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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.01 14:38:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 01/03/2010 14:41:14
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** phantasm's role had always been mid range kiting with a tough tank.
a cynabal does the same thing only its tank is speed, you cant base how good a phantasm is at its role by comparing it to a different one.
Not realy cynabal has nearly as good shield tank as the phantasm,it also has more drones better dps, tracking,capless guns,choosable dmg types and the speed/agility to escape if things doesnt go well. So even if both use the same tactic cynabal does it way better.
And let's not forget about the Vigilant: a blaster ship does more damage than the Phantasm at the Phantasm's own 24km optimal, does insane dps up close, and has much better speed and agility. Sure, the tank is weaker, but do you really need tank with that much dps?
Originally by: God's Secret Zealot is capstable without booster genious... lmao
No it isn't. Come back when you have a clue about fitting?
Also, insults like that tend to work better when you can spell "genius". -----------
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God's Secret
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Posted - 2010.03.01 14:50:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 01/03/2010 14:41:14
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** phantasm's role had always been mid range kiting with a tough tank.
a cynabal does the same thing only its tank is speed, you cant base how good a phantasm is at its role by comparing it to a different one.
Not realy cynabal has nearly as good shield tank as the phantasm,it also has more drones better dps, tracking,capless guns,choosable dmg types and the speed/agility to escape if things doesnt go well. So even if both use the same tactic cynabal does it way better.
And let's not forget about the Vigilant: a blaster ship does more damage than the Phantasm at the Phantasm's own 24km optimal, does insane dps up close, and has much better speed and agility. Sure, the tank is weaker, but do you really need tank with that much dps?
Originally by: God's Secret Zealot is capstable without booster genious... lmao
No it isn't. Come back when you have a clue about fitting?
Also, insults like that tend to work better when you can spell "genius".
I hear spelling arguments are the best arguments.. also.. fit 5 Heavy Pulses/Beams and an MWD which is off and let me know when the cap drains..
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.01 14:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: God's Secret MWD which is off
This is your problem.
Hint to the clueless: if you're flying a HAC correctly in small gangs, your MWD is on. Quoting cap stability with the MWD off is about as relevant as talking about the mining yield of a carrier (yes, mine has a few mining drones). -----------
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God's Secret
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Posted - 2010.03.01 15:08:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: God's Secret MWD which is off
This is your problem.
Hint to the clueless: if you're flying a HAC correctly in small gangs, your MWD is on. Quoting cap stability with the MWD off is about as relevant as talking about the mining yield of a carrier (yes, mine has a few mining drones).
If you actually had a clue about what is discussed here you would understand why that MWD is off Let me help you, the Phantasm fit being discussed on the first page, isn't cap stable even with MWD off, also.. i have more kills in a Zealot then you have total kills in your entire eve career, and my main is a few months younger then you..
Quote: talking about the mining yield of a carrier (yes, mine has a few mining drones)
I'm not surprized..
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.01 15:20:00 -
[35]
Originally by: God's Secret If you actually had a clue about what is discussed here you would understand why that MWD is off
Sorry, wrong again, but thanks for trying. If you're flying a Zealot or Phantasm in a small gang, you have your MWD on permanently to stay at your 20+km optimal and out of web/scram range. Cap stability with the MWD off is absolutely irrelevant, because you are never in combat with your MWD off.
Quote: Let me help you, the Phantasm fit being discussed on the first page, isn't cap stable even with MWD off
And a random failfit with no cap booster is relevant, why exactly? How about instead of discussing failfits, we talk about good Phantasm fits like the one I posted?
Quote: , also.. i have more kills in a Zealot then you have total kills in your entire eve career, and my main is a few months younger then you..
That's nice. I don't use killboards. Feel free to brag about yours though, it amuses me. -----------
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Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.03.01 15:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Sorry, wrong again, but thanks for trying. If you're flying a Zealot or Phantasm in a small gang, you have your MWD on permanently to stay at your 20+km optimal and out of web/scram range. Cap stability with the MWD off is absolutely irrelevant, because you are never in combat with your MWD off.
wow....no wait.... WOW
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God's Secret
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Posted - 2010.03.01 15:35:00 -
[37]
Quote: Cap stability with the MWD off is absolutely irrelevant, because you are never in combat with your MWD off.
I won't elaborate on this to much as it will take to long, but is basically false, and if you do have a clue about pvp you already now that, you won't need to perma run MWD on any laser boats to keep range the same way you don't permarun mwd on a vaga or a cane for example to keep range, that besides the fact that you won't hit hit most things orbiting at 20km with mwd on in a Zealot or Harby or whatever..
Quote: And a random failfit with no cap booster is relevant, why exactly? How about instead of discussing failfits, we talk about good Phantasm fits like the one I posted?
Aye, that's not a failfit, but that ship will still not be able to hold a candle to any of the other pirate cruisers.. which is exactly my point, little wrong with the fit, lots of issues with the ship..
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.03.01 15:41:00 -
[38]
Originally by: God's Secret
Quote: Cap stability with the MWD off is absolutely irrelevant, because you are never in combat with your MWD off.
I won't elaborate on this to much as it will take to long, but is basically false, and if you do have a clue about pvp you already now that, you won't need to perma run MWD on any laser boats to keep range the same way you don't permarun mwd on a vaga or a cane for example to keep range, that besides the fact that you won't hit hit most things orbiting at 20km with mwd on in a Zealot or Harby or whatever..
That's idiotic. If a Vaga needed to permarun its MWD to keep range (IT DOESNT), and if a laser ship trying to stay at range was slower than a Vagabond (IT IS), then the laser ship would have to have its MWD on more, not less.
You need your MWD on all the time in a slow ass laser ship if you're trying to kite because you can bet your ass the other guy is either trying to burn towards you to melt your face or away from you to try to stop you from melting his. ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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God's Secret
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Posted - 2010.03.01 15:52:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: God's Secret
Quote: Cap stability with the MWD off is absolutely irrelevant, because you are never in combat with your MWD off.
I won't elaborate on this to much as it will take to long, but is basically false, and if you do have a clue about pvp you already now that, you won't need to perma run MWD on any laser boats to keep range the same way you don't permarun mwd on a vaga or a cane for example to keep range, that besides the fact that you won't hit hit most things orbiting at 20km with mwd on in a Zealot or Harby or whatever..
That's idiotic. If a Vaga needed to permarun its MWD to keep range (IT DOESNT), and if a laser ship trying to stay at range was slower than a Vagabond (IT IS), then the laser ship would have to have its MWD on more, not less.
You need your MWD on all the time in a slow ass laser ship if you're trying to kite because you can bet your ass the other guy is either trying to burn towards you to melt your face or away from you to try to stop you from melting his.
I'm getting tired of this ****, read the whole ****ing thread you ****..
Quote: Sorry, wrong again, but thanks for trying. If you're flying a Zealot or Phantasm in a small gang, you have your MWD on permanently to stay at your 20+km optimal and out of web/scram range. Cap stability with the MWD off is absolutely irrelevant, because you are never in combat with your MWD off.
It's about small gang not solo pvp, if you're fit for kiting you're suposedly no longer a 'slow ass laser ship' or atleast you're supposedly smart enough to chose targets that you can actually kite.. besides the fact that you just don't go solo roaming in a Zealot, and most other laser boats if you own half a brain..
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.01 16:18:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 01/03/2010 16:21:45
Originally by: God's Secret that besides the fact that you won't hit hit most things orbiting at 20km with mwd on in a Zealot or Harby or whatever..
Hint to the clueless: you don't have to orbit. Learn to use "keep at range" and manual piloting.
And I don't know why this perma-run MWD thing is so complicated. You have a desired engagement range X. Your target(s) have a desired range of Y, which is not likely to be the same as X.
If you are at range Y, you need to run your MWD and get to range X ASAP.
If you are at range X, your opponent needs to run their MWD to attempt to get to range Y, which means you need to run your MWD to prevent them from doing so.
If you are at neither range, you both need to run your MWDs.
No matter what the situation, at least one person wants to run their MWD, forcing the other to run their MWD to counter. The MWD goes on when you enter combat, and doesn't turn off until combat ends. Adding more ships to the fight does not change this fundamental fact (up until larger gangs of sniper ships where the Phantasm has no role), it just means you tend to do more manual piloting.
Any exceptions to the rule are limited enough that assuming 100% MWD time is a good approximation. If your cap is dead within a minute of turning on a MWD, your ship is a failfit. -----------
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Van Steiza
Battlestars Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.03.01 16:26:00 -
[41]
You wont need to permananly run it...
Assuming your going for a BC or higher and some cruisers to keep the 23 to 30km range depending on what kinda of point longrage/faction etc.
You may only need to pulse every few seconds to maintain that range.
yes sometimes you need to run the mwd for extended periods but usualy pulsing is enough to keep range while shooting them down.
----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.01 16:32:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 01/03/2010 16:33:06
Originally by: Van Steiza yes sometimes you need to run the mwd for extended periods but usualy pulsing is enough to keep range while shooting them down.
The problem is the pulses end up being very close to perma-running as far as cap stability is concerned. If you can pulse it enough to do the job, you're probably fitting a cap booster and can perma-run it anyway.
Worse than that, lacking cap stability is a huge restriction. Why would you want to limit yourself to only non-Hurricane BCs and slower (and leave yourself screwed if your target has a friend in a cruiser) when you can so easily get the perma-run the MWD and have that tool available even if you don't absolutely need it in some fights? -----------
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.03.01 16:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin up until larger gangs of sniper ships
And 3/4 of zealots are in fact beam snipers. Thats why you dont usually fit cap booster to zealot.
Phantasm is 24k kiter /no need for faction point on such unimpressive ship/, its slow and it engages in heavy neut range = needs cap booster to basically perma mwd.
So many posts because of one phantasm 'you dont need cap booster in gang' lolfit.
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Kendon Riddick
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Posted - 2010.03.01 16:57:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** phantasm's role had always been mid range kiting with a tough tank.
a cynabal does the same thing only its tank is speed, you cant base how good a phantasm is at its role by comparing it to a different one.
Not realy cynabal has nearly as good shield tank as the phantasm,it also has more drones better dps, tracking,capless guns,choosable dmg types and the speed/agility to escape if things doesnt go well. So even if both use the same tactic cynabal does it way better.
cynabal has better dps when its under 5km, cynabals do not ever get that close, they are 15-20km heavy tacklers which use speed to maintain their range advantage. A phantasm is more of a kite-at-your-piont range type ship and at these ranges it does significantly more dps than a cyna, only it has the better tank to make up for its slower speed.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:01:00 -
[45]
I misread, apologies.
u mad, bro? ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:17:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** cynabal has better dps when its under 5km, cynabals do not ever get that close, they are 15-20km heavy tacklers which use speed to maintain their range advantage. A phantasm is more of a kite-at-your-piont range type ship and at these ranges it does significantly more dps than a cyna, only it has the better tank to make up for its slower speed.
The Cynabal also has better dps at 20km. In fact, it out-damages the Phantasm at ALL ranges. -----------
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God's Secret
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:21:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Terianna Eri I misread, apologies.
u mad, bro?
Nah, just tired of talking about vagas and harbies and zealots and whatever **** in a thread about the Phantasm.. and bored by this pseudo Bellum aka Merin Ryskin.. Sorry for the abuse
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Kendon Riddick
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:27:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** cynabal has better dps when its under 5km, cynabals do not ever get that close, they are 15-20km heavy tacklers which use speed to maintain their range advantage. A phantasm is more of a kite-at-your-piont range type ship and at these ranges it does significantly more dps than a cyna, only it has the better tank to make up for its slower speed.
The Cynabal also has better dps at 20km. In fact, it out-damages the Phantasm at ALL ranges.
i fly both, im very sure you are incorrect, unless you are using gyros on the cyna and no heat sinks on the phantasm.
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God's Secret
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:32:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kendon Rid****
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** cynabal has better dps when its under 5km, cynabals do not ever get that close, they are 15-20km heavy tacklers which use speed to maintain their range advantage. A phantasm is more of a kite-at-your-piont range type ship and at these ranges it does significantly more dps than a cyna, only it has the better tank to make up for its slower speed.
The Cynabal also has better dps at 20km. In fact, it out-damages the Phantasm at ALL ranges.
i fly both, im very sure you are incorrect, unless you are using gyros on the cyna and no heat sinks on the phantasm.
As much as i dislike agreeing with him, he's correct, a 2 x Gyro Cynabal will outdamage a 2 x HeatSink Phantasm at any ranges.. while still having the powergrid to fit a medium neut, a simmilar shield buffer, better speed and agility, superb tracking and some ecm drones on standby just incase..
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:39:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Lugalzagezi666 on 01/03/2010 17:41:15
Originally by: God's Secret Nah, just tired of talking about vagas and harbies and zealots and whatever **** in a thread about the Phantasm.. and bored by this pseudo Bellum aka Merin Ryskin
Yes, its completely crazy to compare discussed ship with others to evaluate its current performance. E: You do realize its stealth buff phantasm thread /maybe even not so stealth lol/?
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** i fly both, im very sure you are incorrect, unless you are using gyros on the cyna and no heat sinks on the phantasm.
Depends on fit /drones used/, for cookie cutter fits id say phantasm has a narrow window /lets say 20-24/ where it projects more dps than cynabal /ignoring tracking or damage type/.
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God's Secret
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:48:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: God's Secret Nah, just tired of talking about vagas and harbies and zealots and whatever **** in a thread about the Phantasm.. and bored by this pseudo Bellum aka Merin Ryskin
Yes, its completely crazy to compare discussed ship with others to evaluate its current performance.
Such subtle sarcasm.. only not, cause well.. most of the posts above this have very little to do with comparing discussed ship with others to evaluate its current performance(not that i didn't contribute to the derailment).. I wouldn't have had any issue with that..
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God's Secret
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:56:00 -
[52]
Quote: E: You do realize its stealth buff phantasm thread /maybe even not so stealth lol/?
Aye, it does need a buff, a sensible one, a few options were mentioned in the TSF thread, where is made obvious the ship is lacking a slot compared to the rest of the pirate cruisers, all have 10 meds+lows except the Ashimmu which gets the 3 utility slots with bonused neuts/nos for them, and ofc the Phantasm which gets nothing.. The Succubus is in a simmilar situation but deserves a separate thread.. maybe it won't take a few years this time to bring the ships in line with the rest in their class..
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:02:00 -
[53]
Originally by: God's Secret
Quote: E: You do realize its stealth buff phantasm thread /maybe even not so stealth lol/?
Aye, it does need a buff, a sensible one, a few options were mentioned in the TSF thread, where is made obvious the ship is lacking a slot compared to the rest of the pirate cruisers, all have 10 meds+lows except the Ashimmu which gets the 3 utility slots with bonused neuts/nos for them, and ofc the Phantasm which gets nothing.. The Succubus is in a simmilar situation but deserves a separate thread.. maybe it won't take a few years this time to bring the ships in line with the rest in their class..
Saidly it will take years :( I see why some ppl against it they just dont want any other ship come close near their cynabals effectiveness.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:12:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Naomi Knight I see why some ppl against it they just dont want any other ship come close near their cynabals effectiveness.
I don't know that this is a fair comment. But I would like to see my beautiful phantasm boosted. Something like this should fit:
Phantasm 5x Heavy Pulse II 10mn MWD II, Med Cap Booster II, Disruptor II, Web II, LSE II, Invuln II 3x HS II 3 CDFE 5 Warrior II
Same bonuses (5% tracking, 5% damage, 100% damage role bonus).
If we're going to make it such a one trick pony (nothing but damage - not even range) can we at least do that part of it right? Thanks.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Hesperius
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:19:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Hesperius on 01/03/2010 18:21:48
Originally by: Liang Nuren 5x Heavy Pulse II
Oh that would be fun. 700-900 dps CRUISERS. HAHA!
*edit ahhh you beat me before i could fix my dps
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:20:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Hesperius
Originally by: Liang Nuren 5x Heavy Pulse II
Oh that would be fun. 800 dps CRUISERS. HAHA!
Ok, fine, 4 and a medium neut. ;-) But I still prefer the 5 HP II!
-Liang
-- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:35:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Hesperius Edited by: Hesperius on 01/03/2010 18:21:48
Originally by: Liang Nuren 5x Heavy Pulse II
Oh that would be fun. 700-900 dps CRUISERS. HAHA!
*edit ahhh you beat me before i could fix my dps
vigilant does that much, so if the phantasm came out at somthing more like 700/750 faction stuff that might make it worth its slowness, but id then fly a nanoed version doing the normal 400-500.
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Hesperius
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:41:00 -
[58]
Yeah 4x turrets would be good. I am pretty happy with my phantasm, but if it either got a shield boosting bonus (so no need for a bil isk shield booster to make it shine) or another turret slot, I think it would put the faction into it.
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Ashira Twilight
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:41:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Hesperius Edited by: Hesperius on 01/03/2010 18:21:48
Originally by: Liang Nuren 5x Heavy Pulse II
Oh that would be fun. 700-900 dps CRUISERS. HAHA!
*edit ahhh you beat me before i could fix my dps
There was a cynabal pilot in local the other day, that owned me, talking about his 700dps...of course, I understand that he was well into falloff and couldn't be doing that at those ranges...but it sure did feel like 700dps. = (
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Hesperius
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:50:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dr Fighter vigilant does that much...
But you have to be in the kamikaze death zone to get that DPS, which IMO you'd have to be crazy to do in a faction cruiser.
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