Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Jovialmadness
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:40:00 -
[61]
Quote: Better solution. Exchange all T2 BPOs with enough matching BPCs to total a couple years' manufacturing time. It will take years to level the playing field, but eventually it will get there.
this immediately forces the holders to decide to sell all the bpc's immediately or simply produce them out off the bpc's flooding the markets with over stock. Some might hold the bpc's for a later sale date in the hopes they can get as much for them as possible others will lose isk on an over saturated market trying to offload their goods. You assume that all the former bpo holders that now have a stock of bpc's will produce off just one copy at a time and not multiples.
Selling copies would get pretty hectic as well. It's an idea bro but sounds painful regardless. |
Herring
Caldari Silver Snake Enterprise En Garde
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:41:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Akita T
TL;DR : the solution is not to change BPOs, but to make invention able to push out something like +20 ME / +20 PE relatively cheap per-run BPCs instead.
This tbqh.
I don't have any t2 bpo's but I've never had any hatred toward their owners; only toward the flawed invention system that never lets me get close to a researched print. You all need to get off the hate wagon that ccp has propagated here and look at the 'problem' from another angle.
Sometimes - and I know this is a foreign concept - it's better to improve one aspect of a game that seems weak rather than nerfing everything around it down to that level.
|
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:43:00 -
[63]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: nether void Solution. Keep invention in the game exactly the way it is now. Reintroduce the lottery system. Have both systems active at the same time.
Better solution. Exchange all T2 BPOs with enough matching BPCs to total a couple years' manufacturing time. It will take years to level the playing field, but eventually it will get there.
No, this would not level the playing field. It completely disregards one extremely important trait of the BPO: It's a store of value. You're asking that a lot of players be expected to eat a loss of billions over some perceived unfairness that is really quite marginal in actual practice.
Nevermind the immediate surge in production that would cause.
I've asked this before and you haven't answered it yet - do you actually DO production? Honestly, as an inventor, I find your fixation on this subject a little baffling. I am basically running an isk printing factory. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
LHA Tarawa
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 21:04:00 -
[64]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey You're asking that a lot of players be expected to eat a loss of billions over some perceived unfairness that is really quite marginal in actual practice.
If it is such a tiny advantage, then why do the ubber piowerful alliances spend tens of billions or more to get thier hands on these extremely valuable items?
If it is such a tiny advantage, then why not just do away with them and end all the arguments?
I think the advantage is much, much larger than you are asserting. Otherwise they would not be so expensive and there would not be such agressive response to suggestions of doing away with them.
|
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 21:36:00 -
[65]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey You're asking that a lot of players be expected to eat a loss of billions over some perceived unfairness that is really quite marginal in actual practice.
If it is such a tiny advantage, then why do the ubber piowerful alliances spend tens of billions or more to get thier hands on these extremely valuable items?
Do you have any idea how little money "tens of billions" is to any of the major alliances? Jesus.
Quote: If it is such a tiny advantage, then why not just do away with them and end all the arguments?
Because, for the third time, "People cry a lot" isn't a valid reason for a game mechanics change. Nor will it ever be.
Quote: I think the advantage is much, much larger than you are asserting. Otherwise they would not be so expensive and there would not be such agressive response to suggestions of doing away with them.
And I think I'm the King of Spain. So what? --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Jovialmadness
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 21:42:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 16/03/2010 21:42:49
Quote: If it is such a tiny advantage, then why do the ubber piowerful alliances spend tens of billions or more to get thier hands on these extremely valuable items?
If it is such a tiny advantage, then why not just do away with them and end all the arguments?
I think the advantage is much, much larger than you are asserting. Otherwise they would not be so expensive and there would not be such agressive response to suggestions of doing away with them.
They spend the isk because they have it and you dont. Same reason they buy titans and moms and you cant.
They arent and werent removed becuase they dont hurt the economy they help it working side by side with invention. The only ones that argue are the ones that dont have the isk or the prints.
the advantage is very big and so is the the isk investment. i invest isk(which you dont have but could get if you would shut up and earned it) to have an advantage. others invest time and energy to gain isk through invention. bpos=less time energy big isk investment....invention=low isk investment but big time and energy.
This is not WOW with all due respect to that phrase. Wow is a game where everyone can achieve everything through time and energy.
EVE REQUIRES BOTH TIME AND ENERGY AND ISK. isk is what you lack cause you are whining and 6 months old.
GBTW
Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
|
LHA Tarawa
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 21:51:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Jovialmadness They spend the isk because they have it and you dont. Same reason they buy titans and moms and you cant.
(CUT)
the advantage is very big and so is the the isk investment.
You people arguing against me need to get together and decide how big of an advantage they are.... all in my head.... or very big justifying 100s of billions of ISK.
Truth be told, my "larger goal" is (and from what CCP has stated) to remove the competative advantages that result in few, very rich and powerful ubber alliances and create a much more fluid environment where alliances eb and flow, come and go.
ABCs have been dealt with. Moon goo has been worked on and has yet to play out.
The obvious next target of special advantage are the T2 BPOs.
It takes ISK to make ISK. I want it to take ISK, and LOTS and LOTS of ongoing effort from a large number of highly dedicated player to make HUGE ISK. Only then can smaller but hungrier alliances have a chance of eventually growing into a power that can challenge the current ubber alliances.
|
Jovialmadness
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 22:00:00 -
[68]
Quote: Truth be told, my "larger goal" is (and from what CCP has stated) to remove the competative advantages that result in few, very rich and powerful ubber alliances and create a much more fluid environment where alliances eb and flow, come and go
WoW is ---->
Yes the advantage is big. i spend 3 hours every week or so putting the bpo's on the cooker for a set amount of modules and ships. The payout is steady but easy. ive paid alot for that advantage.
WHEN I REFER TO BIG ADVANTAGE I REFER TO IT IN TERMS OF ACTUAL EASE OF PRODUCTION NOT ISK MAKING IN GENERAL.
Inventors have to go through more to make the same isk but they can make more and alter their production in a snap if the product goes south in the markets. T2 bpo's have but one advantage. steady easy production for steady income that is no where near as good as it used to be. invention has multiple advantages and that is larger production volume and quicker capability to change production types.
bpo holders would have to sell theirs everytime they saw a market dive and that aint gonna happen often. |
SurrenderMonkey
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 22:37:00 -
[69]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Jovialmadness They spend the isk because they have it and you dont. Same reason they buy titans and moms and you cant.
(CUT)
the advantage is very big and so is the the isk investment.
You people arguing against me need to get together and decide how big of an advantage they are
The advantage he is talking about is convenience. The advantage I am talking about is earning potential. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Hand That Feeds
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 10:23:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Caldari 5 Seeing a boost to invention would be awesome, I would personally like to see the Runs/ME/PE of the T1 BPCs effect the Runs/ME/PE of the outputed T2 BPCs.
At the moment there is no effect on ship BPC invention. Lets use frigates for an example if you drop in a Max Run(30)/ME 50/PE 20 BPC you get out by default a 1 run/ME -4/PE -4 T2 BPC, which is exactly the same output that you would get from a 1 run/ME 0/PE 0 T1 BPC, to me this is just all manner of broken.
I think CCP should be encouraging the use of better BPCs for invention, I not sure on the specifics of what they should do, but even seeing a 1/10 output would be a good start. Example if you drop in a Max Run(30)/ME 50/PE 20 BPC you get out by default a 3 run/ME 5/PE 2 T2 BPC.
Fleshing out my previous idea. Using a direct 1/10 output is fine and dandy for the exact 10,20,30,etc levels but didn't allow for the 11,12,13,14,etc levels. Now given that you can't have a 1.1,1.2,1.3,1.4,etc output, maybe the remainder is a percentage chance to get +1, eg 11 gives 1 + (10% chance to get +1) 12 gives 1 + (20% chance to get +1) and 23 gives 2 + (30% chance to get +1) 44 gives 4 + (40% chance to get +1) etc etc etc
Also keep the existing decryptors and their effects. |
|
Dana Mownhobbit
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 13:55:00 -
[71]
This actually sounds like a really nice idea. And maybe there could be new skills wich further increase the chance or the factor, how much ME/PE the T2 BPC inherits from it's T1 ingredient. So we would have another delay and isk-sink, but eventually after months and years of research and skill learning the invention T2 BPC could come close to the BPOs in terms of efficiency.
The low ratio of ME-level inheritance would also allow the market shift to happen slowly without aprupt changes which might screw someone. And it also would increase the value of T1 BPOs AND copies with ridiculously high ME/PE-levels which are of little effect today (for all ME higher than XX perfect ME). On the other side the lab slots for ME would become even more crowded I guess... But I still like the idea.
I'd really wish for a dev statement on that whole matter. Not about nerfing/removing T2 BPOs, but why the invention couldn't possibly been buffed. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 15:35:00 -
[72]
There's no way to "fix" this thing.
You can't just hope to have people part off the T2 BPOs and really achieve anything.
The fat income is off the years and years ago accrued advantage. Sure, take the T2 BPO away, when nowadays it brings some % of more income. Oh wait, they made the hundreds of billions years ago, and you cannot also take those off. Those who buy the T2 BPOs in these days are:
- pure collectors (= don't care about the income) and they are no danger
- those using BPOs for the reselling opportunity => they make some % margin but don't affect the game enough and they will part off the BPOs anyway. You can get a BPO like they do and do like them.
- those who just want the BPO for the sake of feeling "status symbol". Again, nothing you can't get yourself and they are not out to make the zillions.
What screws you is that you can have a T2 BPO now and still it'd bring you no good. The good times are over, the sacks of money have been made before you even started playing and now the cash cow is quite dried up, expecially when acquiring a T2 BPO requires the equivalent of a couple years worth of income. Of course, with the constantly increasing risk of something new coming out to make T2 obsolete. Then you'll be the one with the short stick in his hand. |
JASON W0RTHING
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 18:07:00 -
[73]
If I ever want to troll S&I I know what topic to choose now. |
Jovialmadness
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 18:09:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 19/03/2010 18:10:10
Quote: Word is BPOs are being given limits. Thats fine it will fix the problem eventually. But a simpler solution would be to reset the efficiency on T2 BPOs at -2.
I want somebody to come in here and prove to me that T2 prices will go DOWN if this were to happen. It might can be argued the prices won't necessarily go up but I'd be willing to wager market prices will increase in value overall before they go down.
Now if invention is made more profitable you can be rest assured prices will drop.
If the whine brigade were to win I'd much rather, for obvious personal financial reasons, see invention get enhanced. I'm sure all inventors would too. If that happened bpo owners win, inventors win and inevitably consumers win. |
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 18:21:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
I want somebody to come in here and prove to me that T2 prices will go DOWN if this were to happen. It might can be argued the prices won't necessarily go up but I'd be willing to wager market prices will increase in value overall before they go down.
What does this have to do with the price of tea in Jovian space? |
Jovialmadness
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 18:24:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 19/03/2010 18:28:50
Quote: What does this have to do with the price of tea in Jovian space?
*sigh* why do you guys even try....
Try this on for size. Dude wants t2 bpo's to have set me/pe whatever. He wants this to make it fair whatever. Dude doesn't think how this will affect the economy. So yea we make the actual production of the goods similar but all we can hope for is prices to remain the same if not go up. Make invention more profitable and you offer more wiggle room for price reduction for sure.
Got that? |
Zatler
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 22:51:00 -
[77]
there in game are too many inventors because they got low profits, bpo nerf or invention boost dont solve problem, also many people alredy invested lots of bilions in t2 bluprints soo
CCP please dont change anything t2 bpo is crown of all industry |
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 00:15:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
*sigh* why do you guys even try....
Try this on for size. Dude wants t2 bpo's to have set me/pe whatever. He wants this to make it fair whatever. Dude doesn't think how this will affect the economy. So yea we make the actual production of the goods similar but all we can hope for is prices to remain the same if not go up. Make invention more profitable and you offer more wiggle room for price reduction for sure.
This passage may be pertinent to the thread topic but its non sequitur to the passage I quoted and mocked. And that passage was non sequitur to the thread subject.
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Got that?
I think what we all get that is you have now spoken more than you have thought. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 08:41:00 -
[79]
1. How much profit can I make from invention. 2. Great that's enough. 3. Profit-- 4. Hmm, that's not enough profit, I guess I'll stop inventing. 5. Profit++ 6. Goto 1
Short of making invention HARDER or RISKIER the profit is only ever going to go down. Making it safer, and less risky, will always make the profit go down. The same goes for anything, in real life or the game.
Whether T2 BPOs exist or not makes exactly 0 difference to how much profit there is in invention, except in the case where it actually increases the profit on some items because people believe that they are competing against BPOs, and not other inventors, and so don't compete.
The difference in item cost between ME100+ and ME-4 can in many cases be pretty much 0 isk. In those cases the only disadvantage invention has is the datacore cost (which is steadily decreasing over time). Basically, the BPOs are being continually devalued anyway. It's basically only ships, and larger ones at that, that have any real build cost advantage, and in those cases it is usually negated by people who build at advanced ship arrays with 20% waste, ie, worse than what you already get from invention, once you take into account that NO ONE researches a T2 ship BPO to ME20 because the cost difference over ME1-3 to ME20 is negligible anyway. |
Athar Mu
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 20:49:00 -
[80]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Athar Mu Dunno what you are inventing but I'm making a ton of isk off invention.
Like I always ask in threads like this;
'Why whenever I do the maths for inventing Marauders it is always not profitable? Cos they don't have BPO's, and by following your logic they should be profitable because they don't have a T2 BPO making them unprofitable. Or has someone managed to get a BPO for them and not told anyone?!'
If the T2 BPO complaints were really about the ability to make money, this would pretty much be the end of it. The complaint isn't centered around the ability to make money, though, nor even around actual "fairness" - merely the perception of fairness.
I suppose you are right, but most of the time when these threads come up its phrased as 'T2 BPO owners make more isk than me, I want one so I can make more isk than them, give me one or take them away cos I don't want to spend lots of isk getting one and I didn't start the game early enough to get one/didn't try to get one when they were available through the lottery.' It just frustrates me!! I didn't start the game early enough to get one and I don't want spend that much isk to buy one, but I make lots of isk off invention and its fine by me.
I like the suggestion of making ME/PE of the T1 BPO affect the ME/PE of the T2 BPC. That would make me even more isk which would be nice.
I really hope CCP don't cave into the whiners and remove or change T2 BPO's but alter invention instead.
|
|
Voogru
Gallente Massive Damage MACHI MISCHIEF
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 22:18:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Voogru on 20/03/2010 22:20:02
Originally by: Athar Mu I like the suggestion of making ME/PE of the T1 BPO affect the ME/PE of the T2 BPC. That would make me even more isk which would be nice.
I really hope CCP don't cave into the whiners and remove or change T2 BPO's but alter invention instead.
CCP can not make invention more profitable unless they add risk. Players are the ones driving down the profits. If they make it so invention is twice as efficient as T2 BPO's, inventors still are competing against other inventors.
The competition between these inventors will drive down the prices. You have to remember that inventors are the ones that brought cap recharger II's from 20 million ISK down to 500-750k, not the T2 BPO owners.
Any changes made to invention that make you more profit, you will eventually be competing against the next guy that decides to take less profit than you.
If you really want profit in invention, then make it low sec pos only, or at the very least, pos only.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 22:51:00 -
[82]
In a few words the OP says:
"Remove T2 BPOs because I don't have any".
OP could probably build a solid case before invention was introduced, when ppl were abusing their BPOs, making enormous profits from simple T2 items (I think it was Cap Recharger II and may be some other items). After invention, those super profits don't exist, if T2 item price is going through the roof, it becomes profitable for invention and this brings the price down. No need to touch T2 BPOs now. May be invention could be made a bit easier, or success rates tweaked, but destroying T2 BPOs would ruin the game for many ppl, only to appease some whiners.
|
Emporer Norton
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 23:45:00 -
[83]
I'd just like some type of way to invent a t2 bpc with a positive me the people saying there is no difference between a -4 me and a +100 bpc are right on the majority of modules but for ships the difference is very significant For things like t2 bs where there is no bpo is equal for everyone but if was a way to invent with a positive me would give ability for more profit and/or lower prices or just leave everything as it is but make a skill for example advanced production eff all t2 items produced as if me was +2/lvl higher or something along those lines
|
Barbicane
TGUN Industries
|
Posted - 2010.03.21 13:26:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Emporer Norton I'd just like some type of way to invent a t2 bpc with a positive me... if was a way to invent with a positive me would give ability for more profit and/or lower prices
It's been said before but I will repeat it again: If you could get higher ME on your invented BPCs, then so could all the other inventors. The profit (or lack thereof) from invention would remain exactly the same. T2 prices might fall a bit but you would not make more profit.
|
Llyandrian
Amarr Livestock Science Exchange
|
Posted - 2010.03.21 14:02:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ghoest Not not that they dont require invention - its the great efficiency relative to invented BPOs(even with decryptors).
Word is BPOs are being given limits. Thats fine it will fix the problem eventually. But a simpler solution would be to reset the efficiency on T2 BPOs at -2.
Basically limit the bonus profit to invention savings.
And while they are at it CCP should turn all those pesky Navy ships into T1 ships, all those Officer mods and implants into standard, all those rare Technetium moons into hydrocarbon, all those outposts into POS, share out all the ISK and equalise all the skill points to ensure fairness.
Yeh! right on comrade!
|
Equinocs
|
Posted - 2010.03.21 22:41:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Llyandrian
And while they are at it CCP should turn all those pesky Navy ships into T1 ships, all those Officer mods and implants into standard, all those rare Technetium moons into hydrocarbon, all those outposts into POS, share out all the ISK and equalise all the skill points to ensure fairness.
Yeh! right on comrade!
That was uncalled for, there has been enough flaming already.
While i agree that changing invention and/or T2-BPOs will most likely have little effect on the actual profit one can make (due to competition, etc.) changing invention in that the ME/PE of the BPO effect the ME/PE of the BPC would - if nothing else - make non T2-BPO owners feel not quiet so left out.
Hell, just add skill that's lets us carry over 10% or 5% of the stats of the BPO per level. One less reason for people to ***** about T2-BPO owners and one more reason for them to think about before they open up threads like these.
|
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2010.03.22 04:23:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Estephania In a few words the OP says:
"Remove T2 BPOs because I don't have any".
OP could probably build a solid case before invention was introduced, when ppl were abusing their BPOs, making enormous profits from simple T2 items (I think it was Cap Recharger II and may be some other items). After invention, those super profits don't exist, if T2 item price is going through the roof, it becomes profitable for invention and this brings the price down. No need to touch T2 BPOs now. May be invention could be made a bit easier, or success rates tweaked, but destroying T2 BPOs would ruin the game for many ppl, only to appease some whiners.
In other words this poster said "I like to have sex with ducks."
Oh wait she didnt say that. Thats just something negative made up but with in the scope of possibility that I said to discredit her.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2010.03.22 09:20:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Barbicane
Originally by: Emporer Norton I'd just like some type of way to invent a t2 bpc with a positive me... if was a way to invent with a positive me would give ability for more profit and/or lower prices
It's been said before but I will repeat it again: If you could get higher ME on your invented BPCs, then so could all the other inventors. The profit (or lack thereof) from invention would remain exactly the same. T2 prices might fall a bit but you would not make more profit.
Worse, because the difference between decryptors would be reduced, invention profit would be reduced also, as it takes much of the skill out of decryptor selection. The reason invention produces -ve ME is so that the decryptors actually DO something. If you started with ME0, all the decryptors in the world would only save you less than 10%. As it stands, for items, the -ve ME is inconsequential.
|
Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.03.22 13:10:00 -
[89]
Actually the real problem with T2 BPO's are the forum warrior(s) and their army of alts constantly posting asking for a change when none is required.
|
Jovialmadness
|
Posted - 2010.03.22 14:57:00 -
[90]
Quote: This passage may be pertinent to the thread topic but its non sequitur to the passage I quoted and mocked. And that passage was non sequitur to the thread subject.
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Got that?
I think what we all get that is you have now spoken more than you have thought.
uh dude? Both passages were the same. I just made the second more simple to read. I won't call you a name because of that
just admit that all of your wanting has led to a discussion that has proven that no evidence what so ever has been produced to validate ner***e of T2 bpo's. Of course this will not be admitted to because the truth is it's all about the jealousy. That's ok though bra. Jealousy is a good thing for people with ambition in game. It makes them achieve. Unfortunately though people without the ambition who are jealous simply run to the forums and holler. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |