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Exie
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:36:00 -
[1]
So I keep hearing that the Deimos is not worth it for PvP, or anything really. Keep hearing get a Brutix or Thorax, simular DPS and tank for far less the cost. True or being trolled? E...
We be Jammin' |
Susy Assulu
Caldari Atomic Mexicans
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:37:00 -
[2]
Its true, the ship is overpriced and does nothing more than your average brutix can do.
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Leobon
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:11:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Leobon on 24/02/2010 20:11:24 I have seen people use this...... It leads to a nice 'lol wtf' mails. There is a reason its called the Diemost.
[Deimos, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge M [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:32:00 -
[4]
The Deimos is an okay ship in and of itself.
The problem with it, and the reason behind it's well-earned nickname of 'Diemost', are really with hybrid turrets.
Medium blasters, even with Null, TEs, and the Deimos' falloff bonus, don't give very good performance outside of web/scram range, and even inside of web/scram range using faction AM you don't get much, if any, DPS bonus over ACs or pulse lasers. Rail fits tend to fail because you end up short on grid and DPS although you get plenty of range. So what you end up with is a ship that is lackluster all-around because of its weapon system and that doesn't come close to jusitfying the 100+ Mil ISK pricetag.
If blasters were more useful (i.e. not grossly outperformed by ACs and pulse lasers) or larger rails easier to fit (i.e. buff the ship's base powergrid), the Deimos would be fine. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:43:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes ...
If blasters were 'more useful' it would still be 100m ship in scram range and brutix would still do the same job for 100m less.
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Mike712
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:45:00 -
[6]
If you tank the crap out of it you still get decent DPS but you won't die as much.
This has 80k EHP with overheated hardeners over 100k with slaves and still does close to 600 DPS.
[Deimos, Dieless] Damage Control II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Small Energy Neutralizer I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Bronson Hughes ...
If blasters were 'more useful' it would still be 100m ship in scram range and brutix would still do the same job for 100m less.
If everyone flew Harbies instead of Zealots or 'Canes instead of Muninns, I would agree with that statement. If blasters became really useful like pulse lasers or ACs, Deimoses would probably be easier to justify flying. Still not as usefull as a Zealot or a Muninn mind you, but moreso than they are now. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Bronson Hughes ...
If blasters were 'more useful' it would still be 100m ship in scram range and brutix would still do the same job for 100m less.
If everyone flew Harbies instead of Zealots or 'Canes instead of Muninns, I would agree with that statement. If blasters became really useful like pulse lasers or ACs, Deimoses would probably be easier to justify flying. Still not as usefull as a Zealot or a Muninn mind you, but moreso than they are now.
FYI, Zealots are not known because of their pulse fits and hardly anybody fly AC Muninns.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.02.24 21:51:00 -
[9]
Quote: FYI, Zealots are not known because of their pulse fits and hardly anybody fly AC Muninns.
Yep. Harbies do things Zealots can't, and vice versa. The Diemost offers practically nothing compared to a Brutix. _________________________________
Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.02.24 23:05:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 24/02/2010 23:05:49
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
The Diemost offers practically nothing compared to a Brutix.
cruiser sized signature ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.02.24 23:16:00 -
[11]
&threadIDPlease refer to my thoughts on the Diemost in this thread.
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Susy Assulu
Caldari Atomic Mexicans
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Posted - 2010.02.24 23:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Susy Assulu on 24/02/2010 23:21:41
Originally by: Slade Hoo Edited by: Slade Hoo on 24/02/2010 23:05:49
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
The Diemost offers practically nothing compared to a Brutix.
cruiser sized signature
So your going to pay quadruple the price for a slight reduction in signature?
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.02.25 00:27:00 -
[13]
About the cruiser sized sig: if I am not mistaking, the diemos has the largest sig of all cruisers.
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Ap0ll0n
Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.02.25 07:44:00 -
[14]
Get astarte instead.. Much better at the shield + nano thing..
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.02.25 14:54:00 -
[15]
The Vigilant is everything the Deimos should have been :( Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Ap0ll0n
Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.02.25 15:37:00 -
[16]
Deimos is kinda like the zealot; Long range combat. Its practically the same with Deimos and Zealot. Zealot are not really good close range with pulse, the Harbinger does it better. Same thing with Deimos and Brutix/Myrm. If you insure the Astarte, it costs the same as a Deimos, but has way better dps and survivability..
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Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.02.25 17:44:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Grut on 25/02/2010 17:44:43
Originally by: Stuart Price The Vigilant is everything the Deimos should have been :(
This really.
5/4/6 Check Non loltastic grid Check Bonus that makes it work (web) Check
A blaster deimos compares poorly to a brutix A nano deimos compares poorly to the vaga, zealot and nanoharb/cane A rail deimos probably the best use but held back by slots & suckyness of rails not to mention the beamzealot being far far better.
Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.25 17:59:00 -
[18]
None of the hacs can compare with battlecruisers in close range combat where speed and agility plays only little role. Why deimos should be able to do that?
Its sniper, worse than zealot or munnin, on par with eagle. Mostly because med rails are not very impressive weapons.
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2010.02.25 18:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Its sniper, worse than zealot or munnin, on par with eagle. Mostly because med rails are not very impressive weapons.
Sniper Deimoses are horrible compared to sniper Eagles at actual sniping. Sure they do more damage up close but once they have to switch to something other than Antimatter ammo, the Eagle starts to catch up to it; by the time a sniper Deimios has to switch to Spike (which is required to even get close to 100km range and even that's fighting in falloff) the Eagle is solidly outperforming it.
This and the fact that the Ishtar is a drone boat are the reasons why you almost never see Gallente HACs in sniper HAC gangs. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.02.25 18:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 None of the hacs can compare with battlecruisers in close range combat where speed and agility plays only little role. Why deimos should be able to do that?
Its sniper, worse than zealot or munnin, on par with eagle. Mostly because med rails are not very impressive weapons.
HACs are meant to be specialised. The vaga, ishtar, nanopulse zealt and sac are all ok.
The deimos fails as a general blasterboat and has no specialisation, therefore it sucks.
Its a shame really as you could do alot with it - how about low siggy, high dps in your face for a high tec cruiser? Would be limited in larger gangs but good in smaller ones.
5/4/6 + more grid, swap the mwd bonus for 7.5% tracking, cut the siggy to 80, abit more agility abit less mass.
What do you get? a cruiser that excels at getting under guns and dishing out some hurt. Its also seperate enough from the brutix that it doesnt get overwhelmed by it.
Worth the money? in alot of situations no but in the specific ones its designed for it rocks.
/rant Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
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arbalesttom
Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.02.25 18:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Grut
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 None of the hacs can compare with battlecruisers in close range combat where speed and agility plays only little role. Why deimos should be able to do that?
Its sniper, worse than zealot or munnin, on par with eagle. Mostly because med rails are not very impressive weapons.
HACs are meant to be specialised. The vaga, ishtar, nanopulse zealt and sac are all ok.
The deimos fails as a general blasterboat and has no specialisation, therefore it sucks.
Its a shame really as you could do alot with it - how about low siggy, high dps in your face for a high tec cruiser? Would be limited in larger gangs but good in smaller ones.
5/4/6 + more grid, swap the mwd bonus for 7.5% tracking, cut the siggy to 80, abit more agility abit less mass.
What do you get? a cruiser that excels at getting under guns and dishing out some hurt. Its also seperate enough from the brutix that it doesnt get overwhelmed by it.
Worth the money? in alot of situations no but in the specific ones its designed for it rocks.
/rant
I verry much like this idea! ***Sig***
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.25 18:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes ...
Antimatter in sniper gangs? lol Eagle is solidly outperforming it? It has better tracking and resists, on other hand its slower and has no defence vs tacklers. Damage is the same, but eagle has option to shoot to 160k. Both are worse than zealot /dps/ and munnin /alpha/. Also i dont care i dont see gallente hacs in sniper hac gangs. You can snipe with deimos, only with less efficiency.
Originally by: Grut ...
Vaga? Yes, perfect ship. Ishtar? Hm, will have hard time projecting dps vs competent and fast target, but yea, decent. Pulse zealot? So you say its better than harbi? Its not. Sac is so unimpresive with its low dps, range and speed. And other hacs? Eagle is even worse blasterboat than deimos /no ecm drones/, cerb is champion in delayed damage, absolutely useless as a short range boat. Munnin? Again unimpressive close range ship, good sniper.
Only roles that hacs have is 1. sniper role for zealot, munnin, eagle, cerb and deimos and 2. solo pvp ship for vaga and ishtar /sac? nah, cant be compared with vaga and ishtar/. Why giving the deimos new role when others dont have it?
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Onin Ra
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.02.25 19:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Why giving the deimos new role when others dont have it?
Why not? Maybe if Deimos gets his role, others will get theirs as well and the hac gangs wont look like - vaga/vaga/vaga/vaga/vaga/scimi/scimi/, zealot/zealot/zealot/zealot/zealot/zealot/guardian/guardian/ anymore? ;p --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.25 19:32:00 -
[24]
Ok, now think about new roles for 5 hacs so they will be worth flying. I bet most of that 'new roles' will involve guardians or scimis...
Btw i dont have anything against hacs, but i like that tier 2 bcs are so good - simply because they are so cheap.
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Onin Ra
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.02.25 19:56:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Ok, now think about new roles for 5 hacs so they will be worth flying. I bet most of that 'new roles' will involve guardians or scimis...
Btw i dont have anything against hacs, but i like that tier 2 bcs are so good - simply because they are so cheap.
Im not against BCs either, i just don't like vagabonds :P --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2010.02.25 20:14:00 -
[26]
I never flew a sniper HAC in PvP yet. So maybe I missed a valid point...anyhow I EFTd me a sniper Deimos and a sniper Zealot. Just for comparing and interest. Here my results for sniping at 100km with long range ammo:
[Zealot, Sniper Shield] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Fourier Transform I Tracking Program Fourier Transform I Tracking Program Fourier Transform I Tracking Program Signal Amplifier II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Invulnerability Field II <-- EM hardener maybe here Sensor Booster II
Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
---
[Deimos, Sniper Shield] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Signal Amplifier II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Invulnerability Field II
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M Auto Targeting System I <-- offline, just for 2 more targets...no idea what to fit else because of no grid and cpu
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
---
It's both a very tight fit. You'll need AWU5 for it.
Zealot: - 290DPS @107+17 km, 719 volley - Tracking: 0.0125 - Cap lasts 3m 34s with the MWD of, 1m 7s with MWD on - 12800 EHP - Speed: 1654 m/s - Lock range: 112 km - No drones
Deimos: - 219DPS @91+43 km, 824 volley - Tracking: 0.00852 - Cap is stable with the MWD of, lasts 2m with MWD on - 13550 EHP - Speed: 1657 m/s - Lock range: 105 km - 50m^3 drone bay and bandwith (option for 2 sentries for stationary sniping? if that makes any sense. Then 309 DPS (@Warden II optimal of 75km) - One tool slot, maybe useable with faction mods fitted instead of T2
Overall: - Zealot has 70 more DPS @16km better range - Deimos does 100 more volley damage, but only until 91km -> alpha is quite important while sniping I guess ^^ - Zealot is capless after max 3min - here's the main problem I see. So my Zealot fitting is actually kinda rubbish..and must be modified. Maybe the damage and range values are worse after it. - Deimos benefits from the MWD cap bonus. - Deimos has a nice additional utility by its drone bay
Yip, the Deimos could need a little better damage or range (or tracking). Maybe it's just because rails are a bit gimped. Rest seems nice imho. Especially the Deimos is more flexible. Must be Gallente
-
Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Meatypopsicle
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Posted - 2010.02.25 20:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Stuart Price The Vigilant is everything the Deimos should have been :(
This - I just wish they were the same price as a Gila rather than 2x the price.
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Emily Jean
Minmatar The Mongols
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Posted - 2010.02.25 22:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Pulse zealot? So you say its better than harbi? Its not.
Im glad people think this... Keeps getting me Harbi kills.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.25 22:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Emily Jean
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Pulse zealot? So you say its better than harbi? Its not.
Im glad people think this... Keeps getting me Harbi kills.
Yes, ofc .
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Dusica
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Posted - 2010.02.25 23:58:00 -
[30]
pulse zealot is better if it is not lol armor tank fit :)
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 None of the hacs can compare with battlecruisers in close range combat where speed and agility plays only little role. Why deimos should be able to do that?
Its sniper, worse than zealot or munnin, on par with eagle. Mostly because med rails are not very impressive weapons.
this
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Destructive Influence IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.26 08:53:00 -
[31]
yes your zelot fit sucks.
This is what I use when I fly Amarr (which is never on this character) -
3x HS 2x CPR 1x TE (this can be changed for whatever you feel you need, another CPR for more cap and so on) 1x DCU - 1x 10mn MWD 1x SB 1x TC -- 5x HBL -- 2x Locus rigs
its cap stable with the MWD off - and lasts 1 and 1/2 mins or so with the mwd on - and to be honest, you should only have to hit that MWD once in any fight. If you really want a buffer - then fit trimarks in the rigs and change that last low slot to a TE.
-----
The Diemost is a fun gank ship, but it does not do that well and to be honest Gallente pilots have a lot to complain about with regards to blasters.
-----------
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.02.26 17:34:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Stuart Price The Vigilant is everything the Deimos should have been :(
The interesting thing here is people usually perceive the deimos as subpar, useless and such, yet the vigilant shares exactly the same (perceived) weaknesses / problems, as in being instant primary, having to engage in web/scram range etc.
Either both of them are fine, or they are both useless.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.26 17:40:00 -
[33]
Both have the problem of needing to engage in scram/web range. However the vigilant actually has real advantages compared to a brutix.
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Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.02.26 18:11:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Stuart Price The Vigilant is everything the Deimos should have been :(
The interesting thing here is people usually perceive the deimos as subpar, useless and such, yet the vigilant shares exactly the same (perceived) weaknesses / problems, as in being instant primary, having to engage in web/scram range etc.
Either both of them are fine, or they are both useless.
Not at all.
Looking at the vigilant;
- 5/4/6 slot layout - pretty much optimal for armour tanking. - webbie strength bonus - awesome for a blasterboat for range control & tracking. - enough grid / cpu to fit a full rack of neutrons, mwd & 1600rt with 1 acr. - Nice DPS
Looking at the diemos - 6/3/6 - wasted highslot & lack of mids. - No real defining bonus mwd + falloff are meh - loltastic grid, requires electrons to tank. - Good dps gank rigged, any kind of tank and you should have brough a zealot.
Yes the Vigilant may not be cost effective but its a good blasterboat. A diemos is not cost effective AND its not a good blasterboat. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.26 18:55:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Grut Yes the Vigilant may not be cost effective but its a good blasterboat. A diemos is not cost effective AND its not a good blasterboat.
Amen.
Also the problem with the Diemost are not blasters, it is the ship concept itself. It simply does no offer anything that making it worth the price tag at close range, this didn't change in the last 4 years. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Ap0ll0n
Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.02.26 19:11:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Atius Tirawa yes your zelot fit sucks.
This is what I use when I fly Amarr (which is never on this character) -
3x HS 2x CPR 1x TE (this can be changed for whatever you feel you need, another CPR for more cap and so on) 1x DCU - 1x 10mn MWD 1x SB 1x TC -- 5x HBL -- 2x Locus rigs
its cap stable with the MWD off - and lasts 1 and 1/2 mins or so with the mwd on - and to be honest, you should only have to hit that MWD once in any fight. If you really want a buffer - then fit trimarks in the rigs and change that last low slot to a TE.
-----
The Diemost is a fun gank ship, but it does not do that well and to be honest Gallente pilots have a lot to complain about with regards to blasters.
Well at first, how are you gonna fit a Drone Control Unit to a zealot? And second, that fit aint much good.
[Zealot, Sniper] Power Diagnostic System II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction 10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
18mins of cap without mwd which is plenty.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.02.26 20:45:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 26/02/2010 20:49:40
Originally by: Grut
Looking at the vigilant;
- 5/4/6 slot layout - pretty much optimal for armour tanking. - webbie strength bonus - awesome for a blasterboat for range control & tracking. - enough grid / cpu to fit a full rack of neutrons, mwd & 1600rt with 1 acr. - Nice DPS
Yes, it got a web strength bonus, but thats pretty much it. The 1600mm plate fit is not significantly better than a triple trimarked 800mm fit anyway, plus you can have a cap injector that way to help out against the neuts that are so popular these days. A 2nd web might look good on paper, but in reality a single 90% web has already plenty of stopping power.
Originally by: Grut
Looking at the diemos - 6/3/6 - wasted highslot & lack of mids. - No real defining bonus mwd + falloff are meh - loltastic grid, requires electrons to tank. - Good dps gank rigged, any kind of tank and you should have brough a zealot.
That "wasted" highslot can fit a small remote repper, small neut, or some other module you deem useful. Neutron gank setup fits just fine with 800mm plates and ACR, and isnt as clumsy.
Apart from the web strength (which the deimos will never have, and is pretty much the worst idea on CCPs part ever to give a ship intended for pvp btw) there isnt really a huge difference in boni, except the deimos has better cap recharge.
And then there are the lovely t2 resists, which make remote repping a lot more effective.
Given the vigilant hull is twice as expensive, and both will be the first to die, my point still stands, there is no clear-cut reason to take either of them over a Brutix, except for camping a kickout station maybe.
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Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.02.26 21:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Yes, it got a web strength bonus, but thats pretty much it. The 1600mm plate fit is not significantly better than a triple trimarked 800mm fit anyway, plus you can have a cap injector that way to help out against the neuts that are so popular these days. A 2nd web might look good on paper, but in reality a single 90% web has already plenty of stopping power.
That "wasted" highslot can fit a small remote repper, small neut, or some other module you deem useful. Neutron gank setup fits just fine with 800mm plates and ACR, and isnt as clumsy.
Apart from the web strength (which the deimos will never have, and is pretty much the worst idea on CCPs part ever to give a ship intended for pvp btw) there isnt really a huge difference in boni, except the deimos has better cap recharge.
And then there are the lovely t2 resists, which make remote repping a lot more effective.
Given the vigilant hull is twice as expensive, and both will be the first to die, my point still stands, there is no clear-cut reason to take either of them over a Brutix, except for camping a kickout station maybe.
Pretty poor arguments.
A deimos lacks range control without the webbie, and cap stability as it can't fit a mid nos or cap booster. Small armour rep? wtf.
A Vigilant does the same dps as a brutix, is faster, aligns quicker, can totally dictate range, has a cap booster, gets a better tank with slaves, smaller siggy so takes less damage.
A brutix is ofc far cheaper.
Is the vigileant better in all situations? no. Is it better in some situations? yes. Is it a good ship for people with to much isk? sure.
Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2010.02.26 21:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Bronson Hughes ...
If blasters were 'more useful' it would still be 100m ship in scram range and brutix would still do the same job for 100m less.
Unlike a blaster brutix a Deimos still does useful damage outside outside scram range, the falloff bonus is pretty decent. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.26 21:48:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Apart from the web strength (which any blaster ship should have, and is pretty much the best idea on CCPs part ever to give a ship intended for close range pvp btw) there isn't really a huge difference in bonuses, except the deimost has better cap recharge.
I fixed this for you.
It's possible that if a blaster ship has a useful web that provides the ability to hold a target at the preferred range and get around tracking issues is considerable better at blaster PVP than a blaster ship that doesn't got this ability's.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.26 22:22:00 -
[41]
Quote: boni
Stop making up words, everytime someone writes boni or bonii god kills a kitten, and so do i.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.02.26 22:26:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Grut
A deimos lacks range control without the webbie, and cap stability as it can't fit a mid nos or cap booster. Small armour rep? wtf.
Who said anything about flying a deimos without web?
Cap stability is a non-issue even without nos or cap booster (mwd cap bonus), if you want safety against neuts fit a small nos instead of a small repper (which is kinda handy to rep up fleetmates when you have no npc stations around).
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.02.26 22:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: boni
Stop making up words, everytime someone writes boni or bonii god kills a kitten, and so do i.
I, too, kill a kitten. So make that three kittens.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.26 23:47:00 -
[44]
Edited by: The Djego on 26/02/2010 23:47:34
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: The Djego
I fixed this for you.
It's possible that if a blaster ship has a useful web that provides the ability to hold a target at the preferred range and get around tracking issues is considerable better at blaster PVP than a blaster ship that doesn't got this ability's.
No, you broke it. I can see people still shedding tears and wanting the days of OP webs back instead of adapting, it doesnt make it a good idea though.
Webs got nerfed for good reason, and no, even blaster boats are not supposed to win automatically inside their optimal range.
Yeah right, I to remember the tons of whining posts about OP blaster PVP that did lead to the QR nerf. Eve was full of plated point blank ships back in this days and anybody complained about them. I still wonder what this nano was anybody was talking about since it was this rare and limited in use that nobody used it compared to the massive amount of blaster ships owning anything since anybody was fitted to fight at point blank with non blaster ships. Also I'm really interested in this instant win thing, this does sound very overpowered, like the target itself deals zero DPS, got zero tank and zero EHP in blaster optimal and getting into range is easy since any other ship is slower, plus got a lot less range.
You really should write a thread about this, telling them all how good a instant win blaster ship is.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Onin Ra
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.02.27 00:43:00 -
[45]
if one more person writes "boni" or "rani" im gonna kill him. --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2010.02.27 03:13:00 -
[46]
A common denominator of the problems shared by the Cruiser sized Hybrid platforms and their weapon systems is that neither of them have the fitting options to capitalize on their bonuses...
... or are otherwise impaired to reap full effect from their ship bonuses, in how they are incompatible with the weapon system itself.
Downgrading tiers within your weapon class tend to affect range bonuses far more than other bonuses, as your bonuses stack against the comparison of the top tier weapon and the tier you are limited to.
The potentially half-decent 1600mm Blaster Deimos is forced to downgrade to Electrons and can't fill it's last highslot with a medium neut. It also can't really fit Rails with much options, and when it does it's falloff bonus is worthless, while with Blasters it remains fairly insignificant. The same goes for the Eagle, a double range bonus without much room to capitalize on it, while it has horrible fitting options. As a Sniper you are forced to choose between damage @ 100 optimals and/or giving up your range advantage. As a Blaster boat it will deal less damage with Blasters than an unbonused weapon system at common point ranges despite a double range bonus. You might as well fit lasers to it, and have optimal out to point range.
I know people in EVE are very touchy when it comes to balancing into similarities, they don't want everything to be "the same". Personally, i've always belived that similar is not the same, and that something can maintain a nische and flavour even if you broaden it's scope. In terms of engagement range, the changes there over the past year, or year and a half, has proven combat much more flexible and fluid with less extremes. Something i belive alot of people today consider fun. With that, i belive Blasters could get a touch up in both range and tracking. Range to tweak it into the current playing field and engagement ranges and tracking to maintain somewhat of a nische, for what is still a short-ranged weapon.
Blasters will still be the closest range weapon type, but i belive allowing the Hybrid ships with range bonuses to capitalize on them will weigh in better than ripping everything up and turning blasters into an extreme short range - high damage weapon system. That either makes or breaks, which won't change much of the current situation. With a slight touch up, they will still be the shortest unbonsed system. Yet if the Eagle could have an optimal up towards 25km and the Deimos getting a bit improved performance between optimal + falloff, in a mobile 25km + option to swoop in for high damage role - with slightly better tracking, they could be half decent ships. Especially if that involves being able to fit their weapon size of choice and fill their slots without stacking fitting mods, in both their short range and long range roles.
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Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.02.27 09:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
Blasters will still be the closest range weapon type, but i belive allowing the Hybrid ships with range bonuses to capitalize on them will weigh in better than ripping everything up and turning blasters into an extreme short range - high damage weapon system. That either makes or breaks, which won't change much of the current situation. With a slight touch up, they will still be the shortest unbonsed system. Yet if the Eagle could have an optimal up towards 25km and the Deimos getting a bit improved performance between optimal + falloff, in a mobile 25km + option to swoop in for high damage role - with slightly better tracking, they could be half decent ships. Especially if that involves being able to fit their weapon size of choice and fill their slots without stacking fitting mods, in both their short range and long range roles.
I don't disagree with you but by upping the range, blasters move into AC land, which isn't good.
Honestly an extra 10-15% damage on mediums and large followed by sorting out the hulls that just plain suck would be all thats required to give them enough of a damage difference from lasers/acs to make them worthwhile. 15% would give a shieldgank brutix 960 dps, big enough to be worth the travel time, and force ac/laser boats to kite.
On a wider note having base gun ranges as blasters/acs/lasers/lasers/acs/rails kind of messes of gal/caldari. If rails were lower range / higher dps then lasers gal would have a solid option as fights got bigger & caldari gunboats wouldnt suck asmuch.
Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
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