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Jokastis
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Posted - 2010.04.26 00:06:00 -
[1]
Right now I see the Scorpion as the kid at school that no one likes, who comes back after the summer with a new hair cut and cool clothes trying to impress, but everyone still hates him.
As of right now the scorpions stats make in an EW boat. But it's cruiser sized counter parts do a better job.
It doesn't have a damage bonus, or a shield bonus. I just don't see how it's EW bonuses are making it a viable ship.
I wouldn't change slot lay out, but I would change it's bonuses... or at least one of them.
What does everyone else think?
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Azcatl
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Posted - 2010.04.26 00:19:00 -
[2]
So you want to take away the only EWAR BS to add another Dps BS which there are already too many of???
If you want EWAR on a BS sized ship fly a Scorpion, if you want dps fly a Raven.
I hate to say this but its not brain surgery here.
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Jokastis
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Posted - 2010.04.26 00:21:00 -
[3]
I understand what you are saying. I didn't mean for it to sound like I wanted to change it from a EWAR ship, I just would like it to be better than it's smaller counterparts.
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Azcatl
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Posted - 2010.04.26 00:34:00 -
[4]
Its set at similar to the smaller T1 EWAR ships but yes the T2 are much better but thats for T2.
I beleive the Scorpion hull is only there so they had a good Hull for the Widow ;P
Saying this if you want to change the Scorpion don't make its dps better make its EWAR better so we don't end up with another generic DPS boat.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.26 00:51:00 -
[5]
I would make the Scorp what CCP originally proposed when they nerfed ECM: 5% ROF [6 launchers hopefully!], 30% jam str. Gimme dat brawler!
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Vormico
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Posted - 2010.04.26 00:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jokastis I understand what you are saying. I didn't mean for it to sound like I wanted to change it from a EWAR ship, I just would like it to be better than it's smaller counterparts.
better how?
Sure rook and falcon have better jamming str, but not very good range compare to scorp, thinner tank, not 100% insurable.
Blackbird, same jamming str as scorp, thinner tank, decent but lesser range.
Scorp is a good ship imo, nobody likes it because they hate being ECMed. |
Azcatl
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Posted - 2010.04.26 02:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I would make the Scorp what CCP originally proposed when they nerfed ECM: 5% ROF [6 launchers hopefully!], 30% jam str. Gimme dat brawler!
-Liang
People hate being Jammed now, imagine your idea, Scorp could Jam and kill alot faster
Multiply the current Scorp hate by infinity and thats how much this ship would be hated, apart from Scorp pilots of course
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Lego Maniac
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.04.26 03:27:00 -
[8]
what do you mean the cruiser ECM boats do a better job? because they don't, on all counts
with the scorp, there's plenty of advantages - the 8 mids makes sure that there's plenty of jamming to go around, while the 4 lows provide enough of a buffer tank that it doesn't fall apart the instant someone sneezes in its direction (also, +1 rig slot)
moreover, the fact that it is T1 also means that you can fly the scorp with a completely throw away mentality, which equates to better performance on the battlefield because you're sticking around longer __________________________________________________________
˄ ____________ ˄ |
Naliena Arlath
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Posted - 2010.04.26 05:05:00 -
[9]
+ more tank + more medslots / jammers + more range + insurable
- slow - too big for some WH's - less jam strenght
Picking scorp over falcon is purely a matter of what situations you expect to face, and vice versa.
I like the scorp and taking away its bonus or changing it would make it even more of the kid at school noone likes.
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RasaelWolf
Caldari Easy Co. Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.04.26 06:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Azcatl
Originally by: Liang Nuren I would make the Scorp what CCP originally proposed when they nerfed ECM: 5% ROF [6 launchers hopefully!], 30% jam str. Gimme dat brawler!
-Liang
People hate being Jammed now, imagine your idea, Scorp could Jam and kill alot faster
Multiply the current Scorp hate by infinity and thats how much this ship would be hated, apart from Scorp pilots of course
True that people hate being jammed, but there's one thing... armageddon, dominix and the typhoon are all used like 10 times more than the Scorpion, why? Because they are more useful in combat, the armageddon deals heaps of damage, the dominix tanks like hell and does decent damage, and the typhoon is the most versatile BS there is, but the Scorpion, meh, it's useless. So those Bonus's would make the Scorpion as used as all of the ones i listed, and it could even put up a fight against those..
So imo those bonus' would be just fine
---------------------------------------- "The more we learn, the less we care" ---------------------------------------- |
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.26 10:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I would make the Scorp what CCP originally proposed when they nerfed ECM: 5% ROF [6 launchers hopefully!], 30% jam str. Gimme dat brawler!
-Liang
Agreed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.04.26 10:12:00 -
[12]
I'd give it 10 mids. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.04.26 10:13:00 -
[13]
I'd remove the activation amount limit for ECM burst on it. --------
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X99 Z990
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Posted - 2010.04.26 12:14:00 -
[14]
id just give it 175m3 drone bay, making it unique that its the caldari ship that can use 5 heavy drones but not OP
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Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2010.04.26 13:06:00 -
[15]
I think its relatively low jam strength and **** poor sensor strength really hurt it.
Buff both.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2010.04.26 13:19:00 -
[16]
There is nothing wrong with the Scorpion as it currently exists. The problem is that when CCP nerfed ECM again, they killed the Scorps ability to employ ECM in the fleet sniper fight. Before, you could full strength jam at an optimal that matched the range of the typical sniper fight. Now, you're in falloff, and your jam strength suffers. Unfortunately, by nerfing the optimals of the ECM modules because of the over-powered nature of the Falcon, they neutered the Scorp. IMO, it only has value in a short-range fight, or in fleets where the Scorp is the primary battleship type. You'll probably never see the latter.
At short ranges, the ECM burst capability of the Scorp is truly awesome. Its rarely used. I personally feel the Scorp is the most cost effective Caldari battleship, but, given the way most players/corps/alliances fall lock-step into the conventional wisdom of how to fight this game, it will never truly reach its potential.
Short answer to the OP, increase the bonus to ECM optimal range so that you can achieve full jam strength at typical fleet sniper ranges, and it would be back as a "credible" fleet ship. Right now, its only useful for small gangs at short ranges.
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Dungheap
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.04.26 13:23:00 -
[17]
scorp had it's performance diminished by several game changes working together. scripts make you fit 2 sebo to achieve what one once did. lowering it's jam strength made it harder to shut down incoming damage. recons and eas make counter-jamming more likely, using another slot for eccm. all this reduced it's effectiveness.
it can still fit a nice armor buffer and work in RR gangs. the biggest + i see over the recons is it can fit heavy neuts, which combined with drones, give it a decent defense against tacklers.
i'd give it more lock range, or higher sensor str; either would make it more useful without overpowering it.
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Lego Maniac
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.04.26 16:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: RasaelWolf armageddon, dominix and the typhoon are all used like 10 times more than the Scorpion, why? Because they are more useful in combat, the armageddon deals heaps of damage, the dominix tanks like hell and does decent damage, and the typhoon is the most versatile BS there is, but the Scorpion, meh, it's useless. So those Bonus's would make the Scorpion as used as all of the ones i listed, and it could even put up a fight against those..
no you fool, the other tier 1 BS see more deployment than the scorp because the scorp has no carebear value and people hate sitting in a ship painted "primary"
people are so used to the idea that gank and tank is on a different level of combat than ECM that they simply can't get over the fact that they share the same space (that is, ECM ships should be just as mortal as every other ship in the mix) - it's a matter of paradigm, not usefulness
all this is completely supported by your argument that the scorp should have a bonus swapped for damage, which would be another step towards homogenizing combat styles __________________________________________________________
˄ ____________ ˄ |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.04.26 16:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Von Kroll There is nothing wrong with the Scorpion as it currently exists. The problem is that when CCP nerfed ECM again, they killed the Scorps ability to employ ECM in the fleet sniper fight. Before, you could full strength jam at an optimal that matched the range of the typical sniper fight. Now, you're in falloff, and your jam strength suffers. Unfortunately, by nerfing the optimals of the ECM modules because of the over-powered nature of the Falcon, they neutered the Scorp. IMO, it only has value in a short-range fight, or in fleets where the Scorp is the primary battleship type. You'll probably never see the latter.
At short ranges, the ECM burst capability of the Scorp is truly awesome. Its rarely used. I personally feel the Scorp is the most cost effective Caldari battleship, but, given the way most players/corps/alliances fall lock-step into the conventional wisdom of how to fight this game, it will never truly reach its potential.
Short answer to the OP, increase the bonus to ECM optimal range so that you can achieve full jam strength at typical fleet sniper ranges, and it would be back as a "credible" fleet ship. Right now, its only useful for small gangs at short ranges.
or you could just get your jamming support in closer.
perhaps ccp doesn't think it should be able to jam at sniper ranges?
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.04.26 16:48:00 -
[20]
How to fix Scorpion
- Give it 6 weapon hardpoints of the same type (6 turret or 6 missiles launchers) - no damage bonus. - Improve its scan resolution (slowest BS locking speed in game). - Take 1 mid slot and move it to a low slot - this ship should be an armor tanking ship that jams. - Increase drone bay size to 100 m^3 or even 125 m^3.
That would make the Scorpion a better option than a blackbird...
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Exploding Tukey
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Posted - 2010.04.26 17:54:00 -
[21]
Even with multispec t1 jammers, a scorp can take on almost any ship 1v1 due to lack of targeting, smartbombs will take any drones out almost instantly, and it will keep almost every ship permajammed with good enough skills and a little luck.
This is why the scorp is almost always primary target, and why every fleet is afraid of scorpions (primary target set!) and why most people don't fly one (nobody likes to be primary).
This ship is a support ship. Please keep this in mind when you are making your judgments. We dont argue that the guardian needs a dps boost? Then why should be argue about the scorpion. it's job is very clear. jump in after the fleet at 100km, jam the hell out of anything that looks like it can be useful and try not to die too fast.
a single scorpion can do so much more then any other battleship in terms of changing the tide of battle.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.04.26 18:12:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Exploding Tukey Even with multispec t1 jammers, a scorp can take on almost any ship 1v1 due to lack of targeting, smartbombs will take any drones out almost instantly, and it will keep almost every ship permajammed with good enough skills and a little luck.
This is why the scorp is almost always primary target, and why every fleet is afraid of scorpions (primary target set!) and why most people don't fly one (nobody likes to be primary).
This ship is a support ship. Please keep this in mind when you are making your judgments. We dont argue that the guardian needs a dps boost? Then why should be argue about the scorpion. it's job is very clear. jump in after the fleet at 100km, jam the hell out of anything that looks like it can be useful and try not to die too fast.
a single scorpion can do so much more then any other battleship in terms of changing the tide of battle.
A single blackbird does that job better. Scorpions are awful right now - the game's fastest dying BS
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Trader20
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Posted - 2010.04.26 18:39:00 -
[23]
Give us any bonus but ecm. Bonus to lasers, ok I'll take that, proj not my first choice, but I'll take it, rails/missiles and res% bonus, I'll take that. Seriously ccp give us any other bones except ecm (or other ewar) I don't care about back story or any of that crap give us a new bonus
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Exploding Tukey
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Posted - 2010.04.26 19:02:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Exploding Tukey on 26/04/2010 19:05:57
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Exploding Tukey Even with multispec t1 jammers, a scorp can take on almost any ship 1v1 due to lack of targeting, smartbombs will take any drones out almost instantly, and it will keep almost every ship permajammed with good enough skills and a little luck.
This is why the scorp is almost always primary target, and why every fleet is afraid of scorpions (primary target set!) and why most people don't fly one (nobody likes to be primary).
This ship is a support ship. Please keep this in mind when you are making your judgments. We dont argue that the guardian needs a dps boost? Then why should be argue about the scorpion. it's job is very clear. jump in after the fleet at 100km, jam the hell out of anything that looks like it can be useful and try not to die too fast.
a single scorpion can do so much more then any other battleship in terms of changing the tide of battle.
A single blackbird does that job better. Scorpions are awful right now - the game's fastest dying BS
Yes, your blackbird is going to do great at apoc/thron/rokh/Baddon/raven optimal range when you miss a cycle and one gets a volley or 2 on you. The scorp can be fit to take much more damage and costs a quarter of what the blackbird costs fitted. much more efficient when at 100km you really dont have much to orbit, and the time it takes to farm another 150mil for another blackbird.
All 3 bonuses make perfect sense on the ship. It is the only ship that uses ECM busts productively. It is a jamming ship that uses range to it's advantage. therefore it makes perfect sense to boost all 3 of those points.
Being able to fit 6 Large smartbombs in the high slots, or easily put on Neuts/RR on the ship makes it ideal support.
Not everything is about raw damage output and shooting at each other until one person dies.
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Vladimir Markov
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Posted - 2010.04.26 19:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Exploding Tukey Edited by: Exploding Tukey on 26/04/2010 19:05:57
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Exploding Tukey Even with multispec t1 jammers, a scorp can take on almost any ship 1v1 due to lack of targeting, smartbombs will take any drones out almost instantly, and it will keep almost every ship permajammed with good enough skills and a little luck.
This is why the scorp is almost always primary target, and why every fleet is afraid of scorpions (primary target set!) and why most people don't fly one (nobody likes to be primary).
This ship is a support ship. Please keep this in mind when you are making your judgments. We dont argue that the guardian needs a dps boost? Then why should be argue about the scorpion. it's job is very clear. jump in after the fleet at 100km, jam the hell out of anything that looks like it can be useful and try not to die too fast.
a single scorpion can do so much more then any other battleship in terms of changing the tide of battle.
A single blackbird does that job better. Scorpions are awful right now - the game's fastest dying BS
Yes, your blackbird is going to do great at apoc/thron/rokh/Baddon/raven optimal range when you miss a cycle and one gets a volley or 2 on you. The scorp can be fit to take much more damage and costs a quarter of what the blackbird costs fitted. much more efficient when at 100km you really dont have much to orbit, and the time it takes to farm another 150mil for another blackbird.
All 3 bonuses make perfect sense on the ship. It is the only ship that uses ECM busts productively. It is a jamming ship that uses range to it's advantage. therefore it makes perfect sense to boost all 3 of those points.
Being able to fit 6 Large smartbombs in the high slots, or easily put on Neuts/RR on the ship makes it ideal support.
Not everything is about raw damage output and shooting at each other until one person dies.
I think you mean the Falcon or Rook
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Exploding Tukey
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Posted - 2010.04.26 19:28:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Exploding Tukey on 26/04/2010 19:28:41
Originally by: Vladimir Markov
Originally by: Exploding Tukey Edited by: Exploding Tukey on 26/04/2010 19:05:57
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Exploding Tukey Even with multispec t1 jammers, a scorp can take on almost any ship 1v1 due to lack of targeting, smartbombs will take any drones out almost instantly, and it will keep almost every ship permajammed with good enough skills and a little luck.
This is why the scorp is almost always primary target, and why every fleet is afraid of scorpions (primary target set!) and why most people don't fly one (nobody likes to be primary).
This ship is a support ship. Please keep this in mind when you are making your judgments. We dont argue that the guardian needs a dps boost? Then why should be argue about the scorpion. it's job is very clear. jump in after the fleet at 100km, jam the hell out of anything that looks like it can be useful and try not to die too fast.
a single scorpion can do so much more then any other battleship in terms of changing the tide of battle.
A single blackbird does that job better. Scorpions are awful right now - the game's fastest dying BS
Yes, your blackbird is going to do great at apoc/thron/rokh/Baddon/raven optimal range when you miss a cycle and one gets a volley or 2 on you. The scorp can be fit to take much more damage and costs a quarter of what the blackbird costs fitted. much more efficient when at 100km you really dont have much to orbit, and the time it takes to farm another 150mil for another blackbird.
All 3 bonuses make perfect sense on the ship. It is the only ship that uses ECM busts productively. It is a jamming ship that uses range to it's advantage. therefore it makes perfect sense to boost all 3 of those points.
Being able to fit 6 Large smartbombs in the high slots, or easily put on Neuts/RR on the ship makes it ideal support.
Not everything is about raw damage output and shooting at each other until one person dies.
I think you mean the Falcon or Rook
Sorry. Coffee buff wore off. Rook.
Blackbird is only good for jamming cruisers and frigs.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2010.04.26 19:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
or you could just get your jamming support in closer.
perhaps ccp doesn't think it should be able to jam at sniper ranges?
That wasn't some thinly-veiled whine about the Falcon nerf. In a fleet fight, the Scorpions are the first primary--using them at short range is impossible these days. Instead of merely changing the Falcons jam range bonus, they dropped it and the optimal of the jammer modules. This combination neutered the Scorp. If CCP did it on purpose so you couldn't jam at sniper range, that's fine. But, until you can, the Scorpion ceases to be a credible fleet ship.
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