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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.03.29 18:06:00 -
[1]
I post this here for lack of a better place. I've traded piracy for enslaving those minmatar heathens for the glorious amarr empire but I'm having a bit of a problem. Several players on the minimatar side like to form missions but never actually run them with their minmatar militia toons. Instead they use neutral alts to do them. No big deal right since it's low sec, I'm already an outlaw and I can just kill them anyways? Well yeah but it's still annoying as **** and many in the militia are a little more skittish about being -9.x than I.
I petitioned one of these players and the response I got back was it wasn't an exploit. Rather than argue it with that genius of a GM, I thought I'd bring it here. How can it not be an exploit? FW missions require you to fly to you're enemy's systems and throw a beacon up on overview telling everyone in system where the mission is and what ships are allowed. They are designed to have player resistance as an integral part of them. This mechanic is defeated by having neutral characters run them. This is made worse by the fact that they are not flagged to the opposing militia despite them being actively engaged in combat with the opposing militia's npc's.
This exploit is little different from having a neutral alt remote rep an outlaw in high sec who is actively engaged in a criminal act and having said alt not receive GCC for it. It would also be like having neutrals remote rep a war target in high sec yet the neutral repper NOT get flagged to you for it. Thoughts?
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.29 18:09:00 -
[2]
I fully agree with you, but your mistake is that you are new: CCP doesn't give a flying **** about FW, and wishes we'd all go to 0.0 instead.
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Iaoth
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Posted - 2010.03.29 18:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: chatgris ........ CCP doesn't give a flying **** about FW.............
This.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.29 18:18:00 -
[4]
Escalate it.
There was a series of people using neutrals to hold aggro inside plexes thus preventing the enemy from stopping them without taking GCC .. it is now deemed an exploit.
Using neutrals to run missions does the exact same thing, opponents have no option to stop it unless they take GCC which goes against both spirit and intent of FW.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.29 20:03:00 -
[5]
Define exploit... missions have always worked were someone else can probe it out and finish it for you. Obviously FW shouldn't be any different.
Or is the complaint something else?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.29 20:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain Or is the complaint something else?
A is member of Militia AA, at war with B who a is member of Militia BB. C is unaffiliated.
"A" accepts a FW mission, flies to target system and pops the missions site. Beacon is now on overview, designed thus to promote PvP in FW. "A" then has "C" do the missions while he goes back to agent.
"B" comes along and sees the beacon. Warps to mission and enters only to find the neutral "C" inside. Only way "B" can now disrupt the mission and deny "A" from making another 50M is to accept a hit to security status and a criminal flag.
With the use of neutrals for aggro purposes in regular plexes being an exploit, I sincerely doubt using neutrals to run missions is condoned. Then again CCP have been exploring hypocrisy and double standards a lot when it comes to FW so might just be "ingenious way to print ISK".
Either way, CCP needs to change the missions so that they can be forcibly closed after running the umpteenth stealthbomber out. Force people to fight for their LP. "The Fox Hunt" is a good example of how it should be done, anyone can activate final spawn container and close the mission thus forcing a "fail" or "completion".
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Sunset Rogue
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Posted - 2010.03.29 20:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain Define exploit... missions have always worked were someone else can probe it out and finish it for you. Obviously FW shouldn't be any different.
Or is the complaint something else?
His complaint is that he lacks the skill to kill most targets unless he has npc support. Oh, and the targets must be PvE fit or it just would not be fair at all
Also:
Originally by: chatgris ........ CCP doesn't give a flying **** about FW.............
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.29 21:08:00 -
[8]
FW is one of the mechanisms to have people "meet" and eventually escalate into PvP, exactly like having salvage at hi sec L4 missions is. Having someone else at the big sign "hit me" mission is still PvP. This is all what CCP intends to do.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.03.29 21:12:00 -
[9]
Hate to break it to you but catching stealth bombers isn't easy, npc help or not. I find it fun, it's far more challenging than going to auga with a bigger blob. There's a guy who I regularly hunt since he runs a lot of missions, after a failed attempt at catching him he said "catching bombers is tricky business." I couldn't agree more, most do get away. In any case it doesn't matter, it's still clearly an exploit although that particular GM thought otherwise. We'll see if it gets escalated.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Ka Jolo
The Tuskers The Tusker Bastards
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Posted - 2010.03.29 23:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: King Rothgar Several players on the minimatar side like to form missions but never actually run them with their minmatar militia toons. Instead they use neutral alts to do them. No big deal right since it's low sec, I'm already an outlaw and I can just kill them anyways? Well yeah but it's still annoying as **** and many in the militia are a little more skittish about being -9.x than I.
Here's an idea: Why don't Amarr pilots start dealing with this issue with neutral alts of their own? You could end up with your pristine Amarr FW pilots and your completely unrelated criminal alts--alts that may even be overlooked by Minmatar FW gangs looking for trouble!
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.03.30 00:05:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/03/2010 00:06:30 It's lame but don't think for one second that it's exclusive to Minmatar. There are a whole slew of Amarr guys that do the same damn thing. They run around and pop all the missions in their shuttle then go back to complete them with neutral alts.
Speaking of Amarr.. WTF are you guys planning on undocking? FW missions are about the only reason to be in FW anymore due to lack of WT's willing to undock. .....
FactionWarfare.com New forum dedicated to all four FW factions. |
GavinGoodrich
Ungrouped Guns Don't Panic.
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Posted - 2010.03.30 00:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ralnik Edited by: Ralnik on 30/03/2010 00:06:30 It's lame but don't think for one second that it's exclusive to Minmatar. There are a whole slew of Amarr guys that do the same damn thing. They run around and pop all the missions in their shuttle then go back to complete them with neutral alts.
Or they just use two characters. 1 to kite the NPC's, 1 to finish the mission itself \o |
Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.03.30 00:45:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/03/2010 00:47:28
Originally by: GavinGoodrich
Originally by: Ralnik Edited by: Ralnik on 30/03/2010 00:06:30 It's lame but don't think for one second that it's exclusive to Minmatar. There are a whole slew of Amarr guys that do the same damn thing. They run around and pop all the missions in their shuttle then go back to complete them with neutral alts.
Or they just use two characters. 1 to kite the NPC's, 1 to finish the mission itself
Na, I use two characters, to run mine. One takes aggro one does the killing but both are in FW. I've seen quite a few Amarr doing the mix of either having one FW alt and one neutral or doing what he's complaining about and just completely using neutrals once the mission is popped.
This is most definitely not a Minmatar only thing, because I've seen Amarr doing it for quite some time. I'm sure Caldari and Gallenete guys do it as well.
I will say that even though I think it's gay, it's really not an exploit because CCP's idea of an exploit is if you somehow circumvent the loss of standings issue. This is more along the lines of using neural RR alts.
Meaning it's likely not an exploit but more so bad sportsmanship or just very gay. .....
FactionWarfare.com New forum dedicated to all four FW factions. |
GavinGoodrich
Ungrouped Guns Don't Panic.
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Posted - 2010.03.30 01:05:00 -
[14]
I don't disagree from the end result of it. However...it's the path of least resistance for most people, including myself. Hell I might even start using 3 chars for doing these even faster, soon.
Humans test the limits of just about everything we see. Unfortunately, the limits of the game mechanics here don't stretch very far. Easy to manipulate, easy to profit from it.
If it changes to be more challenging, like sleeper A.I., it probaly won't be as gay. \o |
Sargon I
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Posted - 2010.03.30 05:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: chatgris CCP doesn't give a flying **** about FW, and wishes we'd all go to 0.0 instead.
rofl--keep wishing ccp.. in fact, if you wish it hard enough I bet you'll even be able to hear my laughter. don't blame fw players because your precious 0.0 sucks to us; we're not the ones that want the pretty 0.0 political news stories on tentonhammer, mmorpg.com, et al.
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.03.30 07:04:00 -
[16]
Problem is that you can not take militia mission without being in militia and everyone does not want to be in it so they make low sp alt who takes mission and their main shoots the targets.
I agree, nerf neutrals from doing fw missions, then my income as militia member will rise to skyhigh.
I am fully supporting this as i want to see how my wallet grow.
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Biczkowski
Minmatar Ghosts of War Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.03.30 08:01:00 -
[17]
tell me, how can I as an FW outsider find those mission runners? just warp to that cyno-like FW-beacon and pew pew? or do I have to use probes to scan them down?
forgive me my cluelessness about FW but since UO's lol-faction-warfare I have an aversion against any artificial faction-system ontop of a long existing mmo :(
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.30 09:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Biczkowski tell me, how can I as an FW outsider find those mission runners? just warp to that cyno-like FW-beacon and pew pew? or do I have to use probes to scan them down?
Any overview beacon that is not a cyno in the FW areas is FW related. There is no probing involved whatsoever. The button-orbit plexes have 'Outpost', 'Compound' and 'Installation' in their names and wither have a blob or a single speeder inside (ie. not worth it for 'neutrals'). The missions are any beacon with names not containing the above. Normally have a stealthbomber and a speeder (for aggro) inside, some can have quite juicy targets though but it is rare. Know that they are size restricted so do a show info on the beacon to see size before warping, most are BC down since lvl4s are so ridiculously easy that doing any other is a waste of time .
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.03.30 09:21:00 -
[19]
I don't doubt that players in all the militia's do this. I personally don't and I'd say a majority don't. But those that do are irritating. This is doubly true since I've thrown a second non outlaw character into FW. That toon's skills are better suited to catching bomber pilots but if it's a neutral bomber, I really have no choice but to use this character to attempt the dirty work.
Unlike neutral remote reppers in high sec, they don't get flagged to you. That's the problem. In high sec wars those neutrals get a flagging to your corp. You may or may not have the capability to kill them but you have kill rights on them for 15 minutes regardless. In FW they don't get flagged and it's low sec, so you can kill them anyways. But don't plan on visiting high sec again anytime soon if you make a habit of it. And that's what I'm complaining about and why I see it as an exploit. It's exploiting a bug in the flagging system, if a neutral attacks your NPC's, you should receive a 15 minute aggression timer on them. This currently does not happen.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.03.30 09:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Biczkowski tell me, how can I as an FW outsider find those mission runners? just warp to that cyno-like FW-beacon and pew pew? or do I have to use probes to scan them down?
forgive me my cluelessness about FW but since UO's lol-faction-warfare I have an aversion against any artificial faction-system ontop of a long existing mmo :(
Just warp to the beacon but it's hardly the pew pew you are looking for. Most people use stealth bombers to run them and if they are smart you will have to be very lucky to catch them.
Gr .....
FactionWarfare.com New forum dedicated to all four FW factions. |
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.03.30 10:14:00 -
[21]
If he is paying attention there is 0 chance of catching bomber in mission. The second you warp in he warps out... But tbh i havent encountered this tactics in militia yet /but i dont do sb hunting often/. What i dont like about fw mission plexes is "random" agro of faction npcs /friendly/.
Also :
Originally by: chatgris CCP doesn't give a flying **** about FW
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.03.30 14:27:00 -
[22]
Kill them.
Is taking the sec hit that much of a tragedy? If you need an RP reason, you are saving your NPC brosefs from the naughty neutral alt. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Millie Clode
Amarr Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2010.03.30 15:32:00 -
[23]
FW: lowsec for people too scared to go GCC.
Who cares if they are using a neutral alt? They are taking a ton of NPC aggro, it should be an easy kill.
Even those lame smartbomb campers you amarr militia folk have shacked up with in amamake are less weak than this thread ---------- Sig Page 1 Snipah YOU CANT MINE SO YOU KILL |
Sneaky Noob
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.03.30 17:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Millie Clode FW: lowsec for people too scared to go GCC.
Who cares if they are using a neutral alt? They are taking a ton of NPC aggro, it should be an easy kill.
Even those lame smartbomb campers you amarr militia folk have shacked up with in amamake are less weak than this thread
fw missions are made for smaller ships so NPC aggro really counts for **** all. ----- The Sneakiest Noob in EVE |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.30 17:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sneaky Noob fw missions are made for smaller ships so NPC aggro really counts for **** all.
Unless you're perma-jammed by the npcs.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.03.30 21:53:00 -
[26]
Response back from one of the senior GM's is it's not an exploit. However he said he would pass along the concern to the design team. Woo, faulty aggro mechanics ignored.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Mithril Ryder
Genstar Inc
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Posted - 2010.03.30 22:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Sneaky Noob fw missions are made for smaller ships so NPC aggro really counts for **** all.
Unless you're perma-jammed by the npcs.
Mmm jam. Any toast to go with that tasty NPC jam?
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.31 00:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mithril Ryder
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Sneaky Noob fw missions are made for smaller ships so NPC aggro really counts for **** all.
Unless you're perma-jammed by the npcs.
Mmm jam. Any toast to go with that tasty NPC jam?
If said toast will get the jam instead of me, I'll buy all the toast in New Eden!
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.31 10:53:00 -
[29]
Originally by: King Rothgar Response back from one of the senior GM's is it's not an exploit. However he said he would pass along the concern to the design team. Woo, faulty aggro mechanics ignored.
Classic CCP. They declare neutral speed tanking in plexes an exploit due to GCC/aggro but allow the exact same loop-hole in missions .. like a Space Opera Tragi-comedy
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.03.31 11:09:00 -
[30]
While we are on the subject of irritating exploits.. I figure I'll post up this little gem of major ***ottry.
Amarr FW pilot "Moli Stern" has had a long time alt inside Minmatar Militia named "Inflamer". This is something we are all used to as it's very easy for people to meta game in FW.
However he has sunk to extreme levels of suckage, by now using that alt as a Remote Repping logistics alt for his Amarr alt. Of course he's the quality PVP gem that leaves his alt inside the FW NPC corp, so there is little you can do about it.
I guess this is just one more reason why FW sucks so badly these days and useful for little more than LP farming.
The good news is he sucks so bad, he couldn't even kill my Cane when it was in structure while having his Drake & Broadsword being remote Repped by his Minmatar FW alt's scimitar.. L33t PVP I tell you what.. .....
FactionWarfare.com New forum dedicated to all four FW factions. |
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