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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
79
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Posted - 2012.07.07 17:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I was sitting and thinking about regenerating armor.
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates:
28 tf 500 MW
4200 HP 2 750 000 kg
1600mm Biomechanical Rolled Tungsten Plates:
28 tf 500 MW
3600 HP 2 250 000 kg
Regenerates 40 HP each second.
*************************************************************** How would YOU balance this module? How much HP would you trade for which amount of regeneration? *************************************************************** |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
455
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Posted - 2012.07.07 20:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I was sitting and thinking about regenerating armor.
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates:
28 tf 500 MW
4200 HP 2 750 000 kg
1600mm Biomechanical Rolled Tungsten Plates:
28 tf 500 MW
3600 HP 2 250 000 kg
Regenerates 40 HP each second.
*************************************************************** How would YOU balance this module? How much HP would you trade for which amount of regeneration? ***************************************************************
Would be nice but instead of 3600 should have less HP than normal plate, 2.2K ? But this will never happen anyway brb |
Daria Meridian Carlile
Platinum-Tech-Industry
12
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Posted - 2012.07.07 20:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
40 hp/sec would be almost 60% of what a max skilled Large armor repairer II gives, but with no cap use and only 1/4th the powergrid usage.. Suffice to say, such a module would be overpowered even if it didn't give any armor. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
81
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Posted - 2012.07.07 20:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well that's fine, I merely wanted a discussion about a module of this kind. I tried to highlight very specifically what YOU would do to balance it. If my figures are OP, give some figures you think would be proper. |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
28
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Posted - 2012.07.07 20:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Daria Meridian Carlile wrote:40 hp/sec would be almost 60% of what a max skilled Large armor repairer II gives, but with no cap use and only 1/4th the powergrid usage.. Suffice to say, such a module would be overpowered even if it didn't give any armor. Unless it only regenerated when not under fire. or when under fire it would regenerate at a slower rate.
It would however allow someone fitting an armor tank that is buffer armor and no rep to retreat when the target is dead or they are no longer being tackled and let their armor regen. |
Daria Meridian Carlile
Platinum-Tech-Industry
13
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Posted - 2012.07.07 20:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Well that's fine, I merely wanted a discussion about a module of this kind. I tried to highlight very specifically what YOU would do to balance it. If my figures are OP, give some figures you think would be proper.
Well, let's see..
I do like the idea of a truely passive armor tank,
I'd imagine it being a module that solely adds armor regeneration without cap use, similar to a Shield Power Relay but without the loss of cap regen (which would be justified by the fact that all armor modules are low slot)
The regeneration would of course be based on the amount of armor on the ship, any set amount would lead to unbalance between ship classes.
Perhaps with power/cpu requirements similar to the Reactive Armor Hardener (24cpu/1pg)
Giving 0.75% armor regen per second at skill level 5
This may not sound like much, but on for example a harbinger with 2 800mm plates and 3 trimarks, this would equal almost 140 hp/sec regen. |
Dietz0r Saraki
Panzerwaschanlage
6
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Posted - 2012.07.08 02:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Daria Meridian Carlile wrote:
Well, let's see..
I do like the idea of a truely passive armor tank,
I'd imagine it being a module that solely adds armor regeneration without cap use, similar to a Shield Power Relay but without the loss of cap regen (which would be justified by the fact that all armor modules are low slot)
The regeneration would of course be based on the amount of armor on the ship, any set amount would lead to unbalance between ship classes.
Perhaps with power/cpu requirements similar to the Reactive Armor Hardener (24cpu/1pg)
Giving 0.75% armor regen per second at skill level 5
This may not sound like much, but on for example a harbinger with 2 800mm plates and 3 trimarks, this would equal almost 140 hp/sec regen.
Or a Megathron with 2 1600mm plates, 3 trimarks and 2 EANM II and a DC II, it would have 214.5 pure regen, aprox. 323 dps omnitank
what i like about this.
1.) it's a module on its own (-1 lowslot for passiv armor tank) 2.) it's percentage based 3.) it doesn't scream "OP" in your face so it may be viable.
i like it. :) |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
42
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Posted - 2012.07.08 04:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Get a shield tank if you want regen.
Every time i see a thread about armor tanking, it always seems to be someone asking for armor tanks to be as good as they are now, but also do what shield tanks do.
When i started this game, people laughed at the idea of using shield tanks in PvP. They laughed at it. Now it's considered the thing to do. You know what's changed?
Nothing, the ships are all the same.
Shield passive regen is to make up for the deficit in buffer due to not having over sized shield extenders, and no Slaves. It is also useless in a fight unless you fit several modules to boost it, and even then only on a few ships. A DRAEK for example will use all of it's mids, all of its rigs plus 2 low slots to get a good passive tank for missions, and it is still not as good as an active tanked drake, AND it loses a chunk of DPS.
Just train shield tanking and quite crying about it. I've trained both, it only took a few weeks. |
Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
73
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Posted - 2012.07.08 05:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
And then nobody flew a shield tanking ship ever again.
Not supported. Armor already has far too much going for it compared to shields IMO. Slap these on a Damnation or something and you're going to get nigh unkillable ships. |
Reicine Ceer
Rodents of Unusual Size The Rat Race
37
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Posted - 2012.07.08 11:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
This would MAYBE work if the regen rate was inversely proportional to the size of the hull or (more sensibly) the size of the plate fitted.
Smaller plate = faster regen Larger plate = slower regen
...unless i'm fantastically mistaken, this would solve the issues surrounding "armour regen" as a concern, provide better fights for frig pvp/e and not effect "real" pvp. Hell, you could even slap multiple small plates onto a BC using this equation and while you;d end up with an almost-acceptable armour regen/second, your damage would be horribly gimped.
Tbh tho i think the tanking is fine as-is. Armour ships are slow n heavy and can use lots of utilities - shield ships are nippy, regenerating damage protection but lack utility possibilities. It's a nice tradeoff that perhaps could even benefit from further diversity, but that's another post for another thread :) |
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
405
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 12:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aglais wrote:And then nobody flew a shield tanking ship ever again.
Not supported. Armor already has far too much going for it compared to shields IMO. Slap these on a Damnation or something and you're going to get nigh unkillable ships.
A Myrm with rack of SPRs gets over 400 hp/s regen, out of a t1 BC. The bar is set pretty high for any new armor regen implementation to match. And armor has little going for it atm. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
44
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Posted - 2012.07.08 12:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Aglais wrote:And then nobody flew a shield tanking ship ever again.
Not supported. Armor already has far too much going for it compared to shields IMO. Slap these on a Damnation or something and you're going to get nigh unkillable ships. A Myrm with rack of SPRs gets over 400 hp/s regen, out of a t1 BC. The bar is set pretty high for any new armor regen implementation to match. And armor has little going for it atm.
Aside from the fact that armour will generally have more hitpoints? Aside from the fact that armour cant have its resists neuted out (EANM vs Invul)? Aside from the fact that slaves actually work on capital ships, where crystals dont. Aside from the fact that armour has a different resist profile to shields, and doesn't have ANYTHING with 0% base resists?
Yup, armour tanking has nothing to recommend it. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
405
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 13:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Paikis wrote:sabre906 wrote:Aglais wrote:And then nobody flew a shield tanking ship ever again.
Not supported. Armor already has far too much going for it compared to shields IMO. Slap these on a Damnation or something and you're going to get nigh unkillable ships. A Myrm with rack of SPRs gets over 400 hp/s regen, out of a t1 BC. The bar is set pretty high for any new armor regen implementation to match. And armor has little going for it atm. Aside from the fact that armour will generally have more hitpoints? Aside from the fact that armour cant have its resists neuted out (EANM vs Invul)? Aside from the fact that slaves actually work on capital ships, where crystals dont. Aside from the fact that armour has a different resist profile to shields, and doesn't have ANYTHING with 0% base resists? Yup, armour tanking has nothing to recommend it.
These minor footnotes added together don't come close to speed penalty. So yes, armor has little going for it atm, their [lack of] popularity speaks for itself. Action speaks louder than words. Shield people moan that armor is OP, while refusing to fly them. Same as how Winmatards are against any attempt to bring Gallante back into balance. Everyone looks out for number one. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
44
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Posted - 2012.07.08 13:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:These minor footnotes added together don't come close to speed penalty. So yes, armor has little going for it atm, their [lack of] popularity speaks for itself. Action speaks louder than words. Shield people moan that armor is OP, while refusing to fly them. Same as how Winmatards are against any attempt to bring Gallante back into balance. Everyone looks out for number one.
I'm guessing that you're an armor tanker who is looking out for number 1 then?
So what is your solution? Because if your solution is yet another variant of 'I want what shield tanking gets!' then I'll pre-emptively ask you to leave and to make sure the door hits you on the way out.
I personally can and do fly both armor and shield tanks. They are useful for different things. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
405
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 20:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Paikis wrote:sabre906 wrote:These minor footnotes added together don't come close to speed penalty. So yes, armor has little going for it atm, their [lack of] popularity speaks for itself. Action speaks louder than words. Shield people moan that armor is OP, while refusing to fly them. Same as how Winmatards are against any attempt to bring Gallante back into balance. Everyone looks out for number one. I'm guessing that you're an armor tanker who is looking out for number 1 then? So what is your solution? Because if your solution is yet another variant of 'I want what shield tanking gets!' then I'll pre-emptively ask you to leave and to make sure the door hits you on the way out. I personally can and do fly both armor and shield tanks. They are useful for different things.
I run armor tank in Incursions, shield tank for everything else both pve and pvp. Reasons for these choices are obvious. Search the forums for it.
Instead of "what shield tanking gets" how do you feel about fliping the penalties - armor gets larger sig, and shield gets speed penalty. No? Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
46
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Posted - 2012.07.09 02:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:I run armor tank in Incursions, shield tank for everything else both pve and pvp. Reasons for these choices are obvious. Search the forums for it. Instead of "what shield tanking gets" how do you feel about fliping the penalties - armor gets larger sig, and shield gets speed penalty. No?
No solution offered. So it was just a case of 'I want what shield tanks get' who'd have thunk it?
Let's take a look at two different Harbinger fits. Shield gank and Brick tanked. For fairness' sake I have set EFT to show all Vs, instead of my skills, because I am slightly better with armor than shields.
Shield Harbinger: Signature: 1816 m Speed: 1346 m/s Align time: 8.9s EHP: 31237 DPS: 389 w/ FMPL II and Scorch, drones not included.
Brick Harbinger: Signature: 1590 m Speed: 836 m/s Align time: 15.8s EHP: 69782 DPS: 369 w/ FMPL II and Scroch, no drones.
So you're trading about 40% of your speed and 20 DPS in exchange for more than doubling your EHPs, and taking less damage from missiles. And if we go ahead and add slaves, the Brick tank gets 100k EHP. How about more than tripple the hitpoints for a loss of under half the speed? |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
147
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Posted - 2012.07.09 05:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
you are using a harbinger as your shield/armor example? really?
why not use a cane as that is at lease accepted as either a shield or armor tank. or put that harb up against a shield tank (as the harb is a fairly obvious armor tank and not an either or like the cane is)
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
46
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Posted - 2012.07.09 05:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'll let you go ahead and do that one. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
147
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 05:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Instead of "what shield tanking gets" how do you feel about fliping the penalties - armor gets larger sig, and shield gets speed penalty. No?
Kusum Fawn wrote: Why are you using a harb and not a cane?
you got two questions to answer first please. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 06:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:sabre906 wrote:Instead of "what shield tanking gets" how do you feel about fliping the penalties - armor gets larger sig, and shield gets speed penalty. No? Kusum Fawn wrote: Why are you using a harb and not a cane?
you got two questions to answer first please.
I already answered that. If you want the benefits of shield tanking, you have to have the down sides as well. That means no mids for tackle, that means less buffer because of over sized plates, that means you take more damage due to increased sig radius, that means your resists can be neuted out, that means your active tank takes extra cap to run.
You're focusing on one penalty and saying FIX EET! without considering all the other stuff that comes with shield tanking. If you want the good, you have to take the bad.
And I used harby because I'm lazy. I didn't have a shield fit cane in EFT and to be quite frank I couldn't be arsed fitting one to argue against this dead horse. It's not going to happen anyways.
Your turn. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
790
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 06:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:armor has little going for it atm, their [lack of] popularity speaks for itself. Action speaks louder than words. Correct me if I'm wrong... but Amarr ships seem to be doing quite well PvP-wise. The penalties of armor tanking is of very little hinderence to them.
sabre906 wrote:Shield people moan that armor is OP, while refusing to fly them. Same as how Winmatards are against any attempt to bring Gallante back into balance. Everyone looks out for number one. The only reason shield people moan about armor tanking and refuse to fly it is because the ship line that can use armor tanking best (the Amarr) lacks the speed and flexibility that shield tankers are used to (also, slow armor tanks usually require that one commit to a battle while shield tanking doesn't, and this usually doesn't sit well with someone who is used to kiting or doesn't have much ISK). As for Gallente... the problem is not armor tanking per se... it's not even their weapons system of choice either... it's combining to two together.
The systems by themselves are fine. The problem is how it various systems were paired off with one another (i.e. you can't give a ship a weapon system that needs to be in close range and then give it a defense system that slows it down). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
82
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Posted - 2012.07.09 12:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Well this escalated quickly.
To make it even more obvious, What I tried to promote was the idea of armor tanks that sacrifices raw HP for some regeneration. So in effect, it would be like a shield tank with a bit more HP and a bit less regen. You still get the penalty of speed, agility and few lowslots for DPS mods. Why I suggested a set amount of HP regen pr second was because you can't abuse that the same way you can shield. A Thorax can fit 2 x 1600mm plates, but then it can't do much else. Now I'm not saying my numbers were the best by far, but it would be interesting with something in between raw armor buffer and raw shield buffer. And all you shieldtankers on your high horses and allknowing knowitalls. You can go on a roam and get fight upon fight upon fight and roam on. We can get one fight, and then we have to get back to station to rep armor. Yaaaaaaaay, go solo armor tank roam.... Bleh |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
241
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Posted - 2012.07.09 12:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sure you can have regenerating plates. Just as soon as they introduce X-large shield extenders, that is. |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
49
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Posted - 2012.07.09 12:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Sure you can have regenerating plates. Just as soon as they introduce X-large shield extenders, that is.
You forgot the slaves. I want slaves too. Ones that work on shields. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
82
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Posted - 2012.07.09 12:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Sure you can have regenerating plates. Just as soon as they introduce X-large shield extenders, that is.
"If you want something different, I want something superior!" |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
82
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Posted - 2012.07.09 13:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Also, you got the damn ASB. Shush on you |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
49
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Posted - 2012.07.09 13:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Sure you can have regenerating plates. Just as soon as they introduce X-large shield extenders, that is. "If you want something different, I want something superior!"
Problem is you haven't asked for something 'different' you've asked for something from shield tanking. Regen is shield tanking's thing. Armor tanking's thing is bigger buffer.
Hannott Thanos wrote:Also, you got the damn ASB. Shush on you
We all know that module is in line for a swing from the nerf bat. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
34
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Posted - 2012.07.09 14:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:Daria Meridian Carlile wrote:40 hp/sec would be almost 60% of what a max skilled Large armor repairer II gives, but with no cap use and only 1/4th the powergrid usage.. Suffice to say, such a module would be overpowered even if it didn't give any armor. Unless it only regenerated when not under fire. or when under fire it would regenerate at a slower rate. It would however allow someone fitting an armor tank that is buffer armor and no rep to retreat when the target is dead or they are no longer being tackled and let their armor regen.
They should make the regenerative armor module like that, right now that module is barely useful in very limited and specific situations! |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
411
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Posted - 2012.07.09 14:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Sure you can have regenerating plates. Just as soon as they introduce X-large shield extenders, that is.
As long as it comes with a speed penalty. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Paikis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
49
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Posted - 2012.07.09 14:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Sure you can have regenerating plates. Just as soon as they introduce X-large shield extenders, that is. As long as it comes with a speed penalty.
You want regen with no penalties, why can't we get extra large shield extenders with no penalties. Also, the penalty would be signiture radius. FYI. |
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