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masternerdguy
Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.03.24 19:42:00 -
[1]
The dramiel and worm are the two most broken things in eve. The dramiel is the frig to end all frigs, sporting enough speed and dps to take down a battlecruiser. On the other hand, the worm is the frig that all frigs dont want to be, sporting less dps than an iskur which does the same job for less.
So, I propose the following:
Dramiel
1. Nerf velocity 15% 2. Change PG so it cant duel-prop 3. Get rid of its drone bay.
It can keep its unique small autocannon range and all that good stuff.
Worm Able to store 5 light drones right off the bat.
It needs a 10% bonus to drone dmg per level of caldari frig It also needs a 5% bonus to shield resistance and shield capacity per caldari frig.
TY
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Kuar Z'thain
Fraser's Finest
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Posted - 2010.03.24 19:56:00 -
[2]
tl;dr:
Dear CCP,
Please nerf those silly ships I don't fly and boost the ones I do.
Thank You.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:00:00 -
[3]
tl;dr
Dear CCP
I don't know how to fit the following on my ships.
Web Neut webber drones neut drones smart bombs.
Please nerf the faction frigates so I dont have to think when i fit my ships.
ty
masternerdguy
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:18:00 -
[4]
TL,DR: people are idiots.
The Dramiel is not broken because it is impossible to kill, it is broken because it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel. Pre-Dramiel-boost, there was tons of diversity in the frigate class and many good choices. Post-boost, there is one clear winner and no diversity.
It should be obvious why this is a bad thing. -----------
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:19:00 -
[5]
tl;dr
Bawwww
TY. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:34:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
The Dramiel is not broken because it is impossible to kill, it is broken because it reduces the entire frigate class to two categories: Dramiels, and those lesser ships that you only fly when you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a Dramiel. Pre-Dramiel-boost, there was tons of diversity in the frigate class and many good choices. Post-boost, there is one clear winner and no diversity.
In the battleship class, the Apoc, Armageddon and Abaddon reduce the entire battleship class to two categories: Amarr battleships and those lesser battleships that you only fly when you don't have the skills to fly Amarr BS. There would be tons of diversity if Amarr lasers were nerfed.
If you want to change something, do it consequently. Every race has their ships and fields where they excel. Amarr has the best battleships, Caldari the best Ewar and probably best PvE runners, Gallente the best point-blank damage and some unique drone capabilities. Minmatar has the best small ships (I count Dramiel as Minmatar ship) because speed and versatility pay of the better, the smaller the ship class is. So the Dramiel is the best frig as it should be, given Minmatar strengths.
If you want to nerf the Dramiel, consider nerfing/changing everything mentioned above. This is what is unique about Eve, ships are not necessarily balanced by stats but also by price and demand and by racial strenghts and flavour.
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Rocktown
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:36:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Rocktown on 24/03/2010 20:36:36 with a dramiel you get what you pay for everything is fine.
-edit-\/
if you are losing your battlecruisers to a dramiel....... you are really really really doing it wrong
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Tob'ias Sjodin
Organized Crime Black Hand.
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:38:00 -
[8]
Easy solution: Get off your lazy butt and make some ISK and buy a Dramiel,
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masternerdguy
Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rocktown Edited by: Rocktown on 24/03/2010 20:36:36 with a dramiel you get what you pay for everything is fine.
-edit-\/
if you are losing your battlecruisers to a dramiel....... you are really really really doing it wrong
i lost my hurricane cuz he was out of web, neut, and scram range and didnt track him and he poped my drones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0 << dramiel pilots who are scared about losing their Battlecruiser with a frig hull
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Shadowy Assistant
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: masternerdguy i lost my hurricane cuz he was out of web, neut, and scram range and didnt track him and he poped my drones
You would have lost your cane to any LR frigate in that case, not just the Dramiel.
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masternerdguy
Gallente Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Shadowy Assistant
Originally by: masternerdguy i lost my hurricane cuz he was out of web, neut, and scram range and didnt track him and he poped my drones
You would have lost your cane to any LR frigate in that case, not just the Dramiel.
your dumb.... he burned out at like 6km/s (he warped to me at 0) and i couldnt lock him down like I could with any other frig.
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Grunanca
Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.03.24 21:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: masternerdguy
Originally by: Shadowy Assistant
Originally by: masternerdguy i lost my hurricane cuz he was out of web, neut, and scram range and didnt track him and he poped my drones
You would have lost your cane to any LR frigate in that case, not just the Dramiel.
your dumb.... he burned out at like 6km/s (he warped to me at 0) and i couldnt lock him down like I could with any other frig.
Your dumb what? You need to put in another word to actually make a sentence out of it...
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Baillif
Red Mist Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.24 21:14:00 -
[13]
Boost rockets so that the Dramiel is even more fun
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Toramt
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Posted - 2010.03.24 21:15:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk webber drones
My understanding is that SW drones aren't fast enough to web anything worthwhile.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.24 21:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: McRoll In the battleship class, the Apoc, Armageddon and Abaddon reduce the entire battleship class to two categories: Amarr battleships and those lesser battleships that you only fly when you don't have the skills to fly Amarr BS. There would be tons of diversity if Amarr lasers were nerfed.
This is just stupid for two reasons:
1) Amarr battleships are not the only battleships worth flying. Ever hear of the Raven, Scorpion, Dominix, Tempest, Typhoon or Maelstrom? All of them are good ships and out-perform the Amarr battleships in the appropriate role.
2) Even if you assume that Amarr ships are the best, the difference in performance between Amarr battleships and other battleships is nowhere near as much as the difference in performance between the Dramiel and all of the other frigates.
Quote: Caldari the best Ewar and probably best PvE runners,
Rapier and Curse, ever hear of them?
Quote: Minmatar has the best small ships (I count Dramiel as Minmatar ship) because speed and versatility pay of the better, the smaller the ship class is. So the Dramiel is the best frig as it should be, given Minmatar strengths.
Minmatar do not have the best small ships. Good ones, yes, but not the only ones that are worth flying.
Quote: If you want to nerf the Dramiel, consider nerfing/changing everything mentioned above. This is what is unique about Eve, ships are not necessarily balanced by stats but also by price and demand and by racial strenghts and flavour.
Congratulations on missing the point. The problem is not that the Dramiel does something better than another ship, it's that the Dramiel does everything better than every other frigate. There's literally no reason to fly another frigate if you can fly a Dramiel. -----------
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.24 21:36:00 -
[16]
Edited by: baltec1 on 24/03/2010 21:36:38
Originally by: Baillif Boost rockets so that the Dramiel is even more fun
Boost rockets so its worthwhile putting them on my vengence
Also Iteron V ==> Dramiel.
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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.24 22:22:00 -
[17]
Hi. I have invested millions into selling Dramiels.
Please boost them so my stock is even more valuable. Thanks.
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2010.03.24 22:23:00 -
[18]
@ Ryskin
I wont bother quoting every sentence. I just wanna tell you that my opinion is based on overall performance of the ships. Amarr BS is considered overall "the best" because their battleships excel in 2 primary roles for battleships which is dealing and taking damage. They also have a ship for every situation, Geddon for RR, Apoc for sniping and Baddon for soaking up huge amounts of damage and dealing the same. Sure, there are other ships that might be better for some particular situations but overall Amarr BS are the best. Look at the dominant ships in fleet battles and the increased numbers of people training Amarr. No point discussing this further.
And no, the Dramiel isn't better in everything than other frigates. It has neither the best damage output nor the best tank, nor the most drones. What it does have is versatility and combination of dual propulsion with tank (med shield extender). So you can say that it's overall the best frigate but it doesnt excel in a particular field. Just like Amarr in their BS class, but in other way.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.24 22:26:00 -
[19]
Dramiel is definitely very powerful for a frigate. But instead of nerfing its stats.. why not simply increase the cost?
Double the cost of building Dramiels. If you make it just like the other faction frigs - what's the point of having it in the first place? EVE needs variety.
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Steve Celeste
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ephemeron Dramiel is definitely very powerful for a frigate. But instead of nerfing its stats.. why not simply increase the cost?
Double the cost of building Dramiels.
O **** man brilliant!
That will make it..... ONE MILLION isk more expensive.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: McRoll Sure, there are other ships that might be better for some particular situations but overall Amarr BS are the best. Look at the dominant ships in fleet battles and the increased numbers of people training Amarr. No point discussing this further.
And again, you miss the point.
Amarr battleships are good, and there is a strong argument for picking them if you are limited to one race of battleships.
Amarr battleships are NOT the undisputed kings of the battleship class, especially after the recent AC boost. There are strong arguments for multiple battleships being the "best", depending on the PvP situation. For example, I could argue that the tremendous versatility of the Dominix makes it a better choice, as it is excellent in RR BS gangs, solo/small-gang PvP, and even carebearing.
Any advantage Amarr battleships have is MUCH smaller than the advantage the Dramiel has over other frigates. And THIS is the problem, it's not that the Dramiel is considered the "best" by a lot of people, it's that it's the undisputed best by such a huge margin that there is no reason to ever fly another ship.
In fact, the Dramiel is even worse, since it is a single ship. This isn't even Minmatar frigates being the best in the frigate class, the other Minmatar frigates are just as worthless as the Raptor post Dramiel boost. More so, in fact, since they don't even have the excuse of using different skills and weapons to possibly give them a tiny role in the post-Dramiel world. If you can fly a Minmatar frigate, you can fly a Dramiel instead, and the Dramiel will always be the correct choice.
Quote: And no, the Dramiel isn't better in everything than other frigates. It has neither the best damage output nor the best tank, nor the most drones. What it does have is versatility and combination of dual propulsion with tank (med shield extender). So you can say that it's overall the best frigate but it doesnt excel in a particular field. Just like Amarr in their BS class, but in other way.
Stop looking at single attributes. The value of a ship depends on how well it performs in a specified role, not a single attribute in isolation. When we look at the ships as a whole, we find that the Dramiel has:
* The buffer tank of an AF.
* More speed than interceptors.
* More speed than many non-interceptor MWD frigates even when it only uses its AB.
* The dps of an AF.
* A drone bay larger than all but the Worm and Ishkur.
* A 4th mid for dualprop fits.
It's the combination of all these things that makes the Dramiel broken, no other frigate hull even comes close to that list. The end result is that if you look at every role that frigates fill (solo PvP, gang tackling, etc), the Dramiel is the obvious best ship for all of them. -----------
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:06:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Ephemeron Dramiel is definitely very powerful for a frigate. But instead of nerfing its stats.. why not simply increase the cost?
Double the cost of building Dramiels.
O **** man brilliant!
That will make it..... ONE MILLION isk more expensive.
For the less gifted amongst us, I want to clarify - double the current Jita contract price by inserting additional build requirements of appropriate value, also by Jita market standards. Such as - extra 70 mil in rare components.
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Kimura Masahiko
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:15:00 -
[23]
Stop trying to get things nerfed down to the lowest common denominator.
Why not ask for the weaker faction ships to get another look at. I would say the first step to doing this is bump their speeds up; the Cruor and the Worm should be doing speeds similar to their racial interceptors, 3.6 ish unfitted I guess. Thats not enough to fix the problem of course but until they are significantly faster than assault frigates they will be completely useless. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator |
King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:44:00 -
[24]
If the dramiel is fine, then can we please boost the slicer to do 9km/s. I mean, the dramiel would still be better in terms of tank, dps and versatility thanks to more mids + drones. I think that's fair.
Obviously I'm being sarcastic here, the dramiel needs a good nerf. I don't have a problem with it being the fastest frigate hull, the problem is the level of superiority. It should be slightly better, not border line invincible. It should not be so good that it coasts right by a neuting myrmidon with a scrambler and dual webs without a care in the world.
I use that example as I dropped a myrmidon in front of one last night, had him locked before he was in scramble range and he went right by me, nearly ship bumping. Such a move would spell near instant death for any other frigate hull. That dramiel just laughed it off and proceeded to tackle my myrmidon briefly before being forced to retreat by the heavily bonused warriors. I can't think of any other frigate hull, t1 or t2 that wouldn't have died horribly in that situation.
My proposal is the dramiel gets a 15% speed reduction and loses a bunch of powergrid. It can be the fastest ship in game, but only marginally so. It shouldn't be 1km/s+ faster than the next fastest ship. It also needs to be brought inline with the other nano'd frigates in terms of tank. Once again, it's pirate faction so it can be a little better but the difference should not be what it is.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: King Rothgar Waah I didn't get an easy kill because some guy flew better than me, please change his play style so I can get more free kills.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Ephemeron Dramiel is definitely very powerful for a frigate. But instead of nerfing its stats.. why not simply increase the cost?
Double the cost of building Dramiels.
O **** man brilliant!
That will make it..... ONE MILLION isk more expensive.
For the less gifted amongst us, I want to clarify - double the current Jita contract price by inserting additional build requirements of appropriate value, also by Jita market standards. Such as - extra 70 mil in rare components.
won't work - this is not a sellers' market - putting the gist back into logistics |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.25 00:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider won't work - this is not a sellers' market
Actually I am targeting the buyer, not seller. The seller usually obtains BPC, either from mission runners or NPC farmers, then builds the ship and sells it for whatever profit margin he wants.
CCP can easily add 70 mil worth of additional components as requirements for building the ship. Seller would have no choice but to add that 70 mil to the price.
Less people will buy it, but the ship will still pwn. Eventually, all PvP ships die, and this loss would hurt more, justifying the extra power.
The simple fact of the matter is that flying Dramiel is fun. FUN As much as we care for game balance, we should never forget that the ultimate purpose of this game is to entertain. And balance can be achieved in many different ways, there is never just 1 solution. But there are boring solutions. The Great Nano Nerf is primary example of that - EVE PvP became less fun, but more balanced.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.03.25 00:07:00 -
[28]
Making a specific ship cost more to "balance it" will never happen. They may adjust the entire ship class, but never a specific one. Stop asking for it.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.25 00:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Artemis Rose Making a specific ship cost more to "balance it" will never happen. They may adjust the entire ship class, but never a specific one. Stop asking for it.
this statement is as pointless as my reply
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z0de
The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2010.03.25 00:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin * The buffer tank of an AF.
* More speed than interceptors.
* More speed than many non-interceptor MWD frigates even when it only uses its AB.
* The dps of an AF.
* A drone bay larger than all but the Worm and Ishkur.
* A 4th mid for dualprop fits.
It's the combination of all these things that makes the Dramiel broken, no other frigate hull even comes close to that list. The end result is that if you look at every role that frigates fill (solo PvP, gang tackling, etc), the Dramiel is the obvious best ship for all of them.
Says it all.
Ship cost is a result of the ship being good not the other way round. á á
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