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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2010.04.25 00:35:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mazzarins Demise on 25/04/2010 00:44:32 Hey all, I've played EVE on and off for several years now, and one of the things I thoroughly enjoy is the opportunity to craft and eventually sell goods on the market. As many industrialists and manufacturers will tell you though, this crap weighs a ton!
During my experiences, it seems to me that EVE is lacking a certain middle ground in terms of maximum cargo capacity, speed, and durability for its proverbial beasts of burden. On one end of the spectrum we have the Iteron Mark V. With a maximum cargo space of around 25k, or a tad more if you're using secure containers, we have the pinnacle of cheap hauling for the average high-sec industrialist. For those who produce way more than typical while also using millions of materials to boot though, this "little" ship just doesn't cut it.
The next obvious choice, which also happens to lie on the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, is the freighter. For those who do intermediate hauling, for instance in the 50-250k weight range, the mighty freighter can feel a little overkill. To put it even simpler: like using a hammer to swat a fly. I feel like I'm wasting my time hauling goods that only take up 10% of my maximum allowable cargo weight to a local trade hub. Some have mentioned the Orca, with its warp speed of 2.7 AU/s over the freighter's 0.75 AU/s, but it's really not the greatest alternative.
This is where I feel that EVE could greatly benefit from a new Industrial ship line. Perhaps ORE or the four main factions have been holding out on us and now finally decide to divulge their secret hauler. I'm not quite sure what CCP could call the new line, as I've never been great at naming things. Perhaps Heavy Industrials or something as equally uncreative. See, I told ya I sucked at naming things . Basically, a new ship type that holds more than the Itty V as well as being slower, but nowhere near as much or as snail-paced as the freighter.
In any case, I figured I'd bring this idea to the CSM and see what you guys thought about it. Since CCP is kinda boosting the industrial side of the game with the new expansion, the timing seems to work well here.
Anyways, cheers and fly safe. Oh, and thanks for reading.
tldr - A new, middle-ground hauler that can handle heavier loads than the lowly industrials.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.25 01:05:00 -
[2]
The problem was solved with the introduction of 132 714m¦ hauler.
also the armor tanked transport ships can easily reach 39k m¦. though they are dirt slow then. so i still prefer the orca.
and the 2.7AU are faaaaaaaaaaaast compared to the 0.7AU of the freighter. Last but not least ... if you web the orca/freighter the ships suddenly align plenty fast. but yeah not exactly AFK hauling anymore then.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.25 02:12:00 -
[3]
The Orca is the ship you want. You do not need to ask for a second Orca.
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2010.04.25 02:16:00 -
[4]
Thank you for your response Darius, I'll go through your post bit by bit.
Quote: The problem was solved with the introduction of 132 714m¦ hauler.
Sorta kinda. To me, the Orca doesn't fulfill the role of "hauler middle ground" all that well, despite the cargo hold. Let's look at the skills necessary to fly both the Orca and the Charon. According to the skill plan I created with EVE Mon using the most basic of characters, it would take someone approximately 61 days before they are able to pilot an Orca, while it would take a fresh character only 32 days to jump into a freighter. (I didn't include learning skills in my computations) Obviously the times will be slightly different based on implants and skill layouts, but the general idea remains the same.
While the Orca can fulfill this role which I believe is missing, it really wasn't designed specifically with this in mind, hence the increased skill cost.
Quote: Also the armor tanked transport ships can easily reach 39k m¦. though they are dirt slow then.
I appreciate this info as I wasn't aware that the transport ships were capable of this capacity, but needing only 1 different skill to pilot, it takes just as long to get into as the freighter. Although it's definitely a viable alternative to use over the Itty V if you're able to pilot a freighter, it's a shame it doesn't have a bigger cargo space. But, as you know I'm sure, the transport ships were mainly designed and revamped for low-sec and 0.0 hauling because of the cloak or the resistance to warp jamming. Based on what ship you flew anyway.
Quote: and the 2.7AU are faaaaaaaaaaaast compared to the 0.7AU of the freighter.
Yep, I mention this in my OP, but as I explained in my response to you, the Orca takes nearly double the time to get into.
Quote: Last but not least ... if you web the orca/freighter the ships suddenly align plenty fast. but yeah not exactly AFK hauling anymore then.
I wrote the OP geared more towards the solo industrialists, but yep that does work. And yea, not exactly AFK hauling :D.
Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.25 09:25:00 -
[5]
Your conveniently leaving out a few key details in your little comparison.
The Orca is cheaper for one.
The Freighter is not.
The Orca is more flexible in functionality than the Freighter is.
All the Freighter does is haul goods in mass.
The Orca can load and unload cargo in space... the Freighter can't.
So in all honesty what your looking for is an Orca sized hauler that can haul more stuff and not take so long to train.
Not going to happen.... no ship will ever fit anyone's needs perfectly... that's the point.
EVE is not supposed to be easy... its supposed to be a challenge.
Transport Ships also double as better/stronger hauler... not necessarily a bigger hauler.
As everyone says.. adapt or die.
Personally the Orca is the perfect middle ground for all things hauling... if it could carry more it would be too powerful.
There are times I wish it could hold more... but then I realize a lot of it is ME making the problem and not the other way around.
So in conclusion... not supporting... at least for now. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.04.25 12:40:00 -
[6]
I just throw this into here cause I feel no one has noticed it so far. Well the orca was never a hauling ship it was intended to be a mining support ship and thus i think there is still space for a med sized hauler which should have around 1/3 of the cargo space of a freighter and requires something like transport ship to 4 to get the orca back to it intended role you could limit the orcas cargo to ores only
Crazy
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.25 12:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Crazy KSK I just throw this into here cause I feel no one has noticed it so far. Well the orca was never a hauling ship it was intended to be a mining support ship and thus i think there is still space for a med sized hauler which should have around 1/3 of the cargo space of a freighter and requires something like transport ship to 4 to get the orca back to it intended role you could limit the orcas cargo to ores only
Crazy
1. the orca is a multi role ship 2. even when we assume, its primary role is mining support, nobody stops you from using it outside of that role.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.25 17:49:00 -
[8]
The Orca was designed specifically as a small freighter. Yeah, it helps with mining, and the skills go in a different direction, but it's a small freighter.
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Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.04.25 18:02:00 -
[9]
There is no need to make a medium weight hauler when you can use the orca. QQ moar about training time. This idea is redundant. ~_~
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Centurax
Caldari Eve Engineering
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Posted - 2010.04.25 19:30:00 -
[10]
Ok if you dont want to train for an Orca and maybe cant afford a freighter, exactly what are you looking for in this new class of transport ?
I think a smaller freighter has been looked at before and I think that is where the Orca came from anyway, that and the need for a better hauler for mining .
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2010.04.25 19:39:00 -
[11]
Hey all, just wanted to thank you guys for your thoughts and criticisms. I'll go through each of your posts and respond to them accordingly.
Originally by: Drake Draconis Your conveniently leaving out a few key details in your little comparison.
Well, it really wasn't out of convenience, more so out of forgetfulness .
Quote: The Orca is cheaper for one. The Freighter is not.
Nope, no arguments there.
Quote: All the Freighter does is haul goods in mass. The Orca can load and unload cargo in space... the Freighter can't.
While true to a certain extent, the Freighter can unload and load at an online POS. But that's not really the point of my post.
Quote: So in all honesty what your looking for is an Orca sized hauler that can haul more stuff and not take so long to train.
Well, that is the point of my OP. The reason the Orca takes so long to train in comparison to the freighter is because of all the extra stuff it can do. In reality, the Orca really only has a 90,000m3 capacity, because if you're hauling something other than ships, the maintenance array and the corp hangar are useless. Is there really a problem with having a mid-sized hauler that just hauls without the trimmings?
Quote: Not going to happen.... no ship will ever fit anyone's needs perfectly... that's the point.
This is a misnomer as there wouldn't be any role-specific ships such as E-War, mining, hauling, recon, logistics, etc.
Quote: EVE is not supposed to be easy... its supposed to be a challenge.
When did I say it wasn't? Was this the reason people gave when they were asking for a high-sec version of the Rorqual?
Thanks for your input!
Originally by: Lady Spank QQ moar about training time. This idea is redundant.
Thank you for your input. For me personally, the increased training time isn't a big deal. But in the big picture, it doesn't make sense. Does it make sense that the middle-ground freighter, as you've put it, takes much longer to train than the best hauler in the whole game? I understand it performs other roles than just haul, but it wouldn't make sense if the Osprey took longer to train than the Covetor, just because it can fit missiles, armor, and is better at using shield transporters as well as being able to mine well.
This is not a post about ME, ME, ME. I can fly the Iteron V, the Orca, and freighters for both the Gallente and the Caldari. I wasn't creating this post in a selfish attempt to better my specific situation. Apologies if you feel that way.
Anyway, thank you all again for your comments and ideas.
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2010.04.25 19:45:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Mazzarins Demise on 25/04/2010 19:45:02
Originally by: Centurax Ok if you dont want to train for an Orca and maybe cant afford a freighter, exactly what are you looking for in this new class of transport ?
I think a smaller freighter has been looked at before and I think that is where the Orca came from anyway, that and the need for a better hauler for mining .
Hey Centurax, as I mention in the post that came just after yours, I can fly all three ship types. Apologies, I didn't see your post before I put mine up.
Basically, I'm looking for a simple ship that can haul anywhere from 50,000m3 to 200,000. Simple as that, nothing elaborate or anything that hurts the other ship types, specifically the Orca. Non-mining traders and industrialists gain little to no benefit from the ship maintenance array or the corp hangar, and they're left with a 90,000m3 cargohold. Which isn't bad in the least to be honest :).
The Orca was merely a response to the Rorqual, as high-sec miners wanted something that could fulfill a similar role, corp-based mining ops, but one that is allowed to enter high-sec.
I'm just looking for something simple that just hauls mid-level cargo. Nothing more, nothing less. Training times can be anything, the ship could need race-specific industry to 5, but a cheaper skillbook to use. The ship can cost from 100-200 mil. Didn't really think that specifically.
Anyway, thanks for the input.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.25 20:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mazzarins Demise In reality, the Orca really only has a 90,000m3 capacity, because if you're hauling something other than ships, the maintenance array and the corp hangar are useless.
False. The corp hangar gives you 40km3 of storage(better than an Itty 5), no matter what you're hauling. Corp hangars can be used by the pilot, and have zero restrictions on what can go in them. The ore and ship bays are limited, but the cargo and corp bays are open.
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2010.04.25 21:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Mazzarins Demise In reality, the Orca really only has a 90,000m3 capacity, because if you're hauling something other than ships, the maintenance array and the corp hangar are useless.
False. The corp hangar gives you 40km3 of storage(better than an Itty 5), no matter what you're hauling. Corp hangars can be used by the pilot, and have zero restrictions on what can go in them. The ore and ship bays are limited, but the cargo and corp bays are open.
Oops my mistake. Apologies, long day today .
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.25 21:03:00 -
[15]
before I forget it again ... try an orca with 2 istabs in the lows.^^
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Nivl
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Posted - 2010.04.26 00:07:00 -
[16]
How about a compromise. Not a new ship but a new skill?
"Loadmaster" adds 5% per level to the cargo capacity of the currently active ship, whatever it is. Cumulative with any other ship specific or other bonus.
Prerequisites: Engineering V and Mechanic V.
- would permit the mackinaw to hold two ice harvesting cycles instead of 1.997 - make the orca more palatable for the mid-large hauler
JMHO
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Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.26 15:42:00 -
[17]
IMAO we do need a minifgeighter. ORca is a mining ship, that's why it has orebays. Sure, you can use it for hauling, just the same way you can mine in a battleship. However having an intermediate hauling ship, simple one and relatively cheap, that does not have mining gang links, corp hangars, ship maintenance bays and ore bays but just has good cargo would be beneficial for most of us.
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Galen Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.26 20:56:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Galen Gallente on 26/04/2010 20:56:55 Yes we do need a new one, the requirements to fly an Orca are asinine for filling a shipping role.
Oh and also having a variant that can transport fitted ships only would be a great improvement. I mean 2-3 BSes worth of fitted ship space.
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Cyprus Black
Caldari League of Extraordinary Moustaches
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Posted - 2010.04.26 21:35:00 -
[19]
I find it funny that the Orca serves as a hauler and a high sec mini carrier better than its intended purpose.
I bet I could run L4 missions in a properly fit Orca if the acceleration gate let me through. ___________________________________ "In the land of predators, the lion does not fear the jackal." -Dexter |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.26 21:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cyprus Black I find it funny that the Orca serves as a hauler and a high sec mini carrier better than its intended purpose.
IMHO it does both roles pretty well.
Quote: I bet I could run L4 missions in a properly fit Orca if the acceleration gate let me through.
Now that might be something worth trying. missions like "the score" should be doable. :D and you got plenty room for cap charges lol.
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Teinyhr
Nor'akho Matar
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Posted - 2010.04.26 23:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: darius mclever The problem was solved with the introduction of 132 714m¦ hauler.
Yes, and what about the people that have no aspiration in mining, ever? Spending time to skill for Mining Barge V and Mining Foreman V just for this ship seems kinda pointless if you're not going to engage in either of these activities.
IMO there certainly is an order in place for sub-capital haulers that offer more hauling space than basic industrial ships but of course less than a freighter. Skills I'd propose Industry V, Racial industrial V and possibly some other relevant, new skill to 3, the new skill could increase speed of the ship to match normal industrials or somethig. Supporting the OP's proposal. ------------------- This is Sig. Launch every Sig. For Great Justice. |
Vlad McCain
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Posted - 2010.04.26 23:29:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Vlad McCain on 26/04/2010 23:32:04
Originally by: Cyprus Black I find it funny that the Orca serves as a hauler and a high sec mini carrier better than its intended purpose.
I bet I could run L4 missions in a properly fit Orca if the acceleration gate let me through.
many lvl4's do. esp the ones that have a ton of ore in em. and no drone bonus, but it still kicks ass with any t2 large/med drones. even vs sleepers.
also id like to see -something- to replace the crappy badger series with, out side of my orca
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Corbeau Lenoir
ZER0. IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.27 06:49:00 -
[23]
Orca is already here to fill this role. Take it or leave it.
Vote me for CSM5! |
steave435
Caldari Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.04.27 15:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Corbeau Lenoir Orca is already here to fill this role. Take it or leave it.
And it does it damn well. It has a large cargo, warps fast, and it only needs a single PG mod (or a 5% PG implant) in order to fit a 100mn MWD that it can use to align with, making it atleast as fast as the other haulers, but more secure since the corp hangar can't be scanned.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.04.27 18:44:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Bagehi on 27/04/2010 18:45:00 You have: multiple T1 haulers two different T2 haulers an Orca a freighter a jump freighter a Rorqual and carriers/dreads are also functional haulers
Do we seriously need ANOTHER hauling ship?
I have, however, always been baffled by this: Caldari industrial ships: 2 Amarr industrial ships: 2 Minmatar industrial ships: 3 Gallente industrial ships: 5???
Do people really need a new ship for each level of Gallente industrial they've trained? Obviously no one else does.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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TheShadowNode
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Posted - 2010.04.27 21:11:00 -
[26]
Agree and support...
Role-specific intermediate ships FTW... not having one is like going from Cruisers to Logistics without all the fancy footwork in the steps between where you get to fly HACs, HICs, Recons, etc...
Just IMO obv... <3
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.27 21:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: TheShadowNode Agree and support...
Role-specific intermediate ships FTW... not having one is like going from Cruisers to Logistics without all the fancy footwork in the steps between where you get to fly HACs, HICs, Recons, etc...
Just IMO obv... <3
since when are hacs, hics and recons on the route to logistic cruisers? o_O
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TheShadowNode
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Posted - 2010.04.28 04:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: TheShadowNode Agree and support...
Role-specific intermediate ships FTW... not having one is like going from Cruisers to Logistics without all the fancy footwork in the steps between where you get to fly HACs, HICs, Recons, etc...
Just IMO obv... <3
since when are hacs, hics and recons on the route to logistic cruisers? o_O
Ever since I'm too lazy to find a better example.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.28 09:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: TheShadowNode Ever since I'm too lazy to find a better example.
Then let me tell you ... they were never in the path to logistic cruisers.
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Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.04.28 13:59:00 -
[30]
I think this middle ship is a good idea. It's unrealistic that the eve market wouldn't fill this gap. I don't think there should be required industry skills to fly one though. I think the skills should be related to - well flying ships.
The orca seems to indeed be a mining boat. Look at the bonuses. 6 of the 7 bonuses are useless for simple hauling.
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