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Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1032
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Posted - 2012.07.26 16:03:00 -
[121] - Quote
Two step wrote:I'd suggest you direct your disappointment to the CSM reps who didn't write any minutes, not to the ones that did, and have mostly been posting in this thread.
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:It is my view that working on the production of the minutes is the price you pay for actually getting to go to Iceland, and that if you don't go, any work you do is done out of the goodness of your heart.
Seleene (Chairman) No work done, though did write three mammoth blog posts on the summit, to keep the playerbase informed. These posts most closely resembled the minutes of old. So in a sense, players got their minutes exceptionally quickly due to Seleene, while the much larger report was being written, compiled and approved.
Trebor Daehdoow (Vice Chairman) CSM Intro / Whitepaper, Stakeholder, Player Experience - Launcher, Art, EVE Economy, New Player Experience.
Two Step (Secretary) EVE/DUST Link, Starbase Rework, Content.
Elise Randolph Live Events, Ship Balance.
Greene Lee No work done. Language issue, as Russian is his first language.
Kelduum Revaan No work done, not even on his pet interests New Player Experience, Corporate Management or Crimewatch.
UAxDEATH No work done. Language issue, as Russian is his first language.
Hans Jagerblitzen (Vice Secretary) Corporation Management, EVE UI, Wardecs and Crimewatch, Faction Warfare, Treaties.
Meissa Anunthiel No work done.
Dovinian Security
Issler Dainze Industry and Mining
Alekseyev Karrde State of Incarna, Nullsec
Darius III No work done. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1032
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Posted - 2012.07.26 16:05:00 -
[122] - Quote
(post removed) The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Servjen
Industrial and Mining Enterprises
5
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Posted - 2012.07.26 17:53:00 -
[123] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Oh come on. It's not had to out someone who has contributed little to nothing in the process. Also if your plate is already full with other obligations and you want to run for CSM too; you deserve to be ejected after it becomes obvious you have no time for it. "yeah but they are busy with other stuff so it's ok" is a bullshit excuse no one should except.
And if for som reason the workload at home unexpectedly increased? For example a major customer was acquired in between the moment he or she was elected and the summit? Or a colleague went sick or quit?
i'm saying that somthimse things won't go as planed. and of course free riders arn't that good for the CSM as a hole but it is somthing for the CSM to discus it intunaly and ask/force members that arn't doin anything without a good reason to step down and let a alternate take their place. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
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Posted - 2012.07.26 21:47:00 -
[124] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Oh come on. It's not had to out someone who has contributed little to nothing in the process. Also if your plate is already full with other obligations and you want to run for CSM too; you deserve to be ejected after it becomes obvious you have no time for it. "yeah but they are busy with other stuff so it's ok" is a bullshit excuse no one should except.
There are strengths that people bring to the table. If a Person is good at typing and have the ability to process a lot, then that is their strength, Others may bring in valuable contacts, do constructive work that is out side of of the public eye. They may excel at bringing forth ideas, Insite and solutions form others in the community.
From the Chair Person I would see a summary of value provided by the members of the remaining members of the CSM. and how well they contributed. I would also like to see one from Trebour.. but please refrain from including those who are not included in the current CSM.
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
348
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Posted - 2012.07.30 00:12:00 -
[125] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:Oh come on. It's not had to out someone who has contributed little to nothing in the process. Also if your plate is already full with other obligations and you want to run for CSM too; you deserve to be ejected after it becomes obvious you have no time for it. "yeah but they are busy with other stuff so it's ok" is a bullshit excuse no one should except. There are strengths that people bring to the table. If a Person is good at typing and have the ability to process a lot, then that is their strength, Others may bring in valuable contacts, do constructive work that is out side of of the public eye. They may excel at bringing forth ideas, Insite and solutions form others in the community. From the Chair Person I would see a summary of value provided by the members of the remaining members of the CSM. and how well they contributed. I would also like to see one from Trebour.. but please refrain from including those who are not included in the current CSM.
Pretty sure noone voted for anyone on the present CSM for their typing skills.
Also, asking the chair for their OPINION regarding some other candidates' worth is silly as they could have other reasons for outing whoever they like. The chair also has to consider the next election. (Not that I think he would do that, but it's a bad precedent).
If anyone should get in on this, CCP would be the obvious choice for an opinion not tainted ;) CSM7 Skype Leak
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MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1051
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Posted - 2012.07.30 08:53:00 -
[126] - Quote
how much loooooonger lol
but serious;y did CCP at least finish green lighting the last one? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
364
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Posted - 2012.07.30 09:39:00 -
[127] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:how much loooooonger lol
but serious;y did CCP at least finish green lighting the last one? Last tweet from devs sayed today. |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
238
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Posted - 2012.07.30 13:25:00 -
[128] - Quote
But the closer it gets, the more impatient I become :( |
Lunataria
Blackstar Privateer Consortium Enigma Project
23
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Posted - 2012.07.30 19:20:00 -
[129] - Quote
Considering most devs have probably left work in iceland for the day by now, when can we expect the minutes to come out? |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
365
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Posted - 2012.07.30 19:25:00 -
[130] - Quote
Lunataria wrote:Considering most devs have probably left work in iceland for the day by now, when can we expect the minutes to come out? No word though I did ask the right people over twitter.
Have you read the new devblog?
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Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
185
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Posted - 2012.07.30 23:45:00 -
[131] - Quote
PLEASE CCP release the HOUNDS.... err um CSM MINUTES!!! Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Marconus Orion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
369
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Posted - 2012.07.31 15:53:00 -
[132] - Quote
When is the next summit? I think we are closer to it than the last one by now. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
248
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Posted - 2012.07.31 16:16:00 -
[133] - Quote
Perhaps if the minutes are going to take 2 months to write and get checked, a little less transparency would be better?
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Marconus Orion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
369
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Posted - 2012.07.31 16:26:00 -
[134] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Perhaps if the minutes are going to take 2 months to write and get checked, a little less transparency would be better?
The minutes don't take two months to write, even with keep things as transparent as possible. The issue is and has always been; CSM waiting two months after the summit to decide to start writing the minutes. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1037
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Posted - 2012.07.31 17:07:00 -
[135] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:The minutes don't take two months to write ... They do when they're nearly two hundred pages long, brainiac.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Marconus Orion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
369
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Posted - 2012.07.31 17:49:00 -
[136] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:The minutes don't take two months to write ... They do when they're nearly two hundred pages long, brainiac. 15 pages per CSM takes 2 months?? |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1038
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Posted - 2012.07.31 17:59:00 -
[137] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:The minutes don't take two months to write ... They do when they're nearly two hundred pages long, brainiac. 15 pages per CSM takes 2 months?? Five CSM did not take part, most notably Kelduum Revaan.
As well, this is not their full-time job. They do this part time. Also, factor in back-and-forth between CSM/CCP.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
57
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Posted - 2012.07.31 18:03:00 -
[138] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:The minutes don't take two months to write ... They do when they're nearly two hundred pages long, brainiac. 15 pages per CSM takes 2 months?? Probably not, but if you take into account that several CSM members did not write them (Even if they participated actively in discussing them), you have 8 members to write those pages, then probably make sure that the CSM agreed about content, then run it past CCP for NDA verification, then edit it, run it past the CSM again ... If the relevant CCP people are on vacation (As we've been told and seen that a large part of CCP has been over the summer), then we can look at 8 people writing in a month and then not being able to get it checked/edited/whatever. Furthermore, the CSM has stated that the first CSM summit was more about the future than the past or the around-next-corner-stuff, so as long as that is true I'd rather have details and such two months after the summit (So a month or two before it gets really relevant), than I'd have twenty pages immediate after the summit, detailing what happened last year. If what we've been told is true (That the summit concerned the future, and the minutes are detailed with who said what and further transparency) I have no reason to question the wait. If it's not true, then I agree.
It's about waiting for something we can use, instead of getting eighteen pages about last year and two pages about what CCP are going to do the next three months. |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
75
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Posted - 2012.07.31 18:04:00 -
[139] - Quote
so... they said monday, but they didn't say of wich week, that's the trick ? |
Marconus Orion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
369
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Posted - 2012.07.31 19:08:00 -
[140] - Quote
All I hear are excuses. |
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Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1039
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Posted - 2012.07.31 19:11:00 -
[141] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:All I hear are excuses. All I hear is a sense of entitlement.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Marconus Orion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
369
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Posted - 2012.07.31 19:13:00 -
[142] - Quote
Is it too much to ask for in depth detailed minutes the day after the summits are over? |
Marconus Orion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
369
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Posted - 2012.07.31 19:14:00 -
[143] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:All I hear are excuses. All I hear is a sense of entitlement. Comes with the subscription. |
None ofthe Above
312
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Posted - 2012.07.31 20:18:00 -
[144] - Quote
FYI - From Twitter today:
Quote: CCP_Manifest GÇÅ@CCP_Manifest
CSM minutes will be out this week. Final internal pass with people on vacation is tough.
EVE is a sandbox; The only "end-game" content in EVE is the crap that makes you rage-quit.
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
595
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Posted - 2012.07.31 20:24:00 -
[145] - Quote
The tough part of those vacations would be working, while your vacation people keep sending pics of all the fun they are doing. Bonus damage, for sending them while your co-workers are in meetings. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
57
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Posted - 2012.07.31 20:43:00 -
[146] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:All I hear are excuses. All I hear is a sense of entitlement. Comes with the subscription. AFAIK, CSM people aren't paid by your subscription, so ... hmm ... no.
And if you desire to hear excuses then you'll hear excuses, reality be damned. I don't think anyone can change that over the internet, it's hard enough IRL. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2697
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Posted - 2012.07.31 21:11:00 -
[147] - Quote
The minutes will be released the minute that both CCP and the CSM agree on the contents. It's easy to say "minutes on Monday" if you assume that every edit will be approved by every party involved. As Poetic observed, minutes creation is a bit of ping-pong - we send our copy to CCP, they look it over, make changes, we get it back, if there's a change or deletion we don't like, we make our points and send it back. The only thing holding up the minutes at this point is the final stage of this process - in particular a conversation about a few items that were borderline-NDA that the CSM preferred remain in the final minutes. Many thanks to CCP Manifest for his flexibility and hard work getting all the necessary approvals and permissions so that we can get these out very soon. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Marconus Orion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
369
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Posted - 2012.07.31 21:32:00 -
[148] - Quote
I just want to, for once, read about the intent and direction the game is going before it actually happens. Waiting for key people to go on vacation before you get the minutes done is terrible planning. You can say I'm over reacting all you want, but I'm just being practical. No one forced them to take on the task of being a CSM representative. They wanted it. They got it. Volunteer or not; procrastination of this magnitude is never acceptable. Have people in your group/team who do nothing is not acceptable either. Replace them. No rules in place to do so? Make them. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1042
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Posted - 2012.07.31 22:10:00 -
[149] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:[Having] people in your group/team who do nothing is not acceptable either. Replace them. No rules in place to do so? Make them. It would be a dream to have slackers like Darius III and Kelduum Revaan kicked from the CSM.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
None ofthe Above
313
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Posted - 2012.07.31 22:46:00 -
[150] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:I just want to, for once, read about the intent and direction the game is going before it actually happens. Waiting for key people to go on vacation before you get the minutes done is terrible planning. You can say I'm over reacting all you want, but I'm just being practical. No one forced them to take on the task of being a CSM representative. They wanted it. They got it. Volunteer or not; procrastination of this magnitude is never acceptable. Have people in your group/team who do nothing is not acceptable either. Replace them. No rules in place to do so? Make them.
While I do think a procedure for removing bad/useless CSM members is worthy of considering, as I am all for reform and accountability... a couple of counter-points:
* Not sure if any on the current CSM really need it. I think certain factions/individuals like to spread rumors of internal discord in the CSM to devalue it, for whatever reason. (This is not pointed at Poetic necessarily, btw.) Outside of Darius, as far as I can tell the CSM has actually been getting along pretty well. The initial kerfuffle with Issler was seized upon and sensationalized. Even Darius as I understand it isn't as much at odds with this CSM as he was with the last, although as ever doesn't seem to be a team player.
* These are passionate volunteers. It's not their job. They aren't getting paid. (Aside from the trip to Iceland for some of them, and they generally work there, it's not a vacation.) Its understandable if real life interferes with their volunteer duties from time to time (but that should be taken into account later in the next election).
* So far any lost CSM are just lost, no replacements. So if you do get someone removed, its not going free up a spot for someone else to come in. That also could be changed, but is it really feasible?
So the mechanism as it stands is for us to remember and use that knowledge when we vote next time.
--
On the timeliness of the Minutes side, I tend to agree. It is important to balance the extra detail with timeliness, since as time passes the detail becomes less relevant. As Poetic pointed out, Seleene and Two Step did a good job on preliminary reports that nearly rose to the level of minutes of the past, and that was a very good thing -- although teasing us with hints of even more insight.
I think most of us understand that there were significant extenuating circumstances to the delay of this year's minutes (largely new CSM, some crazy politics, a lot more data captured at the summit and earlier delays let this run into CCPs vacation time) and so are willing to cut some slack. Hopefully next time they will be able to turn this around quicker.
As much as I am eager to see the minutes and have my own frustrations about them not being ready yet, I very much appreciate the effort the CSM and CCP is going through to raise the bar and improve the process. EVE is a sandbox; The only "end-game" content in EVE is the crap that makes you rage-quit.
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