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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.04.29 00:20:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mutnin
Originally by: Avoida
You realize that if the people who put down the first extractors can't return to resurvey, they quickly run out of materials and thus have zero effect any any extraction/production after that point?
Can more than one person set up PI stuff on the same planet? I haven't messed with it much, but I was under the impression that each planet only had so much resources and it was first come first serve, like moons are. (except u can blow up the moon pos)
Well, you should research more, kind of ?
As it is now, you immediately cut some part of his pie. The more people, the smaller part for each.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.04.29 00:26:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dan O'Connor Tl;dr version -
OP believes resources of planets will only be useful in 0.0 space as it currently is the case with moons.
He also believes that "evil alliances" get that 0.0 space in some dubious way. Most probably by bribing CCP with cash.
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scunner funk
Minmatar Connoisseurs Of Hallucination
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Posted - 2010.04.29 01:43:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Di Mulle
He also believes that "evil alliances" get that 0.0 space in some dubious way. Most probably by bribing CCP with cash.
You'd be amazed what a few cases of beer and a couple of hookers can buy you in Iceland.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.04.29 02:33:00 -
[34]
The OP does have point other than just ISK you know. It's about participation and access to content. Lots of players will not bother with the new content if the new content isn't worth their time doing.
The issue of six months average age still exists, and has for quite a while. Much of what I hear is an aversion not only to risk but an aversion to effort. These players are looking for something relaxing to do, they want to play the game, not live the game. Yeah yeah, go back to wow ad nausea, get back under the rock.
Casual players need more to do than just mine or run missions if they are to be kept interested. Yes there's lots of other content, exploration, they can trade, etc. But they look daunting to a six month old who has to make a choice between a month training in this direction or a month in that direction, when they already need to be training a month in some other direction so they can PVP. "It's easier to quit playing" ... This should not be the case.
One of the design goals of PI appears to have been accessibility to the content, at these numbers, that design goal has not been met.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Capt Fossil
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.29 02:38:00 -
[35]
Originally by: scunner funkYou'd be amazed what a few cases of beer and a couple of hookers can buy you in Iceland.[/quote
The intelligence sevices of the world have been aware of this for century's...... are you guys outsourcing your intel to the Vatican?
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.04.29 02:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
One of the design goals of PI appears to have been accessibility to the content, at these numbers, that design goal has not been met.
It's accessible to everyone, it's met it's accessibility design goal. What are you going on about exactly?
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
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Jobby
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.04.29 03:00:00 -
[37]
Luckily, anyone can go to 0.0.
See, it's not that bad, really.
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Midori Tsu
Broski Reloaded
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Posted - 2010.04.29 03:19:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jobby Luckily, anyone can go to 0.0.
See, it's not that bad, really.
Sure, anyone can go to 0.0. But not everyone can survive in 0.0 and make a profit.
Looking at these numbers makes me a bit not care about PI even more.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.04.29 03:55:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Being able to produce something faster does not make it cheaper to produce.
Depending on who's doing the numbers, time IS money.
It's fairly common in SI circles to measure production slot in isk/hr per slot to deduce its potential for profits. Therefore, it's no less for PI where all the direct cost is static for anywhere. On per player basis, with the OP's figure, we might be looking at a future where NPC goods price is directly controlled by the output from low, null and wh planets. In other words, CCP flipped the sourcing.
The wildcard for the above will be how many high sec players that are willing to run their planets regardless of how profitable such a venture is.
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Jeneroux
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.29 05:01:00 -
[40]
If it is not profitable in high sec.. then why would high sec people care at all? Why have this content there if profitability in nul sec undermines high sec opportunity? It would be irrelevant content to significant percentage of Eve population.
not reasonable conclusion.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.04.29 05:13:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Jeneroux If it is not profitable in high sec.. then why would high sec people care at all? Why have this content there if profitability in nul sec undermines high sec opportunity? It would be irrelevant content to significant percentage of Eve population.
not reasonable conclusion.
Walking in stations will also likely not be profitable in high sec. Is this also irrelevant content? (Okay bad argument, but seriously I'm sure some people will enjoy it regardless of how irrelevant it is just like PI)
How about this, PI in high sec is profitable in exchange for people being forced out of NPC corps and wardec dodging being deemed an exploit? Now people can dec and take away the planet stuff so that risk balances the reward, or is that not what you wanted?
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2010.04.29 05:17:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy The OP does have point other than just ISK you know. It's about participation and access to content. Lots of players will not bother with the new content if the new content isn't worth their time doing.
The issue of six months average age still exists, and has for quite a while. Much of what I hear is an aversion not only to risk but an aversion to effort. These players are looking for something relaxing to do, they want to play the game, not live the game. Yeah yeah, go back to wow ad nausea, get back under the rock.
Casual players need more to do than just mine or run missions if they are to be kept interested. Yes there's lots of other content, exploration, they can trade, etc. But they look daunting to a six month old who has to make a choice between a month training in this direction or a month in that direction, when they already need to be training a month in some other direction so they can PVP. "It's easier to quit playing" ... This should not be the case.
One of the design goals of PI appears to have been accessibility to the content, at these numbers, that design goal has not been met.
i agree, atm PI seem to me as a sort of "missed opportunity", the idea is great but the design/implementation imo dont explore all its possibilities
i was expeting something more on the management side, with different routes to develope your "small colony" (sort of sim city in space) while in reality it end up pudding down a couple of harvesters or a small production line and come back every couple of hours or days to collect and sell.
in this state i think it will be quite nice to have for 0.0 as it makes nullsec more self sufficent (and i'm all about it) bot for the more casual players i doubt there will be much to do with it as the marked will probably get flooded soon enought and i doubt the gain will be worth vs the time spent
CCP is doing a good job with the small time they are developing it but as said... imo is a bit of a missed opportunity to expand eve to another level and to appeal different players.
btw for the planet in "conquered space" i think the original idea was to use dust to handle that, you get sov in a system, then you beam down your dust squad to raze/conquer the existing facilities
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.04.29 05:42:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Gorefacer
It's accessible to everyone, it's met it's accessibility design goal. What are you going on about exactly?
"Lots of players will not bother with the new content if the new content isn't worth their time doing."
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.29 05:44:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Mutnin
And there can be as many people on a planet at the same time as they want to be... even each and every EVE pilot if you could muster that kind of a flashmob. Heh.
actualy right now theres a hardcap on planet population on SiSi, if the planet goes over the hardcap everyone on Sisi looses access to that planet.
but then with that level of extraction with the current seed the planet would be worthless in a couple of hours
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Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.29 05:50:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Mutnin
And there can be as many people on a planet at the same time as they want to be... even each and every EVE pilot if you could muster that kind of a flashmob. Heh.
actualy right now theres a hardcap on planet population on SiSi, if the planet goes over the hardcap everyone on Sisi looses access to that planet.
but then with that level of extraction with the current seed the planet would be worthless in a couple of hours
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Gorefacer
It's accessible to everyone, it's met it's accessibility design goal. What are you going on about exactly?
"Lots of players will not bother with the new content if the new content isn't worth their time doing."
and that, in a nutshell, is all you need to know about PI
and at this point all we can realy debate about it.
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Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.04.29 05:53:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 29/04/2010 05:55:14
Originally by: Midori Tsu Sure, anyone can go to 0.0. But not everyone can survive in 0.0 and make a profit.
Looking at these numbers makes me a bit not care about PI even more.
Well Boo Hoo, be a whiner.
Me and my corp of only some 10 less than year old players went into Syndicate while we were still without almost any PvP experience nor connections. We survived and even made profits.
PI will be easily done by anyone with a blockade runner and enough intelligence to type in dotlan url to find 0.0 systems without sov. Less than half of 0.0 non-NPC systems are ripe for picking.
Originally by: Steve Thomas and that, in a nutshell, is all you need to know about PI
and at this point all we can realy debate about it.
The reason they're hitting that user limit has nothing to do with everyone and their dog on SiSi using FD- planets.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.29 05:58:00 -
[47]
Good. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.29 06:01:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 29/04/2010 06:03:09
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 29/04/2010 05:55:14
Originally by: Midori Tsu .
Originally by: Steve Thomas and that, in a nutshell, is all you need to know about PI
and at this point all we can realy debate about it.
The reason they're hitting that user limit has nothing to do with everyone and their dog on SiSi using FD- planets.
Yes, we know that, they keep telling us to move elsewhere to get planet poo. my point was that at the rate that I saw before I lost access to the two I had there the planet would be flat worthless within a few hours with the current depletion seed they have running.
incidentaly if they tie in thoes sov level mechanics into it theres another reason for people not liveing in 0-0 to move on down and plant a flag
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Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.29 06:11:00 -
[49]
oh and one thing people seem to be foregeting about all of this
if your running processes to feed your Possystem-Sovsystem builds. . . . your not makeing fuel
if your makeing fuel your not makine pos structures because of all the Extractors you have to offline for the Freaking subcombines you will need to do to build structures.
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Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.29 06:28:00 -
[50]
So the picture this thread give is:
- high sec: lots of people try PI, discover it is not profitable and stop caring for the colony, the planet get overcrowded by abandoned colonies and all the colonies stop working;
- 0.0: people that think the territory under their control could change hands will not put down PI colonies, if they build colonies and lose sovereignty the colony stop functioning but is still on planet, so slow buildup of abandoned colonies till the point where all the colonies stop working;
- NPC 0.0 and normalspace 0.0 without soveregnity: no colonies;
- Low sec: more profit than high sec, less people building colonies so slower buildup. Probably the best balance there. Serious risk while gathering the stuff as the PI interface reduce noticeably you awareness of what is happening in system. The system are relatively few (compared to 0.0) so it is doubtful they will provide all the resources needed in EVE;
- Wormhole 0.0: similar to low sec with the added problem of unstable logistic. If the planets have a resource modifier based on the level of the WH system it will add further problems. Still a good source of PI stuff.
Taking all the above in consideration we really need dust with some rules allowing people to wardec/attack PI structures in high sec.
I don't like the idea of limiting content but probably allowing the construction of colonies only to members of player corps would be necessary. But that will open a new can of worms about what will happen when a player leave a corporation.
So probably a different mechanic for wardecs on planets (separated from space wardecs) will be the best thing.
In alternative it will require a way to do terrorist and sabotage operations for Dust players even in high sec without overwhelming police intervention.
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Omira Tan
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Posted - 2010.04.29 06:53:00 -
[51]
Two small questions:
1) If you have to train for PI, and the skillbooks aren't even out yet, then how come ppl have tested in on SiSi already?
2) When the day comes, you don't have to rush to a planet to plant something of yours there, right? Everyone can put stuff on a planet, and the planet won't be depleted, right?
Thanks! |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.04.29 07:10:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 29/04/2010 07:12:14
Originally by: Sturmwolke It's fairly common in SI circles to measure production slot in isk/hr per slot to deduce its potential for profits. Therefore, it's no less for PI where all the direct cost is static for anywhere. On per player basis, with the OP's figure, we might be looking at a future where NPC goods price is directly controlled by the output from low, null and wh planets. In other words, CCP flipped the sourcing.
ISK/hr tells you the relative potential for profits, so you know what will make you money the fastest taking production rate into account. However, this does not change the profitability of the item itself. If you are making something and I am making the same thing, and our production costs are the same, my being able to make it 10 times faster does not mean I can sell it for one tenth of the price and still profit. At worst, I can reduce the price to the point where my profit/hr is good and yours isn't, but you will still profit. And since it is more or less passive ISK, you will probably still use it to some degree. -
I wish I was a two foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Trathen
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.29 07:22:00 -
[53]
I... fail to see the problem.
Not to mention nothing in SiSi is set in stone, so I might as well create a thread flailing my arms about how my Magic 8-Ball said "Outlook not so good" when I asked it about PI. I'd wager there is a good chance that training the proper skills will let you break ever so slightly above even in high-sec - which would make sense since we don't want everyone and their uncle doing PI in high-sec.
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.29 07:29:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Amida Ta
TERROR!!!
You know that episode of the simpsons where they're all playing poker and lenny calls homer slow and then hours later... you know what... forget it.
Come to 0.0, it's fun, more so when you're dieing in a blaze of stupidity... like I do :D --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Blade Murderhorn
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.04.29 08:30:00 -
[55]
NPC Buy orders dammit! that will be the way that money is made in highsec surley???
it would make sence that there will be a hard price floor that the NPC stations are willing to buy at like they do now. if players want the goods they will need to put in a buy order that is greater than the NPC orders,
im sure this is how it will work,
I dont for a second think that it will ever be more profitable in highsec than null sec (when it comes to industry) afterall highsec has lvl4 missions that pile in the cash for quite low risk.... (all be it boring...)
Cheers Blade ------------------------------------------- "The Master at being Podded...." Maby one day Revenge! |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.04.29 08:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Crumplecorn However, this does not change the profitability of the item itself. If you are making something and I am making the same thing, and our production costs are the same, my being able to make it 10 times faster does not mean I can sell it for one tenth of the price and still profit. At worst, I can reduce the price to the point where my profit/hr is good and yours isn't, but you will still profit. And since it is more or less passive ISK, you will probably still use it to some degree.
That's more or less a round about way of explaining how market flooding occurs. It lowers the profit per item, allowing those players with the larger volume scale to make decent absolute profit for the (passive) effort. It will crowd out the small scale players, at least those that gives a damn about worthwhile profits.
Time is still money, regardless of how you're spinning it |
Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.04.29 08:35:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Omira Tan Two small questions: Thanks!
1 - On Sisi, everyone has all PI skills at lvl 5.
2 - Resources move, requiring one to place down new extractors. They move faster the more they are harvested. Placing down a new extractor costs ISK.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.04.29 08:48:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Sturmwolke That's more or less a round about way of explaining how market flooding occurs. It lowers the profit per item, allowing those players with the larger volume scale to make decent absolute profit for the (passive) effort. It will crowd out the small scale players, at least those that gives a damn about worthwhile profits.
Yes, but it will not, contrary to what the OP states, allow 0.0 players to undercut the production cost of highsec players by 50% or more. -
I wish I was a two foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.04.29 09:02:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Yes, but it will not, contrary to what the OP states, allow 0.0 players to undercut the production cost of highsec players by 50% or more.
Poor choice of concept wording perhaps, he could be a German native. |
Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.04.29 09:10:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
However, this does not change the profitability of the item itself. If you are making something and I am making the same thing, and our production costs are the same, my being able to make it 10 times faster does not mean I can sell it for one tenth of the price and still profit.
Less population and higher resource density. Null players will not have to deal with resource map changes as drastically as crowded high sec. First because there are fewer players in Null, and secondly and more obviously, higher overall density means the need to move extractors is less. Each extractor placement costs ISK.
The Processor to Extractor ratio in Null is significantly better. The extractor cost per unit of raw materials in Null will be significantly less. Production costs are not the same. Production output, on a per player basis, is not the same.
The supply side heavily favors null sec, null also will create most of the demand. If Null supply can not meet demand, then high sec will have a market, but at much greater cost than Null. Thus creating incentive in Null to over supply.
If Null supply is greater than Null demand, then high sec will be the dumping ground at a cost less than high sec cost.
Removing the extractor cost would bring better balance to the ratios. In this way at least production costs would then be the same, the difference then would be volume.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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