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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.10 11:13:00 -
[1]
EvE has always followed a very healthy basic philosophy: everything has a risk vs reward component. And don't fly what you cannot afford to lose.
Even the "borderline" techniques, namely logoffski, MWD+cloak, playing with grids, all have more or less laborious counters.
You can bring probes and risk bigger ships to counter known logoffkers, you can drones spam and leave all sorts of wrecks and so on.
But what is the counter to an unscannable ship? None that I know. Some could try indirect ways to find "tracks" but they are totally ineffective against anyone who is not macroing / sleeping.
Now, it's understandable that T3 ships needed more incentive to be "accepted" by the player base but isn't giving immunity a touch too much? Wasn't the bubble advantage big enough? Is breaking the long standing EvE philosophy a fair price to pay just because a class of ships was not "selling" well as expected?
Since those scan immune ships can still accomplish the missions, it means the downsides are negligible vs the advantage of denying PvP. There is no one saying "I chose to still be scannable in enemy territory so I can kill / defend vs NPCs better", this is because this feature is imbalanced. In fact it's basically a "de facto" standard to make the ship immune to scan as soon as the ship is going to "risk" PvP or even just to bypass players interaction (unscannable in missions = no risk of ninjaing, no risk of mission item stealing, all mechanics CCP wanted to have).
This also brings a negative impact on other ships who have to pay dearly (aka tight specialization) for their ability to perform tasks that can still be effectively done in a lone T3 ship.
Ok, T3 is meant to be versatile, but then what's the disadvantage? What's the counter? Just some higher ISK cost?
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.10 11:20:00 -
[2]
you can kill them on gates, stations, when they attack you. just do it.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.10 11:28:00 -
[3]
Originally by: darius mclever you can kill them on gates, stations, when they attack you. just do it.
Why, can't do this on every other ship as well? And they are even bound to bubbles? So the other ships share this weakness.
On the contrary, any other ship becomes immune once they leave gates, stations and so on? How many other ships share this strength and still can combat?
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.10 12:07:00 -
[4]
your claim was they are invulnerable, but they are not. (that was my hole point)
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.10 12:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: darius mclever your claim was they are invulnerable, but they are not. (that was my hole point)
They are invulnerable to the scanning mechanic. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Discrodia
Gallente Green Peace Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.10 12:36:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Discrodia on 10/03/2010 12:36:56 I have an idea for cloaking, which at least seems interesting in concept if not in actual mechanics...
When using covops cloaks (IE, the only ones where you can do anything at all with the cloak on) if you warp, you hafta pay a small fuel cost (Around 20 units per AU jumped) after which you decloak. This might balance recon cloakers slightly, but AFK cloaking is fine. If you're so paranoid of someone who can't move, shoot, or chances are even find you, you shouldn't be complaining. After all, you can still see them in local.
Edit: So what if they're scan immune? That's the whole point of a cloak. That's like saying you should be able to shoot people while cloaked.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Locked, thread is filled with trolling.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.10 12:58:00 -
[7]
Edited by: darius mclever on 10/03/2010 12:58:10
Originally by: Discrodia Edited by: Discrodia on 10/03/2010 12:36:56 I have an idea for cloaking, which at least seems interesting in concept if not in actual mechanics...
When using covops cloaks (IE, the only ones where you can do anything at all with the cloak on) if you warp, you hafta pay a small fuel cost (Around 20 units per AU jumped) after which you decloak. This might balance recon cloakers slightly, but AFK cloaking is fine. If you're so paranoid of someone who can't move, shoot, or chances are even find you, you shouldn't be complaining. After all, you can still see them in local.
Edit: So what if they're scan immune? That's the whole point of a cloak. That's like saying you should be able to shoot people while cloaked.
he is talking about a common setup for t3 ships dissolution sequencer electronic subsystem (gives sensor strength per level) interdiction nullifier propulsion subsystem (bubble immune)
optionally: covert op offensive subsystem warfare processor defensive subsystem (gang link bonuses)
the dissolution sequencer subsystem can raise your sensor strength to a lvl, where it is very hard to probe you out when you fit 1-2 ECCM. (JFYI, formular is: sigradius/sensorstrength <= 1.08)
so for roaming gangs you get a nice commandship that is relatively safe.
some people also use this relative safety from being probed to run missions/plexes in less friendly space, but their tanks are usually pretty gimped compared to the full potential tank.
last but not least this also works on other ships. ceptors e.g. so you can have a double ECCM stiletto waiting in a safe to land tackle or just gather intel.
i wonder if we will ever see a day where people dont whine.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.10 14:22:00 -
[8]
unscannable ships are about as harmless as afk cloakers _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Brengholl
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Posted - 2010.03.10 14:42:00 -
[9]
so in short the whine here is about not being able to ninja salvage a t3 mission runner i never liked that ninja mechanic... so im fine with that but maybe the OP is right and that might, just might need looking at
anything else that can be acomplished with an unscanable ship can also be acomplished with any ship with cloak
please next time, dont hide your whine behind so much text
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.10 15:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha ...no risk of ninjaing
Out of curiousity and since you seem to be all about balance, WHAT IS the counter to ninjaing?
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:13:00 -
[11]
Quote:
so in short the whine here is about not being able to ninja salvage a t3 mission runner i never liked that ninja mechanic... so im fine with that but maybe the OP is right and that might, just might need looking at
anything else that can be acomplished with an unscanable ship can also be acomplished with any ship with cloak
please next time, dont hide your whine behind so much text
Since 80% of my current income comes from missioning, you are looking at the wrong direction about ninjas and similar.
They are despisable individuals but CCP decided to support their "miniprofession".
If everyone else has to be subject to them, why some should not?
Quote:
unscannable ships are about as harmless as afk cloakers
AFK cloakers cannot farm PLEXEs under someone else's face though.
Quote:
Out of curiousity and since you seem to be all about balance, WHAT IS the counter to ninjaing?
Salvaging while doing the mission is a good start. Shooting the wrecks at least denies them the stuff but I have yet to resort to it due to the above.
Persistent pests are usually fixed by warping out and getting them killed.
Quote:
anything else that can be acomplished with an unscanable ship can also be acomplished with any ship with cloak
No, the unscannable ship breaks an EvE principle, that is everything has a counter.
If they made say a 1B module that can be the only one that can be fitted and only on another T3 ship and that 1B module allows to track an unscannable ship, then there would be a counter. Sure it'd be used very few times but the principle would be restored.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:20:00 -
[12]
you can not probe out the ship. but you can probe out the plex, the anomaly, the drones (some people are stupid enough for that).
you can wait for them on gates, you can wait for them on stations.
they made some effort to make your life harder, but it is not impossible to catch them. so you have to put some effort in to get the kill.
if you want easy kills, run missions.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 10/03/2010 16:21:49
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Salvaging while doing the mission is a good start. Shooting the wrecks at least denies them the stuff but I have yet to resort to it due to the above.
Ummm, so your solution for someone doing say, level 3 missions is to fit salvagers on their Caracal, or let me guess, they should do it on Marauders? . But you find it ridiculous when someone suggests to catch T3's at the gate?
Oh, and destroying your own wrecks isn't a counter. It's just trying to spite someone for stealing your wreck while spiting your own self in the process.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:29:00 -
[14]
Unscannable ships are used for two things:
Missions in hostile areas
Safe gang bonuses
How is the first bothering you? Their efficiency is significantly cut down and they can be caught. Patience is a virtue.
The second instance, needs looking into. But IMO this is more a problem with ships giving bonuses off grid, than it is unscannable ships.
As stated, unscannable ships cannot run plexes with immunity as you can simply scan out the signature. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:30:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha AFK cloakers cannot farm PLEXEs under someone else's face though.
They "farm" intel with impunity which is what they're there to do in the first place.
Quote: Salvaging while doing the mission is a good start. Shooting the wrecks at least denies them the stuff but I have yet to resort to it due to the above.
See my response above.
Quote: Persistent pests are usually fixed by warping out and getting them killed.
This isn't a counter. This hoping, wishing, and praying that the ninja salvager is stupid enough to not warp away if he can't tank NPC rats.
Quote: No, the unscannable ship breaks an EvE principle, that is everything has a counter.
Try again with ninja salvaging. None of your suggestions were valid. Or, they are as good a suggestion as the ones you were provided to counter unscannable ships .
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:44:00 -
[16]
Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 10/03/2010 16:45:36
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha ...no risk of ninjaing
Out of curiousity and since you seem to be all about balance, WHAT IS the counter to ninjaing?
... salvage before they do? Or get a friend to do it for you (very new players make great slave labour, they don't want for much )?
Laziness is no excuse. _____
10/10: Where is your God now? |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: SupaKudoRio Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 10/03/2010 16:45:36
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha ...no risk of ninjaing
Out of curiousity and since you seem to be all about balance, WHAT IS the counter to ninjaing?
... salvage before they do? Or get a friend to do it for you (very new players make great slave labour, they don't want for much )?
Laziness is no excuse.
Exactly. If someone is too lazy for not wanting to use a properly set up gatecamp to catch T3's at the gate that isn't an excuse either. Under a properly set up gatecamp no ship is immune.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.10 18:31:00 -
[18]
When the cry goes out that a T3 has been found near your space, you end up with enough people in a fleet to properly catch that ship. A T3 ship showing up in someone's space draws the same attention as a faction BS, or capital ship. People are willing to bubble and reinforce POSs to get them. The only two places where a T3 ship has a dramatic advantage is in low sec and when traveling rapidly through low sec or 0.0.
If you want to make them scannable, then all cloaked ships should be scannable, which would be one of the biggest nerfs ever.
Fix Local |
Slade Hoo
Amarr Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.03.10 18:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Bagehi
If you want to make them scannable, then all cloaked ships should be scannable, which would be one of the biggest nerfs ever.
cloaked ships can't fire weapons, use ganglinks, etc. Especially those t3 fleet boosters are invincible on a safe spot. There is a reason why ganglinks can't be activated while warping after all. You can simply exploit this mechanic by using an unprobable ship. This should be considered an exploit! ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.10 19:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Slade Hoo
Originally by: Bagehi
If you want to make them scannable, then all cloaked ships should be scannable, which would be one of the biggest nerfs ever.
cloaked ships can't fire weapons, use ganglinks, etc. Especially those t3 fleet boosters are invincible on a safe spot. There is a reason why ganglinks can't be activated while warping after all. You can simply exploit this mechanic by using an unprobable ship. This should be considered an exploit!
Wait... what? It can't be probed because it is cloaked. If it is cloaked, the gang links aren't on. If it isn't cloaked, you can find it with probes.
Fix Local |
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Slade Hoo
Amarr Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.03.10 19:07:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 10/03/2010 19:07:54
Originally by: Bagehi
Wait... what? It can't be probed because it is cloaked. If it is cloaked, the gang links aren't on. If it isn't cloaked, you can find it with probes.
Read the whole thread pls. You can make ships unprobable by raising your sensor strength to 108% of your signature radius. Can easily be done with the correct subsystem of t3 ships and some eccm modules. You even can fit 2 command processors and 3 ganglinks along with covert ops cloaking and interdiction nullifier (good at gates on your way to safespots). Perfect gang booster character that is unprobable and has cov ops cloak. ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Delenne Sheridan
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Posted - 2010.03.10 19:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha EvE has always followed a very healthy basic philosophy: everything has a risk vs reward component. And don't fly what you cannot afford to lose.
Even the "borderline" techniques, namely logoffski, MWD+cloak, playing with grids, all have more or less laborious counters.
You can bring probes and risk bigger ships to counter known logoffkers, you can drones spam and leave all sorts of wrecks and so on.
But what is the counter to an unscannable ship? None that I know. Some could try indirect ways to find "tracks" but they are totally ineffective against anyone who is not macroing / sleeping.
Now, it's understandable that T3 ships needed more incentive to be "accepted" by the player base but isn't giving immunity a touch too much? Wasn't the bubble advantage big enough? Is breaking the long standing EvE philosophy a fair price to pay just because a class of ships was not "selling" well as expected?
Since those scan immune ships can still accomplish the missions, it means the downsides are negligible vs the advantage of denying PvP. There is no one saying "I chose to still be scannable in enemy territory so I can kill / defend vs NPCs better", this is because this feature is imbalanced. In fact it's basically a "de facto" standard to make the ship immune to scan as soon as the ship is going to "risk" PvP or even just to bypass players interaction (unscannable in missions = no risk of ninjaing, no risk of mission item stealing, all mechanics CCP wanted to have).
This also brings a negative impact on other ships who have to pay dearly (aka tight specialization) for their ability to perform tasks that can still be effectively done in a lone T3 ship.
Ok, T3 is meant to be versatile, but then what's the disadvantage? What's the counter? Just some higher ISK cost?
Unture, in real life there are somethings you can find or scan for, so it should be in eve....
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.10 19:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Slade Hoo Edited by: Slade Hoo on 10/03/2010 19:09:54 Edited by: Slade Hoo on 10/03/2010 19:07:54
Originally by: Bagehi
Wait... what? It can't be probed because it is cloaked. If it is cloaked, the gang links aren't on. If it isn't cloaked, you can find it with probes.
Read the whole thread pls. You can make ships unprobable (without using cloak) by raising your sensor strength to 108% of your signature radius. Can easily be done with the correct subsystem of t3 ships and some eccm modules. You even can fit 2 command processors and 3 ganglinks along with covert ops cloaking and interdiction nullifier (good at gates on your way to safespots). Perfect gang booster character that is unprobable and has cov ops cloak.
False. They can still be probed. It is harder to do. But if you are hunting down a SS gang booster during a fleet fight, you are probably doing it wrong. There are far better uses for your time even if it was a triple extender fleet command ship. Besides, with hundreds of ships zipping around (as they warp-in/out) you aren't going to find a single ship very easily unless it was titan-sized.
Fix Local |
FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.10 19:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bagehi
False. They can still be probed. It is harder to do.
Nope, if it's signature to sensor strength ratio is under 1.08 then with no skills and equipment you'll be able to get a warpable result on it. In reality even that much isn't required, because really, how many probers have full virtue sets in their clone? I don't see anything wrong in ship that can't be scanned though It gives more advantage then a cloak but it gimps your setup more then cloak too Furthermore, you're already reading my sig |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.10 20:53:00 -
[25]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 10/03/2010 20:55:18
Originally by: Slade Hoo cloaked ships can't fire weapons, use ganglinks, etc. Especially those t3 fleet boosters are invincible on a safe spot. There is a reason why ganglinks can't be activated while warping after all. You can simply exploit this mechanic by using an unprobable ship. This should be considered an exploit!
Sounds to me that if there is a problem then it is with gang links, not T3 themselves.
So perhaps the thread should be about nerfing gang links and at least your arguments would be consistent. Not that I think there's a problem with those either. But you're better off arguing that gang links are overpowered.
The fact is:
Cloaked ships in hostile territory collect useful intel with impunity. This is working as intended.
T3 ships can boost sensor strength to be unscannable while plexing (working as intended).
Where they differ: Gang link bonuses.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.10 21:46:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 10/03/2010 21:51:38
Quote:
T3 ships can boost sensor strength to be unscannable while plexing (working as intended).
Going _beyond_ 100% sensor strength cannot be "working as intended". It's like pretending to have > 100% damage resistance (enemies give you HP!).
The only reason CCP has not closed this exploit (that is smart use of game mechanics) is because they could not entice people to bother with their labor intensive T3 and so they dropped an huge hook. Now they sold the T3 concept, they may as well close the hole, which IMHO should figure on their internal CVS as pure bug (ie letting modules stack beyond the maximum possible). - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.10 22:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 10/03/2010 21:51:38
Quote:
T3 ships can boost sensor strength to be unscannable while plexing (working as intended).
Going _beyond_ 100% sensor strength cannot be "working as intended". It's like pretending to have > 100% damage resistance (enemies give you HP!).
The only reason CCP has not closed this exploit (that is smart use of game mechanics) is because they could not entice people to bother with their labor intensive T3 and so they dropped an huge hook. Now they sold the T3 concept, they may as well close the hole, which IMHO should figure on their internal CVS as pure bug (ie letting modules stack beyond the maximum possible).
You're still evading the issue. Now you're nit-picking sensor strength beyond 100% which isn't an argument in on itself. You've failed to address the arguments above, but I'll bite this one anyway.
If indeed is an unintended oversight as you claim it is, then they can always cap it at 100%.
What I don't understand is how you could possibly argue that cloaks are working as intended (collecting intel) when there is no real counter to them and that T3s are broken for performing the very task they've been created to specialize in. You can't possibly "fix" one without fixing the other, as they are both doing their jobs as intended. And in my opinion neither can hurt you and both are gimped to pose any kind of serious threat.
If you want to argue that gang links bonuses re broken, then you may be able to pose a better argument there. But the fact that you're avoiding the issue to basically just "fix" the one problem that bothers you is very hypocritical. I'm sorry, but that is just how it looks.
Bottom line is there is nothing overpowered about T3s.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.03.10 22:13:00 -
[28]
Quote:
What I don't understand is how you could possibly argue that cloaks are working as intended (collecting intel)
If it was just for me I'd nerf cloaks as well. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.10 22:19:00 -
[29]
i think you got some misconception there: 100% sensor strength doesnt exist. you can always add more ECCM/backup arrays until you run out of slots (and friends for ECCM projectors).
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.11 00:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: darius mclever i think you got some misconception there: 100% sensor strength doesnt exist. you can always add more ECCM/backup arrays until you run out of slots (and friends for ECCM projectors).
The misconception is in the inhumane efforts spent to avoid PvP at all costs, in the top non consensual PvP game of all. From that misconception come the need to invent all sorts of "principles", all sort of "parables", all sorts of nitpickings. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.11 00:08:00 -
[31]
Your entire argument is fundamentally flawed and shows a severe misunderstanding of the game. Some examples: - Being unprobeable wasn't introduced ex post facto - it actually included in the first introduction of the scanning system and people found ways to make it happen with T3s (along side many ships up to battlecruiser sized). - Capping sensor strength vs sig radius means that you cap how well someone can resist being jammed. Smooth move there, slick. - Becoming unprobeable comes with significant sacrifices - a "tight specialization" if you will. This is a significant enough penalty that I'd wonder if they wouldn't make more ISK in high sec than missioning in 0.0/lowsec. Especially if they fit the covops mod and interdiction nullifier. - Being unprobeable doesn't offer many advantages over being cloaked from a PVP perspective. You can't effectively attack someone, but you can give bonuses and collect intel in local. Well, I suppose I have to give this one to the cloaked ship seeing as how it can do all that but doesn't so significantly affect its actual combat abilities. - Dealing with unprobeable mission runners (this seems to be your primary beef) is extremely easy. They are still vulnerable on gates and stations, and people regularly kill recons on gates and stations and T3 are not any different. To put it bluntly, if you can't kill an unprobeable ship in your stomping grounds, it's because YOU fail. - Complaining about someone having nor isk of ninjaing or item stealing is pretty ****ing LOL. There's lots of ways to do that, and my Golem has never had anyone enter the mission and steal loot or salvage. - T3 has a much heftier penalty for loss. Show me another ship that forces skillpoint loss.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.03.11 00:55:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/03/2010 01:01:27
Quote:
- Being unprobeable wasn't introduced ex post facto - it actually included in the first introduction of the scanning system and people found ways to make it happen with T3s (along side many ships up to battlecruiser sized).
I know this, and does not change it should not be possible to do it, on any ship.
Actually I always found it quite peculiar that boosting sensor strength on yourself you affect another stat, but I suppose this is just another residual of who knows what ancient past.
Quote:
- Becoming unprobeable comes with significant sacrifices - a "tight specialization" if you will. This is a significant enough penalty that I'd wonder if they wouldn't make more ISK in high sec than missioning in 0.0/lowsec. Especially if they fit the covops mod and interdiction nullifier.
If it was significant enough, people would not apply it on every opportunity.
Quote:
- Being unprobeable doesn't offer many advantages over being cloaked from a PVP perspective. You can't effectively attack someone, but you can give bonuses and collect intel in local
Never said being cloaked should not be looked at all of its advantages and eventually nerfed. It's another escamotage to reward for no risk after all.
Quote:
- Dealing with unprobeable mission runners (this seems to be your primary beef) is extremely easy. They are still vulnerable on gates and stations
Because safe spots don't exist and you MUST dock with the T3 ship even just to get more ammo, no way you could do that with an alt in a cheaper ship. Oh wait...
Quote:
and people regularly kill recons on gates and stations and T3 are not any different
Recons are strong ships but don't go beyond "the rules" after all. Killing a T3 on a gate? I dare say it might be harder.
Quote:
To put it bluntly, if you can't kill an unprobeable ship in your stomping grounds, it's because YOU fail.
Apparently, the "can't kill an unprobeable ship" works so well that everyone and their dog fit that kit. It's like nano again or like falcons again. When it becomes a MUST to do a certain way, it means the game is imbalanced towards that way and you know that sooner or later it will get axed. Nevertheless, for every blatantly overpowered feature, there's always a fat group of benefitters who find it just fine. What I can read here is really nothing, nothing new that I have not found in the many years I play MMOs. A new game feature is introduced, insufficient testing does not let the developers cover every hole and of course there's a mob of people working 24/7 to find every possible opening to take advantage. Of course they find it perfect, fine and appropriate to use these misfeatures and will beat on everyone who is not hypocrital enough to join the clapping mob.
Quote:
- Complaining about someone having nor isk of ninjaing or item stealing is pretty ****ing LOL. There's lots of ways to do that, and my Golem has never had anyone enter the mission and steal loot or salvage.
Yup, you have to use some very, very basic diligence in your Golem though. That's what makes the Golem fine.
Quote:
- T3 has a much heftier penalty for loss. Show me another ship that forces skillpoint loss
The loss is because you fly a small signature yet powerful and tanked ship, not because you are permitted to circumvent being found.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.11 01:40:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If it was significant enough, people would not apply it on every opportunity.
I've seen lots of requests for unprobeable mission runners, but very few in space. And the ones I've seen in space i can probe. I think you're jumping at theoretical shadows here.
Quote:
Never said being cloaked should not be looked at all of its advantages and eventually nerfed. It's another escamotage to reward for no risk after all.
Nerfing cloaking also nerfs the ability of the few to wage war against the many in *any* fashion. I'd be -1 to a cloak nerf.
Quote: Because safe spots don't exist and you MUST dock with the T3 ship even just to get more ammo, no way you could do that with an alt in a cheaper ship. Oh wait...
Because missions are all in the same system and you don't have to dock to get more missions, and involving more than one character doesn't always bring more advantages..... Oh wait...
Quote: Recons are strong ships but don't go beyond "the rules" after all. Killing a T3 on a gate? I dare say it might be harder. Apparently, the "can't kill an unprobeable ship" works so well that everyone and their dog fit that kit.
Dare say it all you want, it doesn't change the FACT that it's not any harder than killing a recon - and in some ways it's actually easier. But in the end all your post is boiling down to is BBBBBAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!! Besides, don't you have 7B isk to pay off before you can waste our time about how you fail at PVP?
Quote: It's like nano again or like falcons again. When it becomes a MUST to do a certain way, it means the game is imbalanced towards that way and you know that sooner or later it will get axed.
Yep, all the PVE threads are about unprobeable Tengus. That's right folks, you heard it here. Haven't seen a CNR/Raven/Domi/Abaddon/Paladin/Nightmare/Nighthawk/Caracal/Drake/Bomber/Blah PVE thread in months!
Quote:
What I can read here is really nothing, nothing new that I have not found in the many years I play MMOs. A new game feature is introduced, insufficient testing does not let the developers cover every hole and of course there's a mob of people working 24/7 to find every possible opening to take advantage. Of course they find it perfect, fine and appropriate to use these misfeatures and will beat on everyone who is not hypocrital enough to join the clapping mob.
Oh, and btw, I *DO* choose to be scannable (and not in a Tengu no less!) in hostile systems so that I can have an edge in PVE. WHOOPS BECAUSE NOBODY DOES THAT.
Quote: The loss is because you fly a small signature yet powerful and tanked ship, not because you are permitted to circumvent being found.
Yes, because nobody has ever been able to fly around in good small ships before.
-Liang
-- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Chirjo Durruti
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.11 05:05:00 -
[34]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 10/03/2010 18:37:36
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Salvaging while doing the mission is a good start. Shooting the wrecks at least denies them the stuff but I have yet to resort to it due to the above.
Ummm, so your solution for someone doing say, level 3 missions is to fit salvagers and tractor beams on their Caracal and race the ninjaer to them, or let me guess, they should L3 on Marauders?
I do lvl3 missions with a Myrmidon. It has tractor and salvager on it. I did some lvl3 with a vexor (even "Probing Question"), it had a salvager.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2010.03.11 07:55:00 -
[35]
Setups with great sensor strength should be much harder to probe (like they're harder to jamm), not completely immune.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.11 08:01:00 -
[36]
Quote:
I've seen lots of requests for unprobeable mission runners, but very few in space
That's the whole point of the thread. You are not meant to see them in space, they would not even buy a T3 if you could.
Quote:
Nerfing cloaking also nerfs the ability of the few to wage war against the many in *any* fashion. I'd be -1 to a cloak nerf.
At DR we started in like 5-10 people in early 2009 and ended in 150 men fleets by Nov 2009. Failure to attract players with a solid corp should not be hedged by using a module imho.
Quote:
Because missions are all in the same system and you don't have to dock to get more missions, and involving more than one character doesn't always bring more advantages..... Oh wait...
Last time I checked, you don't have to dock in a T3 to turn in a mission.
Quote:
Besides, don't you have 7B isk to pay off before you can waste our time about how you fail at PVP?
Oh, but by missioning (the other overpowered thing you frothe at the mouth to defend so much) I am half done already. With 1 BPC + minerals + some self made T2 modules and a 150k shield (what is it in total?), in 2 hours a day, I am earning almost 30% a month of what Varo Jan is earning with a 150 BILLIONS investment in the research alliance he purchased.
Quote:
Yes, because nobody has ever been able to fly around in good small ships before.
Of course those inties and cov ops have a battleship-alike tank and gank!
Quote:
Setups with great sensor strength should be much harder to probe (like they're harder to jamm), not completely immune.
That's exactly my whole point.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Daniel Cordova
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Posted - 2010.03.11 12:59:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Setups with great sensor strength should be much harder to probe (like they're harder to jamm), not completely immune.
Then the same should be for cloaking.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2010.03.11 13:08:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Daniel Cordova
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Setups with great sensor strength should be much harder to probe (like they're harder to jamm), not completely immune.
Then the same should be for cloaking.
I don't see any parallels or logic here, care to explain?
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Daniel Cordova
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Posted - 2010.03.11 14:09:00 -
[39]
Cloaks/recons have the ability to collect valuable intel in null sec and even prey on miners/ratters. It's what they're for. And they also cannot be probed.
If your argument is that it isn't fair some ships cannot be probed then logically your argument should also extend to recons not being able to be probed. Why would you include one and exclude the other?
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.03.11 14:59:00 -
[40]
I wasn't going to comment on this issue, just because I know nothing I say is going to convince anyone of anything - but whatever. I've never been known for my ability to keep my mouth shut, even when I should.
I found this loadout on battle clinc of an unprobable Loki that had received decent ratings (23+, 0-). http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/33477-Unscannable-Uber-Skirmish-Boosting-Loki-100km-point.html
I have no idea what you lot are on about. This ship has absolutely no tank at all, and has one frigate sized T2 autocannon. I get that it can provide significant bonuses to a fleet, but in reality there's nothing stopping you from adding one of your own.
Additionally, as has already been point out, you can catch them on gates if you have a skilled interceptor pilot that can catch cloaking ships, so the ship isn't invulnerable and the niche it fills is a tiny one - if it deviates from that role, even slightly, it's absolutely screwed.
I'm sorry, and I know I won't convince you (specifically the OP) but I can't support your proposal because, frankly, I don't see the problem. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2010.03.11 16:03:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 11/03/2010 16:04:39
Originally by: Daniel Cordova Cloaks/recons have the ability to collect valuable intel in null sec and even prey on miners/ratters. It's what they're for. And they also cannot be probed.
If your argument is that it isn't fair some ships cannot be probed then logically your argument should also extend to recons not being able to be probed. Why would you include one and exclude the other?
Then why wouldn't you fit cloak to your missionrunning ship instead of loads of ECCMs? Because it doesn't allow you to do anything except for flying around?
When you fit ECCMs - you should sacrifice efficiency of your ship, gaining more time to bail when you see probes (not to become completely immune to them, because your ship is still able to do various things including killing NPCs). When you fit cloak - you reduce PvE/gang boosting efficiency of your ship to zero, making it impossible to scan you. I don't see any irrationality here.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.11 16:48:00 -
[42]
Why does your sensor strength have anything to do with how difficult it is to probe you down? That's what I would like to know. Why isn't it simply a function of your sig radius? If CCP just changed the equation, none of this would be an issue. If you want to disappear, use a cloak.
Fix Local |
Daniel Cordova
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Posted - 2010.03.11 17:14:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Daniel Cordova on 11/03/2010 17:24:53
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Then why wouldn't you fit cloak to your missionrunning ship instead of loads of ECCMs? Because it doesn't allow you to do anything except for flying around?
Because just as a recon ship needs to be cloaked in order to perform its job properly (itÆs why itÆs called a recon) an NPCÆing setup T3 needs sensor boosters to NPC properly (i.e., what it's meant for). The bonus of the dissolution sequencer applies to ECCM modules, not cloaks. ItÆs like fitting ECCM on a recon instead of the covert ops cloak. Why would you do that?
Quote: When you fit ECCMs - you should sacrifice efficiency of your ship
Then youÆll be happy to know you are sacrificing efficiency. Run a plex with max tank/gank and then run the same plex with ECCMs fit instead. Compare results. When T3 ships fit ECCM modules they are gimping their tank/gank. They cannot hurt you and therefore will not be a threat to you.
Quote: gaining more time to bail when you see probes (not to become completely immune to them, because your ship is still able to do various things including killing NPCs). When you fit cloak - you reduce PvE/gang boosting efficiency of your ship to zero, making it impossible to scan you. I don't see any irrationality here.
Recons arenÆt specialized in PVE/gang boosting, therefore the fact that they lose efficiency in those areas is irrelevant. What they donÆt lose efficiency on even when cloaked is the ability to recon (i.e. gather intel). In fact, because they are cloaked they are even better suited to do their job and thus their efficiency is higher in the area they are meant to fulfill.
D.C.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.03.11 18:25:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha But what is the counter to an unscannable ship? None that I know.
You can still catch it on gates or stations.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Wasn't the bubble advantage big enough?
No. And id say its still isnt enough when you take into consideration that t3s are around 500m and cost you 4 days of training when you die.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Since those scan immune ships can still accomplish the missions, it means the downsides are negligible vs the advantage of denying PvP.
Its understandable that pve ship is avoiding pvp. But player still have to dock/jump the gate to complete mission, get new missions, refit and get ammo = it definitely isnt invulnerable.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha In fact it's basically a "de facto" standard to make the ship immune to scan as soon as the ship is going to "risk" PvP
It isnt standard, you are giving up alot of ships potential by making it unprobeable.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha unscannable in missions = no risk of ninjaing, no risk of mission item stealing, all mechanics CCP wanted to have
Its counter to this mechanic. Again, you are giving up alot of ships potential by countering ninjaing through making ship unprobeable.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha This also brings a negative impact on other ships who have to pay dearly (aka tight specialization) for their ability to perform tasks that can still be effectively done in a lone T3 ship.
No.
Generally - its a whine of 'pvper' /hard to call ppl who hunt down pve ships real pvpers/ who is not able to probe down mission runners in system he lives and is too lazy to do a proper camp.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.12 13:04:00 -
[45]
Quote:
But what is the counter to an unscannable ship? None that I know. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can still catch it on gates or stations
You could also catch pre-nerf nano ships and falcons!
Quote:
Its understandable that pve ship is avoiding pvp. But player still have to dock/jump the gate to complete mission, get new missions, refit and get ammo = it definitely isnt invulnerable.
The player can dock, turn in missions and get ammo in a cov ops or even a shuttle, all it takes is an alt. In my case it's even easier, as (expecially for non empire agents, so I can just switch standings alt and reuse the pilots) I do everything in station with an alt, the pilots just kill the stuff.
As for changing system, it's what having multiple L4 Q20 agents in the system is for, and in case of real need to leave, it's still possible to come and go near downtime with impunity.
Quote:
It isnt standard, you are giving up alot of ships potential by making it unprobeable
You trade the complete impossibility of doing a PLEX or mission there, with the possibility to do it. Sure, on paper it's giving up a lot but it's the enabler to do what you could not otherwise.
Quote:
Generally - its a whine of 'pvper'
All you need is to head on the mission forum to see what I am doing ATM: exclusively mission.
Of course you cannot even begin to believe that someone can be different from the standard "what makes me immediate easy profit I approve and justify regardless of whether it's good or bad" and thus call nerfs against his own professions for the sake of game long term good.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.12 13:28:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
You could also catch pre-nerf nano ships and falcons!
what a terrible argument
nanoships and falcons completely skewed pvp...unscannable ships are rare and hardly affect anyone
Quote:
The player can dock, turn in missions and get ammo in a cov ops or even a shuttle, all it takes is an alt. In my case it's even easier, as (expecially for non empire agents, so I can just switch standings alt and reuse the pilots) I do everything in station with an alt, the pilots just kill the stuff.
As for changing system, it's what having multiple L4 Q20 agents in the system is for, and in case of real need to leave, it's still possible to come and go near downtime with impunity.
Regardless, the pilot is being limited. They are having to be extremely careful and take extraordinary precautions to stay alive. Unscannable ships have opened up a new door for missioners, albeit with a few strings attached.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.12 15:16:00 -
[47]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 12/03/2010 15:20:09
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The player can dock, turn in missions and get ammo in a cov ops or even a shuttle, all it takes is an alt. In my case it's even easier, as (expecially for non empire agents, so I can just switch standings alt and reuse the pilots) I do everything in station with an alt, the pilots just kill the stuff.
Your problem seems to be with alts. But your real intention is to nerf something you can't gank with your PVP ship while it's at its most vulnerable, doing PVE. So CCP comes up with a ship that counters that and naturally now you want a counter to that counter.
Quote: As for changing system, it's what having multiple L4 Q20 agents in the system is for, and in case of real need to leave, it's still possible to come and go near downtime with impunity.
This isn't a problem inherent to T3 ships. In fact, this isn't a problem at all. But you're better off arguing that placing too many hi quality agents in one system creates an unfair ability to pick and choose missions. But like I said, your true motive and gripe is not being able to gank PVE ships with your PVP gank squad of death. But you won't say this. You come under different pretenses. But meh, whatever.
Quote: You trade the complete impossibility of doing a PLEX or mission there, with the possibility to do it. Sure, on paper it's giving up a lot but it's the enabler to do what you could not otherwise.
On paper? Have you even ever tried stuffing a T3 with ECCM and compared its efficiency with a non-ECCM version? You don't seem to even understand you're giving up DPS AND tank. You say you're a mission runner, but are you really? From what you say you don't seem to run missions a lot.
Quote: Of course you cannot even begin to believe that someone can be different from the standard "what makes me immediate easy profit I approve and justify regardless of whether it's good or bad" and thus call nerfs against his own professions for the sake of game long term good.
And by "game long term good" you really mean be able to gank even the one ship that specializes in countering attacks to a PVE setup. Gotcha.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2010.03.12 15:25:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 12/03/2010 15:26:05
Originally by: Daniel Cordova Because just as a recon ship needs to be cloaked in order to perform its job properly (itÆs why itÆs called a recon) an NPCÆing setup T3 needs sensor boosters to NPC properly (i.e., what it's meant for). The bonus of the dissolution sequencer applies to ECCM modules, not cloaks. ItÆs like fitting ECCM on a recon instead of the covert ops cloak. Why would you do that? ... Recons arenÆt specialized in PVE/gang boosting, therefore the fact that they lose efficiency in those areas is irrelevant. What they donÆt lose efficiency in even when cloaked is the ability to recon (i.e. gather intel). In fact, because they are cloaked they are invulnerable and thus able to perform their job at a much higher efficiency!
I'm talking about PvE aspect only here. Titan also can bridge ships from safety, performing its role well, recons/covops can too (but guess what? Covops don't have bubble immunity subsystem and can be caught easily after jumping to other systems by some nice camp).
And - dissolution sequencer doesn't boost ECCM bonus, it just boosts your sensor strength.
Originally by: Daniel Cordova Then youÆll be happy to know you are sacrificing efficiency. Run a plex with max tank/gank and then run the same plex with ECCMs fit instead. Compare results. When T3 ships fit ECCM modules they are gimping their tank/gank. They cannot hurt you and therefore will not be a threat to you.
I still can do 4 lvl missions in it. Its efficiency is less, but far from being zero.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.12 15:44:00 -
[49]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 12/03/2010 15:58:27
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess I'm talking about PvE aspect only here.
Of course you are. Wouldn't want your advocated nerf to interfere with YOUR playstyle. That's what it boils down to.
"CCP, please nerf PVE... But leave my cloaks and PVP alone".
Quote: Titan also can bridge ships from safety, performing its role well, recons/covops can too (but guess what? Covops don't have bubble immunity subsystem and can be caught easily after jumping to other systems by some nice camp).
Ever heard of inties? I hear they're great with bumping and quick locks. And before you bring the "you can't use bubbles in lo sec" I'll just point out the bubble immune subsystem is useless in lo sec as well.
Quote: I still can do 4 lvl missions in it. Its efficiency is less, but far from being zero.
How about a friggin recon? IT DOES ITS JOB BETTER BECAUSE IT CLOAKED. IN 100% SAFETY. Let's NURF IT! But let me guess... You think those are fine .
In lo sec you pretty much have all the advantages to win a fight against a PVE fit but that still isn't enough. You seem to be so incompetent that you scream and whine to CCP to give you even a greater edge when you fight against a PVE ship. Seriously, just ask CCP to make all PVE ships on a system you jump into just flock to you and automatically line up so you can one-shot them display your killing prowess on your killboard.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Brisco County
Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2010.03.14 00:11:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Brisco County on 14/03/2010 00:15:24 Of course there is a counter to cloaking. It's called probing. At least, that's what they tell me. I have yet to probe a cloaked ship. Not much of a counter, really.
Never mind the fact that the only ships that get probing bonuses are all cloakers. Does it seem sort of strange that a ship should be its own counter?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.14 00:14:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Brisco County Of course there is a counter to cloaking. It's called probing. At least, that's what they tell me. I have yet to probe a cloaked ship. Not much of a counter, really.
it is the other way around, cloaks are the counter to probing.
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Brisco County
Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2010.03.14 01:12:00 -
[52]
What is the counter to cloaks, then?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.14 01:13:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Brisco County What is the counter to cloaks, then?
sensor recalibration penalty scan res penalty speed penalty under cloak
not enough penalty for you?
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Dissonance Corp Primary.
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Posted - 2010.03.14 10:16:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 14/03/2010 10:16:37
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Dealing with unprobeable mission runners (this seems to be your primary beef) is extremely easy. They are still vulnerable on gates and stations, and people regularly kill recons on gates and stations and T3 are not any different. To put it bluntly, if you can't kill an unprobeable ship in your stomping grounds, it's because YOU fail
ITT: camping all of your own gates and stations 23/7 to catch one ship - 'extremely easy'.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Dissonance Corp Primary.
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Posted - 2010.03.14 10:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Brisco County What is the counter to cloaks, then?
sensor recalibration penalty scan res penalty speed penalty under cloak
not enough penalty for you?
it's a button you press that makes your ship invulnerable forever
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Rutger Centemus
Dvice Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.03.14 10:28:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 14/03/2010 10:16:37
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Dealing with unprobeable mission runners (this seems to be your primary beef) is extremely easy. They are still vulnerable on gates and stations, and people regularly kill recons on gates and stations and T3 are not any different. To put it bluntly, if you can't kill an unprobeable ship in your stomping grounds, it's because YOU fail
ITT: camping all of your own gates and stations 23/7 to catch one ship - 'extremely easy'.
ITT: 30 second (tops) probing strikes for inability to run higher level missions in low sec solo in any semi-efficient form. As for 'impossible to catch them'? Untrue. Harder: yes; impossible: no ('even' whilst the prey is running a mission).
Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.14 12:48:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza it's a button you press that makes your ship invulnerable forever
and one competent ceptor to decloak me on the gate.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Dissonance Corp Primary.
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Posted - 2010.03.14 14:15:00 -
[58]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza it's a button you press that makes your ship invulnerable forever
and one competent ceptor to decloak me on the gate.
lol
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2010.03.14 15:50:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 14/03/2010 15:52:06
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Of course you are. Wouldn't want your advocated nerf to interfere with YOUR playstyle; just the one you don't like.
You still didn't answer my question... why won't you use cloak if it's so effective then?
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Ever heard of inties? I hear they're great for declaoking/bumping and quick locks. And before you bring the "you can't use bubbles in lo sec" I'll just point out the bubble immune subsystem is useless in lo sec as well.
Proper decloaking is efficient only when target which jumped into camp cannot warp from its spot and has to fly ~10 km just to get out of the bubble. T3 has interdiction nullifier which helps to get out of the bubble anyway because even if you're decloaked, it's too late for campers.
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 How about a friggin recon? IT DOES ITS JOB BETTER BECAUSE IT'S CLOAKED. IN 100% SAFETY. Let's NURF IT! But let me guess... You think those are fine .
Ye, what's wrong with force recons?
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 In lo sec you pretty much have all the advantages to win a fight against a PVE fit but that still isn't enough. You seem to be so incompetent that you scream and whine to CCP to give you even a greater edge when you fight against a PVE ship. Seriously, just ask CCP to make all PVE ships on a system you jump into just flock to you and automatically line up so you can one-shot them and display your killing prowess on your killboard.
Raging is poor argument. Go fit a cloak on your PvE ship and prove that it's still efficient (and even more efficient than immune to probers setups)!
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.14 16:44:00 -
[60]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/03/2010 16:55:35
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess You still didn't answer my question... why won't you use cloak if it's so effective then?
The same reason a recon wouldn't load up on ECCMs instead of a cloak, because the wrong tool for the job, no matter how good won't do you any good. If what you need is a hammer and someone brings you the best screwdriver in the world you're still SOL. So, how exactly will a T3 fit for plexing do his job cloaked? And why would you not want a T3 to do the job it's meant to do while you seem to not have a problem with a recon doing his job with 100% safety?
Quote: Proper decloaking is efficient only when target which jumped into camp cannot warp from its spot and has to fly ~10 km just to get out of the bubble. T3 has interdiction nullifier which helps to get out of the bubble anyway because even if you're decloaked, it's too late for campers.
Actually this just isn't true. So arguing with you that it is possible while you argue it isn't is pointless. I'll have to leave it at that.
Quote: Ye, what's wrong with force recons?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with them. I'm pointing out that they do their job extremely well while being 100% safe. But that's what they're meant to do. Wouldn't you agree? But what I'm having trouble understanding is why would you think recons are fine and that they *should* be able to do their jobs in 100% safety while T3s shouldn't. Your response a couple of posts above was "I'm only talking PVE here" which leads me to believe you're OK with invulnerabilities in PVP but not PVE.
Then you change the conversation to "well, the interdiction nullifier makes it invulnerable". And then my response to you is that your problem is with the interdiction nullifier and why not ask CCP to nerf that instead? You still haven't proven that the dissolution sequencer is overpowered. And you really won't be able to. Because as long as you think 100% safe intel-gathering is OK but 100% safe plexing isn't your argument is hypocritical.
Quote: Go fit a cloak on your PvE ship and prove that it's still efficient (and even more efficient than immune to probers setups)!
Go fit ECCMs on a recon instead of a cloak and prove that it's still efficient (and even more efficient than immune to probers setups).
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.14 20:50:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 14/03/2010 20:51:22
Quote:
But like I said, your true motive and gripe is not being able to gank PVE ships with your PVP gank squad of death. But you won't say this. You come under different pretenses. But meh, whatever.
I am currently doing 0% PvP, even felt like leaving my corp because I can't play long enough to be worthwhile. My true motive is that you can do like those who ganked in hi sec and managed to cheat CONCORD.
Or those in WoW who would go over the roofs to harass newbies since guards were not programmed to attack over roofs. The art of finding the little hole to subvert the game rules. Also called exploit.
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On paper? Have you even ever tried stuffing a T3 with ECCM and compared its efficiency with a non-ECCM version? You don't seem to even understand you're giving up DPS AND tank. You say you're a mission runner, but are you really? From what you say you don't seem to run missions a lot.
It's easy: do you do the PLEXes / whatever with the gimped setup or not?
If yes, then:
- you factored in the gimpage and still found out it's profitable enough to bother
- you factored in the gimpage and still can do the task, that is gimp or not it does the job, it's a job *enabler*. Without that cheat setup you would *not* be there. And thus you are exploiting the game taking advantages you should not take.
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Wouldn't you agree? But what I'm having trouble understanding is why would you think recons are fine and that they *should* be able to do their jobs in 100% safety while T3s shouldn't.
And where is it written that a T3 is meant to do its job without any risk?
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Then you change the conversation to "well, the interdiction nullifier makes it invulnerable". And then my response to you is that your problem is with the interdiction nullifier and why not ask CCP to nerf that instead?
Because that's a powerful mechanic that has been introduced to help T3 ships where they would be weak. That is an intended, calculated, planned, intended feature, with no side "fine math" or tricks to go beyond the limits.
T3 ships were made with that advantage in mind. It's players who decided to add another, so you get two powerful mechanics and one of them is beyond game engine management and thus an exploit.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.03.14 22:01:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha You could also catch pre-nerf nano ships and falcons!
Nano ships and falcons affected whole pvp aspect of the game, unprobeable ships affect only lazy carebear gankers.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The player can dock, turn in missions and get ammo in a cov ops or even a shuttle, all it takes is an alt.
Then you can catch his alt and he wont be able to do anything, only sit in space /same with cloaky ships/.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha As for changing system, it's what having multiple L4 Q20 agents in the system is for
You still have to return mission and refit or get ammo /and if you use alt for it it can be ganked/.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha and in case of real need to leave, it's still possible to come and go near downtime with impunity.
You can camp station all day if you have time, even near downtime.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha You trade the complete impossibility of doing a PLEX or mission there, with the possibility to do it.
So you are saying it should be completely impossible to do plexes or missions if there are enemy ships in system?
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess I'm talking about PvE aspect only here.
So being 'lol completely immune' why having a role in pvp is ok /cloaked ship scouting enemy/, but in pve /missionin ship/ its not...
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Proper decloaking is efficient only when target which jumped into camp cannot warp from its spot and has to fly ~10 km just to get out of the bubble. T3 has interdiction nullifier which helps to get out of the bubble anyway because even if you're decloaked, it's too late for campers.
Its still possible and if you are decloaked or you cant cloak because something is near you you are instalocked and dead /tbh not that hard with competent gatecamp because every new bubble popped will interrupt initiated warp/.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha All you need is to head on the mission forum to see what I am doing ATM: exclusively mission.
Hard to believe it - as missionrunner you are whining for l4 mission nerf and as carebear you are whining for nerf of unprobeable ships that dont affect you in any way.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha It's easy: do you do the PLEXes
You can probe down plexes even if you cant probe down ship. But i understand its hard for lazy ganker.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Without that cheat setup you would *not* be there.
Lies, many ppl ran 0.0 mission even without unprobable ships and its not cheat setup. Its same like saying that cloaks are cheating.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And thus you are exploiting the game taking advantages you should not take.
You are lying, its not exploit and cheating.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And where is it written that a T3 is meant to do its job without any risk?
They are not doing anything without risk.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha It's players who decided to add another, so you get two powerful mechanics and one of them is beyond game engine management and thus an exploit.
No, its working as intended and its not an exploit.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.14 22:11:00 -
[63]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 14/03/2010 22:16:40
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha T3 ships were made with that advantage in mind. It's players who decided to add another, so you get two powerful mechanics and one of them is beyond game engine management and thus an exploit.
It's impossible to have this discussion with you and we'll get nowhere fast. No need to even address your points. However, the above gem is probably the most laughable of all. If you think T3 pilots are exploiting game mechanics then feel free to petition them as exploiting game mechanics is against the EULA.
As was already said, this is about lazy gankers wanting their easy PVE kills. All I can say is good luck with your nerf crusade. That is all.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Slade Hoo
Amarr Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.03.14 22:25:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 14/03/2010 22:29:12 Edited by: Slade Hoo on 14/03/2010 22:27:09 Its not only about ganking carebears. There are other purposes for unscannable ships. I mentioned t3 fleet booster ships before. Before T3-Ships a commandship was vulnerable while running gang links because you can't use the links while being in warp or cloaked. Why did CCP do this? Because otherwise any commandship could warp permanently between several bookmarks and be invulnerable. Now with T3s ability to use ganglinks and being unscannable this mechanic is obsolete and you can exploit the game mechanic of warfare links by being unscannable. Either get rid of unscannable ships or make ganglinks be used in warp! Fleet commands were nerfed pretty hard with the introduction of T3 even without that scan mechanic.
------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.15 13:22:00 -
[65]
Quote:
If you think T3 pilots are exploiting game mechanics then feel free to petition them as exploiting game mechanics is against the EULA
You play safe here, because you know CCP are tolerating this side effect of an oudated system (the scanning vs sensor strength mechanics) because they could not "sell" T3 ships otherwise.
Also, exploiting does not equate to violate the EULA. It only becomes a bannable offense after the EULA gets changed to forbid that precise exploit, it's why everyone do them impunely before they are fixed.
Also, your resistance to PvP in a PvP game is peculiar. Did you lose too many autopiloted badgers in low sec in your early days? - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.03.16 04:02:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
If you think T3 pilots are exploiting game mechanics then feel free to petition them as exploiting game mechanics is against the EULA
You play safe here, because you know CCP are tolerating this side effect of an oudated system (the scanning vs sensor strength mechanics) because they could not "sell" T3 ships otherwise.
Lol. Yeah they are just totally useless, and the whole point of T3 was to fly around unprobeable.
Man this thread is stupid. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.16 15:59:00 -
[67]
Quote:
Lol. Yeah they are just totally useless, and the whole point of T3 was to fly around unprobeable.
Even with these tricks T3 still remain less played than marauders.
For being the CCP stated versatile ships with T2 alike cost (but without T2 0.0 alliances materials monopoly) it is not really a great achievement. Despite having squashed material costs on them, again and again. So the hidden pact comes: we get a blind eye or two about some peculiar... feature and you buy the ships because of them.
BTW a GM told me that they are aware of this ways of fitting and so far they are allowed but they reserve to change them. So don't plan to necessarily sit on the luck machine forever.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.03.16 16:30:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha BTW a GM told me that they are aware of this ways of fitting and so far they are allowed but they reserve to change them.
So wait...a GM told you that CCP reserves the right to rework game mechanics?
Was that really in doubt?
I mean honestly, did you really need a GM to tell you that CCP can change the way the game works if they want to? I don't think anyone here is harboring any illusions about that point. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.03.16 19:15:00 -
[69]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha BTW a GM told me that they are aware of this ways of fitting and so far they are allowed but they reserve to change them.
So wait...a GM told you that CCP reserves the right to rework game mechanics?
Was that really in doubt?
I mean honestly, did you really need a GM to tell you that CCP can change the way the game works if they want to? I don't think anyone here is harboring any illusions about that point.
Well they can certainly put a team on it in any case. :P -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Vizirion
The Deliberate Forces
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Posted - 2010.03.17 05:47:00 -
[70]
Just because almost all this ship's are flying in gay setup (covert cloak), i think they must be scannable.
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.17 14:30:00 -
[71]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 17/03/2010 14:30:29 Scanning became way too easy with apocrypha anyway. BTW how come your ship's signal strength inside a deadspace complex with tenn of structures and ships is greater then the signal strenght of this comlex? Ship's signal strength should be capped at complex's signal strength when you're inside IMO Furthermore, you're already reading my sig |
Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.03.18 00:52:00 -
[72]
not supported
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.03.18 07:06:00 -
[73]
Not supported as well. If t3's should be scannable, next in line would be my jag. It is hard to be unscannable (at least in a Loki), that in and on itself is a drawback.
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