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Dallenn
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.16 12:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dallenn on 16/05/2010 12:25:47 In the years gone, frigates featured big in Eve and PvP combat was adrenaline-filled by fast -paced skirmish engagements. In 2004 there were 2 kinds of PvPers: the one flying interceptors (the only t2 ship available) and the one flying battleships. Every now and then, you'd spot the fast frigate swarm flying around looking for easy targets to gank.
The situation has changed pretty much. Various cruisers have been introduced, and even T1 cruisers are again popular. Cloaking means you don't need speed and agility to survive, so even for scouting a frigate is not required but you may be better served by a recon cruiser. Roaming frigate fleets are a once in a blue moon phenomenon. Frigates don't do well in combat fleets, and FCs call for heavier ships - battlecruisers, battleships, and so on - with stronger tanks and higher DPS. Frigate tackle is a highly specialized role - you might have 1 tackling inty for a fleet of 30 battleships. The entire frigate category is becoming a niche.
So - how can we address this issue?
Bad fixes
Nerf T1 cruisers: True enough that T1 cruisers overshadow the T2 and T3 variants, but overall the T1 project was well done and it's very good for PvP that T1 cruisers provide a credible low cost-option. There'd be little point in backtracking succesful balancing.
More DPS for frigates: This would give frigs a lot of the desired oomph, but I'm afraid the better skilled players would derive much more benefit than newbies. You would get dramiels going 10km/s, circling you at 20-30km and dealing 600 dps - nearly impossible to counter, so rather bad for play balance and the new player experience.
More speed for frigates: This would have the benefit of making frigs a more distinct ship class offering unique advantage. But again it would run counter to recent balance changes that have been thought succesful, and would give more advantage to experienced players.
The good fix
More EHP for frigates: It is often said that frigates suck because they just die very easily and at least new players should steer well clear of them. There's something seriously wrong if a whole major category of ships is completely off-limits for a large group of players. New players should jump into cheap t1 and t2 frigs, and start learning the skills necessary to use speed and agility for survival. But giving more EHP to frigs would soften some of the bumps on the road - you would get more of those lucky last-second saves and escapes, a group of frigs might be able to gank a BS with just 3 losses instead of 4, etc. The EHP fix should mostly be in the form of HP, because that benefits frigates nicely as they operate independently, and with major resistance gains there could be a risk of frigates becoming OP when supported by nanologistics.
The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.16 12:23:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Dallenn
so many words. so i guess frigates are fine.
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Dallenn
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.16 12:39:00 -
[3]
What does the issue mean in practice - which frigates are the rare useful types, and which have a problem?
The problem frigates
The destroyers are a cheap, effective anti-frigate ship. They only have 2 problems: 1) they have weak tanks and survivability, so they are pretty much dead as soon as they enter the battlefield 2) there are no frigs to counter! So obviously fixing other frigates would help a little, in the sense of giving dessys a few more targets, but this would not be enough. Despite their low price they have been a failclass of a ship because the survivability is poor. My suggestion would be to push them into the very light cruiser direction - slightly increase sig radius and intertia, while giving a significant boost to EHP - something in the order of 20-40%. The stronger dessys might become a problem because of the good anti-frig DPS, but they could have 1 weapon slot removed for keeping the DPS manageable.
Electronic attack frigates are another clearly lackluster class in general view. Their e-war bonuses are OK - at least enough to make them useful when frigate vessels are called for - but again the survivability is the problem. They have the same glass-cannon paper mass tanks as stealth bombers do, but they hurt much more because of this. They are not suitable for the same kind of sudden alpha strikes as bombers typically are. Plus they don't have the cloaking defense ubiquitous on bombers. They have to survive as a part of the main combat fleet - being constantly engageable by the enemy while trying to do their best supporting friendlies with the e-war abilities. An increase in both resists and HP would be called for to make these ships viable.
The so-so frigates
Assault frigs are generally OK, but just lack that little bit of oomph to make them sexy enough so people would start choosing them instead of the T1-T3 nanocruiser. This could be adjusted by a slight EHP increase and taking a look at long-range frigate weaponry, and also certain ship-specific adjustments in bonuses etc.
Interceptors have been pushed into a niche, which really doesn't serve their old reputation as one of the cornerstone ships of a fleet. But this is basically OK - current Eve design with a vast number of pvp ships goes with many ships just filling certain niches. Intys still offer unique advantages in speed, agility and tackling bonuses which make them worth flying. My suggestion is to just take a look at those ships that are not flown too often - ares, raptor, malediction, claw and so on and adjust their individual properties accordingly.
The good frigates
T1 frigates are dirt-cheap but also get blown up very easily. I think this is fine. People new to PvP and flying these are clearly at a disadvantage, but they can get their feet wet while building up the wealth required for more advanced ships. T1 frigs can occasionally be deadly in experienced hands, so I think their marginal role is OK, taking into account the very low cost.
Bombers went from zero to hero practically overnight. They work well for scouting and are deadly against large targets. A niche ship but quite popular nonetheless, so the rebalancing was obviously rather succesful. Personally I would make the bombs more powerful to disperse the large blobs in Eve, but that is an entirely different discussion :)
Covops are a unique class and they work nowadays just as well as they ever have. Covcynos and w-space exploration has given them a stronger role, and they even can tolerate brief combat exposure in capable hands. Things are pretty much as they should be in this class.
Interdictors have their bubbling capacity so they easily defend their place in 0.0. It could be debated whether they should be given better all-around capability for empire space (T2 destroyers anyone?), but this is much less of an issue than the lacking abilities of other frigate classes.
The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.05.16 13:12:00 -
[4]
So to summarize, you would like something to be done to make destroyers/ EAS's a little sturdier and for the AFs to have a purpose? Perhaps edit the thread title to reflect this?
- Design ALL destroyers so that they are on par with the current Thrasher, nothing more needs to be done really. T2 variants should have gun option where applicable (Caldari/Amarr) and a missile option for Matari. EAS are trickier. Increase lock range to be at least equal to their T1 hulls and they get 15-25+km more space to move in when using primary eWar .. puts them out at the edges of drone control range = good for survival. AF's are currently being discussed in more threads than I can count so won't start on them here, other than to say that a uniform class-bonus will be extremely hard to make work for all of them.
PS: If a frigate gang loses 3-4 ships against a BS they are doing something horribly wrong .. just saying
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Taxesarebad
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Posted - 2010.05.16 14:44:00 -
[5]
Frigates are definatly fine. why would you Buff a ship that is dirt cheap. frigates in gangs don't happen much because you can't tank gate guns.
-------------SIGZONE-------------- Remove Shadow.... ;) |
Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.05.16 16:19:00 -
[6]
Recent/Not So Recent Buffs to Frigates:
Web Nerf - this was huge! Scrambler change - Allowed the two mid AFs to actually have a purpose. Small rigs - Breathed new life into t1 frigates and some other ships. Kitsune, AF, ect. T2 insurance changes w/ Tyrannis - If tacklers are covered up to 60%, you should see the effective price of EAS and AF fall to 10-12 million isk. They still have flaws that need addressing but that's again, huge.
Recent Nerf:
Tracking Enhancer Change - Alot of ships use these now. Better tracking = more dead frigates. More falloff also means that long distance tackling is less of an option.
Frigate Changes?:
Give interceptors full T2 resists. Give EAS ships a bit more range and smaller signature radius. AF - At this point give them their missing frigate bonus and true frigate mass and I'd be happy.
Subtle tweaks would balance frigates.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.05.16 17:31:00 -
[7]
give us more navigation skills actually with 1 mil of SP you are done for subcap navigation skills
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Dallenn
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.16 18:26:00 -
[8]
Another idea could be to increase sig radius penalties for weapons - for both medium and large weapons. This would counter a bit the change below, but would also have the rather desirable side effect of making target painters useful in the game.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Tracking Enhancer Change - Alot of ships use these now. Better tracking = more dead frigates. More falloff also means that long distance tackling is less of an option.
I guess the recent need for frigate-related tweaks goes to show that the hit-and-run skirmish play relying on frigates was seriously nerfed by the huge EHP buff to all ships.
The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.16 18:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: 1600 RT give us more navigation skills actually with 1 mil of SP you are done for subcap navigation skills
is this troll? i have like 2m SP in navigation and i am not even close to done. (assuming done means all lvl5 in the group)
on the topic:
except for a slight EHP/lock radius buff for EAFs, i think frigate sized ships are fine.
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Aglais
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.16 20:03:00 -
[10]
Faction frigates need to actually be WORTH the 40-80mil you pay for them. Currently, the Worm doesn't seem cost effective; I've put 80mil into it and it seems to me that its still something that'll die easily and send all that cash down the drain.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.05.16 20:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Aglais Faction frigates need to actually be WORTH the 40-80mil you pay for them. Currently, the Worm doesn't seem cost effective; ...
You have to remember that the actual cost of faction frigs is 10M + 20k LP or what amounts to one level 4 mission. If you want lower prices then try to convince your fellow players to stop being so bloody greedy
The amount of work (not counting the promised AF stuff!) is really not worth mentioning as QR did the heavy lifting as far as making lights viable is concerned.
Note: Lights are meant to die horribly at ever increasing rates as gang sizes go up, this cannot be balanced out without breaking everything else so don't bother trying.
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Dallenn
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.24 20:58:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Dallenn on 24/05/2010 20:59:43
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Note: Lights are meant to die horribly at ever increasing rates as gang sizes go up, this cannot be balanced out without breaking everything else so don't bother trying.
That approach would need lights to be an ueber ship class for the small gangs in order to keep things balanced. However this is not the case, because even with a small gang you can do most jobs best with a cruiser class ship, and for any DPS needs the cruiser is a very good choice, while battlecruisers and even battleships being rather viable options.
The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction |
Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.05.24 23:53:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Misanthra on 24/05/2010 23:53:37
Originally by: Aglais Faction frigates need to actually be WORTH the 40-80mil you pay for them. Currently, the Worm doesn't seem cost effective; I've put 80mil into it and it seems to me that its still something that'll die easily and send all that cash down the drain.
Worm for PVE is fine...pvp, meh, its a drone boat with missiles in the highs. Vexor it is not (hybrids and drones can be a more effective combo imo). Worm a niche ship, I like to think of it as the miner's combat ship if looking to get better standings for reifne stations since chances are good the only offensive capability of a dedicated miner will have is t2 drones. Drones kill, learn basic missile if motivated or just tractor/salvager the highs. Fills this niche on my miner alt well.
CCP tried to make faction frigs more appealing, but that just ****ed off more peeps. Place dramiel rant here. CCP gave the pirate factions a nice ability set, some people hated it. Either get the t2 e-peen peeps who say its not fair a non t2 ship beats t2 (20 mil isk ship versus an 80 mil ship needing 2 racial skill sets to fly, wonder why its better )....or they say it can't be countered (mainly cause too cheap to buy a dramiel imo).
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David Grogan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.25 01:07:00 -
[14]
Edited by: David Grogan on 25/05/2010 01:07:16 if Assault Frigs got an afterburner bonus that made the ab be twice as good as it currently is they would be usefull again (note the amarr af would also need a second mid slot so it can have an ab and 1 tackle mod (warp scram, web or warp disruptor)
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:35:00 -
[15]
Frigates are fine, only assault frigs might need looking at.
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Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.05.25 16:34:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/05/2010 16:34:55 Frigates are definitely fine now.
Frigate gangs are very dangerous to larger ships if they are doing it right, and even solo frigates are dangerous to a host of ships so they have to resort to gimmicky solutions to not die to solo rifter (ECM drones and stuff), or just not fly the ships altogether (look how unrepresented some hulls have become post QR).
You are forgetting that frigates are cheap, have great agility and speed and low sig (making them very hard to tackle, and easy to pick fights with), have great damage mitigation vs larger guns (particularly BS guns, unlike, say, battlecruisers which get melted by BS) and have awesome locktime enabling you to tackle very easily. On top of that, since the web nerf and scram buff, they're dangerous and require a set of quite specific counters to get one off you (and vs the hardier ones it's hard to shake them off once they've scrambled you at all, often leading to tackle cascade and subsequent death).
Frigates are, basically, fine. They are in no way unrepresented in EVE PVP (or at least, I see tons of them around particularly in FW space and stuff, and they are a PITA to deal with).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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