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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:11:00 -
[31] - Quote
Messoroz wrote: Also, LOL at OP trying to justify RMT. An account is not a piece of software, get over it.
I'm not justifying anything, I read an article and wanted to know how this affects the rules of CCP. I'm in no way or form trying to sell any of my accounts. I love EvE, and my characters are mine until they are biomassed or CCP shuts down eve.
Bootleg Jack wrote: Well, go ahead and do it, after the ban, get a lawyer, test the precident and let us know how that works out for you.
Not trying to sell, Just want to know.
Asuri Kinnes wrote: Disagree all you want - you are wrong.
I'll take your word for it?
Thorn Galen wrote: @Op - You agreed to the EULA whether you want to rationalize it otherwise or not. You went "click" and that was your consent. Rant all you want, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
If you sign a paper that you agree to me killing you publicly, will my terms and agreements or the law of the country apply? (Hint: I think the law ) |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:12:00 -
[32] - Quote
Good post |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
775
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:If you sign a paper that you agree to me killing you publicly, will my terms and agreements or the law of the country apply? (Hint: I think the law )
Laughable.
Now you're equating real-life death with an online escapism MMO ? Way to go Mr. Intellect. My final post in this thread. I refuse to enter intellectual combat against a mentally incapacitated opponent.
The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tippia wrote:This is where the ruling steps in and says that you are allowed to resell that physical box you bought from the store and neither Atari nor CCP can come after you. If you try to sell the client download, they'll do nasty things to you because you'll have a very hard time proving that each download was a license you had bought and then resold.
No that was already established. This ruling (from an Oracle appeal) clarifies that it doesn't matter whether there was physical media or not, you have an absolute right to resell the software if you were granted a licence for an unlimited period.
Prior to the ruling you could only resell software which had physical install media. Now you can resell software which has no physical install media.
That's what this case was all about Tippia.
EA et al are in a world of trouble on this as online multiplayer games with no recurring fee most definitely ARE covered by the ruling. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:22:00 -
[35] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:If you sign a paper that you agree to me killing you publicly, will my terms and agreements or the law of the country apply? (Hint: I think the law ) Laughable. Now you're equating real-life death with an online escapism MMO ? Way to go Mr. Intellect. My final post in this thread. I refuse to enter intellectual combat against a mentally incapacitated opponent.
So this law is not in real life? Ok then. How am I equating anything? You say "You agreed to the EULA/TOS and thats it". Well, the law clearly overrules EULA/TOS, I just put it in a more serious setting. Why should the law > eula/tos matter in one situation and not another?
Personal shitflinging, nice. Best way to end a discussion professionally. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:24:00 -
[36] - Quote
Othran wrote: EA et al are in a world of trouble on this as online multiplayer games with no recurring fee most definitely ARE covered by the ruling.
Indeed. I can see why a recurring fee model might not apply, but anything else? I should be allowed to sell it to anyone. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8343
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:30:00 -
[37] - Quote
Othran wrote:No that was already established. This ruling (from an Oracle appeal) clarifies that it doesn't matter whether there was physical media or not, you have an absolute right to resell the software if you were granted a licence for an unlimited period. GǪbut that's just it: a license. The point I'm making is that if you try to create your own distribution of EVE, you're going to have a hard time proving that you have all the licenses you're trying to re-sell. You are free to Gǣre-sellGǥ the license you have to download and run the game, but you're only going to have one of those per account.
Sure, in the end, it won't matter GÇö CCP can't really lose money because without an account (which the new owner have to get anyway) the software is largely useless other than as a screen saver, and creating an account establishes a license anyway so there's no point and no need to transfer the license GÇö but it gives them (and retains, even with this ruling) an avenue to go after people who sell unlicensed copies, and who create service-rep headaches as irate customers contact CCP to complain about how the GÇ£totally trustworthyGÇ¥ retailer they bought the software from never mentioned that an account was needed as well. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Citsatllort
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:31:00 -
[38] - Quote
People sell their accounts all the time for real money. There is more than one site that's dedicated to the auction of game accounts. No one cares about the EULA. Unless CCP is going to start buying up all the accounts and then reversing charges on them people will continue to sell for real $$. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote: Indeed. I can see why a recurring fee model might not apply, but anything else? I should be allowed to sell it to anyone.
Eve has a recurring fee. That appears to exempt CCP from the ruling, although I haven't read all of it.
However Dust is a different matter as there is no recurring fee (there is a setup fee AIUI) and would be covered by the ruling. The account could be sold as the setup fee is for the software and account.
There's loads of weasel words to come on this I reckon.
The good news is that ******** game companies who've been lobbying to stop resale of single-player/standalone games have now been screwed by possibly the greediest IT company on the planet - Oracle What goes around etc :) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8343
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
Othran wrote:However Dust is a different matter as there is no recurring fee (there is a setup fee AIUI) and would be covered by the ruling. The account could be sold as the setup fee is for the software and account. Nah, Dust will fall into the same pattern as EVE: yes, you need a license to run the software, but you won't be able to actually play without a (non-transferable) service contract.
Here, the ruling rather means that, should you be able to extract the software from your PS3's hard drive, you can give it to someone else and they're allowed to run it (although I imagine that Sony will be slightly upset if you do for various other reasons). But here, too, it will be largely pointless to do such a transfer since anyone is free to download and use the software anyway. The kind of transfers the ruling allows is immensely more work than just creating a license of your own. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
210
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:48:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Othran wrote:However Dust is a different matter as there is no recurring fee (there is a setup fee AIUI) and would be covered by the ruling. The account could be sold as the setup fee is for the software and account. Nah, Dust will fall into the same pattern as EVE: yes, you need a license to run the software, but you won't be able to actually play without a (non-transferable) service contract. Here, the ruling rather means that, should you be able to extract the software from your PS3's hard drive, you can give it to someone else and they're allowed to run it (although I imagine that Sony will be slightly upset if you do for various other reasons). But here, too, it will be largely pointless to do such a transfer since anyone is free to download and use the software anyway. The kind of transfers the ruling allows is immensely more work than just creating a license of your own.
Nope, not unless the setup fee disappears and CCP can't afford that. If the setup fee has any relationship with the account then the account becomes part of the software licence. No recurring fee = no service contract in this instance.
You can already resell console games with physical media, this just means the "setup fee" will have to disappear for Dust.
Edit - and Sony will have to make "extracting the software" possible. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8343
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
Othran wrote:Nope, not unless the setup fee disappears and CCP can't afford that. If the setup fee has any relationship with the account then the account becomes part of the software licence. Will there be a setup fee? Will it be part of the license? What kind of relationship are envisioning?
Again, you're entirely free to download and run the software (and, with this ruling, resell those rights) GÇö the service contract is a separate entity from the (re)sale of the (free) downloaded software. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
32
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:53:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Thorn Galen wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:If you sign a paper that you agree to me killing you publicly, will my terms and agreements or the law of the country apply? (Hint: I think the law ) Laughable. Now you're equating real-life death with an online escapism MMO ? Way to go Mr. Intellect. My final post in this thread. I refuse to enter intellectual combat against a mentally incapacitated opponent. So this law is not in real life? Ok then. How am I equating anything? You say "You agreed to the EULA/TOS and thats it". Well, the law clearly overrules EULA/TOS, I just put it in a more serious setting. Why should the law > eula/tos matter in one situation and not another? Personal shitflinging, nice. Best way to end a discussion professionally.
Hi. Aweful spaceship pilot here. I do not care much about syrian troops torturing kids or raping and killing their mothers. I do care about what the OP here is asking, because that somewhat affects my life.
So in short, space ship pixels are more important than life and death, and sometimes it is more impotant than wife and kids.
So... Can I buy an account due to this new law?? |
Cebraio
Starfire Oasis
113
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:57:00 -
[44] - Quote
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
Hi. Aweful spaceship pilot here. I do not care much about syrian troops torturing kids or raping and killing their mothers. I do care about what the OP here is asking, because that somewhat affects my life.
So in short, space ship pixels are more important than life and death, and sometimes it is more impotant than wife and kids.
So... Can I buy an account due to this new law??
No
You are also wrong on the other parts. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
211
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Othran wrote:Nope, not unless the setup fee disappears and CCP can't afford that. If the setup fee has any relationship with the account then the account becomes part of the software licence. Will there be a setup fee? Will it be part of the license? What kind of relationship are envisioning? Again, you're entirely free to download and run the software (and, with this ruling, resell those rights) GÇö the service contract is a separate entity from the (re)sale of the (free) downloaded software.
If the software requires online authentication to run or to access all features and that authentication does not have a recurring fee then its covered.
I suggest you look at what Oracle was appealing. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8343
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Othran wrote:If the software requires online authentication to run or to access all features and that authentication does not have a recurring fee then its covered. And again, afaik, it doesn't. I know they tanked about it, but I'm not sure that it's been decided.
It requires a (free) software download that you are now free to transfer, and it requires a (free) service contract that is most likely going to be non-transferable (wellGǪ outside of how transferable PSN accounts are GÇö I'm not fully up to speed on Sony's contracts in that regard). Transferring the (free) license, while free, will be more trouble than just setting up a new license, since it's going to beGǪ wellGǪ free.
The software license that's touched by the ruling rather seems to be the transaction between you and the PSN Store GÇö you will now have the right to transfer that purchase to a different account, and while I'm sure this will create massive headaches for Sony, CCP's part should remain largely untouched. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
263
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:22:00 -
[47] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:So, as far as I can tell, CCP does not allow players to sell and share our accounts. How does that go with the ruling that allow Europeans to legally sell any computer program to another person? http://www.lo-ping.org/2012/07/03/eu-court-ruling-allows-for-re-sale-of-used-games-by-end-users-you/GÇ£an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his GÇÿusedGÇÖ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internetGÇ¥. "The exclusive right of distribution of a copy of a computer program covered by such a licence is exhausted on its first sale."
a gaming account is not a piece of software. CCP does allow you to create your own account and then buy a character on the character bazaar to transer to that account.. or transfer a character to that account from another of your own accounts. This should be enough to satisfy the needs most players. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
MinefieldS
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:So, as far as I can tell, CCP does not allow players to sell and share our accounts. How does that go with the ruling that allow Europeans to legally sell any computer program to another person? http://www.lo-ping.org/2012/07/03/eu-court-ruling-allows-for-re-sale-of-used-games-by-end-users-you/GÇ£an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his GÇÿusedGÇÖ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internetGÇ¥. "The exclusive right of distribution of a copy of a computer program covered by such a licence is exhausted on its first sale."
There is 1 simple workaround for that court decision for U.S. companies: IP ban all Europe and stop selling boxed copies to them until they repeal that decision. |
Orecia
Meritoc Industries Inc. SRS.
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 12:48:00 -
[49] - Quote
MinefieldS wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:So, as far as I can tell, CCP does not allow players to sell and share our accounts. How does that go with the ruling that allow Europeans to legally sell any computer program to another person? http://www.lo-ping.org/2012/07/03/eu-court-ruling-allows-for-re-sale-of-used-games-by-end-users-you/GÇ£an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his GÇÿusedGÇÖ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internetGÇ¥. "The exclusive right of distribution of a copy of a computer program covered by such a licence is exhausted on its first sale." There is 1 simple workaround for that court decision for U.S. companies: IP ban all Europe and stop selling boxed copies to them until they repeal that decision.
As if IP banning EU would stop me from playing. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1225
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 12:48:00 -
[50] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Not sure about stuff above but after few years of paying for this chars when im done with em this baby and other are going to e-bay.
not anymore ahahahahahaha a rogue goon |
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TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
126
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 13:05:00 -
[51] - Quote
Even though this ruling may not deal with this specific area, the ownership of "accounts" is a bit weird anyway when you think about it. You pay for the account, you are the "owner" of it... yet you are not allowed to sell or give it to someone else because the company says so (because they want that someone else to give THEM money not you)
doesnt feel right, does it |
Anna Djan
Banana Corp
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 13:38:00 -
[52] - Quote
You can not sell what you don't own.
You own a license to access the game, but you do not own the character, the ISK or anything else inside that game.
The only time this would change is if ISK was transferable to RL cash (an no, PLEXs do not count).
OP, before posting outrageous posts, try and understand licensing laws first :P
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Mallak Azaria
272
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 14:26:00 -
[53] - Quote
What a stupid law to make. South Korea has the right idea though, 5 years jail for anyone caught botting or engaging in RMT. |
Mark Androcius
93
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 14:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
I can make this really simple, you have to compare it to a house. European rules on buying and selling houses, states that you can only buy and then sell land/house every 5 years, without pating taxes ofter the profit. If however, you buy and sell houses for a living, you have to pay taxes over the profit you make.
CCP CAN NOT make selling accounts and items legal, as it CAN NOT strictly follow how much you sell for real life cash, meaning either you or CCP, will get a nice huge tax bill, stating whatever amount of euro's, the european gevernment "guesses" you have made on selling stuff and accounts.
Yeah i know, i sayd the same thing in another post too, but i'm just trying to remove the stupidity in as many people as possible. If a man speaks his mind in the forest and no woman hears him, is he still wrong? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4219
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 14:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
MinefieldS wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:So, as far as I can tell, CCP does not allow players to sell and share our accounts. How does that go with the ruling that allow Europeans to legally sell any computer program to another person? http://www.lo-ping.org/2012/07/03/eu-court-ruling-allows-for-re-sale-of-used-games-by-end-users-you/GÇ£an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his GÇÿusedGÇÖ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internetGÇ¥. "The exclusive right of distribution of a copy of a computer program covered by such a licence is exhausted on its first sale." There is 1 simple workaround for that court decision for U.S. companies: IP ban all Europe and stop selling boxed copies to them until they repeal that decision.
There is 1 simple workaround for that tactic by the EU: repeal all the copyrights held by those companies and download the software once.
Realistically though, let me tell you about a thing called "trade agreements" that make your proposed solution hilariously impractical. Oh and another thing called "competition". Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
LilRemmy
Synaptic Void THORN Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 15:12:00 -
[56] - Quote
Who cares if someone sells his account for real money?
Oh and in the EU we have something called consumer rights, I know that is a concept alien to most Americans. |
Adolfus Shakor
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 15:53:00 -
[57] - Quote
dexington wrote: You do not own your character, so you can not sell it.
You do not own your character, so you should not sell it.
Fixed it for you.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8360
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 15:57:00 -
[58] - Quote
Adolfus Shakor wrote:dexington wrote: You do not own your character, so you can not sell it. You do not own your character, so you should not sell it. Fixed it for you. Technically, you do not own your character, but you can still sell it in exchange for certain other things that you will not own either.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1536
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
I'll just drop this reminder in here.
A bunch of mouth breathing nerds posting on an internet spaceship forum are not making the rules. Their opinions and 'well reasoned arguments' count for exactly nothing.
That's a job for real lawyers that CCP is paying specifically to deal with this stuff. They'll figure it out. It's business as usual for them.
While I find this mildly interesting, it is not something I will argue about since unlike all you armchair lawyers, I readily admit that corporate law is way outside my area of expertise.
Mr Epeen There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Gabriel Z
Free Rein
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:02:00 -
[60] - Quote
EVE software is free. Good luck reselling it.
Accounts are not software.
It seems fairly obvious that the core issue here is that software companies are no longer sending out games printed on media that can be taken to a used disk shop and sold. It's all digital. They thought they had at last solved the resale issue. If anyone was gonna play their game, now and forever, they were going to have a buy a new copy. This ruling changes that. It says you own the digital copy, even though there is no media to pick up and sell at the used disk store. This ruling actually bodes very ill for movie companies if the core issue is applied elsewhere. |
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