still say that meta4 are better than T2, both shield and armor.
Armor yes, RTs are even better than faction. For Shield I call it BS.
it's mostly because of fittings. the hp gained comes at a high fitting cost and some signature increase, sometimes too high for frigate and cruiser sized ships, but yes, the F-S9 extender vs T2 usage is debatable. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.02.19 14:31:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Pandares
Originally by: Akuma Tsukai Edited by: Akuma Tsukai on 19/02/2010 06:04:18 i demand it right now, its one of the reasons active armor tank sucks even more it should
Active armor tank sucks? lmao
-for PVE, active armor tank is just fine, same as any other tank (remember kids, you only need 'enough' tank for your mission, no EFT-peen please) -for PVP, active armor tank is already mandatory in a lot of fights. Or you think remote repping is a 'passive' endeavor? -for most non-RR pvp, buffer is the way to go anyway, and if you fit a plate or an extender depends on the ship your in and on the way you wish to fly it.
you forget solo PVP, in which it is completely normal to have a local (active) tank (shield or armor) __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.19 14:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
Originally by: Pandares
Originally by: Akuma Tsukai Edited by: Akuma Tsukai on 19/02/2010 06:04:18 i demand it right now, its one of the reasons active armor tank sucks even more it should
Active armor tank sucks? lmao
-for PVE, active armor tank is just fine, same as any other tank (remember kids, you only need 'enough' tank for your mission, no EFT-peen please) -for PVP, active armor tank is already mandatory in a lot of fights. Or you think remote repping is a 'passive' endeavor? -for most non-RR pvp, buffer is the way to go anyway, and if you fit a plate or an extender depends on the ship your in and on the way you wish to fly it.
you forget solo PVP, in which it is completely normal to have a local (active) tank (shield or armor)
Fair enough; didn't mention them. And as you say, both are common. _______________________________________________
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Arrador
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Posted - 2010.02.19 15:10:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Arrador on 19/02/2010 15:11:04
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Shadowy Assistant If shield tankers get a X-L Shield Extender, I demand armor tankers get an active omni hardener.
In which case shield tankers want a passive omni hardener and a -50% reduction in the CPU requirement for remote shield reps and an increase in active hardener duration to 20 seconds...
We Shield tankers would also like better base resists please
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Scrapyard Attendant
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Posted - 2010.02.19 15:17:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Scrapyard Attendant on 19/02/2010 15:24:10 /sigh @ whinging caldari carebears
if you want more ehp or w/e, cross train to armor idiots
EDIT:
forgot to add shield tankers can fit more damage mods than us armor tankers ( hence the referalls to the shield brutix )
shield gank hyper gets 100k ehp and 1k+ dps, and you still whine that your shield tanks "suck", HAHAHAHAH
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Apoctasy
Deskira Industries G String University
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Posted - 2010.02.19 18:06:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Perhaps you don't know what a cruiser with a 1600 feels like to fly.
like a pregnant sperm whale.
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Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.19 20:32:00 -
[36]
I dont think shield tank sucks at all...But Shield RR is definately a Joke...Plus your argument about whinging cald carebears sucks because you go on to only mention shield ships from Galante...Lol you only mention how much better Gal ships are with shields which are made for Armor...Lol ******ed If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Fnuik Hawes
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Posted - 2010.02.20 11:49:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kail Storm I dont think shield tank sucks at all...But Shield RR is definately a Joke...Plus your argument about whinging cald carebears sucks because you go on to only mention shield ships from Galante...Lol you only mention how much better Gal ships are with shields which are made for Armor...Lol ******ed
You've never seen the awesome that's a HAC gang with Scimitars in support, I'm guessing.
Give up already.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.20 11:55:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Fnuik Hawes
Originally by: Kail Storm I dont think shield tank sucks at all...But Shield RR is definately a Joke...Plus your argument about whinging cald carebears sucks because you go on to only mention shield ships from Galante...Lol you only mention how much better Gal ships are with shields which are made for Armor...Lol ******ed
You've never seen the awesome that's a HAC gang with Scimitars in support, I'm guessing.
Give up already.
Scimitars are nice and all, but have you tried fitting a shield rep setup to anything that doesn't have a massive CPU discount?
I mean, compare if you will, how easily you can get a 'solace' rep onto a battleship, vs. a shield transporter. Plenty of battleships have 32 CPU and 600 grid to spare - that's less than the majority of BS weapons. Even with t2, you're talking 48 CPU, 660 grid, which isn't that much of a chore to accomplish - I'll confess I tend not to, as I'd rather have an EANM.
Not so many have 119 (or 154!) CPU to spare.
I don't mind overly that 'most' BS are naturally armour tankers, and that shield RR works best on smaller ships with inbuilt resists. That's reasonable. What I do mind is that the 'shield centric' battleships have a phenomenally hard time pulling off shield RR - despite the tempest and raven having two 'utility' highslots.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2010.02.20 12:01:00 -
[39]
Armor tanking is only weak atm because of armor rigs, not only are they expensive but the penalty is heavy to bear in addition to the speed penalty you already get from each plate in lows.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.02.20 12:06:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 20/02/2010 12:09:15 Edited by: Slade Hoo on 20/02/2010 12:08:11
Originally by: Psiri but the penalty is heavy to bear in addition to the speed penalty you already get from each plate in lows.
My trimarked+plated Abaddon is slower than a ****ing Nyx (88m/s)!
Signature radius penalty is only a problem for overtanked+rigged cruisers ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2010.02.20 12:14:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Perhaps you don't know what a cruiser with a 1600 feels like to fly.
Easiest set-up for a "ur mom" joke ever
I find LSEs are always preferable given the choice because of the speed/agility nerf a plated ship receives. In practical usage that stuff counts for way more than you'd think.
If they made X-LSEs I'd never armour tank a ship again.
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Fulbert
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.20 12:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Alice Silversong Can anyone explain WTF is with these 2 mods?
Large Shield Extender II MID SLOT +2625 Shield +25 Signature Radius
1600MM Reinforced Steel Plates II LOW SLOT +4200 Armor +3750000 Mass
There's a mistake Large shield mods are for cruiser-size ships, BS use X-Large 1600mm plates are designed for battleships, cruisers use 400 or 800mm. -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist |
Dabljuh
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Posted - 2010.02.20 13:12:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Fulbert There's a mistake Large shield mods are for cruiser-size ships, BS use X-Large 1600mm plates are designed for battleships, cruisers use 400 or 800mm.
And you figured that out how? Seeing that LSEs have fitting reqs lower by an order of magnitude? Circular reasoning detected.
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Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.20 20:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Kail Storm on 20/02/2010 20:32:20 In a armored BS the RR is an after thought and you dont have to sacrafice any setup to have it almost at all since James said it best its less than most BS weps in grid etc.
So this means they can fit 2, if they can sacrafice a little.In Shield RR we have to sacrafice to fit 1.
So the scimitar argument is garbage since that scimitar could be another BS spider tanking your group and putting out 900 DPS IN THE PROCESS LOL.
So if you have 2 dedicated shield reps its 1800 DPS LOST that is the differance between win and lose...PERIOD
Scimitar is great for small gangs and small gate camps but if a RR fleet of BS`s come your dead, like I said. But now you need a Logi cruiser to run a Shield RR gang where as you need a BS to RR a Armored one. If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Pandares
Gallente hindsight is 20-20
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Posted - 2010.02.21 22:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kail Storm Edited by: Kail Storm on 20/02/2010 20:32:20 In a armored BS the RR is an after thought and you dont have to sacrafice any setup to have it almost at all since James said it best its less than most BS weps in grid etc.
So this means they can fit 2, if they can sacrafice a little.In Shield RR we have to sacrafice to fit 1.
So the scimitar argument is garbage since that scimitar could be another BS spider tanking your group and putting out 900 DPS IN THE PROCESS LOL.
So if you have 2 dedicated shield reps its 1800 DPS LOST that is the differance between win and lose...PERIOD
Scimitar is great for small gangs and small gate camps but if a RR fleet of BS`s come your dead, like I said. But now you need a Logi cruiser to run a Shield RR gang where as you need a BS to RR a Armored one.
ugh what's so hard about understanding that there's different tools for different jobs? Do you think carpenters whine about the fact that they can't cut a plank to size with a hammer? If armor tanking gives you wood, invest the week-and-a-half it takes to learn it. _______________________________________________
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.21 22:32:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Pandares
ugh what's so hard about understanding that there's different tools for different jobs? Do you think carpenters whine about the fact that they can't cut a plank to size with a hammer? If armor tanking gives you wood, invest the week-and-a-half it takes to learn it.
It's a bit more than a week and a half to cross train to an acceptable level. Or were you perhaps referring to trying to shoehorn a Caldari BS into an armour RR role? Terrible idea. Really. Try it sometime.
But that's not the point, really. I mean, I _have_ cross trained. I have Amarr BS 5, T2 lasers from my Caldari specced start. The Abaddon/Armageddon are beasts as RR ships go.
That's fine. My problem is, and remains, that I cannot see a single reason why it's so hard to fit a shield transporter - stats wise they're very comparable to an armor RR mod. You'd get the 'different tools for different jobs' thing automatically, simply because of the difference in nature of shield vs. armour tanks in the first place - where armour tanks get meaty buffers and mislots for supplemental modules, shield tankers get damage mods and don't get mass increases and speed reductions trimarks.
So tell me, really, what would be so overpowered if I actually _could_ field a single/dual RR Arty-pest, Raven, or drop a gun and do so with a Rokh/Maelstrom? And maybe, just because I'm feeling deeply and morally wrong, shield tank Megathrons, Abaddons and Hyperions too.
Would the world really end? I don't think so. I think the idea would be penalized enough by the midslot count - you'd make a bad shield tank on a Mega, but it _would_ let you do some other interesting things with your lowslots maybe? Maybe you're fitting rails, and don't see a need for auxiliary mods in your mids? *shrug*. Maybe that would be daft anyway, but even if it is, what's the harm in having more options?
What's the harm in being able to do a shield BS RR gang, with midrange artypests and ravens, losing their tackle, sensorboosting and maybe their injector, but getting raw damage output in return?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.21 22:50:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Pandares
ugh what's so hard about understanding that there's different tools for different jobs? Do you think carpenters whine about the fact that they can't cut a plank to size with a hammer? If armor tanking gives you wood, invest the week-and-a-half it takes to learn it.
It's a bit more than a week and a half to cross train to an acceptable level. Or were you perhaps referring to trying to shoehorn a Caldari BS into an armour RR role? Terrible idea. Really. Try it sometime.
But that's not the point, really. I mean, I _have_ cross trained. I have Amarr BS 5, T2 lasers from my Caldari specced start. The Abaddon/Armageddon are beasts as RR ships go.
That's fine. My problem is, and remains, that I cannot see a single reason why it's so hard to fit a shield transporter - stats wise they're very comparable to an armor RR mod. You'd get the 'different tools for different jobs' thing automatically, simply because of the difference in nature of shield vs. armour tanks in the first place - where armour tanks get meaty buffers and mislots for supplemental modules, shield tankers get damage mods and don't get mass increases and speed reductions trimarks.
So tell me, really, what would be so overpowered if I actually _could_ field a single/dual RR Arty-pest, Raven, or drop a gun and do so with a Rokh/Maelstrom? And maybe, just because I'm feeling deeply and morally wrong, shield tank Megathrons, Abaddons and Hyperions too.
Would the world really end? I don't think so. I think the idea would be penalized enough by the midslot count - you'd make a bad shield tank on a Mega, but it _would_ let you do some other interesting things with your lowslots maybe? Maybe you're fitting rails, and don't see a need for auxiliary mods in your mids? *shrug*. Maybe that would be daft anyway, but even if it is, what's the harm in having more options?
What's the harm in being able to do a shield BS RR gang, with midrange artypests and ravens, losing their tackle, sensorboosting and maybe their injector, but getting raw damage output in return?
Or for that matter why a Chimera has so much harder a time fitting 4x shield RR modules? I mean, it's not a problem you have with armour RR modules.
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Kail Storm
Caldari Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2010.02.21 22:57:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Pandares
Originally by: Kail Storm Edited by: Kail Storm on 20/02/2010 20:32:20 In a armored BS the RR is an after thought and you dont have to sacrafice any setup to have it almost at all since James said it best its less than most BS weps in grid etc.
So this means they can fit 2, if they can sacrafice a little.In Shield RR we have to sacrafice to fit 1.
So the scimitar argument is garbage since that scimitar could be another BS spider tanking your group and putting out 900 DPS IN THE PROCESS LOL.
So if you have 2 dedicated shield reps its 1800 DPS LOST that is the differance between win and lose...PERIOD
Scimitar is great for small gangs and small gate camps but if a RR fleet of BS`s come your dead, like I said. But now you need a Logi cruiser to run a Shield RR gang where as you need a BS to RR a Armored one.
ugh what's so hard about understanding that there's different tools for different jobs? Do you think carpenters whine about the fact that they can't cut a plank to size with a hammer? If armor tanking gives you wood, invest the week-and-a-half it takes to learn it.
sERIOUSLY MAN BE REASONABLE, im not asking for shield RR to be superior, only that it can be fit, hell the RR rate of shields is already lower on top of that they have to make it so hard you cant fit them.
Lol, getting my Armor skills up means I have to crosstrain another race which=2-3 months to be any good with t2 weps and skills. Not a week and a 1/2.
Im not saying it should be better just at least so we will see shield fleets every now and then.
As if now shields are superior in alot of ways in small groups but could armor`d ships compete...absolutely and in fact they could win just as well...COuld a BS RR shield vs Armor fleet compete...Absolutely not END OF STORY. If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
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