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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2010.03.05 20:55:00 -
[1]
Dust off your capsules, capsuleers! It's time to prepare for Alliance Tournament VIII, and CCP Claw's newest dev blog has all the great information you need to know to take part in the biggest, best and baddest tournament yet!
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub
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Posted - 2010.03.05 20:58:00 -
[2]
Sweet.
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Evilan Altana
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.05 21:53:00 -
[3]
The rules still say two ships of any type instead of three.
Also hurray!
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.03.05 21:58:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Nova Fox on 05/03/2010 21:58:26 How are flagships going to factor into this? are they just going to be bonus points keeping alive? or killing? Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 24FEB10
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Ix Forres
Caldari Vanguard Frontiers Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:07:00 -
[5]
Sounds good. On a side note, bonus points to the team with the least pronounceable flagship name...
Will we be getting the live feed in a non-Windows-Media format this year, preferably on a CDN that can handle it with an open format that the community can relay? Would be great to have. -- Ix Forres EVE Application Developer EVE Metrics | accVIEW | I Tweet |
ollopa amnihs
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:25:00 -
[6]
Edited by: ollopa amnihs on 05/03/2010 22:28:42 I'd like a clarification.
Quote: Well, the first major change is that pilots may only compete on behalf of alliances that they have been members of for a minimum of 60 days before the beginning of the tournament. Much like real life sports events, this creates a ætransfer window' and will curtail some of the more undesirable methods of player-switching that sometimes take place in tournament teams.
First and foremost is 60 days within a given alliance the 60 days immediately prior to the tournament, 60 days in total before the tournament, etc. I strongly encourage the former, as this would unduly prejudice mercenaries. Secondly, if a corporation joins an alliance, is it done from the date the person has joined said corporation, or the date of the alliance joined date.
While the rules might be designed to discourage selling of alliance slots, it should not be wielded against more dynamic forms of alliances.
I respectfully look forward to a favorable answer.
Edit: I'd also like to include an additional question, is there a way the rules can be drawn so as to not prejudice neutral remote rep alts.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:29:00 -
[7]
Very cool. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
ElvenLord
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CCP Claw The CSM brought this idea up also without it being mentioned, and since we were both on the same page it became a final decision.
I'm glad we where on the same page and for you going trough with most suggestions we had
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ElvenLord
Originally by: CCP Claw The CSM brought this idea up also without it being mentioned, and since we were both on the same page it became a final decision.
I'm glad we where on the same page and for you going trough with most suggestions we had
Has to be the fastest implementation of a CSM suggestion ever. Glad I could be a small part of AT8 in the end
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.05 22:46:00 -
[10]
Looks fun. :)
___
Latest video: War Has Come (720p) |
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Taedrin
Gallente The Green Cross DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2010.03.05 23:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 05/03/2010 21:58:26 How are flagships going to factor into this? are they just going to be bonus points keeping alive? or killing?
I'm going to second this question: What is the point to having a flagship? IE, what advantage does a team with a flagship have over a team without one? ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Mashie Saldana
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.03.05 23:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Taedrin I'm going to second this question: What is the point to having a flagship? IE, what advantage does a team with a flagship have over a team without one?
Better selection of modules.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.03.06 00:47:00 -
[13]
auction your way in....
I just threw up a bit
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.03.06 00:57:00 -
[14]
ONE Armour Repairer or Shield Booster
lol sucks for armor tankers.
and never understood the "5. Unused points will be added to the opponents score." rule
also might wanna updated the "3. Teams may field no more than 2 of a given ship. This applies to specifically named ships only, and not ship hulls. For example, 2 Curses, 2 Pilgrims, and 2 Arbitrators would be legal."
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.03.06 01:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton auction your way in....
I just threw up a bit
Would you rather more people rolled Alt Alliances just to get in via the random draw like last time?
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.03.06 02:59:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
and never understood the "5. Unused points will be added to the opponents score." rule
This one is pretty simple when you think about it.
A team scores based on the value of opponent ships killed (plus 25% bonus for a win). Thus it would be possible to grief your opponent by bringing say 80 points to the match instead of the full 100. To stop this any points not spent on ships were simply added to your opponent's score (thus always allowing a max 125 points for a complete clearance win).
We can argue about griefing being a legitimate tactic in eve, but for the purposes of the tourney doing it this way isn't possible
Now the twist this time is being able to deliberately bring less ships to gain a bonus if you win.
Back to our 80 point team example. You bring 80 points, your opponent brings 100. Your opponent gets 20 points automatically which is the same as before. However if you win the match you will score 100 points from the ships killed, plus 20 points from the "handicap" and then the 25% bonus.
This will really shake up the middle of the rankings and could allow a brave team who lost their first match to gain a place in finals weekend by "nerfing" themselves.
Note that it is only relevant to the qualifiers because finals weekend is single elimination.
Hope that helps
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2010.03.06 03:29:00 -
[17]
Interesting idea. Does the flagship have to be T1 or faction? Can a marauder or black ops battleship not be designated as the flagship?
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Gil Danastre
Amarr Aeon Of Strife Discord.
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Posted - 2010.03.06 04:31:00 -
[18]
Yeah you may want to clear up the whole flagship thing. It's just kinda there in the devblog with no explanation. +1 for almost making me think you were adding a new class of ship for the tourny though :P
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Kristel Elke
Amarr Point of No Return Waterboard
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Posted - 2010.03.06 04:40:00 -
[19]
ok, flagships make no sense? why in gods name would you want to let your opponent know what you are fielding (being able to faction fit, and other good stuff aside)
frankly, this makes absolutely no sense aside from the fact that .. "hey, I have a guardian vexor.. and it's my flagship and I have big c$*k"..
now.. if I saw a guardian vexor fielded in a fight.. I would primary the thing at the detriment of the tournament.. just to say I killed a guardian vexor, and lose the match, but I killed a 10B ship... or whatever.
i don't know maybe I don't see the point of this thing.. someone needs to enlighten me perhaps.
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Valea Silpha
Koalition of Dacnomaniacz Interstellar Forces
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Posted - 2010.03.06 06:49:00 -
[20]
Let joy be unconfined. The rich once again get to dominate the tournament.
The slot auction is a horrible. The rich cruise through, everyone else gets a 1 in what 100 ? 200? chance of showing up. Great. Really gives the smaller alliances a chance to show their mettle doesn't it.
And the flagships pretty much does the same thing. Its a MUCH greater advantage to those with a near limitless budget than it is for those without one. Estamel rattlers to the big boys, navy heat sinks for the poor. Sounds fair. In the past you've always at least be bound by the abilities of tech 2 and the odd faction ship. So a vague ceiling on damage, and a pretty solid ceiling on tank. But what do you bring when you know the other guy could potentially bring something that can tank 4k and do 2k dps and 400k ehp even without a logistics (or indeed 'team') to back it up.
Sure its beatable, but how do you bring a team that can crack a supertanked death machine, and can still perform well against anything else ? The threat of such a ship is enough to guarantee that the opposition has to fit in a certain way, which gives an obvious advantage to any team that possess them.
Seriously... well done for making Eve even more about the iskies.
Oh and anyone who wants an extra body for their tournament team, or some expert team analysis, mail me in game No win, no fee.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
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Holy Cheater
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2010.03.06 08:53:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Holy Cheater on 06/03/2010 08:55:37 What about tech 2 rigs on flagships? Will they be allowed?
Quote:
All flagships must be given an appropriate name
What name is "appropriate"?
Quote:
*16 slots will be reserved for the top 16 teams from the previous Alliance Tournament
What if the team is in another alliance?
Update: Why publish flagship fittings? What about suddenness effect?
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Real Poison
Minmatar Stormlord Battleforce Vanguard.
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Posted - 2010.03.06 09:00:00 -
[22]
about the "auctioning": I HATE THE IDEA! and that even before you told us the specific rules.
why not go and blatantly ask your billing departement or the QEN guy about what alliances are responsible for the most money earned in means of subscriptions and PLEX (SELECT TOP(16) .... ORDER BY isk DESC).
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.03.06 09:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: TeaDaze
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
and never understood the "5. Unused points will be added to the opponents score." rule
This one is pretty simple when you think about it.
A team scores based on the value of opponent ships killed (plus 25% bonus for a win). Thus it would be possible to grief your opponent by bringing say 80 points to the match instead of the full 100. To stop this any points not spent on ships were simply added to your opponent's score (thus always allowing a max 125 points for a complete clearance win).
We can argue about griefing being a legitimate tactic in eve, but for the purposes of the tourney doing it this way isn't possible
Now the twist this time is being able to deliberately bring less ships to gain a bonus if you win.
Back to our 80 point team example. You bring 80 points, your opponent brings 100. Your opponent gets 20 points automatically which is the same as before. However if you win the match you will score 100 points from the ships killed, plus 20 points from the "handicap" and then the 25% bonus.
This will really shake up the middle of the rankings and could allow a brave team who lost their first match to gain a place in finals weekend by "nerfing" themselves.
Note that it is only relevant to the qualifiers because finals weekend is single elimination.
Hope that helps
I think you should get points for ships killed or 100 points for killing all ships and then a maybe 25% bonus for a total helldeath
ah well, I guess the handicap bonus makes up for it.
and I thought it was funny (in a stupid way) when idle was totalhelldeath'd by the gallente militia and came away with 1 point
as for alt alliances just to try and get in... did people really do that
and at least this time around there is a membership length requirement, can't just hop to participate the week of
but honestly I'd rather not see it limited to only 64 teams if there is sufficient demand for another branch, or another few teams per division. probably at least put a few 100 member minimum on alliance size
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.03.06 10:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Valea Silpha Let joy be unconfined. The rich once again get to dominate the tournament.
How many times have we seen a rich Alliance lose to a bunch of "nobodies". It happens fairly regularly.
Originally by: Valea Silpha The slot auction is a horrible. The rich cruise through, everyone else gets a 1 in what 100 ? 200? chance of showing up. Great. Really gives the smaller alliances a chance to show their mettle doesn't it.
If you look at the numbers from AT7 it is more like a 50% chance of getting in on the random draw.
Last time just under 100 teams applied for the 64 slots. Of those teams around 10-15 were "Alt" Alliances of the bigger Alliances created specifically to improve the chances of the team participating.
From that list, 64 teams were picked with 10 more reserves. In the end only 63 of those 74 teams actually turned up which is why Noir got called in just 2 hours before their first match.
Lets assume 100 teams apply (similar to last year). Also assume around 10 of the top 16 teams will return (due to teams changing Alliance etc). 16 more will pay well over the odds for a spot. That leaves around 38 random draw slots for the remaining 74 teams. Still a 50% chance to get in for smaller Alliances.
Originally by: Valea Silpha And the flagships pretty much does the same thing. Its a MUCH greater advantage to those with a near limitless budget than it is for those without one. Estamel rattlers to the big boys, navy heat sinks for the poor.
Read the rules, there is a limit to the faction modules allowed. For example faction hardeners are not shown in the list of allowed modules.
* All Highslot Modules (not including remote armour repair modules, remote shield transfer modules, or cloaking devices) * Electronic Warfare Modules * Weapon Upgrade Modules * ONE Armour Repairer or Shield Booster
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton but honestly I'd rather not see it limited to only 64 teams if there is sufficient demand for another branch, or another few teams per division. probably at least put a few 100 member minimum on alliance size
At CSM one of the things discussed with Claw was Alliance size limits, but we agreed that it would be a bad idea because some of the best Tourney teams have been from smaller Alliances.
As to the number of teams in the tourney many people tried to come up with ways to handle more teams but in the end as I said above it wasn't needed.
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Kirianna Schmitt
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Posted - 2010.03.06 11:10:00 -
[25]
Quote from the AT8 rules: "3. Teams may field no more than 2 of a given ship. This applies to specifically named ships only, and not ship hulls. For example, 2 Curses, 2 Pilgrims, and 2 Arbitrators would be legal."
shouldn't this be 3 like mentioned in the DevBlog?
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.03.06 11:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kirianna Schmitt Quote from the AT8 rules: "3. Teams may field no more than 2 of a given ship. This applies to specifically named ships only, and not ship hulls. For example, 2 Curses, 2 Pilgrims, and 2 Arbitrators would be legal."
shouldn't this be 3 like mentioned in the DevBlog?
Yes
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2010.03.06 14:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: TeaDaze
How many times have we seen a rich Alliance lose to a bunch of "nobodies". It happens fairly regularly.
Thats kinda of the point. So say theres 64 slots again, and 16 are from last years tournie, and 16 are sold, theres now only 32 slots left for anyone else. Assuming the same number of teams apply, you are now half as likely to participate than last year purely because you got rolled against last year, or don't own a bundle of moon goo.
Assuming you can't accommodate everyone who applies, then everyone bar last years champions should have an equal chance of competing. That's fair. My alliance, your alliance, that guys alliance, all of us are as likely to be showing up this year.
The biggest problem with this system is that it means that its now even harder than ever for normal people to participate in the tournament. The big alliances have a 'cream' of fcs and hardcore long term pvpers that will be assumed to 'the team' even before they start talking about, so even if I go bang on PL's door, top the killbaord every week until the tournament, including soloing a three large death star POS, a dread, two titans and rorqual each week, theres no way in hell I can knock off someone who has been flying with PL since the beginning because we all know that's how these things work.
Originally by: TeaDaze
Read the rules, there is a limit to the faction modules allowed. For example faction hardeners are not shown in the list of allowed modules.
* All Highslot Modules (not including remote armour repair modules, remote shield transfer modules, or cloaking devices) * Electronic Warfare Modules * Weapon Upgrade Modules * ONE Armour Repairer or Shield Booster
Hint: There's more officer junk than just invul fields man, and all of it is WAY above an average alliances budget. Between officer turrets and damage mods alone you are looking at ~40% more DPS. Same for tank compared to t2. This is exactly my point. There is no way the poorer alliances ever would put out a decked out flagship, (some even have problems putting out t3 because they depend upon members bringing their own ships)while having to deal with the imminent (and big) problem of having to kill one. If you HAD to bring your flagship, then fine whatever, you know what you have to deal with. But since you can just not bring it throughout the entire tournament, you can force anyone who fights you to bring racial jammers, neuts, specific damage type weapons or a bundle of other stuff, just by posting a ludicrous fit on the forums, then bring a different race, capless guns and tanks with a different damage hole, giving you an easy win. I don't see how this can not happen.
Woo metagaming.
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.03.06 17:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 06/03/2010 14:57:23
Originally by: TeaDaze
If you look at the numbers from AT7 it is more like a 50% chance of getting in on the random draw.
Thats kinda of the point. So say theres 64 slots again, and 16 are from last years tournie, and 16 are sold, theres now only 32 slots left for anyone else. Assuming the same number of teams apply, you are now half as likely to participate than last year purely because you got rolled against last year, or don't own a bundle of moon goo.
Erm, did you even run the numbers on that or did you just pull that out of thin air.
100 teams last time (was about 97, rounding up), around 12 took reserved slots from top 16 finishes. So 88 teams trying to get one of 52 places - 59% chance of getting in via the random draw.
My example above ends up with around 50% chance of getting in via the random draw with the same number of applications.
So it is not half as likely at all and without all the "moon goo" Alliances applying with 2 or 3 teams this year I suspect the odds will work out even better.
Originally by: Katarlia Simov Assuming you can't accommodate everyone who applies, then everyone bar last years champions should have an equal chance of competing. That's fair. My alliance, your alliance, that guys alliance, all of us are as likely to be showing up this year.
People still have the chance to get in via the random draw, there is just another option for people wanting to pay over the odds for their place instead of as happened last time stuffing the draw with "fake" alliances.
Originally by: Katarlia Simov On top of that, this system means that its now even harder than ever for normal people to participate in the tournament. The big alliances have a 'cream' of fcs and hardcore long term pvpers that will be assumed to 'the team' even before they start talking about, so even if I go bang on PL's door, top the killbaord every week until the tournament, including soloing a three large death star POS, a dread, two titans and rorqual each week, theres no way in hell I can knock off someone who has been flying with PL since the beginning because we all know that's how these things work.
You undermine your own arguement. Why would we not want to watch the very best PVPers in eve fighting it out?
Originally by: Katarlia Simov Since you mention Noir btw, lets case study:
They are certainly acknowledged as being pretty good at the pewpew but they are cash poor (to the best of my knowledge anyway... I wasn't there long but long enough to figure that out), and by dint of not making the final 16 last year have to come through the random portion, while the alliances who they beat down for money can buy their way in. Yay everyone.
They wouldn't have got in at all last time except for all the "fake" Alliances who knocked out other teams at the selection stages then failed to turn up. This time the auctioned slots and the 60day rule should reduce people doing this to try and sell slots.
Originally by: Katarlia Simov Hint: There's more officer junk than just invul fields man, and all of it is WAY above an average alliances budget. Between officer turrets and damage mods alone you are looking at ~40% more DPS.
From a single ship, not the whole team. I mention the invul because people are more worried about unbreakable super tanks. I know exactly what other officer "junk" is available but the point is there are limits to the tanking modules and thus the ship can die.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.06 18:24:00 -
[29]
Auctioning 16 slots off is a good idea after allocating 16 based on performance, as is a raffle for all remaining slots.
Faction/officer gear, even if only on one ship, will make ISK far too important in determining outcomes of fights between haves and have-nots.
My bet is that 50% of the first round matches are won by alpha whoring Tempests.
PS: You are of course disallowing use of any shield boost amplifiers as well or do you want all flagships to be Rattlesnakes?
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2010.03.06 21:49:00 -
[30]
Awesome.
The 16 reserved/16 auctioned/remaining randomly drawn entry system gives the best of all world imo. Teams that have done well before get the chance to go again. The big, well known alliances pretty much get a guaranteed place as long as they stump up the cash and there is still room for smaller alliances to get in via the random draw.
Hooray for few rule changes. Last tournament was superb and I don't think it needs massive changes.
Flagships... I LOVE this idea. At first I wasn't sure but then I thought about it for a bit and realised how good this is. Firstly, it provides an extra thing for 'spectators' to take a look at. i.e. it gets non-contestants more involved. Second, It provides more tactical choices for the teams: do we bring out our flagship early on? save it for later? what if our opponents fit to counter it? do we intend to never use it and just post a fitting as a smokescreen for our real tactics? etc. Finally, there is the awesomeness of having rare, expensive ships and modules being used in anger and going up in smoke. My only concern is that on the whole, deadspace/officer fittings are all about increasing tank, not so much the gank. I can certainly imagine seeing matches with two insanely tanked flagships in a stalemate... Still, I can't wait to see what the teams bring out. --------------------------------------
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