Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Vultirnus
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
|
Posted - 2010.03.24 20:33:00 -
[1]
I am new to EVE in general and especially new to PvP. As I begin to break into this role I have started playing with the legendary EFT a lot and am wondering what the pro's think about damage output ratings. I am personally under the impression that a DPS is of more importance than volley damage. You are going to have shots that miss and/or aren't true (partial damage) during a fight. A higher DPS would better compensate for this inevitability.
Am I thinking about this correctly?
|
Redshirt I
|
Posted - 2010.03.24 20:38:00 -
[2]
I keep hearing about this "Volley" mode yet dont' see a "Volley" option on my screen, am I missing a shortcut key somewhere?
Also I heard limited grouping is available but I don't see how that is possible eiteher.
Sorry for hijacking.
Red
|
Kri Anna
|
Posted - 2010.03.24 21:07:00 -
[3]
If all your guns are identical, you can hold down shift and drag one gun on top of another.
This will group them...repeat for all guns!
You can do this from the fitting screen, or from your normal overview when in space.
|
DawnTreader
|
Posted - 2010.03.24 21:14:00 -
[4]
Or hit the small white triangle to the right of your speed and 'enter grouping mode' to arrange the groups. 'Exit grouping mode' when you're done.
|
Sneaky Noob
Ice Fire Warriors
|
Posted - 2010.03.24 21:19:00 -
[5]
to OP:
Alpha Strikes can instapop ships before they have the chance to rep/get reps/warp out/dock/jump out...
factor in that, for the most part, high volley damage means much larger range and you start to see the importance of volley damage alongside the all important dps factor.
disclaimer for any of you "special people" i'm not saying that volley is more important, just letting the OP know why alpha is an important factor in PvP. ----- The Sneakiest Noob in EVE |
Vultirnus
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
|
Posted - 2010.03.24 21:27:00 -
[6]
Thanks sneaky, I can see you're point.
|
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 00:59:00 -
[7]
If you're new to using EFT you should keep in mind that those DPS and volley numbers are both theoretical maximums and you very likely won't actually be hitting for that much in game. Things like tracking, signature, range, resists, etc. are not taken into account. That said, unless I am fitting for a situation where I specifically want high alpha I usually look at DPS.
|
0oO0oOoOo0o
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 07:25:00 -
[8]
Ofc. dps is the more important number, but in short fights a high Alpha also means a higher dps, because the first volley comes immediately and free of waiting time.
|
foksieloy
Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 07:42:00 -
[9]
Alpha is important especially for psychological combat.
If you are in a destroyer, and a interceptor is flying towards you, and in one shot you take out its shields and some armor, that interceptor pilot just might panic, and screw up. Even though if it was to reach you and keep a close orbit it would **** you, a lot of them will try running away or something, which usually results in the second shot taking them out.
Also alpha is king for taking out those pesky passive shield tankers, because it helps you push them out of peak recharge. Something you would be hard pressed to do with constant damage, but low alpha. _______________________ We come for our people! |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 10:32:00 -
[10]
The day you are at a gate with your BC and see 6 tempest warp in at 50 km with 1400mm you will discover what alpha strike serves for....
|
|
gnome proper
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 18:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Seishi Maru The day you are at a gate with your BC and see 6 tempest warp in at 50 km with 1400mm you will discover what alpha strike serves for....
Only need four Artypests for a BC.
|
Msgerbs
Gallente Imperial Assualt Guild Raikiri Assasins
|
Posted - 2010.03.27 01:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sneaky Noob to OP:
Alpha Strikes can instapop ships before they have the chance to rep/get reps/warp out/dock/jump out...
factor in that, for the most part, high volley damage means much larger range and you start to see the importance of volley damage alongside the all important dps factor.
disclaimer for any of you "special people" i'm not saying that volley is more important, just letting the OP know why alpha is an important factor in PvP.
------ C&P wannabe
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist doing what C&P is great for... Blowing them up! Heck pod everyone you pirates, Get off the forums and go kill someone!
|
Khin'charin
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.03.28 15:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Khin''charin on 28/03/2010 15:21:28
Originally by: Seishi Maru The day you are at a gate with your BC and see 6 tempest warp in at 50 km with 1400mm you will discover what alpha strike serves for....
Wait, what the... _________________________________ More blood for the blood god. Eternal darkness to the infidels. |
Joe Censored
Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 02:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Khin'charin Edited by: Khin''charin on 28/03/2010 16:10:44
Originally by: Seishi Maru The day you are at a gate with your BC and see 6 tempest warp in at 50 km with 1400mm you will discover what alpha strike serves for....
Wait, what the... Sister, is that you?
Anyways... Here's a situational theorycrafted scenario that might shed some light on why Volley damage matters.
Ship 1 has 150 DPS and 2,400 HP Ship 2 has 125 DPS and 2,400 HP
So in theory, by DPS numbers and effective hitpoints, Ship 1 wins the fight. No brainer there, right? But in practice, ship 2 actually wins...
Come into play volley damage and rate of fire: Ship 1 gets 150 DPS with it's 4 sec ROF and 600 Volley damage. Ship 2 gets 125 DPS with it's 10 sec ROF and 1250 Volley Damage.
Assuming both ship starts to fire at eachother simultaneously, scoring full dmg hits and no resists into play we get the following.
After 10 seconds into the fight Ship 1 explodes and ship 2 warps off with 600 HP left in hull. Ship 1 has made 1800 HP damage to ship 2 with the 3 volleys it got off in the fight before it exploded. Ship 2 made 2500 HP damage with the 2 volleys it got off in the fight.
Fake edit: Hope I got the maths right to prove the point. Edited, edited.
This ^^^
They are both important, but high volly damage can get you the edge, plus also get you more final blows on kills in groups. With volley damage, remember that all your dps from that volley are applied immediately. So if you volley for 1500 damage every 5 seconds - meaning 300 dps, in a 16 second fight you should actually have fired 4 times total. That means in reality over that 16 seconds your ship actually showed (1500 x 4) / 16 = 375 DPS. Only in a 19.9999999 second fight would your ship actually put out the expected 300 dps.
|
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 06:19:00 -
[15]
There is no ship though that would kill its own ship type in 2 volleys. In general dps > volley, but higher volley is better than lower volley.
|
foksieloy
Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 07:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: foksieloy on 30/03/2010 07:26:19
Originally by: Furb Killer There is no ship though that would kill its own ship type in 2 volleys. In general dps > volley, but higher volley is better than lower volley.
Solo, nope.
But in fleets high alpha gives you the advantage of killing a ship even when it is being repaired by logistics. Thats why generally railguns are not really loved much in sniper fleets. Unlike lasers and projectiles.
EDIT: lag is of course the biggest reason for alpha damage superiority. You do more damage, and spend less time cycling your guns. _______________________ We come for our people! |
Alooh
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 20:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Furb Killer There is no ship though that would kill its own ship type in 2 volleys. In general dps > volley, but higher volley is better than lower volley.
Hmmm. Even a Stealth Bomber? Can a glass cannon be shattered by two volleys from another torp fitted SB?
|
Wild Fox
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 20:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Furb Killer There is no ship though that would kill its own ship type in 2 volleys.
Really? Besides SBs (which would kill other SBs with a single bomb), I am pretty sure a glass-cannon-fit arty Thrasher would be able to two-volley another glass-cannon-fit arty Thrasher.
FOx
|
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 21:05:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 30/03/2010 21:11:11
Thesis: higher volley damage equals higher damage Proof: Example: true DPS of ship A compared to ship B
Ship A (high volley damage): 1000 DPS, 20.000 volley damage, 20 sec. ROF Ship B (low volley damage): 1000 DPS, 2.000 volley damage, 2 sec. ROF ceteris paribus
Damage dealt after seconds: 01 sec.: A=20.000, B=2.000 05 sec.: A=20.000, B=6.000 10 sec.: A=20.000, B=12.000 15 sec.: A=20.000, B=14.000 20 sec.: A=40.000, B=22.000 30 sec.: A=40.000, B=32.000 60 sec.: A=80.000, B=62.000 etc.
Conclusion: While the DPS is the same, a weapon with high alpha will always inflict more damage (the shorter the fight, the bigger the difference).
|
Shivan'Dragon
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 21:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 30/03/2010 21:11:11
Thesis: higher volley damage equals higher damage Proof: Example: true DPS of ship A compared to ship B
Ship A (high volley damage): 1000 DPS, 20.000 volley damage, 20 sec. ROF Ship B (low volley damage): 1000 DPS, 2.000 volley damage, 2 sec. ROF ceteris paribus
Damage dealt after seconds: 01 sec.: A=20.000, B=2.000 05 sec.: A=20.000, B=6.000 10 sec.: A=20.000, B=12.000 15 sec.: A=20.000, B=14.000 20 sec.: A=40.000, B=22.000 30 sec.: A=40.000, B=32.000 60 sec.: A=80.000, B=62.000 etc.
Conclusion: While the DPS is the same, a weapon with high alpha will always inflict more damage (the shorter the fight, the bigger the difference).
True but a little incomplete.
As the fight goes on longer the dps shines, for short lived fights, higher volley ships do more damage than lower volley ships. The time difference is realted to the amount difference between dps and volley. Also as stated above one of the biggest advatage of volley is braking passive shiled tanks and cap boosted armor reppers, especially dual repping gallente *****s :D. To maximixe select a ship and fit it for volley damage, make sure the ships volleys are firing clos to the or faster if possible than the repair cycle of the enemy reppers. They will either run out of cap boosters eventually or cant keep up with each volley. Works excellent as minmatar vs gallente.
|
|
Khin'charin
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.03.31 06:08:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Khin''charin on 31/03/2010 06:09:30
Originally by: Furb Killer There is no ship though that would kill its own ship type in 2 volleys. In general dps > volley, but higher volley is better than lower volley.
Actually: http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=5854954
...2 Volleys.
But yeah, most shiptypes dont 2 volley eachother very often.
Edit: borked linkeh _________________________________ More blood for the blood god. Eternal darkness to the infidels. |
Khin'charin
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.03.31 06:40:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Khin''charin on 31/03/2010 06:46:59
Originally by: Shivan'Dragon True but a little incomplete.
As the fight goes on longer the dps shines,
Not true, if same DPS between the two.
Quote: for short lived fights, higher volley ships do more damage than lower volley ships.
If same DPS between the two, higher volley damage ship will do more damage than counterpart regardless of how long the fight is.
Quote: The time difference is realted to the amount difference between dps and volley.
what?
Quote: Also as stated above one of the biggest advatage of volley is braking passive shiled tanks and cap boosted armor reppers, especially dual repping gallente *****s :D.
High volley damage have so many more advantages than these two that I don't even know where to begin.
Quote: To maximixe select a ship and fit it for volley damage, make sure the ships volleys are firing clos to the or faster if possible than the repair cycle of the enemy reppers. They will either run out of cap boosters eventually or cant keep up with each volley. Works excellent as minmatar vs gallente.
Holy theorycrafting batman. Just shoot the damn thing and stop thinking so much.
Edit: borked quote _________________________________ More blood for the blood god. Eternal darkness to the infidels. |
Shivan'Dragon
|
Posted - 2010.04.03 08:15:00 -
[23]
The relationship (how they rank against each other, how they would look if they were graphed on a Cartesian coordinate system) between Dps and Volley depends on time. I was giving a little more in depth look to the, initial volley is instant, therefore the by the end of the first cycle, weapons apply twice the volley damage that they are are quoted for, therefore surpassing the damage output of low volley high dps weapon systems. Please do not troll with things like it depends how well the shot hit and resistances etc. We all know that. This is just theoretical comparison. Same with the other two lines that you quoted. I am not comparing 2 ships that have the same dps and different volleys. It is almost trivial which one is better on instances where the dps is the same but one has higher volley or volleys are the same but one has higher dps, or one has so much dps that the volley advantage of the second ship does not matter etc...
|
Mutant Caldari
Caldari Psykotic Meat Wildly Inappropriate.
|
Posted - 2010.04.03 11:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Khin'charin Edited by: Khin''charin on 31/03/2010 06:09:30
Originally by: Furb Killer There is no ship though that would kill its own ship type in 2 volleys. In general dps > volley, but higher volley is better than lower volley.
Actually: http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=5854954
...2 Volleys.
But yeah, most shiptypes dont 2 volley eachother very often.
Edit: borked linkeh
I knew even before I clicked it that would be me -.-;. Don't worry, I will get you back for that once I reactivate Russel. Only 5 days until Medium Projectiles 5 anyway Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it? http://www.wi-alliance.com/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=32678 http://roadkill.igs-corp.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=32678 |
Khin'charin
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.04.05 06:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shivan'Dragon I was giving a little more in depth look...
You failed to state that though. You gave an incorrect answer to a post that explicitly used same DPS numbers on both ships. So, I wasn't trolling you.
Originally by: Mutant Caldari I knew even before I clicked it that would be me -.-;.
_________________________________ More blood for the blood god. Eternal darkness to the infidels. |
Shivan'Dragon
|
Posted - 2010.04.05 22:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Khin'charin
You gave an incorrect answer to a post that explicitly used same DPS numbers on both ships. So, I wasn't trolling you.
What I quoted was not a question, it was a statement. I thought it was true but incomplete so I added more to it since it is not practical to compare ships which have same dps but different volley numbers. In general ships in EvE will have either high dps and mediocre volley or the opposite. So my post is not an answer to the quoted post, it is a post in respect to the original question which is at the top of this list, therefore your statement of it being a post that explicitly used same dps numbers on both ships does not apply.
|
Khin'charin
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.04.06 13:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shivan'Dragon
Originally by: Khin'charin
You gave an incorrect answer to a post that explicitly used same DPS numbers on both ships. So, I wasn't trolling you.
What I quoted was not a question, it was a statement. I thought it was true but incomplete so I added more to it since it is not practical to compare ships which have same dps but different volley numbers. In general ships in EvE will have either high dps and mediocre volley or the opposite. So my post is not an answer to the quoted post, it is a post in respect to the original question which is at the top of this list, therefore your statement of it being a post that explicitly used same dps numbers on both ships does not apply.
And here I thought you were some kind of nutcase. Good thing we cleared this up. I actually agree with you now.
_________________________________ More blood for the blood god. Eternal darkness to the infidels. |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.04.06 21:44:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 06/04/2010 21:45:26
Originally by: Shivan'Dragon
What I quoted was not a question, it was a statement. I thought it was true but incomplete so I added more to it since it is not practical to compare ships which have same dps but different volley numbers.
This makes no sense. I was proving that if the ships have same dps, the one with the high alpha inflicts more true damage at any point in time. For proving this statement you MUST compare ships of same DPS.
Quote:
In general ships in EvE will have either high dps and mediocre volley or the opposite.
This isn't true. You have different ship classes and weapon systems that have a comparable DPS. For example the battleship railgun and battleship artillery have a broadly similar DPS, with the diffrence that artillery has a high and railguns have a low alpha, so i don't see a point in your criticism.
|
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
|
Posted - 2010.04.06 22:28:00 -
[29]
During the first couple years after EVE release, alpha strike was an important concept. There were ships that could 1 volley frigs, cruisers, and even pure-gank battleships sometimes.
Then we had a 50% HP boost and increasing stacking penalties, alpha became rather useful, instead it's all about the dps now.
From personal experience, if you are fighting battleships, you want at least 600 dps to be effective (tho you can kill with less, it's just not generally efficient)
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |