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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Ghost Festival Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.02.22 06:03:00 -
[1]
It has seemed to me for a long time that the Amarrian capsuleer, more than most, is faced with a fundamental contradiction, a dissonance set into the very core of your identity. It is a problem that will face some more than others, the variation based upon orthodoxy and close adherence to doctrine, but to underly all to one degree or another, a vein of unclarity-- maybe even a fault.
A question, then, or, perhaps, an experiment in thought.
Let us assume a few things.
First, that your God exists, and that He seeks the establishment of a united humanity, brought together through Amarrian service.
Second, that the more orthodox and conservative among you have the right of your faith: cloning is corruptive, redemption of the fallen impossible.
If this is so, then what are we to say of you?
That you, corrupted, serve a God by the very means of sinning against Him? That you sacrifice your very souls to create His kingdom?
Do you believe that, by doing so, you will merit an exception-- that your God will smile upon your willingness to sacrifice even what is most perfect and holy about yourselves in pursuing His service?
If that is so, why should all others but you cling so tight to the traditions and old ways, flying ships only little-touched by unhallowed technologies, their designs approved by the hierarchy of your faith? In that spaceborne cathedral, that little shrine where you personally worship is a thing alien-- a core of blasphemy, unsanctified Jovian technology.
Do you believe your god simply ... tolerates this, for the sake of your success? Or do you dedicate your lives, selflessly, to a paradise in which you can never participate (hoping you do not taint it in the process)-- the still-loyal bastard children of divinity?
If a god can embrace folly, does this compromise its perfection? Or if that god cannot-- then what worship or loyalty do we, outcast, owe to a deity whose perfection cannot embrace us?
What service or loyalty do you owe to a god whose works will hold no place for you?
It is understood that many of you do not believe these things, but it is clear enough that many of your human kin do. What, then, do you make of that? What will you make of the universe-- and what would you have the universe make of you?
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Kazuma Ry
Amarr Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna
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Posted - 2010.02.22 08:02:00 -
[2]
I see it as this, we would not be using Pod Technology if the Theology Council had deemed it unholy. The pod technology that the Empire uses has been blessed, so in the eyes of God, it is not blasphemy.
To the idea that being a clone prevents us from entering heaven when our time comes, I see this as a small price to pay in the service of God. If I, by being what is considered an Immortal can do God's work for him longer then other citizens, Can do His work with better technology then the Navies, Then I am willing to pay this price, so that in the end, all the races can be under His Blessing and Grace.
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Jon Engel
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2010.02.22 08:06:00 -
[3]
Or to a more basic criticism.
If service to god is rewarded in the afterlife. Why bother giving a **** if you don't die?
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Kazuma Ry
Amarr Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna
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Posted - 2010.02.22 08:20:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jon Engel Or to a more basic criticism.
If service to god is rewarded in the afterlife. Why bother giving a **** if you don't die?
Because the perceived Immortality that Pod-pilots have is not a certainty. When we clone jump, or our current body is killed and we move into our new Clone, complications can happen. We do have ways of permanently dying, and we must remember to do what we can in the name of the Lord and Empire.
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Lucius Vindictus
Amarr Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2010.02.22 08:25:00 -
[5]
I am but a humble soldier with a military background and possess limited knowledge of theological matters. Nevertheless I'll try to apply what I know and understand:
There is no Imperial precedent that establishes the status of capsuleers in the eyes of God. Until such is created I must go by that which is written. Religious doctrines like that of the Sacred Flesh teach us that cloning corrupts humans; and Holders especially are barred from using such technology. For these reasons I will assume that we capsuleers have no special spiritual status that exempts us from the divine laws that apply to everyone else.
I don't understand why you would say that any of us would object to flying "unhallowed" technologies. What are those precisely? If you mean that there are Amarrians who prefer flying only in Amarrian hulls, I say that you are right, but that those are a minority. And even those will use drones and such designed by the other races which in my opinion makes the whole practice senseless. Ships and devices are just things; tools to be used by those who wield them. It's the creators who are either good or evil. Personally I rather enjoy using my enemy's own weapons against them and have no difficulties or compunctions about that. If with "unhallowed" instead you meant flying in ships riddled with detection and failsafes and plugs to be pulled out by CONCORD ... I agree, it doesn't sit well with me. But it is beyond my power to rectify. This is not the work of god though, but the political machinations of man.
As for our place in the great design... time will tell. We Amarrians have learned to be patient because time itself is one of our greatest allies. Perhaps capsuleers will be the salvation of our race. Or we may become so hated that we will be hunted into extinction. I believe it would be a simple matter for the empires to cripple us so long as we rely on the Jove/CONCORD technologies they limit us with.
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Ghost Hunter
Kinetic Vector
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Posted - 2010.02.22 08:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kazuma Ry
Originally by: Jon Engel Or to a more basic criticism.
If service to god is rewarded in the afterlife. Why bother giving a **** if you don't die?
Because the perceived Immortality that Pod-pilots have is not a certainty. When we clone jump, or our current body is killed and we move into our new Clone, complications can happen. We do have ways of permanently dying, and we must remember to do what we can in the name of the Lord and Empire.
Your terminology is incorrect.
When you "pod jump" or otherwise similar form thereof, you are indeed killing your current body to hop into a new one.
Clone jumping is a safe enough method that the previous body is reusable. ______
True Slave Foundations Overseer
The Seven Events of the Apocalypse The fourth event is described by Macaper as ôthe appetite of nothing expands over the worldö; |
Kazuma Ry
Amarr Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna
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Posted - 2010.02.22 08:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ghost Hunter
Your terminology is incorrect.
When you "pod jump" or otherwise similar form thereof, you are indeed killing your current body to hop into a new one.
Clone jumping is a safe enough method that the previous body is reusable.
Thank you for the correction, Mr Hunter
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen A.R.K.
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Posted - 2010.02.22 11:07:00 -
[8]
It is a very complex issue but I try to keep it simple.
The flesh of a Holder is sacred, ours is not (that much sacred). If a Holder gets cloned there is a guaranteed loss of quality. If a pod pilot gets cloned our clone can provide equal quality.
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RaveNight
Amarr The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.22 12:01:00 -
[9]
Edited by: RaveNight on 22/02/2010 12:01:09
Originally by: Jon Engel Or to a more basic criticism.
If service to god is rewarded in the afterlife. Why bother giving a **** if you don't die?
Immortality is not such. Mistakes can occur in the technology. Most notably, however, is the pilot's ability to request no clone service, and thus remove their immortality.
That aside, I still await a decent answer. And hopefully it comes from names that are respected in the Empire, not just a member of the bandwagon.
Edited for typo's
-------------------------------- From the Darkness, Seen only when desires. |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.22 12:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
What service or loyalty do you owe to a god whose works will hold no place for you?
The idea that a reward is always needed to owe loyalty or service is faulty. The knowledge of doing something that serves a higher purpose can be its own reward. The knowledge that others will get a reward for your sacrifice is a reward.
What is the reward for unbelievers that sacrifice themselves for their family, tribe, nation or principles?
For those that belief that kind of thing (I don't) dooming their own soul is the ultimate sacrifice and service they can make. Wholly selfless Angels of Vengeance.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
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Koronakesh
Amarr Varion Galactic
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Posted - 2010.02.22 13:09:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Do you believe that, by doing so, you will merit an exception-- that your God will smile upon your willingness to sacrifice even what is most perfect and holy about yourselves in pursuing His service?
The nature of my service necessitates the sacrifice. If successful, then forgiveness may be obtained.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Do you believe your god simply ... tolerates this, for the sake of your success? Or do you dedicate your lives, selflessly, to a paradise in which you can never participate (hoping you do not taint it in the process)-- the still-loyal bastard children of divinity?
Whether or not forgiveness for myself can be gotten is irrelevant. The progress towards the Silence of Paradise proceeds regardless.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth What service or loyalty do you owe to a god whose works will hold no place for you?
We exist by His will. If it is His will that we are unable to take residence in Heaven, so be it. But there are trillions of others who yet have the opportunity of passing their judgement, and that potential will not be sacrificed for some fleeting, individualistic sense of exploitation. We are uniquely qualified to bring their untapped potential to its fruition.
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Darveses
DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.22 13:21:00 -
[12]
The Amarr say "Everyone who doesn't believe in our god will burn in hell". ANY other religion says the same. So, even should I choose to "serve your god and love him and stuff", I'd go to hell for not doing the same for another one.
Anyone care to solve this problem for me, and save my doomed soul in the afterlife? *snickers* --- Star Fraction Public - Follow us on YouTube!
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.22 13:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Darveses The Amarr say "Everyone who doesn't believe in our god will burn in hell". ANY other religion says the same. So, even should I choose to "serve your god and love him and stuff", I'd go to hell for not doing the same for another one.
Anyone care to solve this problem for me, and save my doomed soul in the afterlife? *snickers*
The difference is that our religion is true, whereas all of those other religions are just illusionary.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Darveses
DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.22 14:05:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
The difference is that our religion is true, whereas all of those other religions are just illusionary.
Well thats what they say too.
I object to that kind of confusions, its my soul thats at stake here! *grins*
--- Star Fraction Public - Follow us on YouTube!
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Louella Dougans
Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2010.02.22 14:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Let us assume a few things.
First, that your God exists, and that He seeks the establishment of a united humanity, brought together through Amarrian service.
Second, that the more orthodox and conservative among you have the right of your faith: cloning is corruptive, redemption of the fallen impossible.
First assumption requires clarification, God wishes all to hear his Words, and live in the joy and love that they bring.
Second assumption, please elaborate upon. This "redemption of the fallen" statement.
Quote: What service or loyalty do you owe to a god whose works will hold no place for you?
It is understood that many of you do not believe these things, but it is clear enough that many of your human kin do. What, then, do you make of that? What will you make of the universe-- and what would you have the universe make of you
There is the tale, by the prophet Junip, of Garum, Zakara and the Beast. All about sacrificing oneself to save others. As well as the words of the Askura. Again, about sacrifice for others.
Consequently, what does it matter if there is indeed no place in God's Work for the capsuleer? debateable though that is.
Be A Space Nun! It's Fun!! |
Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2010.02.22 17:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Arderich
The flesh of a Holder is sacred, ours is not (that much sacred). If a Holder gets cloned there is a guaranteed loss of quality. If a pod pilot gets cloned our clone can provide equal quality.
This is the most accurate way of describing the situation. We are not holders, so there is really no serious theological issues.
Now, were a holder or someone even of higher status to be cloned, then we would indeed have a significant issue. You'd have an abomination, and nothing more. Just speaking hypothetically, of course.
Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Sophie Starsparrow
Minmatar Starfish Operating Syndicate Annwn Matari
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Posted - 2010.02.22 18:05:00 -
[17]
A holder or someone higher? Like an Empress?
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Nyliosa
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Posted - 2010.02.22 18:07:00 -
[18]
It should be noted that a reason for this is that the best clone quality is achieved when the clone is created from the body of a recently deceased person. It's a small fact that isn't usually broadcast by the companies involved in the process.
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Kyara Armaros
Amarr Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2010.02.22 18:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sophie Starsparrow A holder or someone higher? Like an Empress?
One could argue the point. Hypothetically of course. |
Sinti Vailatti
Kuomi Logistics
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Posted - 2010.02.22 20:48:00 -
[20]
You don't have to be Amarrian to believe in God.
You don't have to be of another race to be without faith.
I'm Amarrian by residence, genetically Minmatar. I believe in God. I am rewarded now for my service and expect this to continue in my next life.
Nothing, no one, save God Himself is without death. Some of us are just on a longer timeline than others. But we all get one life, not matter how long or short. You can disbleive God, but yet I know you all hear that small voice inside that says "what if?"
God is there. Look for Him inside you. Around you.
You can try to ignore Him, but you can't.
KUOMI LOGISTICS: The bright future, today!Ö |
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Ghost Hunter
Kinetic Vector
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Posted - 2010.02.22 21:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nyliosa It should be noted that a reason for this is that the best clone quality is achieved when the clone is created from the body of a recently deceased person. It's a small fact that isn't usually broadcast by the companies involved in the process.
That is simply incorrect. ______
True Slave Foundations Overseer
The Seven Events of the Apocalypse The fourth event is described by Macaper as ôthe appetite of nothing expands over the worldö; |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.02.22 22:04:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 22/02/2010 22:04:53
Originally by: Ghost Hunter
Originally by: Nyliosa It should be noted that a reason for this is that the best clone quality is achieved when the clone is created from the body of a recently deceased person. It's a small fact that isn't usually broadcast by the companies involved in the process.
That is simply incorrect.
Actually, sir, although I would hate to correct a Sansha, it is actually simply correct. -----
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Ghost Hunter
Kinetic Vector
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Posted - 2010.02.22 22:14:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ghost Hunter on 22/02/2010 22:16:19
Originally by: Andreus LeHane ...
The error was in the principle of the body having to be "recently deceased". Human corpses are the most satisfactory biomass to use, I was not contesting this. The nature of the corpse's death dictates its usefulness, not the time of its acquisition.
Edit; redundant word deleted. ______
True Slave Foundations Overseer
The Seven Events of the Apocalypse The fourth event is described by Macaper as ôthe appetite of nothing expands over the worldö; |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.02.22 22:38:00 -
[24]
Human corpses - and indeed, the corpse of any carbon-based life form - degrades over time, no matter what measures are taken to preserve it. While outright decomposition may be averted through correct medical procedures, the simple fact remains that the sooner you get a corpse to a cloning station, the more use it is. Therefore, while it is not directly stated, one can infer that "human corpses in perfect condition" are probably the ones that arrive at a cloning station fairly shortly after their death. -----
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Ghost Hunter
Kinetic Vector
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Posted - 2010.02.22 23:04:00 -
[25]
I believe I have found the discrepancy.
My apologies, years of working with biomass have skewed my perception of "perfect" pieces. In the proper context that is your angle, then I am the one who is incorrect. ______
True Slave Foundations Overseer
The Seven Events of the Apocalypse The fourth event is described by Macaper as ôthe appetite of nothing expands over the worldö; |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.02.22 23:26:00 -
[26]
Well that was... unexpected.
The universe is full of surprises. -----
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Samuel Cole
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.22 23:37:00 -
[27]
You ask good questions, Ms Jenneth. I'll do my best to answer them, although I'm no theologian, because my answers might differ from those you'd gain from a follower of Amarrian Orthodoxy.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth First, that your God exists, and that He seeks the establishment of a united humanity, brought together through Amarrian service.
Simply because God wishes unity and peace does not mean that that unity and peace must come about through Amarrian imperialism. Remember that the Sefrim abandoned Amash-Akura the moment he began to make war upon his neighbor.
Quote: Second, that the more orthodox and conservative among you have the right of your faith: cloning is corruptive, redemption of the fallen impossible.
If this is so, then what are we to say of you?
That you, corrupted, serve a God by the very means of sinning against Him? That you sacrifice your very souls to create His kingdom?
The scriptures speak of "paradise," but they do not necessarily speak of "heaven." Although some believe that the Kingdom of God and the paradise of the scriptures is some sort of alternate reality in which our souls will live once our bodies have perished, I personally believe that this is a later corruption, introduced into the faith tradition as means for the powerful to control the disenfranchised, marginalized, and oppressed.
Here's the thing - the body that passed through my mother's womb died many years ago, and I have difficulty believing that any technology, however advanced, has the capability to transport a soul. Therefor, I must either assume that I am dead and my soul has already gone to heaven or that there is no such thing as a soul and there is no heaven.
Like many who believe in incarnate divinity, I have chosen the latter. The Kingdom of God is not an alternate dimension, it is what exists in this reality when we follow the ways of God. Paradise is not a promised reward dangled in front of us do ensure good behavior (nor submission to a ruling class), it is what emerges when people live with compassion, freedom, and understanding.
In my theology, therefore, and the theology of many in the Ammatar Church, the business of "saving souls" is much less important than the business of protecting the well-being of living bodies. That is why I fight for freedom, for our promised Paradise is being stamped wherever pain, suffering, and injustice are inflicted upon the weak by the strong.
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Avan Morai
Amarr Derelik Patrol Wing
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Posted - 2010.02.23 00:09:00 -
[28]
Forgive the impudence in my reply, but indignation cannot stay my words here.
Four years ago my nephew Valerius Morai died for what he believed in, on his feet, not whining for his life or begging for mercy. We *can* die when the spirit cannot go on with a continued existence that would be a crime against our very nature and personality, and I see too many capsuleers these days who take this supposed 'immortality' for granted. Aside from technological glitches and errors due to machine deficiency, death comes to us all...eventually.
As for my thoughts on the theological end of things (I am NO priest *chuckles*), it has always been my view, despite only recently enrolling in the capsuleer program at Hedion University, that we, as capsuleers...no matter what faction or organization we fly and fight for...are all, every one of us, damned beyond all measurable means. We are mass murderers, we kill innocents by the thousand every day along with those we strive to defeat...it cannot be helped. It is the nature of the existence of a casuleer, living as we do, some of us in a state of perpetual war.
I do not consider what my eventual fate will be, nor should any pilot who believes that our work will achieve a just, or Holy end. Valerius went to his fate proudly, as any citizen of the Empire should. I will strive to follow his example, in my own way. My only prayer is to take as many heathens and unbelievers with me into oblivion as I can, that my fellow citizens left behind may enjoy the fruits of my labours. It is the legacy that matters!
Repent and submit to God's Will, I'll not think you weak
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Wheya
Amarr Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2010.02.23 10:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Samuel Cole Remember that the Sefrim abandoned Amash-Akura the moment he began to make war upon his neighbor.
Excerpt from Chapter I of the Epitoth in the Book of Scriptures:
The emperor saw that all was not good and summoned the sefrim and said unto them, The people are in great distress, what remedies doest thee have? And the sefrim answered, My Lord, the land has split against thou, thou must make war upon thy enemies to reclaim what is justly thine. And the emperor asked, Will thee aid us in this perilous endeavor? But the sefrim answered, No my Lord, we are here only to guide and guard, it is forbidden to us to aggress upon any man. Then be gone! The emperor said in anger, for his foes were formidable
Originally by: Samuel Cole The scriptures speak of "paradise," but they do not necessarily speak of "heaven."
Casting his sight on his realm, the Lord witnessed The cascade of evil, the torrents of war. Burning with wrath, He stepped down from the Heavens To judge the unworthy, To redeem the pure. -The Scriptures, Revelation Verses 2:12
The angelic Apostles of Heaven sing praises for their children! Our Lord smiles upon the world. Where the Emperor rules in his name Leading his people to glory untold. Hearken the trumpets of Heaven Hailing the people of Amarr. -- The Scriptures. Anoyia 17:21.
Surround yourself with the faithful, stand together, for there is no strength like it under the heavens. - The Scriptures, Book of Missions, 71:21
I will make no further comments as I see no need to argue with a minmatar expert from Star Fraction about amarrian religion. In all fairness I want to add that I do not connect his rubbish with the Ammatar Church.
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dibblebill
Beyond Our Sins
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Posted - 2010.02.23 13:08:00 -
[30]
What of the passages from the passages from the Apocrypha that state that all of the fallen can rise, for they are all equal in the eyes of your God? I forget the exact wording, and am well aware that most consider this book heretical, but it cannot, nonetheless, be overlooked entirely. *SPLUD* |
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