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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.16 22:12:00 -
[1]
As it stands right now a capital ship can transverse all over EVE quickly to pew easily. You are only limited by the logisitics of someone opening a cyno. Everything from hot drops to taking over systems and even to defending an invading fleet. Deciding where to dedicate capitals should require more thought than simply, "Do you have enough fuel and is the cyno in place?"
I propose, and I know I say some crazy ideas, but please think about how this would change capital ship movements before you jump in with the flame thrower.
A new skill to be introduced that is a ranked as high as Jump Drive Calibration or a tad higher called "Jump Drive Stability (or whatever, does not matter tbh).
This skill for each level increased the total amount a player can jump within a 24 hr. period. It would also take 12 hours to gain a jump. For example:
I have have 5 jumps saved up and use 3 jumps to get to a system to pew a tower with my dread. How fast you use the jumps does not matter. 12 hours after I burned that first jump, I will gain the ability to do a jump. 12 hrs after I gained that 1 jump, I gain another. For a total of 5 max if you have the above said skill trained to 5.
This would mean that where I decide to jump I need to be sure is worth it. This would make the strategy of capital movements have more meaning. Move your whole capital force all the way across eve to pew? Sure, but what about the home front?
This would also decrease the blobbage some as well (as far as capital blob goes) I think. Enemy that controls a territory that moved 90% of their capital force across the other side of EVE? Well, taking over a system will be a lot easier for a smaller entity. Which would mean if you have space to defend then I don't think you would be that foolish.
This of course will not prevent the enemy from using other non-caps to blob you out but it will slow down the capital ship deployment in Blitzgrieg style to wherever you want and still be able to blitz back to home/wherever else without a second thought.
More strategy, less blob. Again, please think about how the dynamics would change for not just capital ships alone but defending and attacking space would be.
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King Rothgar
Violent By Design Rough Necks
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Posted - 2010.03.16 22:21:00 -
[2]
Interesting idea. What I see happening is the defender can field 100 capitals since they just happened to be 1 jump away, the attacker could only muster 3 capital alts because everyone else didn't feel like spending 2 days of real life time traveling to the target region. So yeah, opposed.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.03.16 23:34:00 -
[3]
I like your idea and it isn't as crazy as you think. Eve should be a large universe and traveling across the galaxy back and forth should take time. ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
DuKackBoon
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Posted - 2010.03.16 23:43:00 -
[4]
Slowing them down EVEN MORE? Hell no. But I'd introduce a certain traveling time.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.03.17 00:08:00 -
[5]
As if attacking wasn't horrible enough already? ___
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Slade Hoo
Amarr Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.03.17 00:20:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 17/03/2010 00:21:06
Originally by: Grarr Dexx As if attacking wasn't horrible enough already?
You still can attack what you want. But with this idea attacking with capital sized ships requires more strategical planning because with your capital fleet you can't reinforce a system in delve in the morning, help some blues in catch at noon and defend your home border in branch in the evening and do some logistics between the ops. I really like the strategical possibilities of this. You can go with your sub-cap ships where you want to, but capitals will be more static and strategic which suits their role pretty good.
edit: I'd exclude jump freighters from this. No reason to limit them at all. ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.17 00:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Slade Hoo Edited by: Slade Hoo on 17/03/2010 00:21:06
Originally by: Grarr Dexx As if attacking wasn't horrible enough already?
You still can attack what you want. But with this idea attacking with capital sized ships requires more strategical planning because with your capital fleet you can't reinforce a system in delve in the morning, help some blues in catch at noon and defend your home border in branch in the evening and do some logistics between the ops. I really like the strategical possibilities of this. You can go with your sub-cap ships where you want to, but capitals will be more static and strategic which suits their role pretty good.
edit: I'd exclude jump freighters from this. No reason to limit them at all.
all or nothing. logistics would need to slow down aswell.
but your slow down idea would just fail anyway. i am pretty sure that the result will be that the big alliances will have multiple alliance/corp cap fleets and they just pod express between the different cap fleets. iirc PL had like 3-4 dread fleets ready to go. i am sure the other big boys do aswell and if they dont have them already, they will once that proposal goes life. so in the end you punish the small guys who cant afford that.
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Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2010.03.17 02:21:00 -
[8]
Hmm, how about combining cynos with wormholes? Essentially, a cyno generator could be said to be opening an artificial pathway through w-space, so when a cyno is opened and a capital jumps to it, instead of being taken directly to the cyno beacon, they would first of all be taken into a W-space system, on grid with a wormhole (that would only remain there as long as the beacon was active, and would only work in one direction), but not necesarily within jump range of it. Depending on the distance being jumped, perhaps the skill of the cyno pilot (cyno theory), and perhaps a new skill for the cap pilot, the maximum distance to the out-hole could be varied.
An interesting variation on this could be that if a capital is jumping directly from w-space, the cyno could operate as it does now. Essentially, the cyno creates a tear between the dimensions, one in and one out, so if the capital is already in w-space, it only needs an out-hole. This could mean that for well organised and planned ops, w-space systems could be used as staging points for the op. They would take more planning, and it would be much more difficult to get massive amounts of capital ships there, so that might limit the size of battles. It would also make it harder to defend large expanses of space, because the more spread out your capital fleet, the harder it would be to gather them together, so it would be necessary to keep capital fleets in the systems that are most necessary to defend.
What this would introduce is an element of risk to using a jumpdrive. Since you would be travelling through w-space, there's always a chance there will be somebody in the system you have to travel through. If you're really unlucky, they may be able to spot you on scanner and probe you out before you can make it to your out-hole, so ships may be lost in transit. This might actually have a nice effect of stopping the stupid hotdrops that go on in lowsec. There are corps that will hotdrop multiple carriers on solo cruisers, just because they can. If hotdropping was only possible if you first moved all the capitals that will be involved into w-space, perhaps they would only do it on targets that actually warranted it.
Perhaps there could be a difference between short range and long range jumps? A bit like guns having optimal and falloff ranges. If the jump is within "optimal" range, you might land right on top of the out-hole, or even go directly to the beacon, but as you enter falloff, the distance to the out-hole becomes greater. Perhaps, if you try to jump to a cyno that's totally out of range, rather than simply failing as it does now, it could dump you in the wrong w-space system, or even just off grid from the out-hole. This would necessitate better jump planning.
Then there could be a small chance that sleepers will see the new hole being created, and either swarm to it inside w-space, adding risk for the capital ship, or even swarm through it to the cyno ship. They could then liven things up a bit in whatever battle might take place on the other side.
Obviously there would be the risk of getting stuck in w-space if the cyno ship was destroyed while you were in there. Yet more risk.
Basically, it could all be balanced so that the quicker you're trying to move a cap fleet around, the more risky it is. It could be possible to move faster than it is now, perhaps with absolute maximum jump ranges up to double what they currently are, but optimal jump ranges could be halved (or less), making risk free jumping much slower. Logistics can afford to be slow, and will want to be risk free, which would still be possible, whereas combat operations would require more careful planning, or else they run a big risk of losing ships on the way. I think it would at least make things interesting.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 04:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: darius mclever all or nothing. logistics would need to slow down aswell.
I was thinking this would apply to jump freighters too but I'm kind of 50/50 on that now the more I think about it.
Originally by: darius mclever but your slow down idea would just fail anyway. i am pretty sure that the result will be that the big alliances will have multiple alliance/corp cap fleets and they just pod express between the different cap fleets. iirc PL had like 3-4 dread fleets ready to go. i am sure the other big boys do aswell and if they dont have them already, they will once that proposal goes life. so in the end you punish the small guys who cant afford that.
Big alliances all ready replace the caps lost in fights anyways. So it is not like that would change anything. The idea is to get rid of the, "We will use 100% of our cap fleet and zip across the galaxy in whatever is going on." You would leave yourself wide open to being attacked on another front without the use of your capitals if your too far away with your entire capital fleet.
Remember, this applies to the player, not the ship. Granted if they have capitals all over EVE, yes, they could fly to them or pod express and use the jumps sparingly because they are nearby. Even that would be better than the current situation of, "Attack somewhere accross the galaxy for breakfast, hot drop way over here for lunch, and defend back home for dinner."
Also it would make blobs stay spread out more in order to control their territory better. Sure the idea needs tweaked and such which is why it put it here in this thread.
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NeoFusion
Caldari Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2010.03.17 13:06:00 -
[10]
I like the idea, capital proliferation is becoming something that's just getting a little too silly.
However, I wouldn't be happy with a 12 hour jump limit or using a skill to determine how many times you can jump.
Perhaps a fixed limit of something a bit more reasonable like 3 - 4 hours would still be enough to make distanced movements more staggered.
Would be good if it could be based on the ship-type as well, i.e. jump freighters get a bonus to the time to aid logistics, but dreads and titans require the longest time, much like moving heavy artillery would consume a lot of resources and time.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 14:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: NeoFusion I like the idea, capital proliferation is becoming something that's just getting a little too silly.
However, I wouldn't be happy with a 12 hour jump limit or using a skill to determine how many times you can jump.
Perhaps a fixed limit of something a bit more reasonable like 3 - 4 hours would still be enough to make distanced movements more staggered.
Would be good if it could be based on the ship-type as well, i.e. jump freighters get a bonus to the time to aid logistics, but dreads and titans require the longest time, much like moving heavy artillery would consume a lot of resources and time.
Adjusting jump range could also be looked into.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.17 14:29:00 -
[12]
the other problem could be alts moving the ships for you while you pod express/fly in a ceptor over to the new location.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 14:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: darius mclever the other problem could be alts moving the ships for you while you pod express/fly in a ceptor over to the new location.
If people want to have capital alts just to get around this would be a logistical nightmare and if they want to train/buy an alt for this so be it.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 16:14:00 -
[14]
This would also open the door for merc capital corps/alliances as they don't have to worry about defending a 'homefront' if they are hired to invade and vice versa.
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General Oniell
Caldari Debitum Naturae BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 18:27:00 -
[15]
No.
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.17 18:43:00 -
[16]
That is an interesting idea, and perhaps something like this could bring a more strategic edge to the game and limit the sort of gay piling on we see so much of these days.
But I don't understand why you want to associate some sort of jump limit with a player, after all players don't jump... ships do. Even though CCP has firmly set the trend of game mechanics that make zero sense whatsoever I wonder if something in particular turned you off from the more obvious and intuitive notion of a cool down period for the capital ship itself, such that in addition to the fuel and cap it uses the jump drive system has its own separate charge (of something) that recharges fully in about 24hrs and which enables it to make about 6 jumps when fully charged.
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Aera Aiana
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: General Oniell No.
Read the forum rules. Give a reason or don't post. Based on the usefulness of your reply you probably can't be bothered to locate the rules thread, so I'm being nice and help you to it:
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Thus a couple ground rules: 1) This is a breeding ground for ideas. If someone has an idea, listen to it. If you don't like it, think about why. Constructive feedback is good. Posting "That's an awful idea," is not constructive.
There you go.
Originally by: King Rothgar Interesting idea. What I see happening is the defender can field 100 capitals since they just happened to be 1 jump away, the attacker could only muster 3 capital alts because everyone else didn't feel like spending 2 days of real life time traveling to the target region. So yeah, opposed.
I'd kind of expect it to be the other way. You'd have a stronger reason to attack a less defended target. Isn't that possible?
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aera Aiana
Originally by: King Rothgar Interesting idea. What I see happening is the defender can field 100 capitals since they just happened to be 1 jump away, the attacker could only muster 3 capital alts because everyone else didn't feel like spending 2 days of real life time traveling to the target region. So yeah, opposed.
I'd kind of expect it to be the other way. You'd have a stronger reason to attack a less defended target. Isn't that possible?
Thats what I thought. If your territory gets too big then you will need to spread the capitals out a bit in order to maintain an even level of control, and thus get rid of the ultra blob capital strategy. Granted you still could choose to do that, but you leave defences weak in other parts of your territory.
Also, if your trying to invade to claim some space and less than half of your pilots don't want to come help take it over with capitals because they don't want to commit to it, well, then, "You didn't want that space anyways." will apply.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:15:00 -
[19]
Yes, it will introduce a strategic element to the game!
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Roonia
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:55:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Roonia on 17/03/2010 19:58:22 I agree with you. Same principle as clone jumping. That's why that was limited to 1 every 24 hours, for exactly the purpose of not letting players basically be everywhere at once....which is something capital fleets are doing right now.
Capital fleets are becoming the order of the day everywhere. Its like rabbits in Australia. Everyone can move any number of capitals everywhere in a short time with they cyno restriction, which is worthless.
I give this thumbs up.
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Peter Powers
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.17 21:50:00 -
[21]
so i cant do 20 jumps back and forward to seed a market?
get lost.
EVEranking Lottery is back, new prizes available!! |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 21:51:00 -
[22]
Any input from the power blocks?
I actually expect zero support from them to be honest because this would open up the door for smaller entities to claim a piece of 0.0
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.17 21:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Marlona Sky Any input from the power blocks?
I actually expect zero support from them to be honest because this would open up the door for smaller entities to claim a piece of 0.0
i doubt that. you would just steam roll them in BS fleets. or just farm them with roaming gangs until they leave annoyed.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 22:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Peter Powers so i cant do 20 jumps back and forward to seed a market?
get lost.
Are you suggesting that jump freighters are to be an exception?
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Roonia
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Posted - 2010.03.18 07:08:00 -
[25]
I think yes, that cargo/logistical/industrial cap ships should be an exception. Because through that you are limiting the industrialist/miner's ability to cash in ore/move items/sell to very low m3 per day.
Limit all except Rorqual & JF.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.18 09:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Roonia I think yes, that cargo/logistical/industrial cap ships should be an exception. Because through that you are limiting the industrialist/miner's ability to cash in ore/move items/sell to very low m3 per day.
Limit all except Rorqual & JF.
I agree, I updated the OP to include that exception.
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Peter Powers
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.18 11:45:00 -
[27]
you are not making any sense,
you claim this is to limit larger alliances and support smaller ones, however you exclude jump freighters, which are mostly used by larger alliances, while limiting carriers, which are the poor mans transport.
again: get lost.
EVEranking Lottery is back, new prizes available!! |
Vincent Gaines
Infinite Improbability Inc
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Posted - 2010.03.18 11:57:00 -
[28]
This is a horrible idea.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.18 12:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Peter Powers you are not making any sense,
you claim this is to limit larger alliances and support smaller ones, however you exclude jump freighters, which are mostly used by larger alliances, while limiting carriers, which are the poor mans transport.
again: get lost.
Any more feedback from the power blocks?
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.18 14:10:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Peter Powers you are not making any sense,
you claim this is to limit larger alliances and support smaller ones, however you exclude jump freighters, which are mostly used by larger alliances, while limiting carriers, which are the poor mans transport.
again: get lost.
He didn't say it was to 'limit larger alliances' because that would be just undefined and meaningless, he said it was to encourage strategic deployment of forces and reduce cap ship blobs.
Carriers can't carry squat anymore and even medium sized corps use jump freighters. As far as I'm aware no one has yet been slaughtered by a Jump Freighter blob and Jump Freighters facilitate smaller entities operating at the fringes. Therefore it does not appear to be logical to suggest that this exception would undo the intent or negate the merit of the suggestion. |
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