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Zephna	Posted - 2010.04.06 03:28:00 - [1] Edited by: Zephna on 06/04/2010 03:32:59 ive just recently got the skills up for both to a point i like and i prefer to solo everything whether it be wh space, lvl 4s, or pvp just wanting to see some builds and opinions on which is better for what ps i know its prob a bad idea to solo pvp in either being how costly they are ill prob stick to my cane
Last Wolf Rage For Order	Posted - 2010.04.06 03:51:00 - [2] Mach. Its as agile as most cruisers, but can fit a decent shield buffer tank and 3x gyro/3x TE and lob barrage 100km out and still do about 400 dps. Oh no you don't! Incoming witty reply, ETA: 300 seconds!
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.06 04:29:00 - [3] Depending on how you cut it, the Mach is either 110% or 90% as good as the Vargur at PVE (depending on if you factor loot and salvage in the isk/hour equation), and some order of magnitude better at PVP. If you want a one-size-fits-all solution, the Mach is your best and only choice.
Zephna	Posted - 2010.04.06 04:56:00 - [4] Originally by: Seriously Bored Depending on how you cut it, the Mach is either 110% or 90% as good as the Vargur at PVE (depending on if you factor loot and salvage in the isk/hour equation) i spose i should say that i do like to loot at least the bs wrecks hows the mach hold up in w.h. space?
drake duka Minmatar D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.06 06:12:00 - [5] I would say vargur is better for PvE no questions asked as it has a tracking/shield boost bonus as well as tractor beam bonus. Agility doesn't matter much in PvE, but if you want to do both definitely mach great PvP ship. It is very agile and has best gun dps of any minnie BS (7x guns with 2 damage bonus).
PabloEscobarII	Posted - 2010.04.06 13:43:00 - [6] I armor tank my mach, does that make me the devil?
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.06 13:55:00 - [7] Originally by: PabloEscobarII I armor tank my mach, does that make me the devil? Can the Devil fit 3 Gyros and 3 TE's in the lows? -- "If itÆs true that our species is alone in the universe, then IÆd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little" George Carlin
PabloEscobarII	Posted - 2010.04.06 14:38:00 - [8] Originally by: Drek Grapper Originally by: PabloEscobarII I armor tank my mach, does that make me the devil? Can the Devil fit 3 Gyros and 3 TE's in the lows? The devil runs faction 1400's with 2 Tracking computers alternating between tracking script and optimal range script. I think the TE would be used if i use 800's. Since the 1400's uses very little ammo, I can use faction ammo and the dps is probably close to 800's and maybe the cost too.
Kritinana Minmatar The New Mexican Connection	Posted - 2010.04.06 14:47:00 - [9] Originally by: PabloEscobarII I armor tank my mach, does that make me the devil? ;) so do I. Get a slave set & have "armor" focused logi/ldrshp-alt's & it's kind of hard not to. I understand why people tend to shield it though, it's rather obvious. I'm just too heavily invested in armor atm. to switch. Originally by: Drek Grapper Originally by: PabloEscobarII I armor tank my mach, does that make me the devil? Can the Devil fit 3 Gyros and 3 TE's in the lows? All you end up doing is replacing those TE's in the lows with 2 or 3 TC's in the mids......which are better anyway. Add an onieros alt w/ links and you pretty much just melt **** at any range that matters.
PabloEscobarII	Posted - 2010.04.06 15:06:00 - [10] [Machariel, l] 7x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery (Republic Fleet EMP L) Large Remote Armor Repair System II 3x Cap Recharger II 2x Optical Tracking Computer I (Tracking Speed) 3x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Armor Kinetic Hardener II 2x Armor Thermic Hardener II Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I 5x Hammerhead II 5x Hobgoblin II This is what I've been using. I haven't commited on the last rig yet since I'm not sure this wont change. Everythign I kill is from 30-39km. This is in range to my alts marauder. 1400's seemed like the way to go. When I can finally use Tech II 800's, I'll try those.

Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.06 15:11:00 - [11] Originally by: PabloEscobarII I armor tank my mach, does that make me the devil? Not at all! The fact that you're Pablo Escobar makes you the devil. Armor tanking the Mach is hardly a sin, especially if you're using artillery, and even better in PVE. Shield tanking the Mach just leverages the speed and agility more, but if you don't have to GTFO, like in all of PVE, it isn't so necessary. The great thing about the Mach is that there are some five or six viable ways to fly it, and all of them are excellent.
Ernesto DaSilva	Posted - 2010.04.06 15:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Kritinana All you end up doing is replacing those TE's in the lows with 2 or 3 TC's in the mids......which are better anyway. don't think so. 3 TC with optimal scripts give same optimal/falloff bonus like 3 TE but completely lack a tracking bonus then.
Kritinana Minmatar The New Mexican Connection	Posted - 2010.04.06 15:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Ernesto DaSilva Originally by: Kritinana All you end up doing is replacing those TE's in the lows with 2 or 3 TC's in the mids......which are better anyway. don't think so. 3 TC with optimal scripts give same optimal/falloff bonus like 3 TE but completely lack a tracking bonus then. And you can swap &/or remove scripts whenever you like depending on what your current circumstances are. The tracking doesn't much matter when thing are out at 50-70km. That said, forgive me if the 'stat' are pretty much exactly the same, I didn't pay much attention to the te's my last go b/c I knew I wouldn't be using them anyway. But my point was, losing a few lows to armor tanking isn't a big deal when you get all your mids. It's still just as viable a setup.
PabloEscobarII	Posted - 2010.04.06 16:17:00 - [14] Edited by: PabloEscobarII on 06/04/2010 16:18:53 Anyone have any suggestions on what to fit in that last rig slot of the fit I posted?. I was going to stay away from armor rig because it will slow the ship down some and I may try shield tanking later. Any out of the box suggestions would be appreciated.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.04.06 19:42:00 - [15] Originally by: PabloEscobarII The devil runs faction 1400's with 2 Tracking computers alternating between tracking script and optimal range script. FYI, two unscripted TC's give you better boosts to both tracking and optimal than one of each script. -- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.06 19:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Guillame Herschel FYI, two unscripted TC's give you better boosts to both tracking and optimal than one of each script. That's true, but I think he means he's using two of the same script, which one depending on the situation. (I do something similar on my Vargur when I use 2x TCs for a mission.) TEs have the advantage of giving you great range and a bit o' tracking at the same time, but if you need a monster amount of tracking because something got uncomfortably close, there really isn't anything like a TC.
PabloEscobarII	Posted - 2010.04.06 22:43:00 - [17] Correct, I use either 1 script or the other, never different scripts.
Zephna	Posted - 2010.04.07 15:57:00 - [18] Edited by: Zephna on 07/04/2010 16:02:19 Edited by: Zephna on 07/04/2010 15:59:29 What mid slot builds do you guys recommend for each ship? (I'll be going the route with TE.II's and gyro.II's for mach. not armor.)
Ernesto DaSilva	Posted - 2010.04.07 16:09:00 - [19] Edited by: Ernesto DaSilva on 07/04/2010 16:10:04 Originally by: Zephna What mid slot builds do you guys recommend for each ship? (I'll be going the route with TE.II's and gyro.II's for mach. not armor.) my Mach mid slots (don't fly a Varg yet): 3x Hardener (for me mostly 1x CN Invul + 2x specific) 1x Pith B XL SB (cheaper than a Gist one and more than sufficient 99% of the time) 1x AB or TC, up to taste (or Cap Booster if you don't have cap rigs)
Mutant Caldari Caldari Psykotic Meat Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.04.07 16:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Zephna Edited by: Zephna on 07/04/2010 16:02:19 Edited by: Zephna on 07/04/2010 15:59:29 What mid slot builds do you guys recommend for each ship? (I'll be going the route with TE.II's and gyro.II's for mach. not armor.) [Machariel, New Setup 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Domination Nanofiber Structure Domination Nanofiber Structure Damage Control II Gist X-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive Domination Warp Disruptor Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field True Sansha Heavy Energy Neutralizer 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Large Polycarbon Engine Housing II Large Polycarbon Engine Housing I Large Auxiliary Thrusters I Ogre II x3 Hammerhead II x2 Warrior II x6 If you are gonna have a pirate BS then you might as well pimp it. Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it? http://www.wi-alliance.com/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=32678 http://roadkill.igs-corp.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=32678

Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.07 17:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Mutant Caldari [Machariel, New Setup 1] I think he was still referring to PVE at this point, but I could be wrong. My personal preference would be to fly two T2-fit Mach's instead of spending a bil fitting one, but that's just me. As for a PVE fit Vargur, I've been having success with this: [Vargur, A better realistic Vargur. T2 Tank. Dominion Ready.] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Computer II Medium Capacitor Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Explosion Dampening Field II X-Large Shield Booster II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II Small Tractor Beam I Salvager II Salvager II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Burst Aerator II The inability to switch a mid out for an AB is a bit of a pain in the butt, but only really hurts on the first room of World's Collide, Recon 3, and when chasing down rats that orbit at <40KM (but you should be plowing through Angels mostly anyway).
Dimitrios Ypsilanti	Posted - 2010.04.07 18:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Mutant Caldari [Machariel, New Setup 1] [Vargur, A better realistic Vargur. T2 Tank. Dominion Ready.] Nearly identical to mine. I guess that's one of the beauties of the Vargur: There are only so many logical fits. [Vargur, Lazy] 2x Tracking Enhancer II 2x Gyrostabilizer II 1x Damage Control II 1x 100MN AB II 2x Invulnerability Field II 2x Shield Boost Amp II 1x X-Large Shield Booster II 4x 800mm Repeating Artillery II 2x Small Tractor Beam I 1x Salvager I 1x Large Projectile Ambit Extension I 1x CCC 5x Hammerhead II 5x Hobgoblin II With Barrage the falloff goes to just over 100km (locks out to about 93km). 1 volley will take out micro warpdriving frigs at that range. 3 volleys will take out most of the cruisers. 4 for the battle cruisers. I've run all level 4s with it (save Enemies Abound). It's taken the AE bonus room (just takes a bit of concentration). In almost all cases you just turn on the AB, head away from the pain and blast everything at your convenience. I think the main advantage of the Mach is that it performs equally well in PvE and PvP. The lock time and strange fitting limitations will keep the Vargur out of most PvP scenarios.
Zephna	Posted - 2010.04.07 22:31:00 - [23] Edited by: Zephna on 07/04/2010 22:32:02 Thanks guys, you have been an amazing help! Im going to get the varg right now for pve and that should cut my mission times way down to save for a mach, which ill prob use for pvp. I really want to get both ships and this seams to be the most efficient route to do so. feel free to post more build ideas if you want :)
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.07 23:10:00 - [24] Edited by: Drek Grapper on 07/04/2010 23:13:38 Edited by: Drek Grapper on 07/04/2010 23:12:13 I started out using a Caldari Navy XLB and Med T2 Cap booster on this ship but have now swapped them out for a Deadspace Booster and T2 Boost Amp. Cap boosters take up too much space and its a hassle to micro manage it all... [Vargur, T2AC D-Space Booster] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Gist B-Type Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Pith B-Type Explosion Dampening Field Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Drones etc... LG Crystals and 3% Damage implants in use. 464/815 Tank v Angels cap lasts 6m 22s....Falloff as fitted is 71KM (3% falloff implant) 924DPS from the guns. Swap out a TC for a Hardener for more tank or a Gyro/TE for more Tracking/Falloff etc...i don't like to use less than 2 x TC in the mids and 4 Damage Mods. I thinks it's the best all round compromise between tank and gank. The 4th RF Gyro is not worth the ISK tbh. I love this thing....i am considering bying a Mach to muck about in though. 1000 DPS sounds to good to pass up. -- "If itÆs true that our species is alone in the universe, then IÆd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little" George Carlin
Myrkala Minmatar Interstellar Empire	Posted - 2010.04.08 03:56:00 - [25] One good fit for the Vargs mids is: 1x XL-SB 1x Pithi C/B-type Small Booster 2x Invuln 1x 100mn RF AB With a DC2 in the lows you can run the small booster with AB going almost forever* and tank about 300 dps which is enough for 80% of the incoming damage in L4s, when you're taking that initial big dps just burst the XL when you are at about 35% shields until your 400-1000 DPS has thinned out the incoming DPS enough so you can start focusing on tractoring/salvaging. *(no cap mods, if you find you are running out of cap try plugging in some cheap 2%/4% cap recharge/amount implants.) - Thanks CCP, I knew you had it in you! <3 Long live Naglfar!
Dimitrios Ypsilanti	Posted - 2010.04.08 04:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Zephna Im going to get the varg... Make sure you can fit it. I've got elite core and elite fitting skills and for the fit I posted I've got an extra 0.25 CPU left over. Not much power grid either. My recommendation would be to buy one on Sisi and play with it there. Make sure it does what you want (it will). But also make sure you can fit it.
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.04.08 05:04:00 - [27] Mach really nice in that it can shield or armor tank very well.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.04.08 07:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti Originally by: Zephna Im going to get the varg... Make sure you can fit it. I've got elite core and elite fitting skills and for the fit I posted I've got an extra 0.25 CPU left over. Not much power grid either. My recommendation would be to buy one on Sisi and play with it there. Make sure it does what you want (it will). But also make sure you can fit it. Or he could use some kind of downloadable EVE Fitting Tool?
Zephna	Posted - 2010.04.08 13:49:00 - [29] Nah fittings not a problem unless its ewar stuff. Only thing i dont really care for.
Zephna	Posted - 2010.04.19 17:36:00 - [30] Kinda looking at settling with this: [Vargur, 1] RF Gyrostabilizer RF Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II RF Tracking Enhancer RF Tracking Enhancer Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II/mission specific II (not sure which is better) Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II RF 100mn Afterburner 800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF Fusion L Salvager II Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard II/CCC II (cant decide which is better gunna test both on sisi. looking to be cap stable) Large Projectile Ambit Extension II x5 Small drones II x5 Medium drones II Didnt really see the need for a 3rd gyro cause i do plenty of dmg already, and the 3rd TE frees up a mid slot while still alowing me 37-38km doesnt matter much tho cause im still chewing through ships at 60km+! Tank may be little weaker than with 3hards, but im not getting hit all that much moving at close to 500ms. Lemme know what you guys think :)

Alpha India	Posted - 2010.04.19 19:23:00 - [31] Way too many Amps! And 3 Gyros, is a grand increase. I personally have 4, and even though it's a miniscule increase, it goes a long way. I have two TC's in my mids. I also have a Large Ambit II and a EM rig. I don't even use a shield boost amp. Three hardeners are more than enough. I also use a large booster. Most missions for me (Angels and Mercs) I sit still and tractor while I kill, or float to the gates... and then park up and kill! Some special areas require more tank, and a few missions require an AB--just make the adjustments to fit those. You have plenty of room wearing 800s. You can really focus on destruction here. Don't be afraid! Respect the triggers, or don't! Kill scramblers, and be merry givin' it to everything else! You'll have time to spare.
Pachira Lotus	Posted - 2010.04.19 21:05:00 - [32] perma omni tank vargu - cap stable Only applys to high sp in cap related areas e.g skills at L5 including maruader L5 also helps if ya got HG crystal set high slots 4 T2 800 ac what ever choice of tractor/salvagers mid slots pith B type large shield booster - boosts 836hp per 3 seconds with skills at 5 & HG crys 2 cnr invul fields shield boost amplifier 2 cap rechargers low slots 3 RF gyros 1 tracking enhancer 1 damage control rigs 2 ccc shield resist with 2 cnr invul and DC going are between 72% to 83% iirc
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.19 22:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Zephna Didnt really see the need for a 3rd gyro cause i do plenty of dmg already, and the 3rd TE frees up a mid slot while still alowing me 37-38km doesnt matter much tho cause im still chewing through ships at 60km+! Tank may be little weaker than with 3hards, but im not getting hit all that much moving at close to 500ms. Lemme know what you guys think :) You're starting in the correct direction, but I think you're still a bit off. This ship has a massive tank as is, there is no reason to be sacrificing damage for more tank ability on it. When you're missioning, DPS = money. I'd just like to show you a quick screen grab comparing your fit to the cheap fit I posted on page 1: (The fit I used for the above image dropped the T1 ambit for a CCC I, so it can fit an AB instead of the Tracking Computer if necessary. But even with less range, it outdamages the more expensive fit at all practical mission ranges.)
Zephna Minmatar Phyrexian Factory	Posted - 2010.04.20 14:46:00 - [34] My current build is really close to your cheap fit cept SBA instead of TC and TE instead of Gyro. Just trying to find some ways to improve it. Also cap boosting is against my playstyle, I kinda like the glass cannon thing, thus the AB included in the build, i spose im not too worried about cap stability cause im good at burst shielding, and the extra damage would make it faster and make tank not matter as much. I just always look for the challenge of a functional, cap stable, ST. So lets try: [Vargur, fix?] RF Gyrostabilizer RF Gyrostabilizer RF Gyrostabilizer RF Tracking Enhancer RF Tracking Enhancer CN Invulnerability Field CN Invulnerability Field Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Tracking Computer II RF 100mn Afterburner 800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF Fusion L Salvager II Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Large Capacitor Controle Circuit II Large Projectile Ambit Extension II x5 Small drones II x5 Medium drones II You can try and try you cant be me.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:40:00 - [35] Looks much better Zephna. You can tank in whatever way fits your play-style the most, I just wanted to emphasize that DPS really should not be ignored with this ship. The most expendable thing is tanking modules, especially if you're using a deadspace booster. You're on your way to using this ship to its full potential.


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