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Darthewok
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.03.24 07:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Darthewok on 24/03/2010 07:34:57 Common scenario: Gang A goes looking for a fight. Gang B sees the number and types of ships of gang A on scan or in local.
Response 1: Gang B doesn't fight if outnumbered because it fears to damage its corp/alliance efficiency record. OUTCOME: NO FIGHT
Response 2: Gang B gets reinforcements and/or reships to more powerful ships than gang A. Gang A realises it is outnumbered and doesn't fight because it fears to damage its corp/alliance efficiency record. OUTCOME: NO FIGHT
Main problem with pvp in eve: a) no reason for people to engage at even odds. every incentive to bring more ships or buddies at favorable odds. this sounds good for the outnumberer until you remember that the other side isn't dumb and simply won't engage if outnumbered OUTCOME: NO FIGHT b) no reason for people to engage at unfavorable odds. if odds are unfavorable don't fight or bring more ships or buddies. in which case odds are even and see a) OUTCOME: NO FIGHT
give a reason for people to engage at even or unfavorable odds. otherwise, gangs are always looking to engage at favorable odds and never at unfavorable odds and this ends up as OUTCOME: NO FIGHT much of the time. how boring. anyone who has PVPed at all will have experienced this annoying problem. it is THE main problem in PVP so please fix it somehow.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.03.24 07:47:00 -
[2]
Or remove the tool that gives you free and instant intelligence with no effort. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.24 07:48:00 -
[3]
It's not an "EvE problem".
The Blob > smaller blob happens in most PvP games and also in RL. In RL the factor can be offset by using vastly superior technology (ie USA vs middle East countries) or with guerrilla tactics. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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foksieloy
Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.24 07:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Darthewok give a reason for people to engage at even or unfavorable odds.
Fun. /thread _______________________ We come for our people! |
Darthewok
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.03.24 07:52:00 -
[5]
yeah i know its a natural problem. just saying for fun's sake (because EVE is a game and therefore fun is a driving factor?) i hope CCP puts some thought into how to creatively solve this problem. sure reducing intel is one way. whatever works in reducing how ridiculously hard it is to get a fight near even odds in EVE.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.24 08:21:00 -
[6]
Quote:
want explosive growth in EVE? solve this problem.
You talk like this is a good thing.
There's a little problem with this, the mothers of the good players are not constantly pregnant, quite the opposite.
In the whole western world there seems to exist a pool of about half a 200k good players, thinly spread across the games. The remaining millions of players are filler and exist only to pad the MMO makers wallets.
To see how many "active" vs "passive and obnoxious" players exist in EvE (a game where you'd expect to have a good : bad player ratio higher than the norm) just look at the mineral prices crysis.
30k original players would generate "stuff" to keep them going.
Now there are 300k players, but 270k of them are not "existing", they are just grinding and creating stuff and crashing prices, it's still 30k who are active and basically keep the game activities going.
An "explosive growth" in EvE will add 10k new good players and 100k "dailies farmers". It'll only bring money in CCP's wallets, not promote PVP. Actually the dailies farmers are absolutely scared to even think to risk 1 ISK being blown up.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Darthewok
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.03.24 08:25:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Darthewok on 24/03/2010 08:26:36 interesting points.
hows about LP-like points for PVP kills you can redeem at special stores.. less than mining or missioning but still something i suppose to get more people PVPing.
divided among winning gang according to their contribution to fight.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.24 08:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 24/03/2010 08:30:36 interesting points.
hows about LP-like PVP reward points for PVP kills you can redeem at special stores.. less than mining or missioning but still something i suppose to get more people PVPing.
divided among winning gang according to their contribution to fight. so it pays to have less people in your gang so each player gets more of these PVP reward points.
a) reason to pvp, b) reason not to pvp with a huge blob as you get less PVP reward points per player.
They tried it in other games. All it caused was for enemy sides to talk into farming each other in turns and reap the benefits. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Vincent Death
Hyasyoda External Security Trade and Development
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Posted - 2010.03.24 08:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Darthewok interesting points.
hows about LP-like points for PVP kills you can redeem at special stores.. less than mining or missioning but still something i suppose to get more people PVPing.
You already get LP for kills in FW, it's just that it rarely ever works and I THINK you have to get the killing blow to be awarded them.
Recruiting
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Amarr Supremacist
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Posted - 2010.03.24 08:35:00 -
[10]
Posting in a thread where Darthewok proves he's incompetent and wants to make EVE into WoW with instanced PvP and Honour grinds.
It's fine as it is, don't give CCP any ideas just because you're clueless.
- Intigo
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Darthewok
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.03.24 08:43:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Darthewok on 24/03/2010 08:45:23 0/10 troll
EDIT: BTW HOW DO YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABT WOW LOL
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Darthewok give a reason via game mechanics for people to engage at even or unfavorable odds.
That's the problem with FW, other that some PVE spots there isn't any reason to fight other than wanting to fight. You can't really change that with FW. In "normal" low sec, would there be a corp/alliance living there, disrupting their area of operations will probably cause them to react, same thing in 0.0.
Besides, all is fair in EVE so if you know the hostiles will try to match your numbers... bring smaller numbers but heavily tanked and bring reinforcements from 1-2 jumps away as stuff is about to happen. Unless they have good scouts or sad spies they can't know your numbers and thus can't counter them.
Or you could use strategy to devide up that blob a bit, PVP is more than hitting approach or orbit and counting on EHP/DPS.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
eliminator2
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:12:00 -
[13]
my corp engage at eve numbers/outnumbered :D -----------------------------------------------
I met Eliminator1..... I chewed it up, and spat it out. Now, he is my minion.
I kill miners and mission runners people say, I call them target pra |
64ND4LF
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:16:00 -
[14]
WTB War-dec
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Athena Silk
FW Inc Don't Panic.
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Darthewok give a reason for people to engage at even or unfavorable odds.
Fun. /thread
This. Some of the best fights I've had are when we jumped into a fight, out numbered and out shipped, and came out on top.
If you're in a corp/alliance that is too concerned with stats and KB efficiency at the cost of fun and good fights, then try a different corp. There are plenty of corps out there that are in PvP for the fun and "gf".
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Darthewok
...
Get out of FW? Quite truthfully, you pick the place with one of the worst cases of "omg, lets blob 3:1 or gtfo" mentality and then extrapolate that the rest of EVE is like that.
There's nothing to really fight for in FW (except NPC sites, but your assets in space are not on the line; and profiting from any loot is a unrealistic expectation in FW) except the lolz. There's no reason to go out and fight despite being outnumbered; most of you don't even live in low-sec so that you need to fight to stop someone denying you your space.
Furthermore, you get a good number of people who are very reluctant to put their (PVP) ships in a situation where they might die, resulting in them favouring not fighting over fighting with the possibility of losing. CCP can't fix that bit, whatever they do. You get people avoiding the practically riskless/free PVP in WOW just because they hate losing.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:35:00 -
[17]
reinstall a flat fee for war dec per alliance of 50m ( or 100m) and 5m per corp and allow ulimited war decs Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2010.03.24 10:49:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Seishi Maru on 24/03/2010 10:56:29 Edited by: Seishi Maru on 24/03/2010 10:50:44
Originally by: Jin Nib Or remove the tool that gives you free and instant intelligence with no effort.
That is ONE of the main issues.
The following text is based on behavior of the average human, I know there are exceptions!
With perfect intelligence people will NOT engage on situations where they are at disadvantage, because they KNOW they are at disadvantage.
That is main reason why most of combat happens with BAIT tactics at gates, because its only way to hide SOMETHING. And there raises the second problem. You will not engage any small group without a large advantage, because its very very very likely that they have another 10 ships nearby. And they do that because the local systems demands them to do that to have success.
Its both too easy to get perfect intel and too easy to get a massive reinforcement in 10 seconds. Both issues that make people only engage when they have a vast advantage (making the other side not want to engage).
All the best fighting on small scale in eve is happening at wormholes. For a simple reason. No local.
All humans are naturally avoidant of a high chance of defeat. THat is why we see so much stattion huggers. Simply because its the only way they find they can fight without a blob. There are other very niche specific ways of doign the same. All the known burn eden tactics are examples of trying to minimize the risk of engaging while outnumbered, preventing the battle from being forfeited by a sure rush of reinforcements 10 seconds after it starts.
A third problem. Numbers matter TOO much in eve. CCP wanted to make a game where having the better ships and better skills mattered only a little bit. But they went TOO far. The way to defeat larger numbers is to have better equipment. But CCP really seems adverse of the concept of a smaller group defeating a larger one. Simple example was the massively nerfed state of T2 battleships PVP wise.
A well equiped fleet of 3 Navy battleships have LOW chances against 4 T1 normal battleships and very very low chances against 5. If high end equipment and skills can only compensate for somethign like 30% fleet size and enemy fleet may very well change in size by 60% in 10 secodns. THen people will not trust on using higher end equipment to engage larger numbers.
Eve NEEDS an overhaul on intel system, needs less hatred of CCP towards the SOLOPOWN and elitism, and I think it also need a slight reduction on mobility (warp, jumping etc...).
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Amanda Eidolo
Core Industrialist Resurrected G String University
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Posted - 2010.03.24 11:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Posting in a thread where Darthewok proves he's incompetent and wants to make EVE into WoW with instanced PvP and Honour grinds.
It's fine as it is, don't give CCP any ideas just because you're clueless.
- Intigo
(Cont'd) |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.24 11:24:00 -
[20]
Intel is a tricky one.
Sure, availability of intel might make the more risk averse people run/hide if they don't have the upper hand, but on the other hand lack of intel might make them not want to engage in the first place.
Restrictions on mobility would probably serve as somewhat of a detterent to bait/blob tactics and we could discuss the merit of that, but you will always have people who're afraid to engage unless they're 100% sure they can win. If you remove the ability to gather intel and they get surpise ****d too many times, they'll either move on to even ***gotier tactics with less risk or hug docking range even more.
Getting people to fight involves using your head and making them think you're the target while they are, really. This sadly works against the obviously awesome ships (unless for bait).
Sometimes fighting outnumbered works, anyway, depends on ships, relative pilot skills, how the fight starts and so on. You end up being surprised what can be done when you risk it and try. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.24 12:36:00 -
[21]
Quote:
If high end equipment and skills can only compensate for somethign like 30% fleet size and enemy fleet may very well change in size by 60% in 10 secodns. THen people will not trust on using higher end equipment to engage larger numbers.
The best PvP games put outcome in the hands of players skills, not gear.
It's not a random chance that in WoW gear is everything, while in EvE it's just a neat addition. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Darthewok
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.03.24 13:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Amanda Eidolo
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Posting in a thread where Darthewok proves he's incompetent and wants to make EVE into WoW with instanced PvP and Honour grinds.
It's fine as it is, don't give CCP any ideas just because you're clueless.
- Intigo
even worse than a 0/10 troll is a parrot of a 0/10 troll
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Amarr Supremacist
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Posted - 2010.03.24 13:46:00 -
[23]
Solution: Stop trying to fix EVE when you have no clue.
- Intigo
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Darthewok
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.03.24 13:51:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Darthewok on 24/03/2010 13:54:25 0/10 useful content in post
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Herman Witzig
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Posted - 2010.03.24 14:09:00 -
[25]
Greetings
One possible solution to large fleet operations is a penalty to the number of ships in fleet. At the moment you have a Leadership skill which increases the amount of ships a player can command in squads/wings etc. and skills which increase certain factors of those ships in fleet. Once a fleet/squad/wing commander is over his command rating, (the number of ships he can command) either all ships in fleet or the remaining ships get for example; a speed, an agility or a warp speed reduction or a reduction in weapon efficiency. Investment in skills would allow fleet commanders command bigger fleets and be more efficient. So the limiting factor would be the skill level of players.
Just a thought!
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2010.03.24 14:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
If high end equipment and skills can only compensate for somethign like 30% fleet size and enemy fleet may very well change in size by 60% in 10 secodns. THen people will not trust on using higher end equipment to engage larger numbers.
The best PvP games put outcome in the hands of players skills, not gear.
It's not a random chance that in WoW gear is everything, while in EvE it's just a neat addition.
that is a fantasy.. eve is not about skilsl. There is very little skills needed in combat whencompared to any game REALLY heavy on player skills.
Most of the skils are on fitting and selectign targets.
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2010.03.24 14:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 24/03/2010 08:18:39 Good luck finding people or corps who engage at even odds in EVE just for fun.
There are plenty of us, you're not looking hard enough -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2010.03.24 15:13:00 -
[28]
Originally by: adriaans
Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 24/03/2010 08:18:39 Good luck finding people or corps who engage at even odds in EVE just for fun.
There are plenty of us, you're not looking hard enough
problem is.. that is so rare. That when we find it we think " must be bait". And avoid engaging because we are sure there must be at least 4 times those numbers hidden nearby.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.03.24 15:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Darthewok give a reason via game mechanics for people to engage at even or unfavorable odds.
Some people just don't like to lose, and will go to every extreme possible to make sure they won't lose.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.24 17:25:00 -
[30]
Harder to get intel on enemy gang might result in more 'fights', but it will result in less ~good fights~. It only encourages blobbing.
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