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Generals4
968
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Posted - 2012.07.11 15:04:00 -
[61] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters.
Can it be used for the ultimate caldari victory? -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
73
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 15:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
To all those that thinks its cheesy we are in matar and fighting on the gal front.....boo ******* hoo
Its called adapting, you gallente only pilots don't understand it, and I don't expect you to. But at least respect the kb and the plexing we do. Is sexy time? |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
20
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Posted - 2012.07.11 15:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
Generals4 wrote:Can it be used for the ultimate caldari victory?
Yes. Unfortunately unlike iconic flag picture, you would need settle into a image of Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar flags buried in a ton of horse manure with Caldari flag flying on top of the said manure pile.... |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
20
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Posted - 2012.07.11 17:47:00 -
[64] - Quote
Aylin Aslim wrote:Do you really want to fix FW and pvp? make FW affect highsec, give some penalties on bounties and loots or something else, then there will be pvp.
Seeing that I constantly chase your corporations permarepping plex incursus, I find this whole has clearly been farted out of your arse and is thus utterly hilarious.
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Generals4
968
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Posted - 2012.07.11 18:13:00 -
[65] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Generals4 wrote:Can it be used for the ultimate caldari victory? Yes. Unfortunately unlike iconic flag picture, you would need settle into a image of Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar flags buried in a ton of horse manure with Caldari flag flying on top of the said manure pile....
Why wasn't i informed we had a tool to produces lots of manure.
But yah, i'm still waiting for the huge fix FW needs. -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 01:22:00 -
[66] - Quote
This was truly an excellent discussion. I was so impressed I have promoted this discussion in this thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1613053#post1613053 Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
431
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Posted - 2012.07.12 01:52:00 -
[67] - Quote
I liked the proposal to eliminate missions. They made sense when they were the only way to get LP. Now they're redundant and contribute nothing to the war effort. They also create LP out of thin air. If FW is going to be self sustaining- there needs to be some scarcity of resources. If you have only six systems in your war zone to plex, or if you have to go 20 jumps to plex, you're going to defend your system upgrades alot more fiercely.
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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
42
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Posted - 2012.07.12 02:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
I have to agree. Removing missioning is the way to go. Now that pilots are able to gain Lp by doing faction warfare plex's. Might even be wise to increase the lp pay out if ccp goes this route and give 1 forth the payout for doing defensive plexing.
SUPPORTED! |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
244
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Posted - 2012.07.12 03:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
I would like the removal of the NPC corp so people joining FW had to do so with a player corp of their own or one already in.
I would also like standing requirement set to at lease 2.0.
Sure give people LP for Defending space, why not as unless players live in a system no ones defending them.
I'd like to be able to dock in none FW stations.
I'd like upgrades that don't smack of "OMG what the **** can we give them as upgrades" cause the ones atm are awful.
I'd like some Losec space for Angels, Sep, Sansha, and Guristas so peoples could become proper pirates.
Anyone expecting anything like this to actually come? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 03:38:00 -
[70] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:I have to agree. Removing missioning is the way to go. Now that pilots are able to gain Lp by doing faction warfare plex's. Might even be wise to increase the lp pay out if ccp goes this route and give 1 forth the payout for doing defensive plexing.
SUPPORTED!
I don't recall removing missions being presenented by anyone on the panel.
Its a bad idea. FW mission should be toned down so they are on par with plexing but they are actually the only decent way to create missions in low sec.
Payment for defensive plexing might be just as bad an idea. They are both bad. Its tough to say which is worse.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
431
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Posted - 2012.07.12 04:17:00 -
[71] - Quote
They were all over the place on the panel with missions. There was someone who went off on them as a leftover that didn't fit in with the new system. A few people quite honestly didn't like them. And one person did push for them to be deleted. It wasn't dwelt on for long but the point was made.
Going through the war zone over the past few days you would find mission runners in just about every system in their damn stealth bombers. Some systems were 4-5 jumps from any front. You want them to keep on? It's an all you can eat LP buffet with no risk.
The Minmatar have 65 systems to defend. 80% of them should not be hovering in a handful of systems around Kamela. There are quite a few us offensive plexing down the upgrades in the rear systems. But they don't care because LP grows on trees for them and they can spike war zone control at a whim. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
43
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 04:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Major Killz wrote:I have to agree. Removing missioning is the way to go. Now that pilots are able to gain Lp by doing faction warfare plex's. Might even be wise to increase the lp pay out if ccp goes this route and give 1 forth the payout for doing defensive plexing.
SUPPORTED! I don't recall removing missions being presenented by anyone on the panel. Its a bad idea. FW mission should be toned down so they are on par with plexing but they are actually the only decent way to create missions in low sec. Payment for defensive plexing might be just as bad an idea. They are both bad. Its tough to say which is worse.
MIssions require time to complete. Is the aforementioned statement correct? Plexing requires time to complete. What about that statement?
If so, then its the same ret@rded and boring sh!t. I see no difference between both activities.
Ok!
Throw in Incursion like difficulty in some plex. Those plex move the needle alot. Thow in plex that can be done solo. The aforementioned plex only move the needle a little. Throw in Plex for defense of any movement of the needle against the current holder of the system. Give one fourth the payout and increase the time it takes to defend. Instead of attacking a bunker. The bunker goes offline and resets. Now your milltia has the benifit of owning the system. Whatever that may be v0v
Whatever, it can be done. I've never made isk from pve in this game (for the most part). I've only ever made isk from pvp and market jujitsu. I don't care how you get your isk. I have bank. How you make it work is up to whomever. Point is. It should bring something different and bring alot more losses more than likely. Which means more engagements will happen and increased risk v0v
f*ck it! |
Lebaneur
Tribal Core Defiant Legacy
8
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Posted - 2012.07.12 11:09:00 -
[73] - Quote
Thanks for an interesting talk. While listening the part about NPCs in the plexes I got an idea that might be worth considering.
How about the NPC loose interest in on ships that are not within capture range - you can make the rats harder and make AFK plexing impossible but as soon as you leave the button they leave you alone. That would leave plexes open for PVP as well.
PVP in plexes does not happen on button range (for the exception of last few seconds), so the rats would not imbalance the fight.
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Bengal Bob
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
58
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Posted - 2012.07.12 13:37:00 -
[74] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters.
If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it.
Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 13:47:00 -
[75] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:They were all over the place on the panel with missions. There was someone who went off on them as a leftover that didn't fit in with the new system. A few people quite honestly didn't like them. And one person did push for them to be deleted. It wasn't dwelt on for long but the point was made.
Going through the war zone over the past few days you would find mission runners in just about every system in their damn stealth bombers. Some systems were 4-5 jumps from any front. You want them to keep on? It's an all you can eat LP buffet with no risk.
The Minmatar have 65 systems to defend. 80% of them should not be hovering in a handful of systems around Kamela. There are quite a few us offensive plexing down the upgrades in the rear systems. But they don't care because LP grows on trees for them and they can spike war zone control at a whim.
The reason the Minmatar are hovering around Kamela is they like the idea of taking down your last staging systems. Strategically that's the way to win the war. Kourm, Huola etc are vital forward bases for putting pressure on your staging systems. If you wanted to draw minmatar attention away from missioning then you need to organize a serious threat against Kourm that risks locking people out of their ships and equipment in the stations there.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 13:54:00 -
[76] - Quote
Bengal Bob wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it. Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly.
I'm guessing they are murkily referring to the fact that Gallente loyalists in the Minmatar can go and plex Caldari systems in Black Rise and get paid minmatar LPs (good loyalty point store) for opposing territorial control there.
By the same measure Amarr loyalists could join the Caldari and stay in Bleaks / Metropolis and get paid good Caldari LP's for plexing against minmatar systems.
In a way the "massive screw up" is probably that the FW system we have now means its more sensible for a losing side to swap sides to their winning ally and continue plexing in the same space so they get more valuable LP points for their labour.
In the example above say an Amarrian corp skips to the Caldari and plexes down 4 minors in Arzad. They are getting 16x more LP value for doing the same thing that a loyalist Amarrian corp that stayed Amarrian would get for doing 4 minors in Lantorn. (tier 4 caldari/ tier 1 amarr) The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:48:00 -
[77] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:They were all over the place on the panel with missions. There was someone who went off on them as a leftover that didn't fit in with the new system. A few people quite honestly didn't like them. And one person did push for them to be deleted. It wasn't dwelt on for long but the point was made.
Going through the war zone over the past few days you would find mission runners in just about every system in their damn stealth bombers. Some systems were 4-5 jumps from any front. You want them to keep on? It's an all you can eat LP buffet with no risk.
The Minmatar have 65 systems to defend. 80% of them should not be hovering in a handful of systems around Kamela. There are quite a few us offensive plexing down the upgrades in the rear systems. But they don't care because LP grows on trees for them and they can spike war zone control at a whim.
Yeah you are probably right someone may have said that but I wasn't sure if he was serious or just expressing dissatisfaction with people who come to faction war to farm missions.
After thinking about it perhaps it would be a good idea to eliminate missions altogether.
My main concern is that if you do eliminate them then the side with all the systems will then cry for lp for defensive plexing. If ccp does that then this game will just be null sec "farms and fields" garbage.
However, if they removed missions and still didn't give lp for defensive plexing then by winning you would cut most of your sources of income. Which I actually think is ok. That would mean that only the people who contributed to getting you there would be able to cash out at the higher tier! People who pile on the winning side after its winning will gain little. This would definitely help provide more balance that faction war needs.
Instead of everyone joining the winning side the losing side would naturally be the one getting new recruits because your main source of getting lp to cash out is by doing offensive plexing.
The side defending would still have an incentive to keep fighting to hold the systems as long as possible. Because they will make more isk if they have several cashouts based on market changes instead of one big one where they are left to guess. Plus they will still be picking up some lp from systems that are still owned by the losing side and through pvp. But yeah mainly through pvp.
So hopefully they would get a big influx of money and use it to try to fight off the offensive plexers. Instead of waiting for them to finish their offensive plexes and then come out to do a defensive plex after all the wartargets are gone and they can do it without pvp. The smart factions would aim to flip systems in dramatic fashion so they can reach tier 5 instead of always stagnating at tier 3-4.
I am not sure this would work when you can join any of the four militias but I am pretty sure it would.
But anyway if they keep the missions:
The fact that missions don't contribute to sov is a good thing. If they just keep doing missions then the systems will become vulnerable or close to vulnerable. Once we have enough of them vulnerable or close to vulnerable to get to tier 5 then we can start flipping them ourselves. I think this may be how this is intended to work.
That said, missions shouldn't pay more than plexing. It should only be on par with plexing. CCP originally said they were going to make plexing pay better than missions - they did not.
I don't mind that faction war offers some pvp (plexing-or at least it should be pvp) and pve (missions) mechanics. I think they did a good job with the pve - missions. They really just need to tone it a bit. The faction war missions I believe are the best idea for low sec missions that anyone ever came up with. Maybe make it so they get 2/3s the lp or something. Or eliminate them altogether but if you do then do not start giving lp for defensive plexing.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
116
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:50:00 -
[78] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Bengal Bob wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it. Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly. I'm guessing they are murkily referring to the fact that Gallente loyalists in the Minmatar can go and plex Caldari systems in Black Rise and get paid minmatar LPs (good loyalty point store) for opposing territorial control there. By the same measure Amarr loyalists could join the Caldari and stay in Bleaks / Metropolis and get paid good Caldari LP's for plexing against minmatar systems. In a way the "massive screw up" is probably that the FW system we have now means its more sensible for a losing side to swap sides to their winning ally and continue plexing in the same space so they get more valuable LP points for their labour. In the example above say an Amarrian corp skips to the Caldari and plexes down 4 minors in Arzad. They are getting 16x more LP value for doing the same thing that a loyalist Amarrian corp that stayed Amarrian would get for doing 4 minors in Lantorn. (tier 4 caldari/ tier 1 amarr)
I thought someone said you can't shoot your allies iHub which in that case as you'll not ever take your local systems eventually you'll just end up stalemating the zone with systems stuck and vuln never flipped and never dplexed back down.
It would make more sense to swap to Caldari and then go to Caldari space anything else still requires a healthy FW side willing to work for bad LP and willing to flip systems back and forth. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:53:00 -
[79] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Cearain wrote:Major Killz wrote:I have to agree. Removing missioning is the way to go. Now that pilots are able to gain Lp by doing faction warfare plex's. Might even be wise to increase the lp pay out if ccp goes this route and give 1 forth the payout for doing defensive plexing.
SUPPORTED! I don't recall removing missions being presenented by anyone on the panel. Its a bad idea. FW mission should be toned down so they are on par with plexing but they are actually the only decent way to create missions in low sec. Payment for defensive plexing might be just as bad an idea. They are both bad. Its tough to say which is worse. MIssions require time to complete. Is the aforementioned statement correct? Plexing requires time to complete. What about that statement? If so, then its the same ret@rded and boring sh!t. I see no difference between both activities. Ok!!
There is an important difference. Plexing helps your miltia maintain its tiers. Missions do not.
Your point about both taking time is correct though and also important. If a side spends time running missions instead of plexing they will lose sovereignty.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:57:00 -
[80] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Bengal Bob wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it. Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly. I'm guessing they are murkily referring to the fact that Gallente loyalists in the Minmatar can go and plex Caldari systems in Black Rise and get paid minmatar LPs (good loyalty point store) for opposing territorial control there. By the same measure Amarr loyalists could join the Caldari and stay in Bleaks / Metropolis and get paid good Caldari LP's for plexing against minmatar systems. In a way the "massive screw up" is probably that the FW system we have now means its more sensible for a losing side to swap sides to their winning ally and continue plexing in the same space so they get more valuable LP points for their labour. In the example above say an Amarrian corp skips to the Caldari and plexes down 4 minors in Arzad. They are getting 16x more LP value for doing the same thing that a loyalist Amarrian corp that stayed Amarrian would get for doing 4 minors in Lantorn. (tier 4 caldari/ tier 1 amarr) I thought someone said you can't shoot your allies iHub which in that case as you'll not ever take your local systems eventually you'll just end up stalemating the zone with systems stuck and vuln never flipped and never dplexed back down. It would make more sense to swap to Caldari and then go to Caldari space anything else still requires a healthy FW side willing to work for bad LP and willing to flip systems back and forth.
I've no idea to be honest on the IHUB issue. But I do know its still apparently possible to plex (and get paid for plexing) when a system is in vulnerable state so I guess it wouldn't make much actual difference to the "strategy".
Anyway this is what I imagine Damar's alt is going on about.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
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Zarnak Wulf
The Roaches
432
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:59:00 -
[81] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
The reason the Minmatar are hovering around Kamela is they like the idea of taking down your last staging systems. Strategically that's the way to win the war. Kourm, Huola etc are vital forward bases for putting pressure on your staging systems. If you wanted to draw minmatar attention away from missioning then you need to organize a serious threat against Kourm that risks locking people out of their ships and equipment in the stations there.
This completely dances around what I was saying. Tearing down your upgrades should be a 'credible' threat. It isn't as the game works right now. In the podcast it was suggested that the LP payout be affected by the tier system rather then the LP store be determined by it. That means at tier 5 you would make 40k LP for running a minor. It also has other nice effects. There is no 'spiking.' We tear you down to level 3 and you feel it immediately. Less LP for what you do.
You also point to tech moons and nullsec and ask why FW should be addressed if that's messed up. My daughter does the same strategy in real life. So let me address you in the same way as I would a 9 year old using the oldest crap in the book.
'We're not talking about Johnny Goon. We're talking about you.'
There should be some real hand-wringing about how the LP you earn is spent. There is none. If we got rid of mission running what would that do? If we paid plexing Caldari plexes with Gallente LP what would that do? I personally wouldn't mind seeing LP for defensive plexing at that point in time. Most of the winning side's isk would be made during the conquest. Once it is over or almost over - the gravy train would dry up. People would drift off. The losing team could start to push. The winning team would have to rely on it's upgraded systems to make isk. Ideas like this are how you design a closed system. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Bengal Bob wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:If you are trolling, I admit I am biting. I am very curious what the loophole is. I am aware of some things that some might consider a loophole. But I don't think they are anything that big of a deal. Not trolling, just admitting there is a massive screw up which CCP has not spotted (surprising, eh?) and which might result in last shreds of FW going down the s.itters. If you are aware of any exploits or loopholes you have a responsibility to report it to CCP. If they still do nothing, then post details on the forums and ask publicly for them to deal with it. Just sitting around claiming Gallente and Minmatar are probably using it because it exists is silly. I'm guessing they are murkily referring to the fact that Gallente loyalists in the Minmatar can go and plex Caldari systems in Black Rise and get paid minmatar LPs (good loyalty point store) for opposing territorial control there. By the same measure Amarr loyalists could join the Caldari and stay in Bleaks / Metropolis and get paid good Caldari LP's for plexing against minmatar systems. In a way the "massive screw up" is probably that the FW system we have now means its more sensible for a losing side to swap sides to their winning ally and continue plexing in the same space so they get more valuable LP points for their labour. In the example above say an Amarrian corp skips to the Caldari and plexes down 4 minors in Arzad. They are getting 16x more LP value for doing the same thing that a loyalist Amarrian corp that stayed Amarrian would get for doing 4 minors in Lantorn. (tier 4 caldari/ tier 1 amarr)
I doubt this is what they mean. Its not really a "screw up." I think its fine to work like that. If they leave caldari space the gallente will gain ground on them. And their caldari lp will not be worth as much. If they are in minmatar space making progress they may want to flip over to amarr becasue the amarr lp will be worth allot after they start massively flipping systems.
The reason I am glad we switched over to caldari is because amarr 1)kept flipping systems as soon as they could allowing the minmatar to flip them back immediately making tons of isk 2) we were mainly doing plexing in small localized areas that were easy for the minmatar blob to sit in and plex up again and 3) kept wasting too much time defensive plexing which again only feeds minmatar.
If we would have taken all the plexing time we spent on defensive plexing and instead only did offensive plexing throughout the zone I think the space would be allot more contested and amarr would be closer to hitting tier five. But I do agree that involves some speculation on my part, and I do agree minmatar probably would have gotten a medal. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:12:00 -
[83] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:[quote=Jade Constantine]
The reason the Minmatar are hovering around Kamela is they like the idea of taking down your last staging systems. Strategically that's the way to win the war. Kourm, Huola etc are vital forward bases for putting pressure on your staging systems. If you wanted to draw minmatar attention away from missioning then you need to organize a serious threat against Kourm that risks locking people out of their ships and equipment in the stations there.
Bad advice from our enemy. Not surprising.
I don't blame you for trying though.
If you continue to mission while we plex all your back water systems you will soon find you either have to do a bunch of defensive plexing for no lp or you will find we will be striking at tier 5.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2682
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:13:00 -
[84] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:[ This completely dances around what I was saying. Tearing down your upgrades should be a 'credible' threat. It isn't as the game works right now. In the podcast it was suggested that the LP payout be affected by the tier system rather then the LP store be determined by it. That means at tier 5 you would make 40k LP for running a minor. It also has other nice effects. There is no 'spiking.' We tear you down to level 3 and you feel it immediately. Less LP for what you do.
Well I think its a suggestion that has some merit. I'd also like the upgrades to systems to be more interesting in and of themselves so they were worth defending (rather than simply being a short term cashout thing) at the moment the upgrades are really boring and it doesn't make much actual difference if a system you stage out of is 5 or zero. Somebody suggested some kind of 0.0 style rat farming upgrades as a throwaway comment in some thread - but at least that would give people a reason to want to sustain their tier outside of cashout time.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:You also point to tech moons and nullsec and ask why FW should be addressed if that's messed up. My daughter does the same strategy in real life. So let me address you in the same way as I would a 9 year old using the oldest crap in the book. 'We're not talking about Johnny Goon. We're talking about you.'
Well say I've got two daughters (9 and 17).. one of them is pouring cornflakes into my shoes and the other one is using my credit card to order $1000 pants on the internet. I know which critical issue I'm going to prioritize the resolution of!
The thing I was addressing really was this "shock horror FW is making billionaires!" line of tabloid argumentation that Poetic was producing in his blog. I think that's akin to RL tabloid scare stories about benefit cheats and low level working joe graft while ignoring the corruption of our politicians and financial systems. Its a pretty crude form of manipulation.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:There should be some real hand-wringing about how the LP you earn is spent. There is none. If we got rid of mission running what would that do? If we paid plexing Caldari plexes with Gallente LP what would that do? I personally wouldn't mind seeing LP for defensive plexing at that point in time. Most of the winning side's isk would be made during the conquest. Once it is over or almost over - the gravy train would dry up. People would drift off. The losing team could start to push. The winning team would have to rely on it's upgraded systems to make isk. Ideas like this are how you design a closed system.
Well I appreciate the intention to theorycraft solutions - its much better than simply moaning about things.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
AndromacheDarkstar
Phantom Brigade Inc.
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:17:00 -
[85] - Quote
Just finished listening to the podcast, finally something in size to compete with lost in eve. Overall it was pretty interesting to listen to all you guys giving us your thoughts on the current state of affairs. Being one of those thats fairly new to FW im still wide eyed but i can see some of the flaws in the way things work.
First off i have to say that FW is the most fun anyone i know has ever had in eve, lots of fights and lots of good people generally getting on well and helping eachother out. I do have a problem with the stance allot of you took towards the idea of "Farming", as far as i can tell plexing is one of if not the most important part of the FW system as it stands and i think more people are actually playing the system as its intended rather than "farming", it seemed like you ignored those people and thats doing them a diservice.
Some great ideas did come up, one of the best was changing the bonus from lower LP prices in stores to altering the LP made from the various FW activites, as far as i can tell this would solve the Issue of the LP i have so far earnt not being that usefull, fights are great but to fight you need ships and its damn hard to make any isk in FW. I come from the amarr side of things and although we are losing and deserve to be in a worse position Minnie pilots are going to find themselves fresh out of targets one day as everyones isk dries up.
The big discussion about plexing itself was also interesting, i like plexing as it is it does provide some fights and isnt that boring, i was wondering if it would be better if the buttons went down quicker, gave less of an infulence and provided less LP to make things a bit mroe interesting.
Other idea i had while listening was to have a warp out gate from PLEX sites. You cant warp out any other way than through the gate, im pretty sure this would end up forcing more PVP and making the risk allot greater for people trying to plex all day.
Last but not least i do also think its important to change over the way defensive plexing works ASAP, as you guys said there is just no reason to D PLEX, as far as i can see the only way to change this is to introduce an LP reward.
Andro |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 15:51:00 -
[86] - Quote
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:Just finished listening to the podcast, finally something in size to compete with lost in eve. Overall it was pretty interesting to listen to all you guys giving us your thoughts on the current state of affairs. Being one of those thats fairly new to FW im still wide eyed but i can see some of the flaws in the way things work.
First off i have to say that FW is the most fun anyone i know has ever had in eve, lots of fights and lots of good people generally getting on well and helping eachother out. I do have a problem with the stance allot of you took towards the idea of "Farming", as far as i can tell plexing is one of if not the most important part of the FW system as it stands and i think more people are actually playing the system as its intended rather than "farming", it seemed like you ignored those people and thats doing them a diservice.
Some great ideas did come up, one of the best was changing the bonus from lower LP prices in stores to altering the LP made from the various FW activites, as far as i can tell this would solve the Issue of the LP i have so far earnt not being that usefull, fights are great but to fight you need ships and its damn hard to make any isk in FW. I come from the amarr side of things and although we are losing and deserve to be in a worse position Minnie pilots are going to find themselves fresh out of targets one day as everyones isk dries up.
The big discussion about plexing itself was also interesting, i like plexing as it is it does provide some fights and isnt that boring, i was wondering if it would be better if the buttons went down quicker, gave less of an infulence and provided less LP to make things a bit mroe interesting.
Other idea i had while listening was to have a warp out gate from PLEX sites. You cant warp out any other way than through the gate, im pretty sure this would end up forcing more PVP and making the risk allot greater for people trying to plex all day.
Last but not least i do also think its important to change over the way defensive plexing works ASAP, as you guys said there is just no reason to D PLEX, as far as i can see the only way to change this is to introduce an LP reward.
Andro
I would rather ccp removed the ability to defensive plex altogether rather than boost it. If you want to protect a system you should have to get out there an prevent the offensive plexers from capturing a plex in the first place - in other words through pvp. The idea that you can just let them run a plex and then wait until all the wartargets leave so you can run the defensive plex is terrible. The winning side is the side that has more time to kill as opposed to the side that is better at pvp.
But your other ideas are pretty good. I like the idea of shorter timers on plexes. Maybe all of them cut to 2/3s. I would leave the same amount of vp going to flipping the system as I would prefer a shorter flip time. But if people want the shorter flip time that is fine.
The thing is I will often run a plex in a system with allot of wartargets hoping to get a fight. And then when the timer has about 7 minutes left I see they all leave system. Well the question is do I sit on that button or go look for pvp? I usually go look for pvp. If the plex timers were shorter I would probably at least finish the plex.
However if ccp ever gives us a notification when plexes are taken I would like the timers to remain about the same amount of time. So people will have time to react to the notification. (see my sig if you don't know what I am talking about with notifications)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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AndromacheDarkstar
Phantom Brigade Inc.
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 16:02:00 -
[87] - Quote
"I would rather ccp removed the ability to defensive plex altogether rather than boost it. If you want to protect a system you should have to get out there an prevent the offensive plexers from capturing a plex in the first place - in other words through pvp. The idea that you can just let them run a plex and then wait until all the wartargets leave so you can run the defensive plex is terrible. The winning side is the side that has more time to kill as opposed to the side that is better at pvp.
But your other ideas are pretty good. I like the idea of shorter timers on plexes. Maybe all of them cut to 2/3s. I would leave the same amount of vp going to flipping the system as I would prefer a shorter flip time. But if people want the shorter flip time that is fine.
The thing is I will often run a plex in a system with allot of wartargets hoping to get a fight. And then when the timer has about 7 minutes left I see they all leave system. Well the question is do I sit on that button or go look for pvp? I usually go look for pvp. If the plex timers were shorter I would probably at least finish the plex.
However if ccp ever gives us a notification when plexes are taken I would like the timers to remain about the same amount of time. So people will have time to react to the notification. (see my sig if you don't know what I am talking about with notifications) "
You make a really good point about defensive plexing, i hadnt even considered that as an idea but that would defiantely force people to be more active in PVP, i do wonder if it would make it too hard to be able to defend a system though. Im with you on the leaving the button situation and i think shorter times would help that along allot.
I read your ideas about the notifications and im not 100% convinced there, maybe it would be better if a notification is up on the system control viewer to to show you what sites are up although we kind of already have that with the overview.
With regards ot NPCS i dont view them as too much of a problem, maybe have htem leave if an opposing player pulls into the plex (not sure how difficult this is to implememnt). Also if your introducing the outgate idea i propsed then your gonig to get allot more pvp anyway and so people wpuld be better prepared for it and will have got rid of or moved out of the way of NPCS before the fight starts . If you remove NPCs completely it will make plexing far too simple. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
490
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 16:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:"I would rather ccp removed the ability to defensive plex altogether rather than boost it. If you want to protect a system you should have to get out there an prevent the offensive plexers from capturing a plex in the first place - in other words through pvp. The idea that you can just let them run a plex and then wait until all the wartargets leave so you can run the defensive plex is terrible. The winning side is the side that has more time to kill as opposed to the side that is better at pvp.
But your other ideas are pretty good. I like the idea of shorter timers on plexes. Maybe all of them cut to 2/3s. I would leave the same amount of vp going to flipping the system as I would prefer a shorter flip time. But if people want the shorter flip time that is fine.
The thing is I will often run a plex in a system with allot of wartargets hoping to get a fight. And then when the timer has about 7 minutes left I see they all leave system. Well the question is do I sit on that button or go look for pvp? I usually go look for pvp. If the plex timers were shorter I would probably at least finish the plex.
However if ccp ever gives us a notification when plexes are taken I would like the timers to remain about the same amount of time. So people will have time to react to the notification. (see my sig if you don't know what I am talking about with notifications) "AndromacheDarkstar wrote: You make a really good point about defensive plexing, i hadnt even considered that as an idea but that would defiantely force people to be more active in PVP, i do wonder if it would make it too hard to be able to defend a system though. .. .
.
Yes it would make it too hard to defend a system. But that is what we want. We want it to be too hard for one faction to remain dominant. If that continues everyone will just join the winning side as we see happening already. The goal would be to hold the systems as long as possible though pvp fighting in plexes. Keeping your lp store favorable for a longer period of time and preventing the other side from cashing out for longer. But yeah ultimately the war should sway from one side to the other.
AndromacheDarkstar wrote: I read your ideas about the notifications and im not 100% convinced there, maybe it would be better if a notification is up on the system control viewer to to show you what sites are up although we kind of already have that with the overview. .
I'm not sure what you are refering to. But when I enter a plex I doubt most of the enemy militia knows I am there. In fact I doubt most of the people in local who may be docked up docked up even know I am attacking their military complex.
I think this is why plexing is currently best done through pve. Its also why its hard to defend a system. If we had a notificiation system would could defend the system though pvp.
Ultimate question is whether ccp wants to make sov control a pvp mechanic or a pve/alt mechanic. If they want pvp they would notify us of plexes being taken by the enemy so we can fight for them. If they want it to remain pve they will just give lp or other boosts to defensive plexing. That way people can wait for offensive plexers to capture the plex and go plex it after all the wartargets leave.
AndromacheDarkstar wrote: With regards to NPCS i dont view them as too much of a problem, maybe have htem leave if an opposing player pulls into the plex (not sure how difficult this is to implememnt). Also if your introducing the outgate idea i propsed then your gonig to get allot more pvp anyway and so people wpuld be better prepared for it and will have got rid of or moved out of the way of NPCS before the fight starts . If you remove NPCs completely it will make plexing far too simple.
The minor plexes are not too bad. But the mediums and major plexes amarr faced used to be a real pain. I haven't done the medium or major ones since they supposedly removed ewar so I am not sure what they are like. I am not even sure they did remove the ewar. I know I was getting target painted in a minor plex. The strength of the npcs varies pretty dramatically depending on which militia you are fighting for. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
24
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 16:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:I've no idea to be honest on the IHUB issue. But I do know its still apparently possible to plex (and get paid for plexing) when a system is in vulnerable state so I guess it wouldn't make much actual difference to the "strategy".
Anyway this is what I imagine Damar's alt is going on about.
No but ultimately it does not matter. Ushra K'han member (instead of usual TLF farmers) was spotted plexing in our space and smacking in local. So I am fairly convinced the Matar farming assault has begun. Unfortunately this leaves no option but to hasten Operation "s.it the sandbox" with all possible means to make sure we are not drowned by the red carebears coming over from Heimatar.
And should it go as planned and things go belly-up for you (success is after all never guaranteed), then remember that you forced us to do it with your pve machine. |
San Severina
Hoplite Brigade
13
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 13:05:00 -
[90] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:You all sound like nerds. just saying...
you think?
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