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Rene Fullchest
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
43
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Posted - 2012.07.10 14:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.
Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"
I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.
I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you? |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
217
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Posted - 2012.07.10 14:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.
Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"
I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.
I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?
I say crying about people crying about fair fights is the peak lamentation of losers. I am the Kingpin of the Crime and Punishment forum.
I am the rightful heir to the CSM 8 throne.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8480
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Posted - 2012.07.10 14:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Standard EVE sayings apply:
If you're in a fair fight, you're doing it wrong. If you find yourself in a fair fight, it's because the other guy's reinforcements haven't arrived yet. There are plenty of 1v1:s to be had GÇö you just have to kill the other 9 people first. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Dusenman
Krait Corp Fidelas Constans
9
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Standard EVE sayings apply:
If you're in a fair fight, you're doing it wrong. If you find yourself in a fair fight, it's because the other guy's reinforcements haven't arrived yet. There are plenty of 1v1:s to be had GÇö you just have to kill the other 9 people first.
This sounds about right. GM Homonoia: In other words; feel free to use the tactic, but don't be an utter and total ***. |
Nirnias Stirrum
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
217
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Learn to kite. |
Cebraio
Starfire Oasis
153
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Posting in a stealth CFC vs SOCO thread. |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
114
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
You have the same resources available as them. Anything they do/bring is something you could've done/brought yourself. Deal with it.
That said, a thousand donges in the ear to those who dishono(u)r 1v1s. |
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
529
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
All's fair in love and war. |
Effect One
Selective Hearing Nearly Feared
28
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you think you're in a fair fight in this game, you're doing it wrong and are about to be ****** in the rear end. |
stoicfaux
1231
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you want a 'fair' fight, then you want a duel or tournament where both parties agree upon the rules of engagement. So set one up.
And, yes, the people who complain about fair fights, fighting honorably, mano y mano, "fight my troops on the field battle instead of using financial trickery," etc., tend to be the losers, aka the ones who do not write the history books, the law, or the code of honor.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Rene Fullchest
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
43
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:Posting in a stealth CFC vs SOCO thread.
Nothing stealth about it, sir.
That said, that only applies to my current situation. I'm sure that others, not involved in the present campaign, have heard the same thing.
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Karl Planck
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
181
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
There is a lot of hate over this and a lot of HTFU. In all honesty, blobbing, overshipping, falcon alting and the like are legitimate styles of play. However, they playstyle and the environment it creates is BORING AS F*CK for a lot of ppl.
IMO, unless you are fighting over something (sov, resources, w/e), constantly overshipping and blobbing leads to nap fests. A great deal of the "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?" is from people trying to create an environment of constant skirmishes rather than crushing your opponent and breaking their spirit.
However, OP is correct in that crying about fair fights is pointless. You just note you opponents tactics and move on, (which in the case of overshipping and outnumbering usually leads to blueballing each other ) To all everyone concerned over the fairness involving the H/O disqualification https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=113351&find=unread |
Signal11th
600
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
I never bemoan the fact that if people fight they have to expect to lose terribly if the fleet is 3x the size. Why should your foe turn up in equal ships? He/She is there to win not make friends.
The only thing that annoys me is the posters that go on about some mega victory and then you look at the killboard and there is 3x fleet numbers.
I don't expect the enemy to fight "fair" I wouldn;t expect him/her to as they shouldn't expect me to. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Aareya
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
6
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sometimes you start with equal numbers, but your titan jumps instead of bridges. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
487
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Standard EVE sayings apply:
If you're in a fair fight, you're doing it wrong. If you find yourself in a fair fight, it's because the other guy's reinforcements haven't arrived yet. There are plenty of 1v1:s to be had GÇö you just have to kill the other 9 people first.
So much this brb |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness
183
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Like what was said above; fly Winmatar. Heads you win, tails you run away. |
Quaaid
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
45
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
All's fair in War.
Except login traps and drag bubbles, I hate those things. |
Ayn Randy
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
13
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.
Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"
I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.
I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?
Yeah but you dont understand.
A. The guys with the huge numbers will be like "WTFOMG why wont you not fight us? Run away!! Pussys! Afraid to undock..." B. The guys with the small numbers are like "Youve got 4 times our numbers, thats not even a fight, its just us dying"
Majority of the time, the guys with the smaller numbers have better FC's and better fleet comps and gladly fight outnumbered.
But when they form up 150 against a 300 man gang, and undock and next thing 300 more get cynoed in along with dreads/supers/titans... B happens... then A happens.
The guys with numbers need to learn how to cap fleets. |
Khanh'rhh
1456
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
This about sums it up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdM44rovn6c&feature=related
If you're not going for the kill everytime then you're not fighting a war. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Khanh'rhh
1456
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ayn Randy wrote:Majority of the time, the guys with the smaller numbers have better FC's and better fleet comps and gladly fight outnumbered. Weird, because recordings of your FCs suggest the complete opposite of this. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
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Ayn Randy
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
13
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Ayn Randy wrote:Majority of the time, the guys with the smaller numbers have better FC's and better fleet comps and gladly fight outnumbered. Weird, because recordings of your FCs suggest the complete opposite of this. Quote:The guys with numbers need to learn how to cap fleets You're working under the false assumption they want you to fight, or they want a fair fight. This is just one reason why SOCO are being faceplanted so hard Australia's hills are rising.
What are you even on about? Is that the CFCs tactic? Blob so hard that the SoCo wont fight them?
Either CFC is very good at reverse psychology or they just need to go back to school and learn how to count. |
Rene Fullchest
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
43
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ayn Randy wrote:Rene Fullchest wrote:I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.
Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"
I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.
I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you? Yeah but you dont understand. A. The guys with the huge numbers will be like "WTFOMG why wont you not fight us? Run away!! Pussys! Afraid to undock..." B. The guys with the small numbers are like "Youve got 4 times our numbers, thats not even a fight, its just us dying" Majority of the time, the guys with the smaller numbers have better FC's and better fleet comps and gladly fight outnumbered. But when they form up 150 against a 300 man gang, and undock and next thing 300 more get cynoed in along with dreads/supers/titans... B happens... then A happens. The guys with numbers need to learn how to cap fleets.
I was in agreement with you right until the end, my friend. Your analysis of what happens was pretty good but, in the end, you come right back to 'fight fair'. Why, exactly, should either side cap fleet numbers? If the huge fleet forces the smaller fleet to dock up, the strategic objectives will certainly be achieved. You have to think of a bigger picture than this one fight.
Also, your assertion that "Majority of the time, the guys with the smaller numbers have better FC's and better fleet comps and gladly fight outnumbered" is pretty much crap. The sweeping generalization of 'better FCs is almost impossible to measure. You like yours and I like mine. It's a wash.
Finally, especially with your 'A' example, taunting (psychological warfare and demoralization) are only a peripheral part of any given fight. Your 'B' example is well-done and valid. I've been in that position and wouldn't undock either.
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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
123
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
AoE damage (bombs) can help but requires enough alpha to start with.
Being outnumbered usually favors guerrilla tactics (mmhm Vagabond).
You should never expect to win a fight by killing them all when outnumbered since their superior numbers will ensure most can run away if they start losing. You can, however, win the isk battle as the chances of pilot error increases with fleet size.
The counter for the blob is more psychological than physical. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
352
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Standard EVE sayings apply:
If you're in a fair fight, you're doing it wrong.
I like Lt Col Cooper's version of the saying better: "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck" -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Rene Fullchest
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
43
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:... You can, however, win the isk battle ...
I see this as just another meaningless metric, and that is proven by your choice of the term 'battle'.
One battle does not make a war. You cannot win the 'isk war' against a superior force with (almost) unlimited isk.
Again, talking about winning by the metric of isk destroyed versus isk lost is the whinging of losers, spin designed only to fool your own pilots, because the rest of the universe knows the truth.
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Rene Fullchest
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
43
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Wait - how the hell did I get 43 likes???? |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
352
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:Wait - how the hell did I get 43 likes????
Someone accidentally the butan? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Daemon Ceed
Jihad Squad from Riyadh Reckless Ambition
240
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.
I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?
As I've often heard, the only unfair fight is the one you lose. In war, one cannot have the expectation of sportsmanship. The purpose and scope of war is different from that of a sports match. One is to decimate your enemy, the other is to show you have superior skill over equal odds. Whichever outcome you choose to pursue is up to you.
The Sandbox = Play however the hell you want. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
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Posted - 2012.07.10 18:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ayn Randy wrote:Yeah but you dont understand.
A. The guys with the huge numbers will be like "WTFOMG why wont you not fight us? Run away!! Pussys! Afraid to undock..." B. The guys with the small numbers are like "Youve got 4 times our numbers, thats not even a fight, its just us dying" Hi Nulli Secunda poster. We're burning your home too.
Have you met Boat? He really loves shooting structures. And people still join his fleets even though most of the time you guys dock (the fleet may or may not go to shoot some structure).
Don't worry, I'm sure -A- will be your savior, beat everyone back, take back your region, give it back to you and not even demand rent or tribute. That's a lot of ifs away, though. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
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Posted - 2012.07.10 18:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Rene Fullchest wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:... You can, however, win the isk battle ... I see this as just another meaningless metric, and that is proven by your choice of the term 'battle'. One battle does not make a war. You cannot win the 'isk war' against a superior force with (almost) unlimited isk. Again, talking about winning by the metric of isk destroyed versus isk lost is the whinging of losers, spin designed only to fool your own pilots, because the rest of the universe knows the truth. It's not just your isk efficiency but also the ratio is isk generation. Right now, tech affects that a good bit.
But don't worry, as long as you tire us out, the fact that SoCo groups are losing pilots (the slopes !!) won't matter, I'm sure... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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