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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 18:10:00 -
[1]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 05/04/2010 18:11:42
I dunno wether this counts as talk of politics but...
This seems to be going pretty mainstream now:
Warning, this is a very distressing video on the site, so be warned:
http://collateralmurder.com/
Basicly wikileaks managed to aquire and de-encrypt a US video of an apache going hogwild on unarmed civilians he thought were armed.
The fact they mis-identified the people and killed them is horrific, the way they reacted to wounding the children is even worse, and the cover-up...
Quote: 5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Paknac Queltel
Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2010.04.05 18:11:00 -
[2]
Wikileaks is not wikipedia. "The thread-locks will blot out the sun!" "Then we will post in the shade!"
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Dario Wall
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Posted - 2010.04.05 18:13:00 -
[3]
Quote: WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video
Well that won't end well.
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 18:13:00 -
[4]
Like this kind of thing didn't happen in every other war ever fought by every single country in the world that has gone to war...
...one more reason people should think a little harder before letting some yahoo send people to war over nothing, **** happens...
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 18:48:00 -
[5]
In b4 people defend it.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 19:19:00 -
[6]
It is also up on the bbc news site(it is the most read news piece on the most popular news site in the united kingdom), so it is garnering a lot of attention across a lot of countries.
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Wuff Wuff
The Oliver Postgate Appreciation Club
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:00:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Wuff Wuff on 05/04/2010 20:05:40 That really is horrific.
Judging by what I saw in the video, there were no ground troops in the immediate vicinity, according the the radio chatter, and therefore in immediate danger, and I do not believe the Apaches themselves were at a high risk from the person they thought was carrying the RPG. It did not look like proper responsibility was not taken to ensure that the people sighted were actually carrying weapons. Opening fire on the rescuers was despicable. The fact that they were so quick to 'shoot first, ask questions later' when to me the situation did not look like it called for such immediate action was, if this was the case, grossly irresponsible.
I've never served in the military or lived in a combat zone so I can only go by what I'm looking at in the video. The flip side, as I'm sure someone will tell me, is that had they been carrying weapons and had they escaped, maybe they would have killed some coalition troops. I can't say that thought didn't cross my mind.
None of this is really surprising, neither is the cover up or the treatment of the injured children. What is surprising is that wikileaks did actually manage to get this out, perhaps proof that in this world of government and corporate power over the people, that maybe the internet is the salvation for humanity.
- Wuffles
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:14:00 -
[8]
I'm sorry, but the military's assesment of the situation is probably right on. It's a shame it happened but it appears that the people manning that apache were engaging what they thought to be insurgents. It does look like they were carying weapons on the footage. Knowing what we know before watching the footage would make one see it differently, but if you were in that apache and saw what they saw on that video, you would have probably made the same assesment. It's unfortunate, but it does appear that their actions were within reason.
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Zeke Mobius
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sokratesz In b4 people defend it.
Originally by: Kitimortoa I'm sorry, but the military's assesment of the situation is probably right on. It's a shame it happened but it appears that the people manning that apache were engaging what they thought to be insurgents. It does look like they were carying weapons on the footage. Knowing what we know before watching the footage would make one see it differently, but if you were in that apache and saw what they saw on that video, you would have probably made the same assesment. It's unfortunate, but it does appear that their actions were within reason.
I applaud you Sokratesz.
/seriousclap
As for you Kitimortoa, I hope your internet spaceship gets the same treatment as those war journalists...
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kitimortoa I'm sorry, but the military's assesment of the situation is probably right on. It's a shame it happened but it appears that the people manning that apache were engaging what they thought to be insurgents. It does look like they were carying weapons on the footage. Knowing what we know before watching the footage would make one see it differently, but if you were in that apache and saw what they saw on that video, you would have probably made the same assesment. It's unfortunate, but it does appear that their actions were within reason.
If their intentions are to murder anyone carrying a weapon, they should put a few AH64's circling over South Central, what a field day that would be.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zeke Mobius
Originally by: Sokratesz In b4 people defend it.
Originally by: Kitimortoa I'm sorry, but the military's assesment of the situation is probably right on. It's a shame it happened but it appears that the people manning that apache were engaging what they thought to be insurgents. It does look like they were carying weapons on the footage. Knowing what we know before watching the footage would make one see it differently, but if you were in that apache and saw what they saw on that video, you would have probably made the same assesment. It's unfortunate, but it does appear that their actions were within reason.
I applaud you Sokratesz.
/seriousclap
As for you Kitimortoa, I hope your internet spaceship gets the same treatment as those war journalists...
That's all fine and dandy, but if you don't like war, then stop electing people that send us to war without cause.
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Wuff Wuff
The Oliver Postgate Appreciation Club
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:29:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kitimortoa I'm sorry...
What about the rescuers in the van? I saw nothing which gave any indication that they were carrying weapons.
- Wuffles
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:32:00 -
[13]
There's no indication that they weren't insurgents either.
It is truly a sad thing that it happened, but I can see why it happened. It ****ing sux beyond words, but it's a reality of war, and it will not change, ever.
I would not doubt that those men in that apache probably felt like **** after they learned they killed civilians.
Don't blame the soldiers for doing what they are supposed to be doing. People should focus on the **** like Abu Ghraib, not this.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kitimortoa There's no indication that they weren't insurgents either.
..wait what?
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:39:00 -
[15]
Try reading the post right above that, that I was responding to instead of being stupid.
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Xen Gin
Silurian Operations
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Kitimortoa There's no indication that they weren't insurgents either.
..wait what?
Apparently it's up to them to prove they aren't insurgents after getting killed. _________________________________ ## You got that? Right I'll be back in approximately 300 seconds to retort! ## |
Saxton Hale
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:40:00 -
[17]
The guys trying to save the wounded should have been wearing t-shirts with "We are not insurgents" written on them.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kitimortoa Try reading the post right above that, that I was responding to instead of being stupid.
I did, it didn't change the fact that your statement was downright scary
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:44:00 -
[19]
Put yourself in the position of those guys in the apache, would you sit there and let them get away or possibly jump out and fire an rpg at them once they identified where you were? Would you want them driving around the corner and sitting there waiting for the troops to come look at the scene then opening fire on them?
It's really easy to sit back in your comfortable chair and say stupid crap like that without being in the situation where *you* or someone you know could possibly end up dead as well.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kitimortoa Put yourself in the position of those guys in the apache, would you sit there and let them get away or possibly jump out and fire an rpg at them once they identified where you were? Would you want them driving around the corner and sitting there waiting for the troops to come look at the scene then opening fire on them?
It's really easy to sit back in your comfortable chair and say stupid crap like that without being in the situation where *you* or someone you know could possibly end up dead as well.
I've been through three-quarters of the selection rounds for Apache pilot here in Holland, and one of the requirements is that you be not a complete moron and able to assess a situation even when under extreme pressure.
At no point was any tactical asset (see: official rules of engagement documents) under threat, not were they themselves. Judging by the distance, even if they had had an RPG, the apache would have been under no threat whatsoever.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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FOl2TY8
GoonWaffe SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:50:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sokratesz
If their intentions are to murder anyone carrying a weapon, they should put a few AH64's circling over South Central, what a field day that would be.
Texas first
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 05/04/2010 20:49:30
Originally by: Kitimortoa Put yourself in the position of those guys in the apache, would you sit there and let them get away or possibly jump out and fire an rpg at them once they identified where you were? Would you want them driving around the corner and sitting there waiting for the troops to come look at the scene then opening fire on them?
It's really easy to sit back in your comfortable chair and say stupid crap like that without being in the situation where *you* or someone you know could possibly end up dead as well.
I've been through three-quarters of the selection rounds for Apache pilot here in Holland, and one of the requirements is that you be not a complete moron and able to assess a situation properly even when under extreme pressure.
At no point was any tactical asset (see: official rules of engagement documents) under threat, nor were they themselves. Judging by the distance, even if they had had an RPG, it would not have been a threat to the Apache whatsoever.
The conclusion that they saw people carrying weapons was drawn way too fast and they seemed overly eager to engage.
Have you been to war? Have you been in that situation? It's a lot different than sitting back in your comfortable chair thinking rationally about things AFTER THE FACT, than being in the moment.
If you do get deployed to a warzone, I hope you do come back, and I hope you are able to asses situations better than those pilots, but I will not fault them for doing what they are supposed to be doing.
If they maliciously did some of the things some of the other soldiers have done in this war (and have been prosecuted for) then yeah, I would be the first to chime in that they were wrong, but honestly, aside from some stupid snide remarks made by some of those guys on the audio, they were doing what they percieved at the time to be the right actions to take.
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Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:54:00 -
[23]
When i hear "murder" I think of this lol
Pompous - lightening the load since 2008 :D ---
Even though you might disagree with what I say, that doesn't automatically make me a troll. |
Dodgy Past
Amarr Debitum Naturae BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:55:00 -
[24]
There are no consequences to the troops for murdering innocents and it has been like this for US incursions for a long time. Just think about what type of people will choose to remain vs. those that will choose to leave the forces when the realise the true barbarity involved.
Hardly a nice thought that they end up with a self selecting group of psychopaths and then enable them by removing any consequences to their actions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards. |
FOl2TY8
GoonWaffe SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:55:00 -
[25]
all soldiers should just kill themselves, ultimate sacrifice oorah
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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:58:00 -
[26]
I'll get my comment in before this gets locked.
The killings are horrific. The entire event was senseless and could have been avoided. What's worse, though, is the attitude displayed by the soldiers. Their approach to the entire event is despicable at best, and they bring shame upon my entire country.
While some say that this happens in every war, this is completely different. They were under no threat, and it seems to me that they were looking for a fight. They wanted to kill people, and would get their way regardless of the circumstances. There was no call for attacking anyone, and their commentary during the event is so abhorrent I'm ashamed to call them countrymen. They treated the situation as if it were a simple game, with a lighthearted attitude similar to one you would express on a Sunday stroll.
I'm sorry, but anyone who defends these monsters has lost any sense of their humanity. The taking of another's life is never a lighthearted matter, even if they were indeed threats. Every man, woman, and child killed anywhere, for any reason, is still a loss of life. Laughing about it and begging for more is inexcusable.
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Wuff Wuff
The Oliver Postgate Appreciation Club
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Wuff Wuff on 05/04/2010 21:04:29
Originally by: Kitimortoa Put yourself in the position of those guys in the apache...
But at what point did anyone in that rescue van look like they might have been insurgents and not just concerned people wanting to get that guy to a hospital? It's not like they didn't have sights trained on them the whole time.
Admittedly, I don't know how mad or brave you have to be to put yourself in the firing line like that (edit - regarding the rescuers), especially with kids in the van. I don't know if I would be enough of either in the same situation.
- Wuffles
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UnicornGary
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kitimortoa Put yourself in the position of those guys in the apache, would you sit there and let them get away or possibly jump out and fire an rpg at them once they identified where you were? Would you want them driving around the corner and sitting there waiting for the troops to come look at the scene then opening fire on them?
It's really easy to sit back in your comfortable chair and say stupid crap like that without being in the situation where *you* or someone you know could possibly end up dead as well.
That is indeed true, but at the very least I would expect an Officer who has been put in the command of that attack helicopter to be a professional, have a cool head and clear state of mind even when facing deadly circumstances. Regardless of the situation, video and comms display immaturity and complete lack of everything mentioned above.
P.S. Yes, I have served in armed forces.
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Wuff Wuff
Originally by: Kitimortoa Put yourself in the position of those guys in the apache...
But at what point did anyone in that rescue van look like they might have been insurgents and not just concerned people wanting to get that guy to a hospital? It's not like they didn't have sights trained on them the whole time.
Admittedly, I don't know how mad or brave you have to be to put yourself in the firing line like that, especially with kids in the van. I don't know if I would be enough of either in the same situation.
- Wuffles
There was no way they would have known those were children in that van, you can't tell from the video, I'm sure you couldn't tell from the distance they were at either.
If you notice, there were some soldiers running those children to transport when they discovered them on the scene.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Have you been to war? Have you been in that situation? It's a lot different than sitting back in your comfortable chair thinking rationally about things AFTER THE FACT, than being in the moment.
If you do get deployed to a warzone, I hope you do come back, and I hope you are able to asses situations better than those pilots, but I will not fault them for doing what they are supposed to be doing.
If they maliciously did some of the things some of the other soldiers have done in this war (and have been prosecuted for) then yeah, I would be the first to chime in that they were wrong, but honestly, aside from some stupid snide remarks made by some of those guys on the audio, they were doing what they percieved at the time to be the right actions to take.
Pilots are trained to make an armchair assessment even when under fire. If they can't do that, they are unfit to be pilots. Not the exact wordings, but that's roughly what an airforce recruitment officer will tell you. I won't be off to war for awhile because I was deemed 'too young'(17 lol) at the time but I am going to try it again after I finish my Msc.
My opinion of the video is that they used non-proportional violence in a situation where it was unclear what the hell was happening in the first place. If it was according to protocol, which I would like to know a lot more about, then maybe the protocol needs rewriting.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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