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Vladimiru
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Posted - 2010.04.08 05:57:00 -
[1]
Our mining fleet gets raided by AF's from time to time in our null-sec, so I opened this new account about five days ago with the intention of fitting/training for a CHEAP/THROW-AWAY tier 1 destroyer. In fact I may encourage some of our other miners to do the same and dock them on our Orcas/Rorqs.
My miner buddies and I know the basics of PvP, but we're not exactly as PvP savvy as combat pilots (why would we be?). So after much reading about destroyer builds, this is the fitting that seems to work against AF's. The Gallente Catalyst also seems to be the best, so I made a Gallente character. And yes I'm aware that I'm currently training industry skills on this alt and I have industry attributes/implants, I'll do a remap once I get some good advice here. So here are the questions.
1) For countering Assault Frigates, are T1 Destroyers a good choice (consider the cost of t1 des vs t2 frig)?
2) Is it better to keep the Destroyers docked on the Rorq/Orca, or keep them outside? Keep in mind that our second characters will be logged on.
3) Would destroying them (or causing them to retreat) make them more likely to pursue other targets in future or would they be more likely to come back with larger ships within the next week at an unsuspecting time?
3) Is this CHEAP fitting good?
[Catalyst, Blasters] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Estimated Cost: 785,000 Damage Control II Estimated Cost: 625,000 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Estimated Cost: 200,000
1MN Afterburner II Estimated Cost: 840,000 Warp Scrambler II Estimated Cost: 910,000
Light Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S (eight of them) Estimated Cost: 4,320,000
Warrior II x 1 Estimated Cost 595,000
Total Estimated Cost: 8,275,000
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
As our mains our Industry, we can easily produce this fitting for ourselves for much less than 8,275,000. We could even provide cheap rigs for ourselves and keep it under 10 mil.
4) What other types of ships would you recommend to stop them from insta-popping our Retrievers (and Hulks and occasion). In general, would the costs of building a destroyer fleet be worth it, instead of replacing all of our Retrievers after 45-60 second AF raid? Keep this suggestion of extra ships as small as possible, we usually have less than 20 pilots available when we're NOT with a Rorq. The goal is to be self sufficient at stopping AF raids.
5) Should inexperienced PvP'ers even try this? Could we teach our miner pilots (on their alts) how to fly these small investments in a reasonable amount of time (time = ISK). I think it may be worth learning a little more PvP in general for our miners (and myself), so would that also be worth the investment?
6) The main problem is that our naval forces cannot respond fast enough to a 45-60 second raid on our Retrievers (by 20+ AF's), so these defenses are up to us. This usually isn't a problem if we have a Rorq among us, as we are provided with heavy escort. Are there any other suggestions about how to protect our Retrievers from AF raids?
7) What other ship class and fitting would you suggest for helping our light Escort to repel BC/BS raids. Our light escort usually consists of 1 Thanatos, 1 Battleship and 2 AF's. Our light escort also seems to be in a half-afk state during our mining (and they call us doofy?), thus when a force of 30+ Minmatar AF's arrive/uncloak, our escort about 10-15 seconds later (this is a LOT of time for these small raids, thank god our Than pilot is always aware "WAKE THE **** UP" he yells into vent.
8) Can we expect t1 Destroyers to maintain at least a 1-1 ratio with AF's? What tactics may they use to counter us (remember we have Than + BS + 4 AF's).
9) Our 2nd/3rd acc's are for hauling/research, so there's no time for full T2 skill training.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.04.08 06:25:00 -
[2]
If you are just trying to repel AF roaming gangs, just go for anti-frigate cruisers. A couple of Vexors will tear those frigates apart. (And MWD is essential)
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shyla stylez
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Posted - 2010.04.08 06:34:00 -
[3]
I don't have any experience flying destroyers at all - but there's a few points here that I think you need to address (props for being prepared to "have a go" btw).
"our naval forces cannot respond fast enough to a 45-60 second raid on our Retrievers"
This needs to change. Get better intel and always have a defence fleet (usually your ratters) in fleet ready to respond. Find out where they launch from, get alts in neighbouring systems to give you an "early warning system".
If possible, pick dead end systems to mine in and bubble the crap out of the inbound gate - gives you much longer to respond and will scare them off for future raids (especially if you have a few sniper BSs parked 150km off gate ready to instapop a few of them).
Always be aligned out - when they appear in local, pull drones, warp out. You should have 30 secs easy to do this so really it seems you're not paying close enough attention to local (you do have local showing all the time right??).
Oh and always remember to smack hard in local :-)
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Vladimiru
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Posted - 2010.04.08 06:53:00 -
[4]
I like some of these suggestions so far. I want to make sure my CEO reads this forum and recommends the changes to our Alliance Leader. |
Tanaka Reina
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Posted - 2010.04.08 07:18:00 -
[5]
I would recommend AML caracals, the range of the weapon and the damage with faction ammo against AF's is good.
+
the good bit, using missiles in pvp is quite easy to learn, its pretty much just point and shoot, and light missile skills are not that hard to learn.
fit point or web to all ships, mwd's to catch them, preferably scramble too if you want them to go boom.
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2010.04.08 08:46:00 -
[6]
Since you don't seem in the slightest interested in killing the people harassing you on a regular basis if it hurts your isk/h I suggest you just bubble the gates and cloak up/warp fleet to safe pos. Improved intel works aswell.
am characal's is otherwise an easy route to take
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Jim Tudeski
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Posted - 2010.04.08 10:52:00 -
[7]
....You guys are carebears and worried about cheap fittings. Oi. Thrasher is the best anti-frig destroyer also. Why not just use a Rorq with its mass drones/drone damage to kill them? I mean hell, have you seen the tank/DPS it can get? Lol. Also 0.0 mining bears not in Hulks/Covetors? Wtf?
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Veliria
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Posted - 2010.04.08 11:20:00 -
[8]
If pure defense is the issue, a drone cruiser (Arbitrator with tracking disruptors = AF targets with no DPS left) or an AML fit Caracal will do very nicely. Another option is ECM and just jam the AFs till they get fed up (while being shot at by drones and such).
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Lord Zekk
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.08 12:09:00 -
[9]
For the actual combat part:
To sum up what has already been said. Do not use dessies. Your pilots need to be good PVPers to make that work. I expect you will not be able to fully fit your ships. Insurance vs mod cost on a dessie isn't great.
Cheap ships to use: Vexor Rupture Arbitrator Assualt Missile Caracal Blackbird
Fit MWDs and Neuts. These ships can be fully t1 fit and be effective. A good cruiser pilot with a good fit can take 2 AFs at the same time, but for you guys think 2 cruisers to crush 3 Afs. Use drones, neuts, maybe some RR as well. Check battle clinic for fits and downgrade to t1.
You could even hire a merc corp, but it's better to learn how to take care of yourself.
Cost wise you can lose 5 T1 fit fully insured T1 cruisers for every T2 fit AF they throw at you.
You can quickly switch your mining barges out for PVP ships from the Orca/Rorq but this might not be feasible if you are spread out.
Keep your fleet aligned at half speed. You won't insta warp but you will warp quick enough and you will not drift away from the rock you are mining. Pick 2 celestials in opposite directions as far as possible so that you can switch alignment when you are getting too far away.
For the non-combat part.
Situational awareness is key at all times. I know this is hard while mining, but have guys on shifts. Make sure your wing commander/FC is a guy who can warp the fleet out. Have a scout posted on the other side of the gate, use a shift system so that this guy doesn't get bored.
Send your guys to the Agony PVP class if you can afford it. It will help them think like PVPers.
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We are recruiting. Visit us at http://www.22ndbrdu.com |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.04.08 13:17:00 -
[10]
AML Drakes obviously.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Hidden Snake
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.04.08 13:56:00 -
[11]
AML Drake (1x), AML Caracal (2-3X), 1-2 Hugin (if you just want to keep them off), 1-2 Rapier (if u want to kill them by surprise),1 -2 vexors, 1 Neut Domi
THERE ARE SO MANY SHIPS, WHICH CAN 'MAKE LOVE' TO AF GANG. It really depends how experienced are the attackers. actually it can cause escalation of the conflict. If I will be attacking miners I would add 2 SBs and one falcon and you will be toast anyway
"There is no honor in war, s |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.08 14:43:00 -
[12]
Caps lock is cruise control for being cool, amirite? Especially when you post random crap. Passive alligning is a myth (serious FCs get that).
Just load all mining ships with ECM drones.
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Azshann
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Posted - 2010.04.08 15:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Azshann on 08/04/2010 15:33:48 Edited by: Azshann on 08/04/2010 15:33:14 I'm thinking of combining AML Car's + Arb's with tracking disruptor. Would would be the optimal number of each needed to hold against 20-30 AF's? I'm thinking about 10 Car's and 6-7 Arb's, with our light escort that should be enough to drive them away.
By the way I really don't see us as "carebears" we sort of enjoy getting ganked, strange as that sounds, oh wait that's why we play EvE in null-sec/low-sec!
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Marquis d'Carabas
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Posted - 2010.04.08 15:49:00 -
[14]
Some Merc outfits provide PVP training to paying customers. Would check there first, they can give you a good tactical rundown of what to aim for on the alts.
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Umega
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.04.08 17:43:00 -
[15]
Dessie's are ok.. but AML caracals are more likely to make AF gangs not bother if they see them just roaming around the mining fleet.
Also killing them isn't your best defense, that may result in them showing up in greater numbers with bigger guns.
Annoy them to point of not wanting to bother. Some AML caracals and tons n tons o ECM med/light drones on the rorq/orcas and barges. Doesn't seem it would be in your best interest to get in entertaining fights with them as that would provoke more encounters.. so make the fights so frustrating for the attacker that they'll want to find different targets. The ECM POS style approach.
---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Urn Keller
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Posted - 2010.04.08 17:50:00 -
[16]
If you want to go destroyer, use a Thrasher with T2 ACs or 280mm artillery. Artillery is a very tight fit however and has no tank / prop mod. I'd use the thrasher with barrage, a TE2 and a Gyro2 in the lows, a medium shield extender in the mids for tank. Rig whatever you want (I'd go damage). You tear up frigs so fast in them.
AML caracal is great too. Shield gank Ruptures (425s, barrage, 2x TE2, medium neut) and of course vexors. All cheap good choices.
ECM drones are a good option on the barges too. They have pretty low sensor strength.
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Ralnik on 08/04/2010 19:41:22 Dessies can be nice but if you are going that route then just go with the Thrasher as it's the best all around. It gets nice range and has a decent slot layout.
If you want the ability to expand past Destroyers into ships that can deal with the AF gangs and bigger targets go the Gallente Drone boat route. Vexor > Myrmidom > Dommi
The draw back is the Gallente Destroyer kinda sucks IMO.. AML caracals are also very nasty against frigs but have a limited range of targets past that. .....
FactionWarfare.com New forum dedicated to all four FW factions. |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:49:00 -
[18]
AML Drakes.
Or HML Drakes with enough TPs/webs to go around.
Anyway, Drakes.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Veritaal
Amarr Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:55:00 -
[19]
In my experience, Destroyers take a fair amount of SP to be flown competitively. And even then, a cheap-fit destroyer would struggle against a single, well flown (And probably rigged) AF.
Some tips : - There are some T1 cruiser hulls that make an AF pilot cringe. Vexor, Arbitrator, AML Caracal and in some cases, the Thorax. - Mine in a dead-end system, and bubble the gate. No matter how slow your support is, they can steamroll in way before that fleet makes it to your belt. - You guys are just watching strip miners cycle... someone can watch for local spikes. - Have ratters in your fleet/system/nearby system. If you don't have ratters in your corp, hire some. There is always some overly anxious BS pilots looking for their first 0.0 experience.
If you stop presenting easy kills, they will stop rolling in. If you manage to wreck their AF fleet once or twice, they'll get sick of replacing the darn things.
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FITTINGS P0LICE
New Eden Deputies of Common Sense
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Posted - 2010.04.08 19:55:00 -
[20]
*** OFFICIAL COMMUNIQUE ***
-Dessies vs AF is gonna get you a lot of dead dessies.
-Asking "pvpers" to sit and watch you guys mine for hours is mind-numbing and a terribad idea.
-Retrivers... srsly... get hulks. and tank them.
-local and d-scan are your friends
--------- Fittings Police - Best Police |
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Dark Lightening
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Posted - 2010.04.08 20:40:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Dark Lightening on 08/04/2010 20:42:47
Originally by: Tanaka Reina I would recommend AML caracals, the range of the weapon and the damage with faction ammo against AF's is good.
+
the good bit, using missiles in pvp is quite easy to learn, its pretty much just point and shoot, and light missile skills are not that hard to learn.
This was going to be my suggested ship as well. Also using a Heavy Missile fitted Drake using T2 Precision ammo should do well.
But more importantly, as stated in a previous post intel on your enemy is going to be far more important than any defense fleet ship class choice. That's because AF's are not very expensive compared to a Hulk, so if these attacks are only lasting 45 seconds they are still likely to pop one of your Hulks before you can fend them off. In 45 seconds you are likely to only pop a small number of them if you are only bringing a small number of defense ships.
So, really the important part is to engage the enemy away from your miners. At gates or in neighboring systems, and when they do get into system your miners need to be already warping to a safe location BEFORE the enemy lands on grid with them.
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Nightshade Mary
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Posted - 2010.04.09 11:00:00 -
[22]
You could rent some hired help in AML Drakes... ;)
I am sure for an hourly fee protection could be provided.
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.04.09 12:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dark Lightening
So, really the important part is to engage the enemy away from your miners. At gates or in neighboring systems, and when they do get into system your miners need to be already warping to a safe location BEFORE the enemy lands on grid with them.
^ that. or put your alts in shuttles have them several jumps away at the choke points to your system. get them off grid near the entry gates, keep local and scanner open on them. when hostile enter you'll have advance warning and know ship types/amount.
@ furb , why doesn't passive align work? aside from gaiting, where the align is only a visual effect, it does take time for your ship to turn while getting to speed to enter warp. i've been on mining ops where the fc gang warped everyone out, and the aligned ships appear to drop into warp faster, and show up at the pos before others that don't point their nose at it. you are sure this is a myth?
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Shasz
Detox.
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Posted - 2010.04.09 17:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: K'racker
@ furb , why doesn't passive align work? aside from gaiting, where the align is only a visual effect, it does take time for your ship to turn while getting to speed to enter warp. i've been on mining ops where the fc gang warped everyone out, and the aligned ships appear to drop into warp faster, and show up at the pos before others that don't point their nose at it. you are sure this is a myth?
Yes, passive aligning is a myth. It doesn't matter what direction your ship is facing, it only matters what direction your ship is moving. Ship facing is all graphical and for display purposes only. Only velocity vectors count. The game goes through timed animations to make your ship appear to face the direction it is traveling, but that animation doesn't delay or speed up actual align times.
The simplest experiment you can use to prove this to yourself is to set your ship to approach something and bounce off of it. Your ship *should* always be pointing at the target object, since that's the direction you've commanded and the direction your thrust is always taking you. But your ship's visible facing will always attempt to point in the direction you *are moving*, not the direction you're trying to move.
At the time of the bounce, your ship moves backwards, opposite the direction you commanded, and your ship appears to turn around and go the opposite way you've told it. It *is* still trying to accelerate towards the object though, even though you've bounced off, and you'll slowly turn around again once your ship's thrust overcomes the bounce momentum.
You could perform other experiments with 2 identically skilled pilots in identical ships trying to warp at identical times (fleet warp might work to reduce or eliminate lag) with both "passively" aligned differently too, but that's a lot of work, and most people are too lazy to go to that much effort.
I'll bet ya 17M isk that they both warp at the same time though.
(Other visual experiments you could use are i-stabbed interceptors, or insta-warping freighters/orcas once they've been dual-webbed. Both of those ships will warp before their visual alignments catch up.) ___________________________________
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Salient
Caldari APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2010.04.09 19:03:00 -
[25]
2 words:
battle hulk
ut tensio sic vis |
Jintra Jin'tak
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vivisection.
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Posted - 2010.04.09 22:47:00 -
[26]
Destroyers are too easy to ...well...destroy. They'll just come back in nanocruisers and the like.
Take Vexors. They **** Frighulls and Cruiser hulls quite effective. If you're in for much lolz, take 5-6 Exequror with small remote reps in high, cap booster, mwd and 800mm plate.
they will kill frigs, cruisers AND small BC-Gangs with drones while keeping each other and drones alive. Very effective, totally unexpected and the KM's you get will be source of endless joy.
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JASON W0RTHING
future of humankind Wayfarer Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2010.04.10 14:40:00 -
[27]
1. Get Hulks. Tank them. A gang of AFs can wipe out a bunch of retrievers in 30 seconds Hulks take significantly longer. ECM Drones on the Hulks.
2. AML Caracals, AML Drakes, Vexors, Arbitrators, Ruptures. Several of any of these will make an AF Gang think twice about engaging.
3. Mine in a dead-end system. Watch local. Bubble Gate.
4. There is a HUGE difference between attacking 15 retrievers with a BS/BC or two and a carrier guarding them with a gang of AFs and attacking 15 hulks guarded by 10 assorted drone cruisers/caracals.
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Alt Tabbed
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Salient 2 words:
battle hulk
That's 3 words.
5 if you count the lulz.
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Eternum Praetorian
Method In Khaos
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Posted - 2010.04.12 02:01:00 -
[29]
Most of the advise here is complete and utter crap.
Assuming you are not in a wormhole, simply provide a forward scout when moving your miners. Drag your local to the upper left hand corner of your screen so you can watch local at all times and set the pirates to red.
When they enter system, warp away and cloak or Logoffski. No killing them will not make them go away, it will make them come back for more. Fighting them will only make you "fun targets." On the other hand, if you practice avoidance and do it well, you won't loose ships and pretty soon they will bugger off.
They may try and wait you out the first couple of times, but a gang like that will not have more then 10 min worth of patience in them. Teach them that you cannot be caught, and you will start to see them less often.
However . . . since Carebears around the universe refuse to implement anything sensible, I gather your gang will just keep right on AFK mining and dieing stupid senseless deaths. So this advice is moot.
Have fun fitting Drakes with AM
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superteds
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Posted - 2010.04.12 03:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Most of the advise here is complete and utter crap.
Assuming you are not in a wormhole, simply provide a forward scout when moving your miners. Drag your local to the upper left hand corner of your screen so you can watch local at all times and set the pirates to red.
When they enter system, warp away and cloak or Logoffski. No killing them will not make them go away, it will make them come back for more. Fighting them will only make you "fun targets." On the other hand, if you practice avoidance and do it well, you won't loose ships and pretty soon they will bugger off.
They may try and wait you out the first couple of times, but a gang like that will not have more then 10 min worth of patience in them. Teach them that you cannot be caught, and you will start to see them less often.
However . . . since Carebears around the universe refuse to implement anything sensible, I gather your gang will just keep right on AFK mining and dieing stupid senseless deaths. So this advice is moot.
Have fun fitting Drakes with AM
QFT. the best way to get left alone is to blueball them as much as possible.
IF you really want to fight them, ignore the destroyers idea. Unless your pilots are reasonably skilled in SP and PVP, it won't work. Instead use AML caracals and/or Vexors. But tbh NO pvp force is going to want to hold a miners hand all day on the off-chance they get jumped.
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