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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.20 17:26:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Drek Grapper I very much doubt they would indirectly nerf Marauders like that. Aren't they just changing drop values of low value items so mission runners don't impact mining so much by refining loots?
Go take a look at the market cost of a meta 0 artillery vs a meta 2 or meta 3 artillery. This extends to all modules, but is especially noticeable around guns.
-Liang
It's worth bearing in mind that if CCP stop "Ghost Datacores" as is currently rumoured, then the price of T2 will rise, and with it, the value of many meta-x items. Probably not a whole lot, tbh, but some.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.20 17:30:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Drek Grapper Making missions 'bad' in what way? Am i missing something...? Bad for the 'game' or bad for mission runners...whats it gonna fix?
"Bad" in terms of encroaching on the territory of mining and manufacturing û reducing the value of both professions û without having to train the requisite skills. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.20 19:55:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Drek Grapper
Making missions 'bad' in what way? Am i missing something...? Bad for the 'game' or bad for mission runners...whats it gonna fix?
Mission runners produce a lot of minerals by refining their loot drops. To the point where a substantial fraction of the mineral market is altered by it. This influx of minerals depresses the price, and as a result lowers the profitability of mining. To the point where at the moment - almost anything T1 is available for very nearly nothing, once you factor in insurance. The only reason the price hasn't gone any lower, is because every time it does, someone notices and buys a lot of ships and blows them up.
Meta zero modules are worth more on the open market, because they refine for more minerals than meta 1/2/3/4. They're also the only thing T1 manufacturers _can_ produce, and as they're a byproduct from missioning, the price of T1 modules ... similarly, gets artificially depressed to a point where it's not profitable to bother - because the mission runner has only opportunity cost of selling his loot, and isn't buying stuff off the market, so it's practically a 'waste' product.
Thus, they remove meta zero - the effect of price limiting by the mission influx gets significantly reduced. Meta modules only come from missions. T1/T2 only comes from industry.
Prices shift accordingly, until each enterprise becomes profitable enough that someone starts doing it.
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.20 21:27:00 -
[34]
That was well explained...thanks. -- "If itÆs true that our species is alone in the universe, then IÆd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little" George Carlin |
caboaddict
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Posted - 2010.05.20 21:57:00 -
[35]
Edited by: caboaddict on 20/05/2010 21:58:18 Edited by: caboaddict on 20/05/2010 21:58:03
Originally by: Liang Nuren Also, salvaging is already a waste of time.
I would beg to differ for Sansha and more so BR. They provide a good quantity of salvage material for engineering and armor related rigs. Now they may not support a full time industrialist directly, but for anyone who wants to make their own rigs or sale an occasional batch for a little extra isk, salvaging anything cruiser/BC and up will be effective use of your time.
Although I will say a T2 salvager is a must on a marauder (even if it does take 14 days )
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NoNah
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Posted - 2010.05.20 22:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: caboaddict Edited by: caboaddict on 20/05/2010 21:58:18 Edited by: caboaddict on 20/05/2010 21:58:03
Originally by: Liang Nuren Also, salvaging is already a waste of time.
I would beg to differ for Sansha and more so BR. They provide a good quantity of salvage material for engineering and armor related rigs. Now they may not support a full time industrialist directly, but for anyone who wants to make their own rigs or sale an occasional batch for a little extra isk, salvaging anything cruiser/BC and up will be effective use of your time.
Although I will say a T2 salvager is a must on a marauder (even if it does take 14 days )
Thing is if you're looking at it from a min/max perpective, salvage is some 3% of the income tops. If it's any more you're losing out on everything else, meaning you're not maxing. Basically, this is the opposite end of minerals are free mentality where time spent not maximizing income is time spent losing isk. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 641088
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.20 22:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: NoNah Thing is if you're looking at it from a min/max perpective, salvage is some 3% of the income tops. If it's any more you're losing out on everything else, meaning you're not maxing. Basically, this is the opposite end of minerals are free mentality where time spent not maximizing income is time spent losing isk.
Losing POTENTIAL ISK - which directly equates to less time doing what it is that you like to do (assuming that this is not run missions).
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.05.20 23:31:00 -
[38]
I will be interested tyo see what happens with level 5's. I dont loot an salvage anymore cos its mroe financual to blitz missions. But level 5's provide 50 mil in loot conversion. Now that people are understanding the rattlesnake, lvl5's are no longer the soul haven of max skill Carrier pilots.
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Seishi Maru
Organization for Nuclear Research
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Posted - 2010.05.21 02:34:00 -
[39]
If ccp introduces tags as they described, with about the value that hose droped by navy ships of same size (but not a 100% drop rate, contrary to navy ships) , then we will have STILL reason to loot in marauders.
So CCP can avoid this being a HUGE nerf to game by. For each 10 modulesmeta 0 that used to drop and they remove from loot table, add 5 tags of GOOD quality.... 2 meta 4 items 1 meta 3 and 1 meta 2 and 1 meta 1 item.
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Sarah Norbulk
Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.21 04:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Von Kapiche Hm, someone bought up a lot of faction hulls, eh? :)
As a serious question; how much faster *is* a Nightmare than a Paladin on suitable rat types? having flown a Mach for months I'm a little underwhelmed by the NM which was a stepping stone to a Paladin ( and incidentally Golem ), but if it's 20% faster than a Paladin I won't bother. 5% though, I'll take the extra armour plates instead.
The magic of the Nightmare is the ability to use t2 tachs with fation multifrequency out to 45+ km with good tracking. It is noticably faster than any of its couter parts and is easily the highest DPS PvE boat out there with the possible exception of the Torp Golem. It also can track most frig rats in to about 24km and most cruisers as close as 14km, something a Torp Golem has issues with. Your looking at a 10% DPS increase with far better range and tracking over a Paladin with a Nightmare.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.21 06:29:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Sarah Norbulk
The magic of the Nightmare is the ability to use t2 tachs with fation multifrequency out to 45+ km with good tracking. It is noticably faster than any of its couter parts and is easily the highest DPS PvE boat out there with the possible exception of the Torp Golem. It also can track most frig rats in to about 24km and most cruisers as close as 14km, something a Torp Golem has issues with. Your looking at a 10% DPS increase with far better range and tracking over a Paladin with a Nightmare.
It seems Amarr has a pretty clearcut victor...I just can't make up my mind between the Mach and the Vargur, however. On the assumption you have both BS skills at V, that Vargur still has 30% better tracking to the Mach's +10% DPS.
Combine that with the facts that a Vargur will usually have a tracking computer in the mid that can boost the tracking further, and I wonder if the ships are still essentially on par even with reduced drops post patch. I can't quite quantify the difference, but I imagine a 30% swing in tracking is significant in damage application.
Or maybe I'm just a Vargur fanboi and I refuse to admit it...
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.21 06:46:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
It seems Amarr has a pretty clearcut victor...I just can't make up my mind between the Mach and the Vargur, however. On the assumption you have both BS skills at V, that Vargur still has 30% better tracking to the Mach's +10% DPS.
Combine that with the facts that a Vargur will usually have a tracking computer in the mid that can boost the tracking further, and I wonder if the ships are still essentially on par even with reduced drops post patch. I can't quite quantify the difference, but I imagine a 30% swing in tracking is significant in damage application.
Or maybe I'm just a Vargur fanboi and I refuse to admit it...
It's too early to tell, and even then it will likely only be by extensive trial and error and multiple published 'studies'.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Veryez
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Posted - 2010.05.21 08:11:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
It seems Amarr has a pretty clearcut victor...I just can't make up my mind between the Mach and the Vargur, however. On the assumption you have both BS skills at V, that Vargur still has 30% better tracking to the Mach's +10% DPS.
Combine that with the facts that a Vargur will usually have a tracking computer in the mid that can boost the tracking further, and I wonder if the ships are still essentially on par even with reduced drops post patch. I can't quite quantify the difference, but I imagine a 30% swing in tracking is significant in damage application.
Or maybe I'm just a Vargur fanboi and I refuse to admit it...
There's more to like about the vargur than just that, with it's greater calibration points, it's easier to put two t2 rigs on a marauder than on a faction battleship. The vargur has longer targeting range (93k to 77k, and yes I have engaged targets @ that range. The tank on the vargur is normally better than the mach (especially if the mach is setup for max damage). Finally I have found the mission times between them to be very close, with no significant differences.
Also I don't believe this will be the final change in mission drops, CCP simply cannot test this change on sisi as the market there is meaningless. Therefore this change is really being tested on tq. Where will people shift from mission running to mining? Where is the crossover point, that will make mining and hauling more profitable (thus that people shift to it). Will CCP be happy when the cost of zyd and mega goes up by a factor of 2? How about 10? You still will gain a significant amount of loot income by just looting/salvaging the npc BS in missions and as long as there is any iskies to be made there (meta 4 drops are not insignificant), and it doesn't slow you down significantly, the vargur will continue to shine over the mach. Not to mention wormholes, where the increased tractor range and speed as well as the increased tank of a marauder is a signifant measure.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.21 08:21:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Sarah Norbulk
The magic of the Nightmare is the ability to use t2 tachs with fation multifrequency out to 45+ km with good tracking. It is noticably faster than any of its couter parts and is easily the highest DPS PvE boat out there with the possible exception of the Torp Golem. It also can track most frig rats in to about 24km and most cruisers as close as 14km, something a Torp Golem has issues with. Your looking at a 10% DPS increase with far better range and tracking over a Paladin with a Nightmare.
It seems Amarr has a pretty clearcut victor...I just can't make up my mind between the Mach and the Vargur, however. On the assumption you have both BS skills at V, that Vargur still has 30% better tracking to the Mach's +10% DPS.
Combine that with the facts that a Vargur will usually have a tracking computer in the mid that can boost the tracking further, and I wonder if the ships are still essentially on par even with reduced drops post patch. I can't quite quantify the difference, but I imagine a 30% swing in tracking is significant in damage application.
Or maybe I'm just a Vargur fanboi and I refuse to admit it...
The Vargur's selectable damage types are a pretty big deal. In terms of effective DPS, it's way ahead of the nightmare vs Angels and Guristas.
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Chakarr
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Posted - 2010.05.21 08:43:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Malcanis The Vargur's selectable damage types are a pretty big deal. In terms of effective DPS, it's way ahead of the nightmare vs Angels and Guristas.
Yes this too I forgot to mention although the Mach obviously has the same choices - the three main high damage ammo cover pretty much everything you will face in minny space...the increased lock range and target count makes a big difference too as sometimes you can be killing stuff faster than you can lock it and with a two TE in the lows and a TC in the mids you can easily pop frigs out to 90k+, I rarely find myself using drones anymore against anything except angels with thier pesky high speed intys...
Perhaps the loot drops being changed/reduced is not the issue, more that the Paladin and more so the Kronos are just too weak compared to their faction counterparts and this coming change pushes them over the threshold of being usefull...? I haven't flown any serious mission ship other than the Vargur but on paper it seems to seriously outclass the other marauders since the projectile buff....
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xplosiv
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Posted - 2010.05.21 09:00:00 -
[46]
the paladin effectively puts out a dps of over 1000, this is not far of the varger(?) however the V does have alot more effective range. it can hit that 1000dps at over 60km compared to the 35 of a paladin. On the oter hand the tank on the V is not half as caps stable and altho is about as good as the paladins it will not last as long. The real diffrence comes in the Vargs abaility to change dammage type and this is where the paladin suffers. In short the paladin requires the web bonus be swaped to a fall off or range bonus. to make it effective at 60km. with scorch.
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ThaMa Gebir
Gallente SUECHTLER Inc. THE-FEDERATION
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Posted - 2010.05.21 09:33:00 -
[47]
Edited by: ThaMa Gebir on 21/05/2010 09:35:25 Possible fix for marauders?
No flaming needed. Just an idea I had. Probably has been mentioned before...
EDIT: Yes before anyone says anything I realise this has nothing to do with loot drops etc.
So as said, no need for the flames. ----------------------------
Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........
Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
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Seishi Maru
Organization for Nuclear Research
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Posted - 2010.05.21 11:43:00 -
[48]
Well, I had a naightmare and a paladin and the mission time with nightmare was NOT significantly faster than paladin. The tracking was mostly irrelevant on MOST Missions since blood raiders do not rush close in like angels or serpentis. I at most have to maneuver usign my AB 2-3 times per HOUR running missions to face a difficult tracking target.
Sure the nightmare would not need these nevigation corrections. But its not a big deal.
Also against blood raiders being an armor tanker is easier so you can use EVEN less tank.
Finnaly Cargo.... With the paladin I can simply use only a cap injector as source og my juice and carry 800 charges and go replenishing them during mission ( hello tractor beams ). That allows me to be VERY agresssive with my other modules choices.
On overall I think the paladin and nightmare are VERY balanced even with meta 0 vanish.
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.21 11:51:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Von Kapiche on 21/05/2010 11:54:38
Originally by: xplosiv the paladin effectively puts out a dps of over 1000, this is not far of the varger(?) however the V does have alot more effective range. it can hit that 1000dps at over 60km compared to the 35 of a paladin. On the oter hand the tank on the V is not half as caps stable and altho is about as good as the paladins it will not last as long. The real diffrence comes in the Vargs abaility to change dammage type and this is where the paladin suffers. In short the paladin requires the web bonus be swaped to a fall off or range bonus. to make it effective at 60km. with scorch.
Don't need a cap stable tank with 1100 dps, really ;)
I did wonder why the Paladin didn't have the Apoc's range bonus. Would that make it some crazy OP sniper?
Edit: I run my NM tank entirely on cap boosters. Must admit to being underwhelmed by it so far, but booster+3 hardeners+cap booster works fine on that boat too.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.05.21 12:28:00 -
[50]
Nightmare wont be "significantly" faster than pally if you gank fit both of them /4x heatsink and 3x te or tc/ - just because you dont need that tracking bonus 90% of the time. So dont count with 10-15% better mission times.
Also i doubt that macha/vargur can be faster than pally/nm vs em weak npcs - its simple - 977dps at 47+48 > 1050 at 4+69.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2010.05.21 12:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: xplosiv it [Vargur] can hit that 1000dps at over 60km compared to the 35 of a paladin.
No, it can't do that at all, wtf are you on about? Falloff is not the same as optimal, in case you didn't know.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.21 17:57:00 -
[52]
So...a couple of things:
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Also i doubt that macha/vargur can be faster than pally/nm vs em weak npcs - its simple - 977dps at 47+48 > 1050 at 4+69.
I completely agree with this. The Vargur mulches Angels and the Pally mulches Bloods, but neither does it as quickly if you switch the targets around.
Originally by: ThaMa Gebir
Possible fix for marauders?
Reducing the Turret Sig Resolution is novel, but in the damage formula it has the exact same effect as a tracking bonus. The way the formula is set up, a bonus to one is equivalent to a bonus to the other.
Which brings me to...
Originally by: Seishi Maru The tracking was mostly irrelevant on MOST Missions since blood raiders do not rush close in like angels or serpentis.
This I have trouble believing, for the very reason I listed above. Regardless of where they orbit, a tracking bonus helps you hit small ships more accurately. And if we're realistic, there are far more small ships in L4s than there are BSs.
ACs have three and a third times better tracking than Tachs, and having extra tracking still leads to faster mission times. It's just harder to put a number to than DPS is.
But...
Originally by: Liang Nuren
It's too early to tell, and even then it will likely only be by extensive trial and error and multiple published 'studies'.
-Liang
And sadly, I think this is the case. Just I'll just keep scratching my head until I man up and start doing some proper tests after the patch.
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Seishi Maru
Organization for Nuclear Research
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Posted - 2010.05.21 23:27:00 -
[53]
When i shoot at small rats I do it when they are at 50-60 km. And You can track well enough that range. Enough to hit even a scratch hit. .. that with tachyons is enough to pop a frigate.
The frigates that evade that go to drone to kill list. Very rarely the frigs are the last things on a mission I am finishing.
Take mission like the blockade for example.. there is ZERO trackign issues on a mission as such. Even worlds collide there is zero tracking issues. because all targets start UNDER their orbit programmed range. So they go AWAY from you.. at ZERO transversal. Just leave drones eating the frigs.
THe situatiosn a little maneuverign cannto compensate.. are situatiosn too hard even for a nightmare to track anyway.
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Nica Guye
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Posted - 2010.05.22 10:10:00 -
[54]
Hopefully not dropping Meta 0 items will make mining more profitable
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Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.22 10:43:00 -
[55]
give them 8 weapon hardpoints with %100 bonus
btw, i only salvage large wrecks and i still earn tons of easy money with my varg/golem.
IMHO whatever they change the game, the sandbox system will always find a way to adapt so dont worry about it
------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :) |
Khin'charin
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.05.22 14:52:00 -
[56]
Mining will never yield more profit because of any mission loot changes.
Recycled Mission loot is NOT, and has never been, 40% of the "mineral faucet" or whatever to call it.
The only thing that has been keeping mineral prices up, is platinum insurance values.
With a new lower insurance exchange rate, mineral basket value will go even lower.
Mineral basket value will keep sinking as long as you can AFK-bot a Hulk 23/7 and still make more ISK per month, than what you payed for the PLEX on that account, food for the sweatshop owners family and electric bill of a 300W computer.
There's your new mineral basket floor really...
- I run L4's in my rifter |
Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.05.22 15:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Khin'charin Mining will never yield more profit because of any mission loot changes.
Recycled Mission loot is NOT, and has never been, 40% of the "mineral faucet" or whatever to call it.
The only thing that has been keeping mineral prices up, is platinum insurance values.
With a new lower insurance exchange rate, mineral basket value will go even lower.
Mineral basket value will keep sinking as long as you can AFK-bot a Hulk 23/7 and still make more ISK per month, than what you payed for the PLEX on that account, food for the sweatshop owners family and electric bill of a 300W computer.
There's your new mineral basket floor really...
Meta 0(used for T2 production) production uses minerals. Missions won't produce Meta 0 items anymore. Hence, Meta 0 production will pick up and more minerals will be used.
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Khin'charin
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.05.22 15:53:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Khin''charin on 22/05/2010 15:59:10
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: Khin'charin Mining will never yield more profit because of any mission loot changes.
Recycled Mission loot is NOT, and has never been, 40% of the "mineral faucet" or whatever to call it.
The only thing that has been keeping mineral prices up, is platinum insurance values.
With a new lower insurance exchange rate, mineral basket value will go even lower.
Mineral basket value will keep sinking as long as you can AFK-bot a Hulk 23/7 and still make more ISK per month, than what you payed for the PLEX on that account, food for the sweatshop owners family and electric bill of a 300W computer.
There's your new mineral basket floor really...
Meta 0(used for T2 production) production uses minerals. Missions won't produce Meta 0 items anymore. Hence, Meta 0 production will pick up and more minerals will be used.
So, you think T2 production use more minerals (in form of T1 mods) than is currently being used by Insurance Fraud Operations atm?
And that there will be no surplus minerals from mining on the market, post Tyrannis?
Edit: I hardly think that the amount of minerals comming from mission Meta 0 item drops, even starts to compare to how much minerals are injected by 23/7 AFK Hulks.
Nothing will change here, unless mining changes. The force is strong within the ISK farmers.
- I run L4's in my rifter |
Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.05.22 18:05:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Torpir Lee on 22/05/2010 18:05:38
Originally by: Khin'charin Edited by: Khin''charin on 22/05/2010 15:59:10
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: Khin'charin Mining will never yield more profit because of any mission loot changes.
Recycled Mission loot is NOT, and has never been, 40% of the "mineral faucet" or whatever to call it.
The only thing that has been keeping mineral prices up, is platinum insurance values.
With a new lower insurance exchange rate, mineral basket value will go even lower.
Mineral basket value will keep sinking as long as you can AFK-bot a Hulk 23/7 and still make more ISK per month, than what you payed for the PLEX on that account, food for the sweatshop owners family and electric bill of a 300W computer.
There's your new mineral basket floor really...
Meta 0(used for T2 production) production uses minerals. Missions won't produce Meta 0 items anymore. Hence, Meta 0 production will pick up and more minerals will be used.
So, you think T2 production use more minerals (in form of T1 mods) than is currently being used by Insurance Fraud Operations atm?
And that there will be no surplus minerals from mining on the market, post Tyrannis?
Edit: I hardly think that the amount of minerals comming from mission Meta 0 item drops, even starts to compare to how much minerals are injected by 23/7 AFK Hulks.
Nothing will change here, unless mining changes. The force is strong within the ISK farmers.
Minerals aren't coming from the Meta 0 items. Meta 0 items from missions are used instead of Meta 0 items from production for T2 productions. When you have no Meta 0 items coming from missions, you need more minerals. More people will mine because of this, but empire can only support so many people, and the extra minerals won't happen overnight. Miners will have to adapt.
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Khin'charin
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.05.23 15:24:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Torpir Lee Minerals aren't coming from the Meta 0 items. Meta 0 items from missions are used instead of Meta 0 items from production for T2 productions.
Bullcrap. I haven't met one single mission runner that uses their Meta 0 drops for T2 production. Are you telling me that most mission runners sell their Meta 0 items to T2 producers rather than just reprocess it once every month, then sell the minerals to highest bidder?
It just doesnt seem reasonable for any mission runner to do what you suggest. Especially around most mission hubs where Meta 0 item value = mineral build cost.
-Khin
I run L4's in my rifter
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