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Cute Joe
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
... I would not doubt that those men in that apache probably felt like **** after they learned they killed civilians.
Don't blame the soldiers for doing what they are supposed to be doing. People should focus on the **** like Abu Ghraib, not this.
haha yeah you're right, listening to the whole vid i must say they didn't have "fun" and they are in no way trigger happy. yeah sure they feel bad now
and HUUUURDRUUURUR DERP A HERP I KILLED THE CHILDREN BECAUSE OF AN ORDER HURR I NO GUILTY NOW what kind of stupid excuse is that? you pulled the trigger
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Wuff Wuff
The Oliver Postgate Appreciation Club
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kitimortoa There was no way they would have known those were children in that van, you can't tell from the video, I'm sure you couldn't tell from the distance they were at either.
If you notice, there were some soldiers running those children to transport when they discovered them on the scene.
I'm not disagreeing with that at all, I had no idea at all that those children were at the window on first viewing, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying what thought process led the apache pilots to believe that the rescuers were insurgents and not just people seeing a wounded guy on a street and wanting to get him to medical care?
- Wuff Wuff
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:15:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Wuff Wuff
Originally by: Kitimortoa There was no way they would have known those were children in that van, you can't tell from the video, I'm sure you couldn't tell from the distance they were at either.
If you notice, there were some soldiers running those children to transport when they discovered them on the scene.
I'm not disagreeing with that at all, I had no idea at all that those children were at the window on first viewing, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying what thought process led the apache pilots to believe that the rescuers were insurgents and not just people seeing a wounded guy on a street and wanting to get him to medical care?
- Wuff Wuff
And what I'm saying, given the situation, what would make them think they're not insurgents? They just engaged what they believed to be the enemy, I'm sure they thought more were on their way to help their fallen comrades.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:16:00 -
[34]
It's kind of sad how we have gone from this to 'push buttan, see body parts fly'..
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:18:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
And what I'm saying, given the situation, what would make them think they're not insurgents? They just engaged what they believed to be the enemy, I'm sure they thought more were on their way to help their fallen comrades.
But, their was at no point a direct threat towards them, nor was there any other tactical asset at risk. There was no reason to shoot, even if they had been insurgents with weapons.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
UnicornGary
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kitimortoa And what I'm saying, given the situation, what would make them think they're not insurgents? They just engaged what they believed to be the enemy, I'm sure they thought more were on their way to help their fallen comrades.
It seemed to be a residential area, foot and vehicle traffic is to be expected. And it is to be expected that somebody might stop to help a heavily wounded human being. Not like they were in the middle of the desert and a minivan just came strolling by. Also, there is such thing as warning shots...
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Kitimortoa
And what I'm saying, given the situation, what would make them think they're not insurgents? They just engaged what they believed to be the enemy, I'm sure they thought more were on their way to help their fallen comrades.
But, their was at no point a direct threat towards them, nor was there any other tactical asset at risk. There was no reason to shoot, even if they had been insurgents with weapons.
Again, easy to make that assesment when not there and not engaged in the situation. The biggest problem with war right now not only is the "push button, watch parts fly, repeat" is the fact we are sending children to war. Half of the people serving in these conflicts are still children regardless if they're 18 or 21. These kids that we're sending off to kill each other are going to be broken for the rest of their lives when they come back.
I agree with your posted video above, if people had to look eachother in the eye before they killed eachother more, we *might* have less wars, but somehow I doubt it, man is a very destructive creature.
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:27:00 -
[38]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 05/04/2010 21:27:17 It's a law in iraq that you can carry an ak-47, that was the law under ******(seriously the ex-leader of iraq's name is censored?), and is also the law under the current regime.
Whatever can be garnered from this, apart from the fact that we have "bahgawd" posters on these forums, is that these troops were in the wrong.
I mean come on, watch at the end of the long video where they sink the hellfire missiles into that building, there are civilians walking along the god dam street and they are quite clearly killed or seriously wounded in that explosion. They were not carrying any weapons and were quite innocent and had no ill intentions. So are people now saying walking around outside in iraq = you are insurgent, heres the business end of my rifle.
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
UnicornGary
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:28:00 -
[39]
Last time I checked you had to be an Officer to fly an attack helicopter. So, 18 + 4yrs for a college degree/OCS + flight school. Those "kids" are far from 18/21.
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:30:00 -
[40]
Originally by: UnicornGary Last time I checked you had to be an Officer to fly an attack helicopter. So, 18 + 4yrs for a college degree/OCS + flight school. Those "kids" are far from 18/21.
O gee, i'm sorry, 22-25, not much of a difference there. Regardless these are kids that are being trained to kill, that's what's wrong with this picture.
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Wuff Wuff
The Oliver Postgate Appreciation Club
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:30:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kitimortoa And what I'm saying, given the situation, what would make them think they're not insurgents? They just engaged what they believed to be the enemy, I'm sure they thought more were on their way to help their fallen comrades.
I am of the opinion that it was their responsibility to be as close to sure as was practical that the rescuers were insurgents before opening fire again. As myself and others have mentioned, their attitude, edited or otherwise, suggested they were gung-ho and trigger-happy. But I can't say what I would do in the same situation, I've said my bit so I will bow out from here and agree to disagree.
- Wuffles
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:32:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Again, easy to make that assesment when not there and not engaged in the situation. The biggest problem with war right now not only is the "push button, watch parts fly, repeat" is the fact we are sending children to war. Half of the people serving in these conflicts are still children regardless if they're 18 or 21. These kids that we're sending off to kill each other are going to be broken for the rest of their lives when they come back.
I agree with your posted video above, if people had to look eachother in the eye before they killed eachother more, we *might* have less wars, but somehow I doubt it, man is a very destructive creature.
As far as I'm aware you have to be 18 minimum to start officer school, which lasts 4 years, and then 2 years or something like that of flight training, so the pilots would be a minimum of 24 years old, probably older considering many do not get send to a warzone after they have a few years of experience.
It's impossible to put yourself in that situation, but as I said before, if they were acting by the book, maybe the book needs changing.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:33:00 -
[43]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 05/04/2010 21:34:33
Quote: I'm assuming this is sarcasm because Warrant Officers pilot helicopters in the Army, and you don't need a college degree to become one. The gunners don't need them either.
That was pulled from the something awful forums(where it is enjoying being the most popular thread tonight ), so no you don't need a degree or to be an officer to pilot helicopters in the U.S army at least(warrant officers are not actual commisioned officers, they are the highest ranked non-commisioned soldiers though).
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 05/04/2010 21:34:33
Quote: I'm assuming this is sarcasm because Warrant Officers pilot helicopters in the Army, and you don't need a college degree to become one. The gunners don't need them either.
That was pulled from the something awful forums(where it is enjoying being the most popular thread tonight ), so no you don't need a degree or to be an officer to pilot helicopters in the U.S army at least(warrant officers are not actual commisioned officers, they are the highest ranked non-commisioned soldiers though).
Hm, here in Holland you do.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:36:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Again, easy to make that assesment when not there and not engaged in the situation. The biggest problem with war right now not only is the "push button, watch parts fly, repeat" is the fact we are sending children to war. Half of the people serving in these conflicts are still children regardless if they're 18 or 21. These kids that we're sending off to kill each other are going to be broken for the rest of their lives when they come back.
I agree with your posted video above, if people had to look eachother in the eye before they killed eachother more, we *might* have less wars, but somehow I doubt it, man is a very destructive creature.
As far as I'm aware you have to be 18 minimum to start officer school, which lasts 4 years, and then 2 years or something like that of flight training, so the pilots would be a minimum of 24 years old, probably older considering many do not get send to a warzone after they have a few years of experience.
It's impossible to put yourself in that situation, but as I said before, if they were acting by the book, maybe the book needs changing.
Rather than change the book, it needs to go farther than that. Something needs to be done about pre-emptively declaring war on a country that had done nothing to provoke it. This war has been so wrong, on so many different levels and so many lives have been lost on both sides for absolutely no reason at all, other than the greed of a few psychopathic individuals.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:38:00 -
[46]
That, I agree with.
And I'm gonna watch Pacific pt4 now and sleep, cya the morrow o/
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:40:00 -
[47]
This is a pretty good tl:dr of the video from the MSNBC(contains the graphic footage so be warned):
Click
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Wuff Wuff
The Oliver Postgate Appreciation Club
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:41:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Wuff Wuff I've said my bit so I will bow out from here and agree to disagree.
...apart from to say...
Originally by: Kitimortoa Rather than change the book, it needs to go farther than that. Something needs to be done about pre-emptively declaring war on a country that had done nothing to provoke it. This war has been so wrong, on so many different levels and so many lives have been lost on both sides for absolutely no reason at all, other than the greed of a few psychopathic individuals.
/signed
- Wuffles
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Thuranni
Eldjotnar
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:54:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Thuranni on 05/04/2010 21:55:03
Originally by: Kitimortoa Put yourself in the position of those guys in the apache, would you sit there and let them get away or possibly jump out and fire an rpg at them once they identified where you were? Would you want them driving around the corner and sitting there waiting for the troops to come look at the scene then opening fire on them?
It's really easy to sit back in your comfortable chair and say stupid crap like that without being in the situation where *you* or someone you know could possibly end up dead as well.
You missed the part where the gunner gleefully brags about his murdering, and where he begs the wounded man crawling on the street to pick up a weapon so he has justification to murder him.
He also lies to his superiors that there are "4-5 with AKs", when in fact there are 2 people carrying anything at all. There is no way he actually thought four people were carrying guns down there. This man is a rabid animal and should be put away for life.
There is no indication at all that these people were "insurgents". It's painfully obvious if you watch the video that none of them carry anything that even remotely looks like weapons.
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 22:22:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Thuranni
There is no indication at all that these people were "insurgents". It's painfully obvious if you watch the video that none of them carry anything that even remotely looks like weapons.
This is not true. I am not pro-war, in any shape or form, but I did give the soldiers the benefit of doubt when I watched it, and yes, those items they were carying could infact be mistaken for weapons from the distance they were at. Watching the video with a bias from the introduction of the video, I can see how someone could say they are absolutely not weapons, but in all honesty, I can say I probably would have mistaken them for weapons myself.
About the comments by some of the soldiers, do any of you have family or friends that have served in war? Do you think they're all nice and polite about the ****? No...well of course unless they're brits, in which case they'll walk up and politely ask someone if they can shoot them in the face before firing...(I'm joking, honestly :P) If you don't like the comments or the war then do something about it to keep us out of the next one.
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 22:29:00 -
[51]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 05/04/2010 22:34:54 Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 05/04/2010 22:29:31 Watch towards the end of the video where they fill the building full of hellfires.
There is clearly an unarmed innocent civilian walking down the street in front of the building and then he yells "You are clear. Fire!" showing absolute disregard for the civilian, then the missile slams into the building...then a second one with civilians starting to walk over and examine the wreck...then a third one with the soldiers giving each other a nice round pat on the back "Nice missile!" that they just took out some possible insurgents and clearly unarmed civilians.
Also is just their horrific reaction to the killing, i know that the banter can be used as a disconnect from what you are doing but they are just wanting to kill the guy, then when some other unarmed people show up they kill all of them , kill the wounded guy(getting their wish) and almost kill two kids(who will now grow up hating the foreigners who killed their father or family friends).
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 22:39:00 -
[52]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing
Also is just their horrific reaction to the killing, i know that the banter can be used as a disconnect from what you are doing but they are just wanting to kill the guy, then when some other unarmed people show up they kill all of them , kill the wounded guy(getting their wish) and almost kill two kids(who will now grow up hating the foreigners who killed their father or family friends).
Soldiers are trained to kill, they're not trained to play Hello Kitty. They're not trained to think about it, if you think about it you're going to get killed in that moment of hesitation while you're considering the ramification of what it is you're doing.
I can understand why they acted they way they did, and it sux that we're doing this sort of thing to our youth for no goddamned reason other than to take some other country's oil. No matter how those *******s that got us into this **** frame it up, it comes down to their greed = shattering of thousands upon thousands of lives and families in order to line their pockets.
Just try to put yourself in that position, honestly, don't try to filter it through your life as it is now, you'll start to understand what happens to a man when he's trained to kill, then sent to do the job.
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 22:47:00 -
[53]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 05/04/2010 22:47:15 Okay then that is fair enough, they are indoctrinated to think "he is the enemy, i shall smite him down, if i don't he will do it to me". But it is still pretty horrifying how they want someone who isnt actually posing a threat to start posing a threat so they just kill them like that.
But do you care to comment on my other point of them just filling a building full of hellfire missiles with civilians in plain sight yelling "You're clear", then boom, civilian dies along with the guys with guns. Then civilians walk over...boom...boom.
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.04.05 22:53:00 -
[54]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Okay then that is fair enough, they are indoctrinated to think "he is the enemy, i shall smite him down, if i don't he will do it to me".
But do you care to comment on my other point of them just filling a building full of hellfire missiles with civilians in plain sight yelling "You're clear", then boom, civilian dies along with the guys with guns. Then civilians walk over...boom...boom.
All I can really say is they were caught up in the moment.
This is a different world we live in now than when we used to fight wars. A uniform used to mean something, now a days you can't tell who the enemy is and who isn't. War will never be fought like it was in WWII or Korea, it's pretty much going to be the same Vietnam over, and over and over again, every single time we go to war. That's the reality of the day, and it probably will never change (except it's going to be more like a video game, which is a mistake imo).
I find **** like Abu Ghraib and other acts like the entire family that was ****d and murdered by some soldiers who were out of their freaking minds more offensive than something like this. This is something that happens every day, in every war that's being waged across the globe. You just don't hear about every single instance like this.
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 22:57:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Okay then that is fair enough, they are indoctrinated to think "he is the enemy, i shall smite him down, if i don't he will do it to me".
But do you care to comment on my other point of them just filling a building full of hellfire missiles with civilians in plain sight yelling "You're clear", then boom, civilian dies along with the guys with guns. Then civilians walk over...boom...boom.
All I can really say is they were caught up in the moment.
I'm sorry but thats just unacceptable, a god dam unarmed man is in view and they fire. You do not get "caught up" in the moment like that, soldiers have it hammered into their skulls to not shoot unless it is a certified enemy and to minimalise civilian casualties. What you are basicly saying is people get caught up in the moment and it is fine to fire willy nilly into a inhabitated area filled with innocent civilians, and kill a few, as long as you kill the mean bad guys, who cares if a couple innocents get blown to a pink mist in the process.
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.04.06 02:43:00 -
[56]
Check out the contemporary press report. It's a news article describing the event from July 13, 2007, the day after the killings occurred.
Note the differences.
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Larkonis Trassler
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.04.06 03:31:00 -
[57]
IBTL. I don't know what vid you guys were watching but I'm pretty sure I saw at least 3 long barrelled weapons being brandished by guys apart from the camera crew. When the fellow kneels down at the corner of the building it looks like he could be setting up to take a shot (his long lensed camera looks rather like an RPG-22 to me TBQH). From the radio chatter it sounds like there are ground units nearby, but not in the immeadiate vicinity. It's very easy to pass judgement sitting down, replaying the vid etc etc, but to me that very much looked like a group of armed men setting up for an ambush of some description.
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist No. Larkonis |
Frank Corncob
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Posted - 2010.04.06 04:05:00 -
[58]
The pilots should be charged with MURDER for killing innocent civilians in a WAR ZONE. The Taliban/Al-Qaeda/Insurgents would NEVER EVER risk the life of an infidel innocent civilian to further their objectives against the infidels friendly liberators of the western world. The standing order to not fire until fired upon is fair and just and has saved thousands of lives as neither side will fire open each other, this leaves no room for suspicion of anyone for any reason.
I for one can only hope our superior military technology and nuclear arms superior morals will save us if WW3 breaks out and we might be forced to attack civilian infrastructure to weaken the enemies resolve ask for a ceasefire and when it is rejected ALL HAIL CHINA! OUR NEW AND SUPREME OVERLORDS.
As I toil away in a forced labor camp at least I can sleep soundly on the moral high ground.
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Foodpimp
Gallente Heaven's Harvesters Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.06 04:38:00 -
[59]
Hindsight being 20/20 eh?
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2010.04.06 04:48:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Soldiers are trained to kill, they're not trained to play Hello Kitty. They're not trained to think about it, if you think about it you're going to get killed in that moment of hesitation while you're considering the ramification of what it is you're doing...
These were not soldiers, these were swine in uniform, I hope they crash and burn. If they can't think sitting far removed from any actual combat, without threat to themselves how then will they be able to make a sound call in the middle of it? Unfit to serve. Stop defending them and realize the only reason you do so is that you need to think of the US as the good guys, that is not the real world.
Delenda est achura. |
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