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Foodpimp
Gallente Heaven's Harvesters Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.06 04:55:00 -
[61]
Crash and burn huh...
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.04.06 05:58:00 -
[62]
How old were these so called Apache pilots? They sound like kids high on drugs. I guess that pretty much reflects the current state of American military training.
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Foodpimp
Gallente Heaven's Harvesters Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.06 06:11:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Sturmwolke How old were these so called Apache pilots? They sound like kids high on drugs. I guess that pretty much reflects the current state of American military training.
I guess it does. Great contribution.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:24:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler IBTL. I don't know what vid you guys were watching but I'm pretty sure I saw at least 3 long barrelled weapons being brandished by guys apart from the camera crew. When the fellow kneels down at the corner of the building it looks like he could be setting up to take a shot (his long lensed camera looks rather like an RPG-22 to me TBQH). From the radio chatter it sounds like there are ground units nearby, but not in the immeadiate vicinity. It's very easy to pass judgement sitting down, replaying the vid etc etc, but to me that very much looked like a group of armed men setting up for an ambush of some description.
The muzzle velocity of the M203 chain gun is 800m/s. Judging by the delay between discharge and impact, the helicopter was around 1km away from the men which is not at all unreasonable given the performance window of the Apache. 1km is double the effective range of even the most advanced RPG's, and if the men on the ground had been carrying guided AA missiles it would have been obvious, because those are a lot larger than an RPG.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:34:00 -
[65]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 07:35:39 Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 07:35:04 Assuming the average velocity of the round is about 20% less than the muzzle velocity, and timing between it firing(camera shaking slightly) and it hitting, it is about 1,680m away. And yes the RPG has a range of about 980m,(they are also INCREDIBLY innaccurate).
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Foodpimp
Gallente Heaven's Harvesters Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:44:00 -
[66]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 07:35:39 Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 07:35:04 Assuming the average velocity of the round is about 20% less than the muzzle velocity, and timing between it firing(camera shaking slightly) and it hitting, it is about 1,680m away. And yes the RPG has a range of about 980m,(they are also INCREDIBLY innaccurate).
Or...oh lord...this is just crazy....the video and sound were not synced up....I know...lemme get my tinfoil hat.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:47:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 06/04/2010 07:47:28
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 07:35:39 Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 07:35:04 Assuming the average velocity of the round is about 20% less than the muzzle velocity, and timing between it firing(camera shaking slightly) and it hitting, it is about 1,680m away. And yes the RPG has a range of about 980m,(they are also INCREDIBLY innaccurate).
So yeah the chopper was never in any danger and if they had paid attention in combat training they would have known it.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Foodpimp
Gallente Heaven's Harvesters Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:57:00 -
[68]
Another thing...the camera was apparently close enough to the target to recieve almost immediate debris material making contact with the plexiglass lens guard when the vehicle was hit.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 07:58:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Foodpimp Another thing...the camera was apparently close enough to the target to recieve almost immediate debris material making contact with the plexiglass lens guard when the vehicle was hit.
The Apache camera? No ****ing way lol.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.06 08:01:00 -
[70]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 08:02:42 Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 06/04/2010 08:01:41 Look at this "insurgent" (graphic and disturbing, so be warned)
I think that is the most disgusting and blatant example of their disregard for innocent lives(same video)
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 08:06:00 -
[71]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing
Look at this "insurgent" (graphic and disturbing, so be warned)
I think that is the most disgusting and blatant example of their disregard for innocent lives(same video)
Now that is a direct violation of the rules of engagement.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Iva Posavec
Posavec Innovations Takhar Matari
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Posted - 2010.04.06 09:09:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Iva Posavec on 06/04/2010 09:09:14
Just watched the video (first one) and I am really shocked by it. I have seen hours of footage from battles on the ground to air attacks and seen many people die on these videos but this video is really something else. Eve out of the unnecessary killings I have seen this one really does look unwarranted.
The Apache gunner identified the photographer as armed which is ridiculous, I can see it isn't a gun even though I have never worked with firearms so surely someone who is in the forces could tell it was not an assault rifle. I got a glimpse of another guy and it looked like he was carrying a rifle or some sort but in a place like Iraq I doubt it is uncommon to see folks with weapons. When the Apache was flying out of direct sight of the men it looked like someone was crouching with something around the corner, yeah could be an RPG but it possibly being an RPG is surely not enough reason to open fire onto a group. They gave false info to their command over the radio, instead of saying "possibly armed" they were telling their command that the men were armed so obviously command is going to give the go ahead when being told theres 8 men with AK47's and RPG's.
The part when the guy was crawling was sickening and if I am to be honest I was hoping they were going to finish him off sooner than later. The van that came to collect the wounded should never have been engaged and this is not the first time a vehicle has been engaged while it tried to help innocent people. All the vans occupants were doing was getting the wounded guy, that could be seen on camera and there was absolutely no excuse to open fire onto it. To sum things up it was a complete **** up, I believe down to human error of the Apache crew and negligence on their part too.
Finally, the way the Apache crew are speaking on the radio does not surprise me one bit, calm and seemingly completely removed from the reality of what is going on i.e. the guy dying on the street, the two children injured from their own shots and the body that was driven over by the Hummer. I can somewhat understand this though as I think many people behave in this way when under great pressure and stress. Many soldiers will speak poorly or jokingly of those they fight because it's much easier than facing the reality that these people are just the same as them.
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Look at this "insurgent" (graphic and disturbing, so be warned)
I can't really comment on this clip as it's very short and doesn't give any details on why they are there conducting that attack, but on the basis of that clip alone it looks like a unnecessary kill which could have easily been prevented. 15 seconds delay and it seems the guy could have been alive and unharmed.
edit: Sorry for wall of text, didn't realize when I was typing.
Alliance Creation |
Colonel Evans
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Posted - 2010.04.06 10:12:00 -
[73]
Originally by: James Tritanius Check out the contemporary press report. It's a news article describing the event from July 13, 2007, the day after the killings occurred.
Note the differences.
This was equally as disturbing as the video itself.
"During the fighting, an Apache helicopter fired bursts of 30mm rounds toward several people who had been directing machine-gun fire and rocket-propelled grenades at U.S. soldiers. The helicopter also fired on a silver Toyota minivan in the area as several people approached the vehicle, soldiers said."
Blatant lies by the soldiers involved. That's just ridiculous, you can clearly see on the video that not only were the items in question being carried by the individuals nearly un-identifiable as weapons, but they definitely WEREN'T "directing fire" at U.S Soldiers.
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Cute Joe
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Posted - 2010.04.06 10:25:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Colonel Evans
...stuff...
nothing new, americans tend to lie a lot when engaging random targets. guess most of the people they murdered so far have been bystanders, smoke them and tell the world "HERP A DERP WE KILLED X INSURGENTS DURRR"
you people know what the "Nuremberg Trials"? no? well it's what you americans should be treated with, because you are war criminals
oh noes, guess i'm gonna get "lit up" now by you cowboys and everyone walking around in a radius of 1000 feet
ah well, bite me. i'm not a friend of yours and never will be
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Colonel Evans
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Posted - 2010.04.06 10:33:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Cute Joe
Originally by: Colonel Evans
...stuff...
nothing new, americans tend to lie a lot when engaging random targets. guess most of the people they murdered so far have been bystanders, smoke them and tell the world "HERP A DERP WE KILLED X INSURGENTS DURRR"
you people know what the "Nuremberg Trials"? no? well it's what you americans should be treated with, because you are war criminals
oh noes, guess i'm gonna get "lit up" now by you cowboys and everyone walking around in a radius of 1000 feet
ah well, bite me. i'm not a friend of yours and never will be
I live in Amsterdam... And yes I know what the Nuremburg Trials were.
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Jago Kain
Amarr Ramm's RDI Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2010.04.06 10:49:00 -
[76]
Murder is murder surely?
The apache crews lied to command to get permission to engage, innocent folk died and then the military lied again to cover it up.
At least someone within the military had enough of a conscience to leak the vid so that the world knows for sure what happened.
It occurs to me (and I'm sure that I ain't alone in this) that this might not be the only incident of it's type to have taken place since the invasion. How many more "insurgents" have been gunned down by PS3 addicted apache crews so they could brag about it on the radio and back at camp afterwards.
Actual, real people died here; not some collection of pixels that'll respawn so you can gank it again with the bravery of being out of range... someone needs to be held accountable for their actions.
___________________________________________________ The game will never be over, because we're keeping the meme alive. |
Cute Joe
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Posted - 2010.04.06 10:58:00 -
[77]
@Colonel Evans, wasn't going towards you mate =) sry for the confusion
that **** happens on a regular basis, or do you really think that every time cnn and fox tell you "heroic american heroes eliminated XX insurgents" that they WERE insurgents? lol no, this vid is just one of many
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.04.06 11:25:00 -
[78]
The co-founder of wikileaks said on MSNBC that he has a lot more classified videos and that they will be releasing them soon, so this will not be the last we see of this.
Although at this point i think US high command are going to be hunting for the people who released these classified videos, even though they made the right call in doing so.
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.06 11:29:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Marko Riva on 06/04/2010 11:37:16 It's very easy to critisize soldiers in a war, especially with 20/20 hindsight. We train those people to go to war for us and then we gasp at the fact that they are conditioned so much that it desensitizes them (the ones who can't somehow create a distance from it and can't stop seeing the "enemy" as fellow people probably won't last very long). If you're against a war (which I am in his case) blame the politicians, NOT the soldiers.
In this specific case it's very easy to mistake the 2 journalists for carrying weapons, especially the one behind the wall where you can only see the long lense of his camera, that just looks like an RPG, BECAUSE he couldn't see the (non-existant) back part. Having said that, his "there's 4-5 AK47's" is total bull**** and the "please pick up a weapon" is no good, firing on the small bus is not really justifyable and the remarks here and there are very out of place.
Still, I don't see any purposefully sadistic/wrong behaviour. What I DO see is a kid (in essence) who is conditioned to play war games through a small monitor, is asked to patrol the area and take care of any "bad guys" so they can't kill/harm fellow US soldiers.
War sucks, and it may sound dumb but **** happens. Don't blame the soldier (unless they're responsible for out of whack atrocities, which isn't the case here, not really). But this gunner is unfit to do his job, mostly because he is unable to accurately asess a situation. Should he be brought to trial over this? I personally don't feel the need in this case but I can understand that others might want his actions scrutinized by a hearing.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
Gneeznow
Minmatar Ship spinners inc
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Posted - 2010.04.06 14:34:00 -
[80]
Kill the innocent, promote freedom, feels good man
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Saxton Hale
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Posted - 2010.04.06 15:27:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Saxton Hale on 06/04/2010 15:27:06 I believe it's legal for civilians in Iraq to own and carry AK-47s. Even if they were armed that doesn't make them insurgents.
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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.06 15:37:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Kitimortoa
aside from some stupid snide remarks made by some of those guys on the audio, they were doing what they percieved at the time to be the right actions to take.
There is truth in what you say; namely that they did what they believed was right.
Unfortunately that does not mean that it *is* right, no matter how earnest the belief.
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Saxton Hale
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Posted - 2010.04.06 19:19:00 -
[83]
But why would they think that? Were they blind? There was a large group of guys acting completely chill, relaxed and nonchalant, a couple of guys out of maybe a dozen hold (and swing!) indistinct objects which with some imagination could look like weapons, but their body language very much indicated against them being a blobby pirate gatecamp waiting for prey.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.06 20:08:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Marko Riva
In this specific case it's very easy to mistake the 2 journalists for carrying weapons, especially the one behind the wall where you can only see the long lense of his camera, that just looks like an RPG,
Even if it was an RPG, it was of no threat to anyone at that moment.
Originally by: Marko Riva
firing on the small bus is not really justifyable and the remarks here and there are very out of place.
Why aren't you condemning it in the strongest possible wording?
Originally by: Marko Riva To the people who state "but they weren't any threat to the Apache", no ****. The POINT of having the apache patrol there is so it can take care, from great distance and safety, of problems, weapons and enemy soldiers so they can't kill fellow soldiers.
The rules of engagement for the Apache crew state that unless they receive a direct order, they are not clear to engage enemy personnel unless they pose an active threat to tactical assets. In this case, the gunner made up a few guns, made it sound tricky to whoever was on the other end of the line, and thus illegally received permission to fire.
Originally by: Marko Riva
If I'd be in his spot and I'd honestly believe these were enemy soldiers then you can bet your ass I'm going to fire on them. Every weapon, RPG or enemy soldier that's taken out of the equation might just save someone from the miltary having to call some kid's parents with bad news. But I would have acted quite differently in this case.
I'm very glad you're not involved with foreign policy.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
CharmingButIrrational
Roswell Project Victimz
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Posted - 2010.04.06 20:20:00 -
[85]
"C'mon fire!"
"Oops I'm sorry what was going on?"
"God damn it Kyle"
"All right, hahaha. I hit 'em..."
"Yeah... we got one guy crawling around down here... but, uh, you know... we got, we definitely got something."
"Oh, yeah, look at those dead bastards."
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Larkonis Trassler
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.04.07 00:15:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Even if it was an RPG, it was of no threat to anyone at that moment.
The helicopters were sent out to assist a ground callsign which had been taking fire and failed to locate the enemy hence the call for support. True, the fellow wasn't an immeadiate threat but to me it looked like they could have been setting up for an ambush. What reason would the fellow have for carrying an RPG about anyway? It certainly shows some hostile intent as last time I checked it's not the sort of thing you use for celebratory gunfire at a wedding. What would you have done? Sent a ground callsign into a possible ambush? Fired a warning shot to 'disperse' them only for them to reform at a later time and have another go?
Quote:
The rules of engagement for the Apache crew state that unless they receive a direct order, they are not clear to engage enemy personnel unless they pose an active threat to tactical assets. In this case, the gunner made up a few guns, made it sound tricky to whoever was on the other end of the line, and thus illegally received permission to fire.
AH pilot in Baghdad in mid '07? If not please don't even attempt to comment on ROE. Also, aside from the cameraman I could clearly identify at least 3 long barreled weapons. He certainly didn't 'make up' a few guns or make it sound tricky to the Ops Room. I'll admit that when he asks for clearance to shoot the minivan he's twisting the truth quite a bit and I find that act extremely disturbing, but, it was probably still within the scope of HIS ROE (from what I understand at that time US forces were under pretty lax ROE given the environment and the threat) and you have no idea if that vehicle or one of it's description had been involved in an incident earlier or flagged as suspect in his threat brief (although given the fact that people in Iraq generally drive one of about five different models/colours of vehicles that's a pretty tenuous link ). I personally found that particular act pretty unjustifiable.
Quote:
I'm very glad you're not involved with foreign policy.
I do hope you don't pass selection to become an AH pilot and end up flying top cover for someone in a conflict zone.
Nobody joins the military 'to kill people' and those that do usually end up washing out in training or having their attitudes re adjusted.
What I heard in the voice recording was stress mixed with adrenaline. It's a coping mechanism. When the fellow makes the remark along the lines of 'Well, they shouldn't have bought kids into a warzone' I heard someone bricking it because he'd just brassed up two children and makes some flippant remarks in an effort to calm his nerves.
Villifying the entire US military based on this and a couple of other isolated incidents is reactionist and really quite silly. Mistakes and overkill like this are commited by everyone in every conflict. For all the smart gizmos at an Army's disposal one still relies on men to do most of the decision making. People make mistakes, people get over stressed and the signs aren't recognized before they become an issue, personally even if what comes out is only a fraction of the mistakes and over reactions made given the stresses and realities of modern conflicts I'm surprised at how infrequent events like this happen. I can think of several incidents where Brits, Danes, Germans etc have made quite serious errors and they've not been reported nearly as heavily or viewed with as much spite by the 'internet community' because it's not cool to hate them.
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist No. Larkonis |
Professional Retard
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Posted - 2010.04.07 00:15:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Professional ****** on 07/04/2010 00:16:48 So....what if they did have weapons and they randomly started shooting people and random vehicles/buildings, shoot first ask questions later.
Thats how h1tler did it, thats how russian did it and so far things have worked out just fine.
(omg it filters h1itler lol)
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Jerreye
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Posted - 2010.04.07 00:21:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Kitimortoa I'm sorry, but the military's assesment of the situation is probably right on. It's a shame it happened but it appears that the people manning that apache were engaging what they thought to be insurgents. It does look like they were carying weapons on the footage. Knowing what we know before watching the footage would make one see it differently, but if you were in that apache and saw what they saw on that video, you would have probably made the same assesment. It's unfortunate, but it does appear that their actions were within reason.
Yes. It is unfortunate, and their actions could possibly have been within reason. I do not have the military expertise to comment on what should and should not have been done in that situation.
It's when the US Military releases a statement saying Iraqi insurgents were responsible that things go **** up. If they lie about this... "misunderstanding" you can't tell me they wouldn't lie about more substantial "accidents". This is but one of many exposed cover-ups that bring to light the US military's corruption.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.04.07 02:13:00 -
[89]
Edited by: James Tritanius on 07/04/2010 02:13:52
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Originally by: Sokratesz
I'm very glad you're not involved with foreign policy.
I do hope you don't pass selection to become an AH pilot and end up flying top cover for someone in a conflict zone.
So, by your own admission, any AH pilot who wouldn't mow the crowd down and commit those killings is an incompetent pilot and therefore should not be in service, correct?
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.04.07 02:21:00 -
[90]
A friend of mine used to hang out with a bunch of guys at 3am around a bunch of bars in the neighborhood and he'd always complain that the cops would harass him and pull him over and search him etc., even though he didn't do anything.
He insisted that it was the cops' fault and that they were being unfair to him. I told him to stop hanging around bars at 3am in the morning and cops wouldn't even be aware of his existence and he would stop getting harassed.
Iraq is exactly the same way.
Don't want to die? Don't walk around in groups of people and then stack up at the corner of a building like you're going to engage a target (which is exactly what the people did in the video).
Don't run around in an active American AO and you won't get lit up. Simple as that. For some reason Iraqis don't seem to understand that, hence you have women and children running around in the middle of a firefight like idiots. It doesn't sink in that Americans will kill anything and everything within sight that isn't them if given a chance.
The Iraquis do the same thing when given half a chance. And the Chinese, and the Russians, and the UK, and and and... It's not restricted to Americans. -
Originally by: Bellum Eternus That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
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