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Flitterby
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Posted - 2010.04.29 23:07:00 -
[1]
Assault Frigates are seen as weak, largely because they're lacking a fourth bonus that other T2 ships enjoy. I believe that giving all Assault Frigs a bonus of +20% max capacitor capacity per AF level would be a good way to boost the ship class. Reasoning:
1. Improves resistance to neuts, which are the bane of all frigates.
2. Doesn't step on toes of inties by being a direct speed boost. Sure you could perma-run a MWD, but you'd still have huge signature.
3. Versatile. You could fit a neut rather than a nos in the utility high for taking out frigs (even without boosted tracking). Active tank. More ewar. Increased versatility is good because it reduces predictability of fits.
4. Big boost to Amarr AF (due to laser cap use), which are currently seen as the weakest. Small boost to Ishkur, Jag, and Wolf, which are currently seen as the strongest.
5. Makes a reason to get AF V. Everyone likes Recon V because it gives a huge boost, so model AF in the same way.
6. Would allow long warps even with MWD fitted!
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Rakshan
Gallente Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.04.29 23:19:00 -
[2]
ew..and..ew...
imo AF's need an afterburner speed bonus. MWD is useless and will get you killed more often than saving you.
and even IF you did increase your cap...improving resistance to neuts? right. you will still be drained dry in a max of 2 cycles so that bonus makes no sense.
AF's are already versatile an AB bonus would just make them more viable for small gang stuff..as is right now i would rather fly a T1 frig because its cheap as hell
and with the AB bonus you would still have incentive to get AF V. more so than a cap bonus.
warps would never be an issue if you fit an AB like a sane person. Life is Pain.....Get over it!!!! |
Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.04.29 23:26:00 -
[3]
20% less grid/cpu cost for fitting medium turrets per level?
Originally by: CCP Shadow Have you ever wished you could have prevented a train wreck before it actually happened? I need to stop this one before the craziness begins.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.04.29 23:39:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Rakshan ew..and..ew...
imo AF's need an afterburner speed bonus. MWD is useless and will get you killed more often than saving you.
and even IF you did increase your cap...improving resistance to neuts? right. you will still be drained dry in a max of 2 cycles so that bonus makes no sense.
AF's are already versatile an AB bonus would just make them more viable for small gang stuff..as is right now i would rather fly a T1 frig because its cheap as hell
and with the AB bonus you would still have incentive to get AF V. more so than a cap bonus.
warps would never be an issue if you fit an AB like a sane person.
You do realise they tried an AB bonus? All that happened was it made the Iskkur and Jaguar hideously OP and left the rest still "meh". It caused way more problems than it solved. _________________________________
Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.04.30 01:05:00 -
[5]
Doubling the cap will still leave AF susceptible to medium and heavy nuets. It doesn't fix things. A nuet resistance or immunity would be worth talking about. Increase capacitor by 25% so you can fit a MWD AND an active tank if so desired. My two cents.
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar The Hurt Locker Sandbox Bullies
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Posted - 2010.04.30 01:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 30/04/2010 01:13:04
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Doubling the cap will still leave AF susceptible to medium and heavy nuets. It doesn't fix things. A nuet resistance or immunity would be worth talking about. Increase capacitor by 25% so you can fit a MWD AND an active tank if so desired. My two cents.
introducing a new fixed bonus will make AFs in line with other shiptypes:
99.99% reduction in CPU and powergrid usage of doomsday devices.
/thread __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
NoNah
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Posted - 2010.04.30 01:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 30/04/2010 01:13:04
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Doubling the cap will still leave AF susceptible to medium and heavy nuets. It doesn't fix things. A nuet resistance or immunity would be worth talking about. Increase capacitor by 25% so you can fit a MWD AND an active tank if so desired. My two cents.
introducing a new fixed bonus will make AFs in line with other shiptypes:
99.99% reduction in CPU and powergrid usage of doomsday devices.
/thread
Nice save with the edit. ;) Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 507523
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Flitterby
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Posted - 2010.04.30 01:31:00 -
[8]
Seriously though, I think more cap (and therefore, cap regen) would give AF quite a bit of versatility. If +20%/level isn't *enough*, then make it +50% or whatever. Give them infinite cap! (Probably not.)
The point is, it would be unique, help them resist neuts (unlike all other frigates), and use all sorts of interesting active modules.
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Lego Maniac
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.04.30 02:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Flitterby 4. Big boost to Amarr AF (due to laser cap use)
you realize out of the two Amarr assault frigs, only one uses lasers right? you're asking for a boost to one ship, and it won't even be significant if you are hit with a heavy neut
IMO you can't fix all AFs with a blanket boost like the one you're suggesting, each one needs different things
- the enyo: needs to have its optimal bonus swapped for a falloff bonus (which is actually inherent to the incursus hull), but this has more to do with fixing blasters overall
- the ishkur: the bonuses are more or less fine and serve it pretty well, but personally I'd like to see it swapping the hybrid bonuses so that it is more drone oriented; i.e. instead of an optimal bonus have 10% drone damage and hitpoints per AF skill level (this might be too much, maybe 5%?), instead of the frig skill giving 5% damage bonus per level, change it to 5mbit/sec to bandwidth so that it can field a full flight of mediums, and increase the bay bonus to 10m3 per level
- the retribution: PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MOVE THE NON-TURRET UTILITY HIGH DOWN TO MID!! this addresses the change OP had in mind since it allows for a cap injector in addition to a propulsion mod, or any combination of whatever two mids are desired if you eschew an injector
- the vengeance: fix lolkets (I'm not holding my breath) - this would make the vengeance a viable, active tanked soloer in its own right as suggested by its AF skill bonuses
- the hawk: a shield boosted frigate sized missile sniper? no, no... change the boost amount to a 5% launcher ROF bonus (it makes sense that since the harpy is pint-sized eagle, the hawk should be a mini cerb), and fix lolkets
- the harpy: I honestly don't know about this one, its role is pretty well defined but I just don't see people flying this; fix blasters and I bet its role will be expanded
- the jaguar and wolf: just simply need to trade their optimal and falloff bonuses so that their roles will be more well defined as an AC ship and artillery ship, instead of the current situation in which both do the same thing
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Lt Angus
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.04.30 04:09:00 -
[10]
+20% enemy locktime per level please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar The Hurt Locker Sandbox Bullies
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Posted - 2010.04.30 04:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 30/04/2010 01:13:04
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Doubling the cap will still leave AF susceptible to medium and heavy nuets. It doesn't fix things. A nuet resistance or immunity would be worth talking about. Increase capacitor by 25% so you can fit a MWD AND an active tank if so desired. My two cents.
introducing a new fixed bonus will make AFs in line with other shiptypes:
99.99% reduction in CPU and powergrid usage of doomsday devices.
/thread
Nice save with the edit. ;)
Thank you. Right after editing however I wondered wether an AF could hold enough fuel needed for a doomsday device.
Then I wondered whether or not doomsdays actually use fuel.
Then I decided I didn't care and went off to do something else __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.30 05:03:00 -
[12]
Just what my jag needs. Moar cap.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!
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Ashira Twilight
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Posted - 2010.04.30 05:35:00 -
[13]
"Just" give them jumpdrives. I bet they'd be used a bit more, and nobody would complain about their combat effectiveness(except the hawk and the amarr AFs which would still be crap).
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RasaelWolf
Caldari Easy Co. Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.04.30 07:54:00 -
[14]
Edited by: RasaelWolf on 30/04/2010 07:54:11
Originally by: Lego Maniac
Originally by: Flitterby 4. Big boost to Amarr AF (due to laser cap use)
you realize out of the two Amarr assault frigs, only one uses lasers right? you're asking for a boost to one ship, and it won't even be significant if you are hit with a heavy neut
IMO you can't fix all AFs with a blanket boost like the one you're suggesting, each one needs different things
the ishkur: the bonuses are more or less fine and serve it pretty well, but personally I'd like to see it swapping the hybrid bonuses so that it is more drone oriented; i.e. instead of an optimal bonus have 10% drone damage and hitpoints per AF skill level (this might be too much, maybe 5%?), instead of the frig skill giving 5% damage bonus per level, change it to 5mbit/sec to bandwidth so that it can field a full flight of mediums, and increase the bay bonus to 10m3 per level
Swap the drone bay bonus to even moar blaster damage, and give it a dronebay of 50m3 from the start ^^
---------------------------------------- "The more we learn, the less we care" ---------------------------------------- |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.04.30 08:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lego Maniac IMO you can't fix all AFs with a blanket boost like the one you're suggesting, each one needs different things
Yeah. Any blanket change just makes the good AFs better without fixing the bad ones, further emphasising the intra-class imbalance.
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.30 08:59:00 -
[16]
give them old bomber bonuses of fitting big guns with bonus to hit small targets and regular cloak with no recalibration
Originally by: CCP Manifest Imploding servers are not a part of our business model.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.30 09:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Gypsio III Yeah. Any blanket change just makes the good AFs better without fixing the bad ones, further emphasising the intra-class imbalance.
Quite right. I would advise the OP to read the relevant threads in Assembly Hall and F&I forum to get an idea of what might be required to make AFs valuable and to see the arguments for/against practically all possible permutations.
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olzi
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.04.30 09:05:00 -
[18]
How about instead of a direct capacitor boost, you give them a dedicated cargo bay for small capacitor booster charges.
Maybe even throw in a cap booster efficiency bonus per assault ship level.
This way you still have to fit a cap booster, so it's not as drastic of a boost.
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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium Z.E.R.G
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Posted - 2010.04.30 09:13:00 -
[19]
Horrible. ________
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Nora Rage
Heroes. Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.04.30 10:49:00 -
[20]
Hows about an EHP boost from the 9k-11k range to more approaching the 20k range? Leave em AB slow and with 150-250dps but able to withstand more punishment so they are more useful in the heavy tackler role. Also they would see more solo use as a decent fit should give a T1 cruiser a run for its money.
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Battlingbean
Heaven's Gate
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Posted - 2010.04.30 10:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lego Maniac
the harpy: I honestly don't know about this one, its role is pretty well defined but I just don't see people flying this; fix blasters and I bet its role will be expanded
I'd like to see the harpy get 5% shield resists. Would be in line with Caldari hybrid line up.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.30 10:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nora Rage Hows about an EHP boost from the 9k-11k range to more approaching the 20k range? Leave em AB slow and with 150-250dps but able to withstand more punishment so they are more useful in the heavy tackler role. Also they would see more solo use as a decent fit should give a T1 cruiser a run for its money.
You would have to go through them one by one to balance them or the Jaguar will be the only one flown due to a truly massive passive shield tank. Might as well spend the time needed cooking up individual tweaks so that they all have a place.
The uniform bonus is almost impossible to do without messing the class up even more than it is except if the bonus is completely unrelated to combat performance (in which case you maintain current status quo).
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Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2010.04.30 11:52:00 -
[23]
How about 10% reduced effectiveness of enemy webs/level?
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Deva Blackfire
Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.04.30 12:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Arec Bardwin How about 10% reduced effectiveness of enemy webs/level?
How about you read this line and understand it:
Quote: The uniform bonus is almost impossible to do without messing the class up even more than it is except if the bonus is completely unrelated to combat performance (in which case you maintain current status quo).
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.04.30 12:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Arec Bardwin How about 10% reduced effectiveness of enemy webs/level?
Which part of the following is giving you difficulty?
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Lego Maniac IMO you can't fix all AFs with a blanket boost like the one you're suggesting, each one needs different things
Yeah. Any blanket change just makes the good AFs better without fixing the bad ones, further emphasising the intra-class imbalance.
Quite right. I would advise the OP to read the relevant threads in Assembly Hall and F&I forum to get an idea of what might be required to make AFs valuable and to see the arguments for/against practically all possible permutations.
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Aliraxi
Gallente Cow Boys From HeII The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.04.30 12:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Battlingbean
Originally by: Lego Maniac
the harpy: I honestly don't know about this one, its role is pretty well defined but I just don't see people flying this; fix blasters and I bet its role will be expanded
I'd like to see the harpy get 5% shield resists. Would be in line with Caldari hybrid line up.
Mah Harpy needz moar tank
+1.
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Valea Silpha
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.04.30 12:49:00 -
[27]
I like the idea of dumping some more EHP on them. Least then you could actually use them like small fast HACs instead of being like the parents-basement dwelling 20something unshaven big brother to frigates fourteen year old.
If CCP would EVER bother giving us a frigate sized logistics platform (I'm looking at you t3 frigs) then we'd really be on to something.
For what its worth... I think AFs should get both a blanket bonus change and then specific tweaks. Strip out the non-functioning resist bonus, change it to a functioning HP per level bonus.
Naturally you'd have to tweak the jag to make it less passive tanky, but that shouldn't be too hard. Ideally you just drop the grid a bit, so that a new jag with say a hardener or two has the same HP as a medium extender one had before. So the jag stays the same and everything else gets closer to its survivability.
Next, fix rockets. Cuz its not funny when fitting ACs to your retribution gives better range and damage.
Enyo gets the deimos paint job (red is so last year).
Retribution EITHER gets its utility high changed to a mid OR it gets another turret. I don't mind if its gang only, but it should be the best frigate damage dealer out there if it is. Either way it should loose its laser cap bonus and changed to a straight cap bonus so you can active tank or MWD if you like.
Finally, the wolf and jag trade bonuses and that should do it.
Not perfect, but finally I'd look at some other AFs tbh.
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VanNostrum
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Posted - 2010.04.30 13:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Valea Silpha Finally, the wolf and jag trade bonuses and that should do it.
hmmm, No.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.04.30 13:38:00 -
[29]
To fix AFs: 1) Increase their speed and agility to match that of their T1 counterparts. As it stands, an Enyo with an mwd and a 200mm plate does 2.1 km/s before heat and aligns in 7.2 s; this compares horribly to the Incursus with the same plate (2.7 km/s, 5.3s align).
2) Add individual 4th bonuses and tweak the fitting room on the various ships. The aim here should be to slightly boost the good ones (which are, in the broader context of the game, no more than OK-ish), to significantly boost the mediocre ones, and to massively boost (or completely re-work) the Hawk and the Retribution because, well, lawl. My preferred adjustments:
Harpy: Small increase in PG (maybe +5 or so). Fourth bonus should be 5% shield resists/level. Hawk: Damage bonus turned into the Kessie's 10%/level for kinetic missiles, 5%/level for other missiles. Shield boost bonus turned into 5% shield resists/level. Big increase in PG (+15-20 units) and CPU (+30-40 units). Fourth bonus should be the Nighthawks 5%/level bonus to explosion velocity.
Enyo: Drop the utility high for a midslot, give it a second 5%/level damage bonus, give its capacitor a little buff. It's actually surprisingly non-terrible on paper in its current incarnation, if you can overlook the lack of a web. Ishkur: Don't know. Very hard to come up with a fourth bonus that would be useful but not lol-OP. Mayyyyyyyybe give it 5%/level to drone damage/HP but remove one high slot/turret, but I'm not sure.
Wolf: Give it a tracking bonus, a lot more CPU, and drop the utility high for a mid. Jag: Give it a tracking bonus. The end. The optimal bonus is kind of useless, but some people do use it, and eh, this ship's probably the best of the bunch already.
Vengeance: Swap its damage bonus for that of the Inquisitor (10%/level to EM missiles, 5%/level to everything else). Make its fourth bonus 5%/level extra explosion velocity or a second damage bonus. Retribution: Drop one high to a mid, maybe cut one low for a third mid as well. If it goes 4/3/4, drop the optimal bonus for a second 5%/level damage bonus; if it only gets two mids, keep the optimal bonus. Either way, 5% armor resists/level as the fourth bonus.
3) Ceterum censeo, Dramiel esse delendam
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.04.30 13:53:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 30/04/2010 13:53:25
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Wolf: Give it a tracking bonus, a lot more CPU, and drop the utility high for a mid. Jag: Give it a tracking bonus. The end. The optimal bonus is kind of useless, but some people do use it, and eh, this ship's probably the best of the bunch already.
A faster, more agile Wolf w/ a tracking bonus would be fine as is. I like the small nuet I can put on the ship too.
If you made these changes to AFs then I would recommend adding T2 resists to interceptors. The combat inties at least would appreciate that.
Finally, blanket bonuses to T2 frigates is nothing new. Interceptors? Covert Ops? Stealth bombers? They all have them. The trick is to find the right one.
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