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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.05.20 18:02:00 -
[181]
a bunch of people not liking being hotdropped but still no real argument for a cyno nerf there.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.20 18:14:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner
Originally by: Ephemeron I don't see any good arguments why we SHOULDN'T have a short range cyno jammer.
There have been many. Just none you choose to acknowledge or with which you agree.
For whatever reason, you choose to completely ignore the many, many methods for avoiding a hotdrop. Refusing to employ any of those methods is not an argument FOR adding such a module.
Having alternatives is not a good reason for disallowing short range cyno jammer. I'm sorry but this reasoning doesn't qualify as good. That's like saying, apples shouldn't exist because if you like fruits you can have oranges, mangoes, cherries, and bananas.
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner You talk about adding complexity, but this module would reduce it. It would save all the necessary scout and intel work that should be employed in anti-hotdrop tactics and fleet warfare in general. It seems to come down to a desire to limit the battlespace to whatever grid you are currently on. You also seem to be one of the few people having any issues with it.
Again, invalid reasoning. The short range cyno jammer complicates the battlefield by its mere existence. As it is a new variable, and all variables have to be accounted for when planning strategies. It doesn't get any more fundamental than that.
There are higher level complications, if you aren't satisfied with fundamentals. The defender has to choose whether to fit the cyno jammer or not, sacrificing a high slot, thus reducing battle effectiveness. Defender has to choose when to activate such a module, as he never knows for sure whether the attacker plans to use cyno or not. I'm sure activation will have some penalties. Things get complicated for the attacker, as the defender has no idea whether cyno will be used, the attacker has no idea whether a cyno jammer is used. Both sides are at equal disadvantage on information. Attacker has to plan for at least 2 scenarios, as opposed to one: plan of action of there is no cyno jammer, and plan of action if there is a cyno jammer. More advanced strategy would be to try maximize tackle and drop effectiveness by employing at least 2 people, where 1 proceeds by the plan that there is no cyno jammer, and other proceeds by the plan that there is cyno jammer.
These are high level complexities.
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner The vast majority of EVE seems to be getting along just fine.
Likewise, the vast majority of EVE was getting along just fine before caps were introduced to the game. It is silly to use that kind of argument, tho technically it is valid.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.05.20 18:27:00 -
[183]
so you dont believe such a jammer, effectively preventing the only method for removing camps, would not be a mandatory part in campers toolbox? What a ****head are you?
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Xtover
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.20 18:57:00 -
[184]
In low sec, a fair fight goes horribly wrong....
scout reports single recon jumping through gate.
8 man BC/BS gang get ready, the dram gets ready to tackle.
recon jumps through, holds cloak, decloaks then locks a couple of the BSs
the 8 BC/BS engage the single recon.
recon pops cyno, 12 bombers jump through and chew through the gate camp.
wait, who is being unfair here?
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.20 18:57:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 20/05/2010 19:00:42
Originally by: Robert Caldera so you dont believe such a jammer, effectively preventing the only method for removing camps, would not be a mandatory part in campers toolbox? What a ****head are you?
Only the most lazy and dim witted would fail in light of this simple counter.
I suggest looking into possibility of 2 people. One bait, one cyno. Can you connect the dots? If not, you deserve to fail.
For sake of good game design, I would be willing to make exception for Covert Cynos - make them unjammable. That should go for system jammers too. It's the general purpose cynos that are currently running unrestrained, that need something to reign them in.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.05.20 19:12:00 -
[186]
rofl and no, campers are not as bright as they would just cynojam their camp permanently with a dedicated ship only for that only purpose? Why am I actually argueing with such a noob like you?
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.20 19:23:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Robert Caldera rofl and no, campers are not as bright as they would just cynojam their camp permanently with a dedicated ship only for that only purpose? Why am I actually argueing with such a noob like you?
It would be more appropriate for me to ask that 2nd question. The answer is simple - just bored.
In case you have forgotten, the mobile cyno jammer is short range. Probably 25km radius. That means you can have a 2nd person warp in at 30-50 km from the gate and light the cyno, and have the drop before they can react.
Yes, hot dropping against a well prepared and organized opponent will no longer be a no brainer. As much as you hate those lowly gate camping pirates, if they are better than you, they deserve to win.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.05.20 19:53:00 -
[188]
I dont see a reason why hotdropping camps should be made more complicated and less effective. There is simply no reason.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.20 20:41:00 -
[189]
I recommend reading the first 2 posts again.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.05.20 21:06:00 -
[190]
I dont see an issue. Kill easyly, get killed easily its all fine.
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.05.20 22:34:00 -
[191]
ok I didn't read all 7 pages now but I also want to contribute something to this topic
I also do live in low sec and a fight with hot drop usually looks like this: a bunch of people come in the system start to camp the most populated station quickly a fleet is formed to get rid of the camping force both fleets engage and warp scramble each other and then the enemy fleet lights a cyno and brings in a carrier which quickly kills the defenders while they cant warp nor dock due to the aggression timer then the carrier cynos out again or waits out the station aggression time and docks up you could say now 'well bring own caps and kill it while it can't dock' you need a lot of siege dread for that (which the smal corp/alliance probably doesn't have) and if you can bring them and do it will probably result in more capitals being dropped by the enemy which will then destroy all of the siege dreads so no one ever does that in the first place you could bring a carrier at the very first but that would result in the enemy brining more caps and they usually pick out those corps\alliances that don't have much carriers (saying now HTFU and stay out of lowsec if you cant handle is maybe true but it would make low sec obsolete) if now there was 30km cyno jamer the camping gang probably wouldn't light a cyno in the first place as the carrier would make itself unable to dock and thus vulnerable to a lot less ships and even BS because they could destroy it then not attacking at first results in the main station or even system being shut down for a whole day or even longer
actually there is a easier way just make a 10km radius around low sec station's undock radius in wich cynos cant be lit but that would have other negatives....but I think those can be avoided by watching local and using a save spot to light the cyno at
so i hope i hit the thread starters point
Crazy ~o~
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ImAPostingAlt
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.21 04:00:00 -
[192]
Edited by: ImAPostingAlt on 21/05/2010 04:01:16
Originally by: Crazy KSK ok I didn't read all 7 pages now but I also want to contribute something to this topic
I also do live in low sec and a fight with hot drop usually looks like this: a bunch of people come in the system start to camp the most populated station quickly a fleet is formed to get rid of the camping force both fleets engage and warp scramble each other and then the enemy fleet lights a cyno and brings in a carrier which quickly kills the defenders while they cant warp nor dock due to the aggression timer
OK. 1) A single carrier puts out less DPS than a decent fit battleship and can be easily coutered with a smartbomb. 2) Each capital rep is equivalent to a sinlge logistics ship(normally a max of 2 unless it's a triage fit, in which case you've been outplayed although triage carriers are easy to counter drop)
then the carrier cynos out again or waits out the station aggression time and docks up you could say now 'well bring own caps and kill it while it can't dock' you need a lot of siege dread for that (which the smal corp/alliance probably doesn't have)
A single carrier can be killed with as few as 5 sieged dreads before it can dock
and if you can bring them and do it will probably result in more capitals being dropped by the enemy which will then destroy all of the siege dreads so no one ever does that in the first place you could bring a carrier at the very first but that would result in the enemy brining more caps and they usually pick out those corps\alliances that don't have much carriers (saying now HTFU and stay out of lowsec if you cant handle is maybe true but it would make low sec obsolete) if now there was 30km cyno jamer the camping gang probably wouldn't light a cyno in the first place as the carrier would make itself unable to dock and thus vulnerable to a lot less ships and even BS because they could destroy it then ( not true most large stations have massive docking radius and the carrier could cyno within rep range/drone range and wihtin docking range while being outside of the range of your cyno jammer) not attacking at first results in the main station or even system being shut down for a whole day or even longer
actually there is a easier way just make a 10km radius around low sec station's undock radius in wich cynos cant be lit but that would have other negatives....but I think those can be avoided by watching local and using a save spot to light the cyno at
(this option would make anybody trying to move a caps life through lowsec 100x harder. Its dangerous enough lighting cynos at a POS(guess where I light all the cynos for my Nyx at). Theres enough of an issue with moms solo ganking at POSes and cynos at safes are asking for some jackass to tackle you before you warp.)
so i hope i hit the thread starters point
Crazy ~o~
Edit: They really should add a preview button to these forums. Edited to make replies easier to find.
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Cyrus Doul
Cosmic Vacum Cleaners
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Posted - 2010.05.21 20:49:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 20/05/2010 19:00:42
Originally by: Robert Caldera so you dont believe such a jammer, effectively preventing the only method for removing camps, would not be a mandatory part in campers toolbox? What a ****head are you?
Only the most lazy and dim witted would fail in light of this simple counter.
I suggest looking into possibility of 2 people. One bait, one cyno. Can you connect the dots? If not, you deserve to fail.
For sake of good game design, I would be willing to make exception for Covert Cynos - make them unjammable. That should go for system jammers too. It's the general purpose cynos that are currently running unrestrained, that need something to reign them in.
This already happens with the system cyno jammers on pos. you cant normal cyno.but you can still cov ops cyno
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Untan
Minmatar League of Gentlemen
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Posted - 2010.05.21 22:37:00 -
[194]
Bring back the electro effect of the capital jump, i miss that effect personally. It was so awsome
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.05.22 09:36:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Robert Caldera I dont see a reason why hotdropping camps should be made more complicated and less effective. There is simply no reason.
I see your arguments are still made from the infinitely flawed assumption that capitals are only used against BS heavy gate camps .. you expect the rest of us to wait for reality to catch up to you or continue without you entirely? More complicated? That implies that it is complicated now which is stretching the truth just a tad. Unless of course you only count the numerous occasions where a 1-2 carrier drop is done by a single player multi-boxing - that is an indication as to how easy it is though not the other way around. And less effective? Provided a carrier isn't using 'conventional' RR modules it is just as effective at 30km as it is at 0km .. the only thing that would change is carriers ability to neut/point from the get go which is hardly a major game breaker.
I am still not convinced that a cyno displacer will have any effect at all, certainly not the desired one. With capital numbers going up daily the problems they cause in low-sec are going to get a lot worse. Between nodes not being re-inforcable (fights are usually impromptu anyway) and no way of removing unwanted neutral OV entries, I fear low-sec will degenerate even further in the years to come.
Keep their power but make pilots pay - multiply all fuel consumption (jump, cyno, triage) based on security of system and using conventionals will suddenly become an attractive alternative to dropping a bunch of capitals just because one can.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.22 23:27:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 22/05/2010 23:28:15
Quote: I am still not convinced that a cyno displacer will have any effect at all, certainly not the desired one.
I think the idea of cyno displacer is a bad one. As you guessed it would have little useful effect and just make things really weird for jumping ships.
Cyno jammer is the way to go. Cyno jammer would not prevent people from lighting a cyno beacon. It would prevent all the caps from jumping to it. So when they select the "jump to" command, they would get error - while cyno jammer is active and in range.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.05.23 01:12:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 22/05/2010 23:28:15
Quote: I am still not convinced that a cyno displacer will have any effect at all, certainly not the desired one.
I think the idea of cyno displacer is a bad one. As you guessed it would have little useful effect and just make things really weird for jumping ships.
Cyno jammer is the way to go. Cyno jammer would not prevent people from lighting a cyno beacon. It would prevent all the caps from jumping to it. So when they select the "jump to" command, they would get error - while cyno jammer is active and in range.
I don't understand. Why wouldn't every competent FC have one of these with his fleet at all times?
Eve is supposed to be about risks. If some asshat thinks it's funny to try to gank my cyno Kestrel with his Abaddon, he should be afraid that I am going to drop two supercarriers on him because I think it is funny.
If someone wants to sit on a gate in Tama with a smartbombing supercarrier and obliterate auto-piloting noobs, he shouldn't be immune to my hotdrop because he was one of your stupid modules on his alt. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.23 05:01:00 -
[198]
Originally by: FT Diomedes I don't understand. Why wouldn't every competent FC have one of these with his fleet at all times?
They would have it. Just as they have at least several cyno carrying ships. I believe that's the idea - the mobile cyno jammer will become a new tool in strategy planning.
Originally by: FT Diomedes Eve is supposed to be about risks. If some asshat thinks it's funny to try to gank my cyno Kestrel with his Abaddon, he should be afraid that I am going to drop two supercarriers on him because I think it is funny.
But in that case it is balanced already - you can cyno you ships with cheap disposable kestrels on an alt char. It costs you almost nothing, and thus the risk for killing it should also be almost nothing. Besides, if that Abaddon you mentioned decides to equip with a cyno jammer, he will be sacrificing one of his guns or heavy neuts - which is going to cost him when real fighting starts.
Originally by: FT Diomedes If someone wants to sit on a gate in Tama with a smartbombing supercarrier and obliterate auto-piloting noobs, he shouldn't be immune to my hotdrop because he was one of your stupid modules on his alt.
And indeed he won't be. As the cyno jammer will be limited range and you can still hot drop him all you want by lighting a cyno just 30km from him. It won't make much of a difference if you properly setup the trap.
Originally by: FT Diomedes A hotdrop ois the one method of attacking from over the horizon we have in Eve. Leave it alone. Unpredictability is fun.
Unfortunately, too much unpredictability ruins the fun as well, as it makes clever strategy planning less important than making wild gambles. I'd never propose something that completely removes random factors, or diminishes them to point of insignificance. I just want things to be more balanced, that's all.
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.05.23 11:33:00 -
[199]
There are some very good points made here...
1) You cannot scan or predict a cyno jump until it actually happens
2) There is no direct preventative measure (like there are Cyno Jammers in nullsec)
3) The indirect counter measure (kill the cyno ship) is extremely difficult
Most things in EVE have a balance or counter measure, this does seem to work more in favour of those doing the drop.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.05.24 05:53:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Wacktopia
Most things in EVE have a balance or counter measure, this does seem to work more in favour of those doing the drop.
It works more in favor of the side that achieves surprise. Hotdropping adds an element of uncertainty that is good. If you want to sit on a gate and camp it, then you usually put out scouts so that you can see the enemy coming and be prepared to hit F1-F8 or GTFO. This effectively takes all the risk out of gate camping. It also makes the defense incredibly powerful. The ability of the enemy to appear suddenly, on top of you and with relatively little warning restores some of the balance to the offense in this game.
Reading the comments in favor of limiting hotdropping, I am reminded of the frequent tear-soaked complaints about evil pirates appearing in mission deadspaces.
The person doing the hotdropping is putting some extremely valuable assets on the line. If they start to hotdrop you, then your best bet is to prepare your counter-hotdrop. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.05.24 11:09:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
I see your arguments are still made from the infinitely flawed assumption that capitals are only used against BS heavy gate camps
no, I didnt relate my statement to certain ship types, I'm just saying ship types involved dont matter absolutely.
Originally by: Wacktopia
2) There is no direct preventative measure (like there are Cyno Jammers in nullsec)
there is no direct preventative measure for enemy coming through a gate. Nerf gates.
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debbie harrio
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:30:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Wacktopia There are some very good points made here...
1) You cannot scan or predict a cyno jump until it actually happens
2) There is no direct preventative measure (like there are Cyno Jammers in nullsec)
3) The indirect counter measure (kill the cyno ship) is extremely difficult
Most things in EVE have a balance or counter measure, this does seem to work more in favour of those doing the drop.
I just don't understand what the problem is here.
if you can't kill the cyno ship to stop the hotdrop, warp out and safe up, what is the problem here.
If you weren't such kill mail wh*res you would also have the opportunity of jumping the gate but no, everybody locks and fires on the lone drake, well fools you have just been suckered, hot drops rely on people being such killmail wh*res, you limit your escape possibilities by all engaging without a thought for what is happening.
Learn to use tactics and maybe you would actually get the better of hotdrops.
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eocsnesemaj
Quiet.Storm Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.05.26 11:24:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Wacktopia
2) There is no direct preventative measure (like there are Cyno Jammers in nullsec)
there is no direct preventative measure for enemy coming through a gate. Nerf gates.
lulz
*Hot drops are good clean fun the whole family can enjoy* http://tinyurl.com/EostSig |
M3ta7h3ad
Caldari Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.27 23:03:00 -
[204]
I'm unaware if there is the following suggestion in the previous 7 pages of posts however.
A module that provides a ranged cyno-jamming field for a HIC is a great idea.
Add a fuel cost of liquid ozone so that it isn't just an instant always on win button and that's a cracking suggestion, if it requires a little nerf then add the penalty of no movement when activated.
Having warnings and a destroyable cyno field... thats where the OP's suggestions take a turn for the worse. ----- If you kill all the wolves, your gonna end up with a crapload of bunnies, and by bunnies I mean stupid people
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Ruhige Schmerz
Valhalla Naval Corp Black Nova Federation
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Posted - 2010.05.28 16:34:00 -
[205]
There's no defense against a cyno, but there's a defense against having your fleet hot dropped. There's this amazing yet underutilized module called a "Ship Scanner" which is usable with minimal skills, and will show you the fittings on the other ship. If you use this module, you'll know if it's a cyno ship before getting aggression.
That said, I'm in favor of altering the cyno mechanics significantly. Make them last 30 seconds and make the cyno not activate until the end of the cycle. Start of cycle, 'cyno opening' message / overview item. At the end of the cycle, the module deactivates, the cyno field itself goes up (for however long), and the cyno ship can GTFO or whatever it wants to do.
Yes this would change cyno mechanics, obviously that is the point, but I think it would change them in ways that benefit everyone.
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debbie harrio
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Posted - 2010.05.29 11:46:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz There's no defense against a cyno, but there's a defense against having your fleet hot dropped. There's this amazing yet underutilized module called a "Ship Scanner" which is usable with minimal skills, and will show you the fittings on the other ship. If you use this module, you'll know if it's a cyno ship before getting aggression.
That said, I'm in favor of altering the cyno mechanics significantly. Make them last 30 seconds and make the cyno not activate until the end of the cycle. Start of cycle, 'cyno opening' message / overview item. At the end of the cycle, the module deactivates, the cyno field itself goes up (for however long), and the cyno ship can GTFO or whatever it wants to do.
Yes this would change cyno mechanics, obviously that is the point, but I think it would change them in ways that benefit everyone.
shakes head, your first suggestion is the answer, these uber km wh*res in the gate camp could drop a sensor booster to scan the lone drakes, they have enough fitted to lose one, if it has a cyno gen, don't engage, the second suggestion, well 30 seconds would clear the field, what would be the point of carriers, dreads etc, how could you trap SC's or titans outside pos's when they have 30 secs to slingshot them to safety, that would just absolutely break the game.
The problem here is that bad PVPers want to carry on killing Noob's in their burst's and ospreys to bolster their killboard stats without risk, the hot drop on them is exactly the same as what they do to the aforementioned Noob's.
Nothing to see here, move on please.
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Fiachra Bourke
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.05.29 16:17:00 -
[207]
Haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if what I say has been said already.
Being EVE the game that it is, every possible situation should have a counter. That counter should not be more of what the other side brought; that would only create more blobs that so many people don't like. While many big BS and cap fleets are needed in 0.0 for the sake of taking down all the big structures there, the big BS and cap fleets (in this case brought in by a cyno) should not be an instant win as is often happening in low sec.
That is not to say that hot drops are unfair or just completely overpowered. If EVE were to operate based on fairness, I'm sure that there would only be a fraction of the player base. The problem is that outside of 0.0, there isn't really anything you can do but run away from a hot drop.
There are many cases where the only reasonable option is to get out of dodge, such as when a group of 10 players come roaming through your current system while you are only with 2-3 buddies. This situation, while requiring an ounce of intelligence, can easily be countered by quickly warping to safes, and/or scouting the gang to see if you can actually go toe to toe with them.
The problem with hot drops is not the unpredictability that comes with them, but also the speed with which they appear. This creates a deadly brew that, in the current system, has no counter.
I believe that hot drops, while having at least some sort of counter in 0.0, should have some sort of counter in low sec as well. Maybe restrict only certain types of cyno fields in low sec so that 0.0 is unaffected. This way, there could be something that could counter low sec hot drops. I'm not recommending a 10 second warning or a complete jam on a cyno ship, that is ridiculous.
Maybe there could be a high slot scanner that scans for ships with a cyno attached. Once the scan is completed, in x seconds, a window pops up listing the ships with cynos (similar to an asteroid scanner). This could give any FC in a small gang the ability to scan ships on the grid for a cyno and call a quick primary. Now, given the amount of time that this takes, it would not render hot drops ineffective by any means. A good hot drop gang could easily get ships onto the grid before the cyno ship is eliminated. Aside from the amount of time it takes to run the scanner, the FC would actually have to scan and then quickly yell in comms to call the target out. This would give the opposing players to realise there is a cyno on the ship before the player actually starts to use it. This means that it wouldn't be as easy as A-B-C to instantly hot drop a competent group of players; it would take some quick thinking and maneuvering to get into place to pop the cyno before going poof.
Please keep in mind that I am incredibly new to EVE. Forgive me for any mistakes regarding game mechanics or anything like that!
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.05.29 23:25:00 -
[208]
thing is you have that exact thing already with the ship scanner module, with the added bonus of telling you the rest of the fit as well.
The thing i think a lot of people dont realise is that hotdropping gets you a reputation for being hotdroppers, silly as that may sound it is an important thing to bear in mind. As an example I give an alliance that frequents amongst other places the low sec we live and roam in, Cry Havoc.
They frequently hotdrop and we know they do, hence there is very little chance of us engaging them unless we have no choice at all or if we're damn sure they dont have cynos fitted (by damn sure i mean having ship scanned every ship they have to make sure of it). So the surprise factor is out the window straight away and all it leaves is another risk factor to bear in mind when deciding if an engagement is worth it or not.
to put it more generally, its certainly possible that lone drake that just jumped into our gatecamp could drop a cyno and bring in his cap fleet to **** our faces(assuming his corp/alliance has enough skilled pilots to field one, that theyre all in range and all ready to jump), its also possible he dies in a fire while we laugh at his failfit or he has a competent fit, knows how to pvp and was just unlucky. That doesnt make the hotdrop or the cyno overpowered or in need of a new counter, especially considering the effort and cost corps or alliances have to go to to have it available as a tactic in the first place.
Anyway i kinda feel like im rambling a bit now so ill leave it there.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
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