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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 18:48:00 -
[1]
In b4 people defend it.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:21:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Kitimortoa I'm sorry, but the military's assesment of the situation is probably right on. It's a shame it happened but it appears that the people manning that apache were engaging what they thought to be insurgents. It does look like they were carying weapons on the footage. Knowing what we know before watching the footage would make one see it differently, but if you were in that apache and saw what they saw on that video, you would have probably made the same assesment. It's unfortunate, but it does appear that their actions were within reason.
If their intentions are to murder anyone carrying a weapon, they should put a few AH64's circling over South Central, what a field day that would be.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:35:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kitimortoa There's no indication that they weren't insurgents either.
..wait what?
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:41:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kitimortoa Try reading the post right above that, that I was responding to instead of being stupid.
I did, it didn't change the fact that your statement was downright scary
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kitimortoa Put yourself in the position of those guys in the apache, would you sit there and let them get away or possibly jump out and fire an rpg at them once they identified where you were? Would you want them driving around the corner and sitting there waiting for the troops to come look at the scene then opening fire on them?
It's really easy to sit back in your comfortable chair and say stupid crap like that without being in the situation where *you* or someone you know could possibly end up dead as well.
I've been through three-quarters of the selection rounds for Apache pilot here in Holland, and one of the requirements is that you be not a complete moron and able to assess a situation even when under extreme pressure.
At no point was any tactical asset (see: official rules of engagement documents) under threat, not were they themselves. Judging by the distance, even if they had had an RPG, the apache would have been under no threat whatsoever.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Have you been to war? Have you been in that situation? It's a lot different than sitting back in your comfortable chair thinking rationally about things AFTER THE FACT, than being in the moment.
If you do get deployed to a warzone, I hope you do come back, and I hope you are able to asses situations better than those pilots, but I will not fault them for doing what they are supposed to be doing.
If they maliciously did some of the things some of the other soldiers have done in this war (and have been prosecuted for) then yeah, I would be the first to chime in that they were wrong, but honestly, aside from some stupid snide remarks made by some of those guys on the audio, they were doing what they percieved at the time to be the right actions to take.
Pilots are trained to make an armchair assessment even when under fire. If they can't do that, they are unfit to be pilots. Not the exact wordings, but that's roughly what an airforce recruitment officer will tell you. I won't be off to war for awhile because I was deemed 'too young'(17 lol) at the time but I am going to try it again after I finish my Msc.
My opinion of the video is that they used non-proportional violence in a situation where it was unclear what the hell was happening in the first place. If it was according to protocol, which I would like to know a lot more about, then maybe the protocol needs rewriting.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:16:00 -
[7]
It's kind of sad how we have gone from this to 'push buttan, see body parts fly'..
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
And what I'm saying, given the situation, what would make them think they're not insurgents? They just engaged what they believed to be the enemy, I'm sure they thought more were on their way to help their fallen comrades.
But, their was at no point a direct threat towards them, nor was there any other tactical asset at risk. There was no reason to shoot, even if they had been insurgents with weapons.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Again, easy to make that assesment when not there and not engaged in the situation. The biggest problem with war right now not only is the "push button, watch parts fly, repeat" is the fact we are sending children to war. Half of the people serving in these conflicts are still children regardless if they're 18 or 21. These kids that we're sending off to kill each other are going to be broken for the rest of their lives when they come back.
I agree with your posted video above, if people had to look eachother in the eye before they killed eachother more, we *might* have less wars, but somehow I doubt it, man is a very destructive creature.
As far as I'm aware you have to be 18 minimum to start officer school, which lasts 4 years, and then 2 years or something like that of flight training, so the pilots would be a minimum of 24 years old, probably older considering many do not get send to a warzone after they have a few years of experience.
It's impossible to put yourself in that situation, but as I said before, if they were acting by the book, maybe the book needs changing.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 05/04/2010 21:34:33
Quote: I'm assuming this is sarcasm because Warrant Officers pilot helicopters in the Army, and you don't need a college degree to become one. The gunners don't need them either.
That was pulled from the something awful forums(where it is enjoying being the most popular thread tonight ), so no you don't need a degree or to be an officer to pilot helicopters in the U.S army at least(warrant officers are not actual commisioned officers, they are the highest ranked non-commisioned soldiers though).
Hm, here in Holland you do.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:38:00 -
[11]
That, I agree with.
And I'm gonna watch Pacific pt4 now and sleep, cya the morrow o/
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler IBTL. I don't know what vid you guys were watching but I'm pretty sure I saw at least 3 long barrelled weapons being brandished by guys apart from the camera crew. When the fellow kneels down at the corner of the building it looks like he could be setting up to take a shot (his long lensed camera looks rather like an RPG-22 to me TBQH). From the radio chatter it sounds like there are ground units nearby, but not in the immeadiate vicinity. It's very easy to pass judgement sitting down, replaying the vid etc etc, but to me that very much looked like a group of armed men setting up for an ambush of some description.
The muzzle velocity of the M203 chain gun is 800m/s. Judging by the delay between discharge and impact, the helicopter was around 1km away from the men which is not at all unreasonable given the performance window of the Apache. 1km is double the effective range of even the most advanced RPG's, and if the men on the ground had been carrying guided AA missiles it would have been obvious, because those are a lot larger than an RPG.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:47:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 06/04/2010 07:47:28
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 07:35:39 Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 07:35:04 Assuming the average velocity of the round is about 20% less than the muzzle velocity, and timing between it firing(camera shaking slightly) and it hitting, it is about 1,680m away. And yes the RPG has a range of about 980m,(they are also INCREDIBLY innaccurate).
So yeah the chopper was never in any danger and if they had paid attention in combat training they would have known it.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Foodpimp Another thing...the camera was apparently close enough to the target to recieve almost immediate debris material making contact with the plexiglass lens guard when the vehicle was hit.
The Apache camera? No ****ing way lol.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 08:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing
Look at this "insurgent" (graphic and disturbing, so be warned)
I think that is the most disgusting and blatant example of their disregard for innocent lives(same video)
Now that is a direct violation of the rules of engagement.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 20:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Marko Riva
In this specific case it's very easy to mistake the 2 journalists for carrying weapons, especially the one behind the wall where you can only see the long lense of his camera, that just looks like an RPG,
Even if it was an RPG, it was of no threat to anyone at that moment.
Originally by: Marko Riva
firing on the small bus is not really justifyable and the remarks here and there are very out of place.
Why aren't you condemning it in the strongest possible wording?
Originally by: Marko Riva To the people who state "but they weren't any threat to the Apache", no ****. The POINT of having the apache patrol there is so it can take care, from great distance and safety, of problems, weapons and enemy soldiers so they can't kill fellow soldiers.
The rules of engagement for the Apache crew state that unless they receive a direct order, they are not clear to engage enemy personnel unless they pose an active threat to tactical assets. In this case, the gunner made up a few guns, made it sound tricky to whoever was on the other end of the line, and thus illegally received permission to fire.
Originally by: Marko Riva
If I'd be in his spot and I'd honestly believe these were enemy soldiers then you can bet your ass I'm going to fire on them. Every weapon, RPG or enemy soldier that's taken out of the equation might just save someone from the miltary having to call some kid's parents with bad news. But I would have acted quite differently in this case.
I'm very glad you're not involved with foreign policy.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.07 07:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rouge Drone Some of those gentlemen were carrying assault rifles. Perhaps the journalists shouldn't have chosen such a disreputable group of associates if they had an aversion to being shot.
Show the weapons pls?
Originally by: Rouge Drone
One must also call into question why children were being brought into a war zone to help dispose of corpses. It's clear that bad parenting was to blame for their injuries, not the military.
Warzone? It's a city, there's bound to be some people around.
Originally by: Rouge Drone
All in all I feel that my freedom has been thoroughly protected and I'd like to thank the hard working men and women of our armed forces for their dedication and service.
troll
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Iraq is exactly the same way.
Don't want to die? Don't walk around in groups of people and then stack up at the corner of a building like you're going to engage a target (which is exactly what the people did in the video).
Land of the free, home of the brave? And the last bit is open for interpretation.
Many of you also assume that the people on the ground knew the Apache was there and that it had its sights trained on them. Judging by the distance (1km or more) they probably couldn't even hear the damn thing because they were, well, in a major ****ing city. They could see it, but I'm under the impression that seeing helicopters over Baghdad has been happening somewhat frequently in the past years. So..should Iraqis just not gather in groups of two or more and not carry any baquettes home from the bakery just because they have to be afraid of being torn apart by two kiddies with HE round cannon?
something is ****ed up
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.07 14:42:00 -
[18]
4chan has picked up with a number of ****ty memes but that's good because it won't easily be forgotten then
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.07 15:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jirai Grepher
The pilots acted correctly in my opinion, they didn't have the luxury of thinking and scrubbing a video like the people on that website did. When the life of possibly one of your friends is on the line, you would probably do the same thing in that situation.
Flame on.
I'll start, how is anyone's anything on the line?
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.07 15:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jirai Grepher
People walking around the street with what looks to be slinged weapons, one guy crouching and peering around a corner with what looks to be an rpg. You can hear on the comms there is a Mounted squad on the ground in that area.
The first two are assumptions and far from certain. The latter is untrue, you can hear ground forces asking the helo crew to walk them there later so they weren't nearby.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.07 21:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kephael The photographers had it coming, hanging out with armed insurgents can get you killed. You can see a few rifles and an RPG in the beginning of the video.
You make it sound like that somehow justifies anything that happened.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.07 22:00:00 -
[22]
I'm no expert on the subject but that could be a dozen things that look like an RPG, or an RPG.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.08 06:10:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 08/04/2010 06:15:39 It could be a baguette judging by that video. You peopleare trying to see things that aren;t there ><
Quote:
and the fact that press are supposed to be wearing something that identifies them as press, which those guys decided for whatever reason, not to wear it that day.
How would that be done exactly?
I'll just repeat what I said before: If they are so hell-bent on murdering anyone with a weapon, make a few low passes over south central.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.08 06:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kirex Except if you check the link lark posted (http://www.scribd.com/doc/2948763/Centcom-FOIA) You can read some terrible handwriting (page 35 and 36 seems easiest to read) and on page 38 you can see an AK lying on the ground as well as two RPGs, but they have most of it censored because the pictures are a little...messy. Page 41 shows what the reporter was taking a picture of when he was peeking behind the corner.
So with the introduction of the new information, do you still think the Apache was wrong to engage a group of military age males armed with 2 RPGs and an AK stacking up on a corner a few meters away from a Humvee?
Maybe.
But shooting up the van afterwards sure as hell wasn't.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.08 10:50:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 08/04/2010 10:54:49
Originally by: Sobach I think one of the major issue here is that some people seems to expect the military engaged in open conflict to somehow behave like their local police from back home while fighting a war.
They don't get paid to be rambo, they get paid to be there and help the locals reconstruct society. Especially pilots, carrying so much firepower over densely inhabited areas should be the most reluctant to use it.
Originally by: Sobach Even if they weren't there, the notion that we shouldn't fire until we're getting shot at in a war is utterly ridiculous.
Might want to check ROE on that.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.08 14:40:00 -
[26]
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36182383/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/#36182090
Quote: An investigation of the shooting found that the crew of the two Apache helicopters at the scene might have erroneously identified photographer's cameras as weapons, NBC News Pentagon correspondent Jim Miklaszewski reported.
According to U.S. officials, the pilots arrived to find a group of men approaching the area of a battle with what looked to be AK-47s slung over their shoulders and at least one rocket-propelled grenade.
The investigation later concluded that what was thought to be an RPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the camera looked like an AK-47.
Let's see what else they come up woth
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.08 15:33:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Thing is though, it was an RPG.
actually... it wasn't "The investigation later concluded that what was thought to be an RPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the camera looked like an AK-47."
So there was no-one taking aim with an RPG (claimed several times above by others)/ And where does it say that they did find an RPG in the end?
Nice cherry picking, it was referring to the guy at the corner of the building pointing his camera at the humvee, not the big long object in the gif posted in this thread that turned out to infact be an RPG.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.09 22:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sobach
Originally by: VanNostrum ...We have rules of engagement...
correct, and the pilots followed it, so what's your problem?
In case of the first group of men it was questionable, the van, a downright violation.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.10 09:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: adfadfadfawe Edited by: adfadfadfawe on 10/04/2010 02:06:39 Whoopsie:
http://gawker.com/5513068/the-full-version-of-the-wikileaks-video-is-missing-30-minutes-of-footage
I don't know how that changes anything besides making the crew look like less of warmongers and more like actual people. The statements made by them are what I would expect in combat, but that doesn't change anything about the video.
Originally by: Sobach
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Sobach
Originally by: VanNostrum ...We have rules of engagement...
correct, and the pilots followed it, so what's your problem?
In case of the first group of men it was questionable, the van, a downright violation.
I'd take the word/report of Centcom over a lol-flowchart
One official document speaking against what another official document says, so shall we for convenience assume that neither is right?
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.10 23:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: adfadfadfawe Edited by: adfadfadfawe on 10/04/2010 02:06:39 Whoopsie:
http://gawker.com/5513068/the-full-version-of-the-wikileaks-video-is-missing-30-minutes-of-footage
I don't know how that changes anything besides making the crew look like less of warmongers and more like actual people. The statements made by them are what I would expect in combat, but that doesn't change anything about the video.
You're spinning you wheels sok.
You're gonna have to explain that.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 00:23:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Machanara Edited by: Machanara on 11/04/2010 01:40:22 Edited by: Machanara on 11/04/2010 01:39:21 Edited by: Machanara on 11/04/2010 01:35:59 Edited by: Machanara on 11/04/2010 01:35:24 Edited by: Machanara on 11/04/2010 01:35:02 Well.....it basically boils down to one thing. Whether you like the war or hate the war doesn't matter in the least.
What matters is that IT IS WAR. And 99% of the people in this thread don't know a flying f*ck about what war really is and what its costs are because they have NEVER been a part of it.
In war....people die. good people. Bad people. Innocent people. Guilty people. Men. Women. Children. Dog. Cats. Gorillas. You name it.....it all ****ing dies in war.
And in those wars BAD calls are made.
But one thing is for sure. If you were NOT THERE then you need to shut your pie hole and keep your criticisms to yourself. You don't even TRY to armchair quarterback a ****ing war!! Or a battle. or a skirmish....unless you were involved in it and just happened to live though it to see the f**ked up nature of how human beings really are. ALL OF THEM!!
So I reiterate... If you were not there and don't know what the **** was going on at that very moment...you need to SHUT THE F*CK UP!!
Oh....and where is the outrage about the genocide from wars down in Africa and in the post- soviet republics? I don't hear any of you whiny *****es crying about the 100's of thousands murdered in THOSE WARS.... where are you screaming about all those dead people...all those MURDERED people?
......yea...thats what I thought Since America isn't involved with those...they don't count. Its a non-starter...
hurpaderp?
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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