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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.20 14:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 20/03/2010 14:32:54
We already have an Tyrannis insurance thread but other aspects of it are starting to pop all over, so to keep and the various discussions focused & organised and in CCP Hammer's words in livin' on a prayer
Quote: ... enterprising young hackers will be poring over ... raw game data in an attempt to theorycraft the latest scoop about Tyrannis
So to get things rolling ...
A few Dev Blog Hints
Quote: ... a suitable planet via a scanning interface then plunks down various things we have internally been calling PINs (planetary interaction node), links those PINs together and then configures routes for all of the stuff moving between the PINs. ... Planetary Command Center. The PCC is your base of operations for all of your infrastructure on a given planet.
Sounds a lot like Reaction POS to me. PCC=Control Tower, PIM=Starbase Modules. Further mentions of extractor and storage underline the similarity.
Quote: All kinds of process PINS for all kinds of processes which use all kinds of schematics (subject to change of course). You will be mixing and matching various resources and commodities based on those schematics to come up with intermediate commodities to eventually create final products. Some final products can be produced entirely on one planet but most will require transport to other planets to be produced.
schematics sound a lot like Reaction blueprints.
Expectations What PIMs would we expect to see on planets? I just going to brain dump a list.
- Housing (Cities, Towns, Villages, Colony outposts).
- Natural Resource Harvesters - Water, O2.
- Farms (Arable, Livestock) - Frozen Plant Seeds, Soil, Fertilizer, Wheat, Livestock
- Mines - Carbon, Silicon, Construction Blocks.
- Factories - Coolant, Electronic Parts, Mechanical Parts, Robotics.
- Defence -(High-Tech) Small Arms, Marines
- Launch Facility - Rocket Fuel.
Tyrannis speculation If CCP wish to replace NPC goods with player produced goods, then quite a lot of Consumer Products, Industrial Goods look like good candidates as base and intermediate. IMHO the most likely candidates for final products, are the NPC goods used in the construction and maintenance of Outposts and POS.
Observations on Singularity To follow.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.20 14:24:00 -
[2]
-- Reserved for future expansion --
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Rosenoern
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Posted - 2010.03.20 14:35:00 -
[3]
10,000,000 ISK says freedom fighters can only be used on planets using slaves in the workforce :)
my 2 cents
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seany1212
Stylo Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.20 14:35:00 -
[4]
Wrong. Check out singularity and the planetary interaction, PCC are modules that you cant even purchase yet on TQ and are nothing like control towers with the exception that all the other nodes are linked up to it and cant be put down without it.
You guys make squeeky noises when you pop, and that's enough motivation as far as I'm concerned. |
Bitty Bit
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Posted - 2010.03.20 14:42:00 -
[5]
how about reactors that change t1 salvage into t2 stuff? they said they wanted to fit that in somewhere a while ago, no?
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Rosenoern
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Posted - 2010.03.20 15:13:00 -
[6]
Alright. Since noone is gonna be posting i might as well get serious.
I think you're pretty much right Wyke.
They said that the different "districts" on a planet had to work together in order to work well. They also mentioned something about pollution at the convention.
I take it that for your planet to give out maximum profits you will need to work together with the other districts like this:
You own a factory district, but you can't produce as much as you want because a part of your district has to be given over to food-production. Now if you could make a deal with your neighbor about producing food for you, so you could concentrate your entire district on producing robotics, coal, w/e.
Now if your district pollutes too much it will "spill over" into the neighboring districts and could conceivably destroy their industry (depending on what it is).
Livestock has never been too fond of battery acid.
They could then be forced to "ally" with some of the other district holders to fight you, or bully you into get more environmentally friendly.
another 2 cents
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.03.20 18:38:00 -
[7]
Its too early to tell and ccp might change a lot of things before it comes out, but there's one thing you'll need for sure- ISK, a lot of it since there will be new isk sinks for skills, structure and god knows what else knowledge is power |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.03.20 18:42:00 -
[8]
It's also not something we really care for, because nothing is likely to INCREASE in price (at least not at the beginning), and there's no good, practical way to short stocks in EVE.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.03.20 19:08:00 -
[9]
My Tyrannis speculation about market implications is quite simple (if we speak about PI only):
there will be no serious or even noticeable implications on market.
Seriously, should we expect huge importance of wheat ? or quafe ?
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.20 19:56:00 -
[10]
I foresee this being like the Orca, everyone buys the BPO. If it is all stuff that is NPC, who will care.
Need to see the nuts and bolts before speculating too much
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.20 20:37:00 -
[11]
Some interesting comments, a few I want to come back on. I expect the planets environments to be quite viariable. A quick survey of Hek has revealed the following planet types: 2xdesert, a volcanic, 2x bluish probable water worlds, 3x probable gas giants and an Eden world. Producing food on a gas giant or desert world seems unlikely, but these could be rich sources for charging hydrogen batteries or producing Silicon. Eden worlds would be good at producing food, or perhaps being a holiday resort. Those Tourists must be going somewhere.
Originally by: Grozen Its too early to tell and ccp might change a lot of things before it comes out, but there's one thing you'll need for sure- ISK, a lot of it since there will be new isk sinks for skills, structure and god knows what else
Early, yes; too early, no. A lot will change, but theory crafting is half the fun, and as time progresses, and more detail emerges, plans can start to formulate. Those new skills will probably require pre-requisites that might be trained before hand, if we can work them out. Also accumulating
Originally by: Akita T It's also not something we really care for, because nothing is likely to INCREASE in price (at least not at the beginning), and there's no good, practical way to short stocks in EVE.
Is that the royal we? or are you being coy about what you've worked out ? I've spotted two small groups of items that are almost certain to rise, especially at the beginning before production ramps up.
Aside from planet interaction a new class of T3 hull seems more likely than not, with a corresponding increase in the demand for T3 supplies. I'm clearly not the only one to think that because that T3 supplies market has livened up considerably in the last couple of weeks.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.03.20 21:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Originally by: Akita T It's also not something we really care for, because nothing is likely to INCREASE in price (at least not at the beginning), and there's no good, practical way to short stocks in EVE.
Is that the royal we? or are you being coy about what you've worked out ? I've spotted two small groups of items that are almost certain to rise, especially at the beginning before production ramps up. No I'm not going to lay them out but I do expect others to work them out.
Nah, just the regular collective "we". I hope you're not assuming that NPC orders would get removed (as opposed to just having PI as an alternative supply method), because I find it very unlikely for that to happen at the very start. Later, when they see that production has ramped up sufficiently to undercut NPC orders, they may do that, eventually... but not from the get-go. So, no, I don't expect any items to go up in price after Tyrannis, quite the opposite. Unless you're talking industrials (mostly T2 versions) and freighters, but I seriously doubt a significant rise in price will occur in any of them... most likely just a blip lost in the regular randomness of price fluctuation, smaller than the one after Dominion.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.03.20 21:24:00 -
[13]
Actually i speculate freigthers to drop in price cuz nano parts are avaible for building on planets atm. Heres some : Item Produced (Materials needed) - Auxiliary building needed
Nanomechanical Parts (gold, carbon) - 2 Harvesters + Factory Nanoelectrical Parts (silver, carbon) - 2 Harvesters + Factory Nano Computer Core (Nano Electrical Parts, Silicon) - Harvester + Factory
Ionized Water (Water) - Water Processing Plant Aluminium Nitrade (Aluminium, Nitrogen) - Harvester + Vapour Collector + Chemical Plant Aluminium Nitrade Paste (Alum. Nitr., Ionized Water) - Chemical Plant
Nanites (Nano Mech Parts, Nano Elec Parts, Nano Comp Core) - Factory
Nanite Repair Paste (Nanites, Alum. Nitr. Paste) - Factory knowledge is power |
Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.03.21 00:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Grozen Edited by: Grozen on 20/03/2010 21:44:58 Edited by: Grozen on 20/03/2010 21:40:13 Actually i speculate freigthers to drop in price cuz nano parts are avaible for building on planets atm. Heres some : Item Produced (Materials needed) - Auxiliary building needed
Nanomechanical Parts (gold, carbon) - 2 Harvesters + Factory Nanoelectrical Parts (silver, carbon) - 2 Harvesters + Factory Nano Computer Core (Nano Electrical Parts, Silicon) - Harvester + Factory ...
Even if these materials will be actual ones to produce - what they have to do with demand for freighters ? Do they replace something that is now carried in freighters ?
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.03.21 00:46:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Di Mulle on 21/03/2010 00:52:05
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 20/03/2010 20:55:49
Originally by: Di Mulle My Tyrannis speculation about market implications is quite simple (if we speak about PI only): there will be no serious or even noticeable implications on market.
Seriously, should we expect huge importance of wheat ? or quafe ?
If those did become PC only sourced goods, they become as important as any mineral or moon goo or other traded goods. Though I don't see Amarrian Wheat or Quafe in that category.
Assuming there is a bottle neck and I was in the design teams shoes, I would make that bottleneck people.
No, these goods will remain unimportant. TL/DR version - because they are unimportant now.
Your idea about colonists sounds good and I think it is in plans - though later dev statement hints it is possible they will not make that in time Nevertheless, in a big picture colonists are rather unimportant as well. Here's why.
Game in EVE revolves around building ships and blowing them. So only things that are important are that needed for making/blowing ships. That includes various infrastructure, implants as well, ofc.
Granted, some people may fully wander into planets and care about quantity and quality of colonists, natural life and whatever. From outside point of view they will barely exist at all. It does not matter what processes will go inside planets for use inside planets - be it building of factories, pipes, museums, space elevators or brothels. Nano nitrades or other clever named stuff. The only thing what matters is what comes out as final product.
Now, if CCP will not make one thing I will talk later, any of possible final products will not - or at least should not make a big impact on economy. Let's review options.
It can be ISK. For example, you grow Wheat and sell for NPC orders. Done a bigger scale it would be stupid thing to do, and I doubt CCP aims for this.
Minerals? we have more than enough.
Moongoo ? apart some minor twitches to remove drastic bottlenecks there is no point to make them. T2 industry is well established, also, it is kind of one of corner stones for wars.
T3 ? it belongs to WH and sleepers. Also, T3 is yet in it's infancy. At least demand for T3 is not near to T1 and T2. T3 frigates will be rather small T3 industry expansion when implemented.
That leaves us with commodities under "industrial goods" category (let's notice that consumer goods are unimportant). There are 2 important enough groups. One is goods used in T2 production directly - like hydrogen batteries and such. However, their cost in final product is minuscule. So no big impact on economy there. Another is POS fuel. It is more noticeable, but again, they make only about 1/6 POS running costs. So, again, some impact, definitely not a big one.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.03.21 01:20:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Di Mulle on 21/03/2010 01:24:29 Another reason is that long standing policy of EVE is to not obsolete current inventory by introducing new generation. But already existing generations largely cover most areas already - so it is only niches what left. Or, as another possibility, T4 may be some very expensive stuff with very very diminishing return. Even then it is dangerous because of "power inflation". Enough people have enough ISK. Because of that, my assumption is that even in unlikely event if T4 would be released, its' share will be rather small.
Just another option would be making some big part of the game obsolete; say, relocating ice production to planets. Thus eliminating huge investments in ships, training time and game time spent. Or, making T1 obsolete... or something like that. Rather bold and goes against what EVE stood for do far.
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Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
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Posted - 2010.03.21 02:15:00 -
[17]
I was thinking that datacores may be something produced from PI (and the current system phased out very soon afterwards).
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Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.21 09:48:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Carniflex on 21/03/2010 09:52:57
Originally by: Mire Stoude I was thinking that datacores may be something produced from PI (and the current system phased out very soon afterwards).
While it is entirely possible that datacores might be produced also in planets (although it seems a bit unlikely to me) removal of passive R&D generation seems quite remote possibility. I do not see that happening until CCP removes T2 BPO's from the game, and while I would just love to see that it's also something I am not holding my breath over. Unlike T2 BPO's people had actually to work for those R&D agents not just be first one to arrive at server and win lottery by figuring out how the 'random' number generator works (as CCP 'random' number generator seems not to be too random). Or do moongoo exploit themselves to trillions of isk, buy pile of them and then ... khm ... 'scam' those out of the exploiting character with unnamed alts that do not get nailed when exploiting chars get banned. Or just get them spawned for them by their dev friends like T20.
They will propably evetually get rid of those BPO's as they have hinted on several occasions that this is possibility I do not think they will do that in immediate future. Until they do it is in their best interest to keep datacore prices as low as possible to keep the volume of 'can't compete with T2 BPO's' whines low.
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Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2010.03.21 10:26:00 -
[19]
Carnifex, could you please link where you found ccp hinting at removing t2 bpo's?
All mentionings by ccp I have seen on the subject are either weakly or even strongly opposing that removal.
Most recently by the recident economist on fanfest something in the line of: Why would we want to remove something people aquired in game spending billions to get a small advantage?
Closest is have seen ccp post anything on removing t2 bpo is an old post (2006 perhaps?) where they stated they might change them into (high run) bpc's but not before allowing research on bpc's including an option to add runs to them.
T2 bpo's are now unique and rare items, much like the pleasure yaught or the state issue raven. and will not be respawned if destroyed. So if you want them out, bid on the auctions to buy the ones availeble and trash them.
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clixoras
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Posted - 2010.03.21 10:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Di Mulle
As a consequence, PI will not be a major ISK or material sink so many speak about. There will be nothing to sink it for.
continued
well said. i totally agree with your points.
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Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.21 11:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Martosh Toma Carnifex, could you please link where you found ccp hinting at removing t2 bpo's?
Closest is have seen ccp post anything on removing t2 bpo is an old post (2006 perhaps?) where they stated they might change them into (high run) bpc's but not before allowing research on bpc's including an option to add runs to them.
Don't have links saved, but there have been few remarks in threads related to invention. Mostly when invention was still being implemented. The one you mention among them. Dunno if it was 2006 or 2007, somewhere around that time indeed. During the last year or so they have no longer posted things that would hint possibility of removing T2 BPO's. I have not lost hope entirely just yet tho.
And T2 BPO's are a bit different than State Raven or other unique ships. State Raven just sits there in someones hangar, while T2 BPO's gives owner some definite (but small) advantage. Things is Invention is not competing against T2 BPO's - Invention fulfills demand that T2 BPO's can't meet. That is different from competing, as when T2 BPO is able to meet the demand for the item then Invention of that item is pointless.
Anyway - this thread is not the right place to lament about T2 BPO's . Most points (including 'they are like state raven') have been debated over the years over and over again and the T2 BPO's 'issue' is not something that people can come to agreement in forums. Sometimes one just have to agree to disagree. At this point it is design decision only dev's can do. Until they do there will be threads where on one side people (like me) argue against them presenting same arguments over and over again and on other side people who support T2 BPO's (for example Venkul) present same arguments (and counterarguments) in support of those over and over again.
Main point of my post was that I find it unlikely that datacores would be produced in planetary interaction. I just got a bit carried away when answering and took a swing at T2 BPO's also.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.03.21 11:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mire Stoude I was thinking that datacores may be something produced from PI (and the current system phased out very soon afterwards).
Phasing out current system, thus destroying huge investments made by thousands of players (not even speaking about tons of pure research alts, who's accounts will go poof in a day) ? And what for ?
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Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
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Posted - 2010.03.21 22:35:00 -
[23]
Who keeps their datacore alt accounts active anyway? At least for more than a month or two a year. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.03.21 23:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Di Mulle
Phasing out current system, thus destroying huge investments made by thousands of players (not even speaking about tons of pure research alts, who's accounts will go poof in a day) ? And what for ?
You mean those accounts that are inactive ? Oh yeah that will be very big hit for numbers of ACTIVE subscribers.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.03.23 15:26:00 -
[25]
If PI also includes Meta item production as part of the parcel, then that might explain in part the T2 BPO sell/buy activity lately - I wonder. If that gets confirmed, then we see cheaper Meta 4 items > increased invention chances > cheaper invention costs > general drop in datacore pricing > cheaper T2 items.
Only thing that might not get too damaged are the T2 ship BPOs owners, afaik. CCP will either need to drastically alter the invention mechanics for this to happen or drop datacore prices to pennies (which may or may not be realistic). |
Celia Therone
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Posted - 2010.03.23 18:17:00 -
[26]
Skill training books is one possibility. Build schools and universities on your planets, supply them with research materials, set research priorities and receive (random?) skill training books on some schedule.
You'd have to assume an isk upkeep on the facilities (rent or purchase cost of research materials from npcs) to balance the current isk sink of skill books.
Note that I don't really think that this will happen. Planets clearly have a huge opportunity to go in an awesome civ/sim planet direction but it looks increasingly likely that instead it's going to be POSOP (POS on Planet) with some tweaks and a new ui.
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Rosenoern
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Posted - 2010.03.24 10:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Di Mulle My Tyrannis speculation about market implications is quite simple (if we speak about PI only):
there will be no serious or even noticeable implications on market.
Seriously, should we expect huge importance of wheat ? or quafe ?
So there is no chance that food will be necessary to keep a colony running?
There is no chance that Amarrian Wheat will be more effective than regular?
There is no chance that population happiness will play a factor in productivity?
There is no chance that Quafe will play a part in making your workers happier? (luxury goods)
Seriously dude You are dismissing Tyrannis' effect on the market before even considering the possibilities...
Now i agree that it might not change within the first 2 days of expansion but c'mon...
I bet they got something big in store for us... They aren't gonna open up planetary interaction with a slow fizzle
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Alice Celadon
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Posted - 2010.03.24 11:17:00 -
[28]
I'll bury my advice in this thread since no one will listen anyway. Buy up as much cheap tech three salvage as you can now.
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Iosue
Gangrel Mining and Security High Treason Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.24 15:17:00 -
[29]
i wonder if minerals might be used in PI production to offset the recent oversupply currently flooding the market?
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.03.24 15:18:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Di Mulle on 24/03/2010 15:23:38 Edited by: Di Mulle on 24/03/2010 15:18:20
Originally by: Rosenoern
So there is no chance that food will be necessary to keep a colony running?
There is no chance that Amarrian Wheat will be more effective than regular?
There is no chance that population happiness will play a factor in productivity?
There is no chance that Quafe will play a part in making your workers happier? (luxury goods)
Seriously dude
Seriously dude, start thinking or at least read my other post All your wheats and condoms indeed MAY be important for your population and what not. I hope they will actually. But, unless you are going to play a game barely linked with the rest of EVE, your population itself is not important. Only important thing what this population and the rest of planetary stuff will produce for use outside of planets.
(And I have serious doubts all this population thing will be even implemented in first release.)
Originally by: Rosenoern You are dismissing Tyrannis' effect on the market before even considering the possibilities...
Actually, that is what you do Praising Tyrannis market before even considering the possibilities.
Originally by: Rosenoern I bet they got something big in store for us... They aren't gonna open up planetary interaction with a slow fizzle
I bet they got something small in store for us. And I am afraid they will get us something big later, in a knee-jerk reaction, thus hurting some parts of EVE.
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